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This is why everyone hates smurfs

"Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.

[Chapters who do not emulate the Ultramarines] are aberrants; chapters who, through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness, eschew the Codex Astartes in favor of other structural and combat doctrines. Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it. Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters."

- Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer, Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition, p. 25.

"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions who have severe mutations [Blood Angels] or stolid stubbornness [Space Wolves and Dark Angels] all Space Marine Chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege."

- Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer, in the White Dwarf interview celebrating the release of Codex: Space Marines.

SALAMANDERS DONT NEED NO CODEX SON!

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
People don't look deep enough, and assume that because they are the paragons of the codex astartes, they are therefore the 'best'. What a lot of people don't realise is that this is as much a curse as a blessing, as if they encounter something not part of that doctrine, they are out of their depth. For example, in the Heresy they took a beating at Calth as they simply did not know how to fight other Marines.

The y are also a monument to the failure of the Imperium. In same the system as a whole is almost the antithesis of what the Emperor wanted, the codex has become a dogmatic doctrine. When Gulliman wrote it he wanted it to be a guideline, not a religion, and would despair at what it has become.

This is actually about 100% incorrect, so I would suggest disregarding it.

Calth happened before the publishing of the Codex. However, even if it hadn't been, it would have been irrelevant. The Ultramarines took a beating at Calth because they had no reason to suspect a treacherous sneak attack from fellow Space Marines. But anyone who has read Know No Fear and the older IA:WB article knows that the Ultramarines, once they recovered from the initial shock, pasted the Word Bearers.

Exactly, they had no reason to fear because the possibility of it had not even entered their mind and didn't know how to react when it did . Strikes me as pretty arrogant and short sighted to not even consider the possibility of having to fight enemies equal to yourself. Yes, they recovered and won, but not after taking one hell of a smashing in opening waves. And I'm aware the codex was not written, but the Ultras were still supposed to be the best trained force and prepared for anything.

The Tyranids also didn't appear in the Codex, and yet the Ultramarines basically were the principal effort in stopping two entire Hive Fleets so far.

Largely because they were automatically on the front line given the invasion route. I imagine if any other Chapter had been in their place they would have duke just as well. The second time, they also had the motivation of revenge for the losses at Macragge, and a for of veterans specialised against Nids.

The Codex Astartes get woefully misrepresented by fans, and it's not entirely their fault because some of these ideas are spread by goofballs who don't know what they're doing like Graham McNeill, lol. The original references to the Codex Astartes as being restrictive talk about the organizational and recruiting directives being strict. As in 10 companies of 100 guys, with a guideline for how to recruit and when to perform implantations, etc. When the original fluff talks about the tactics and strategy portion of the codex, the language talks about it being thousands of pages with advice on how to fight wars on basically any terrain, any environment, and against any kind of enemy. It's not some kind of idiotic "If A, then B" instruction manual for dummies like it occasionally gets written to be by people who don't know what they're talking about.

I appreciate that it is not a 'rulebook' for combat, but the fact remains that, of something new does come up, the Ultras will perhaps be less prepared to face it than a chapter more willing to adapt in tactics. It's also the case that, like the imperium as a whole, what something was intended as and what it had become are polar opposites.

Take, for example, the Space Marine video game. In that, Leandros maintains that the codex advises against jumping from a Thunderhawk into enemy fire without support, Titus does it anyway and it works, but this disregard for the doctrine immediately makes Leandros suspicious of his captain. Later, Titus is exposed to the Warp, and not corrupted by it. Leandros immediately asked he therefore must be a heretic, because the codex says so. How is that blind subscription with no room for doubt anything other than a weakness and a flaw?

The same could be said for the way in which Ventrus is exiled for winning a battle the wrong way.

Case in point, in 2nd Edition, army commanders had a Strategy Rating, from 1-6. Only two characters had a 6. The Dark Angels Chapter Master, and Calgar, CM of the UM. Calgar was defined as one of the greatest tacticians in the Imperium. I mean, if the Ultramarines were hardcore followers of the Codex, but following the Codex was a bad thing, and yet the Ultramarines Chapter Master is one of the greatest tacticians alive, imagine how bad everyone else must be.

I'd say Calgar is an exception, Sicarius too. Both are mentioned as occasionally interpreting the codex rather than dogmatically following it, which is why perhaps Calgar favours Sicarius over Agemenn, who looks down on the latter for playing so loose with the rules. Both of them are perhaps wishing up to the danger of blindly following the codex.

Point being, arrogance, pride and short-sightedness are just as much of a flaw to the ultras as the Black Rage is to the Blood Angels or the Canis Helix is to the Wolves. The only difference is the flew is psychological, not genetic, so not so obvious.

Paradigm wrote:
Exactly, they had no reason to fear because the possibility of it had not even entered their mind and didn't know how to react when it did . Strikes me as pretty arrogant and short sighted to not even consider the possibility of having to fight enemies equal to yourself. Yes, they recovered and won, but not after taking one hell of a smashing in opening waves. And I'm aware the codex was not written, but the Ultras were still supposed to be the best trained force and prepared for anything.

You realize that this happened to all of the loyalists at Istvaan III, and again to all of the loyalists at Istvaan V.

Everyone in 30K was arrogant and short-sighted. The nine traitor legions were fools lured by the false promises of Chaos. The Dark Angels for collapsing in on themselves. Magnus for screwing around with the Warp. You can just go on and on about hubris and how it screwed over the Space Marine Legions. Trying to single out the Ultramarines means you've just got an axe to grind and you're trying too hard. Well, either that or you don't know the fluff very well. I'm simply trying to make sure that a new player gets the nonsense filtered out.

Like I said. If the Ultramarines are so bad, and they're the best the Imperium has to offer, how much worse does that make everyone else?


You have to remember all of the oft-written about chapters have some bad and poorly written fluff. With the Space Wolves, is pretty much everything. For the Ultramarines, their bad fluff usually comes when a writer with no experience and no research into warfighting tries to come up with a cheap (and usually nonsensical) narrative hook about the Codex Astartes.

The idea of "flaws" gets horridly misused in 40K by people not well versed in how characterization actually works. The Canis Helix isn't a "flaw", it's a plot device. The Black Rage isn't a flaw. It's a plot device. These are just simple tropes developed by amateur storytellers. The kinds of "flaws" that (good) storytellers refer to are not jackhammers to the face like "We are doomed to eventually go craaaaaazy". Let's use John McClain for example, as he's an easily recognizable action movie character. The audience identifies with McClain because he's got a fairly "normal" life. A troubled marriage, problems at work, and he's vulnerable, but fights through adversity to win the day. If 40K fans wrote him, McClain would have impotency and terminal cancer, or uncontrollable fits of rage, or a dark past as a heroin-addicted gay-for-pay adult film star.

The reality is that Space Marines have flaws built into them. You don't have to invent silly narrative hooks. Space Marines are arrogant, xenophobic, narrow-minded, sociopaths lacking most semblances of basic empathy. Even the nice ones like the Salamanders, lol. They can't fear, sure. They also can't love, and can't understand human motivations, and routinely cast aside innocent lives based on a brainwashed sense of greater purpose. Searching for a "flaw" for the Ultramarines is silly.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Like I said. If the Ultramarines are so bad, and they're the best the Imperium has to offer, how much worse does that make everyone else?

But it feels so forced and over the top!
Just read Damnos (pg 24) about Sicarius and how he beats a Transcendent C'tan.
It's so damn ridiculous it's not funny any more.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Paradigm wrote:
Exactly, they had no reason to fear because the possibility of it had not even entered their mind and didn't know how to react when it did . Strikes me as pretty arrogant and short sighted to not even consider the possibility of having to fight enemies equal to yourself. Yes, they recovered and won, but not after taking one hell of a smashing in opening waves. And I'm aware the codex was not written, but the Ultras were still supposed to be the best trained force and prepared for anything.

You realize that this happened to all of the loyalists at Istvaan III, and again to all of the loyalists at Istvaan V.

Everyone in 30K was arrogant and short-sighted. The nine traitor legions were fools lured by the false promises of Chaos. The Dark Angels for collapsing in on themselves. Magnus for screwing around with the Warp. You can just go on and on about hubris and how it screwed over the Space Marine Legions. Trying to single out the Ultramarines means you've just got an axe to grind and you're trying too hard. Well, either that or you don't know the fluff very well. I'm simply trying to make sure that a new player gets the nonsense filtered out.

No axe to grind at all, in actual fact the way I see the ultramarines as outlined in my last few posts is why I live them so much. As much as they are held as both the champions of humanity and of the list-human, they are unable to fulfill either role fully for the reasons you point out below. They are, as I see them, a monument to the grand irony of the Imperium that being 'the best' in fact means you are a bunch of xenophobic, psychopathic, uncaring, brutal and dogmatic monsters. I felt admit I do put a different spin on some of the fluff to reach this conclusion, and have no intent to try and decieve a new player, just thought people may find a different view interesting.

You have to remember all of the oft-written about chapters have some bad and poorly written fluff. With the Space Wolves, is pretty much everything. For the Ultramarines, their bad fluff usually comes when a writer with no experience and no research into warfighting tries to come up with a cheap (and usually nonsensical) narrative hook about the Codex Astartes.

The idea of "flaws" gets horridly misused in 40K by people not well versed in how characterization actually works. The Canis Helix isn't a "flaw", it's a plot device. The Black Rage isn't a flaw. It's a plot device. These are just simple tropes developed by amateur storytellers. The kinds of "flaws" that (good) storytellers refer to are not jackhammers to the face like "We are doomed to eventually go craaaaaazy". Let's use John McClain for example, as he's an easily recognizable action movie character. The audience identifies with McClain because he's got a fairly "normal" life. A troubled marriage, problems at work, and he's vulnerable, but fights through adversity to win the day. If 40K fans wrote him, McClain would have impotency and terminal cancer, or uncontrollable fits of rage, or a dark past as a heroin-addicted gay-for-pay adult film star.

True enough many ways, but this is 40k everything is turned up to eleven, so nothing short of being doomed to extinction like the BA, utterly hampered by fear of being exposed like DA or too free to act freely like the wolves would work. When dealing with such a huge scale, things have to be a bit less subtle, and reading about individual characters still leaves plenty of room for personal, subtle and varied weaknesses. In a way, the description of a Chapter has to be a hyperbolic stereotype to work at that level, defining as it does a thousand per human warriors.

The reality is that Space Marines have flaws built into them. You don't have to invent silly narrative hooks. Space Marines are arrogant, xenophobic, narrow-minded, sociopaths lacking most semblances of basic empathy. Even the nice ones like the Salamanders, lol. They can't fear, sure. They also can't love, and can't understand human motivations, and routinely cast aside innocent lives based on a brainwashed sense of greater purpose. Searching for a "flaw" for the Ultramarines is silly.

This is all true, what I was saying is that, in a way, due to being the 'ultimate' Chapter, Ultras are perhaps more exemplary of these traits than their counterparts, and as such, are just as flawed as the other chapters. Without that unique or at least exaggerated flaw, they appear as perfect marines and lack a defining character, which seems to rankle people just as much as the alternative.

Kangodo wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Like I said. If the Ultramarines are so bad, and they're the best the Imperium has to offer, how much worse does that make everyone else?

But it feels so forced and over the top!
Just read Damnos (pg 24) about Sicarius and how he beats a Transcendent C'tan.
It's so damn ridiculous it's not funny any more.

Written by Phil Kelly! New writer of the Spiritual Liege apparently.

Kangodo wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Like I said. If the Ultramarines are so bad, and they're the best the Imperium has to offer, how much worse does that make everyone else?

But it feels so forced and over the top!
Just read Damnos (pg 24) about Sicarius and how he beats a Transcendent C'tan.
It's so damn ridiculous it's not funny any more.

As opposed to the Blood Angels cited in your signature, whose Chief Librarian choked a demon prince to death, lol.

Doing ridiculous things is pretty much part and parcel to Space Marine special character fluff.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Like I said. If the Ultramarines are so bad, and they're the best the Imperium has to offer, how much worse does that make everyone else?

But it feels so forced and over the top!
Just read Damnos (pg 24) about Sicarius and how he beats a Transcendent C'tan.
It's so damn ridiculous it's not funny any more.

As opposed to the Blood Angels cited in your signature, whose Chief Librarian choked a demon prince to death, lol.

Doing ridiculous things is pretty much part and parcel to Space Marine special character fluff.

Isn't there some SM that when knew killed a DP with a knife? Or we could get even better and just go for Draigo

Backfire wrote:

Matthew wrote:
I have lately been seeing that alot of people don't really like, or should I say hate, the Ultramarines.
Why? I think they're cool, not too overused, and they're the Space marines!
If we have any Ultramarines haters, please answer my question!

Ultramarines were heavily overused in 4th and especially 5th edition, when they were in starter set and as said, quite fanboyish Codex: Space Marines. Though in fairness, in that book only fluff was fanboyish, rules weren't anywhere so OTT.

It's not so bad anymore, when Dark Angels are the new poster boys.

Yeah, but Dark Angels lore is actually interesting to read.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:

Take, for example, the Space Marine video game. In that, Leandros maintains that the codex advises against jumping from a Thunderhawk into enemy fire without support, Titus does it anyway and it works, but this disregard for the doctrine immediately makes Leandros suspicious of his captain. Later, Titus is exposed to the Warp, and not corrupted by it. Leandros immediately asked he therefore must be a heretic, because the codex says so. How is that blind subscription with no room for doubt anything other than a weakness and a flaw?

For as much crap as the video game was/got, the few scenes/subplot where this was featured actually intrigued me and stood out as pretty good character development. Sidonus pretty much faded into the background, but the back and forth between Titus and Leandros was pretty interesting.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Ultramarines were heavily overused in 4th and especially 5th edition, when they were in starter set and as said, quite fanboyish Codex: Space Marines. Though in fairness, in that book only fluff was fanboyish, rules weren't anywhere so OTT.

It's not so bad anymore, when Dark Angels are the new poster boys.

Yeah, but Dark Angels lore is actually interesting to read.

DA are more characterful, but I don't mind Ultramarines. To have special flavours, you need one plain vanilla to compare them for and set the standard. It's just that 4th/5th edition 'Ultramarines everywhere' just made everyone allergic to blue.

I wish that Black Templars were in the next starter. Plenty of opportunity there for imposing sculpts and visuals.

Matthew wrote:
I have lately been seeing that alot of people don't really like, or should I say hate, the Ultramarines.
Why? I think they're cool, not too overused, and they're the Space marines!
If we have any Ultramarines haters, please answer my question!

I'm going to list my reasons:

1) All mary sues.
2) No personality
3) "Rigid Adherence" to doctrine
4) Supposedly perfect at everything
5) Bloody everywhere, I can't see anything to do with 40k without there being at least one Ultramarine in it somewhere.
6) Was my first army when I started, and I grew sick of them as per the points above, which annoyed me no end.
7) My regular opponent is a UM player, and I have never once beaten him.
8) Bloody Ultramarines.

Matthew wrote:
they're the Space marines!

Mainly this.
Other reasons including (but not limited to)
- they are bunch of Mary Sues
- Matthew Ward
- the ridiculous idea that they are Someron above other SM chapters
- their lack of identity, they have simply no speciality unlike every single other Chapter
- the fact that they were basicly the only Legion who didn't do anything
- Guilliman wasn't that bad, but ever single following of him has decided that Codex Astartes is more important than your brains
- and seriously, no-one wants to be an Ultramarines except for Ultramarines. And no-one (seriously) seems Marines Calgar as their spiritual liege except for Ultramarines.

 throwoff wrote:
I just really hate blue.

Honestly I have no other reason for disliking the Ultramarines

Do you, now? Well I have something unfortunate to point out about your avatar...

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Like I said. If the Ultramarines are so bad, and they're the best the Imperium has to offer, how much worse does that make everyone else?

But it feels so forced and over the top!
Just read Damnos (pg 24) about Sicarius and how he beats a Transcendent C'tan.
It's so damn ridiculous it's not funny any more.

As opposed to the Blood Angels cited in your signature, whose Chief Librarian choked a demon prince to death, lol.

Doing ridiculous things is pretty much part and parcel to Space Marine special character fluff.

But the Ultramarines have more ridiculous stuff than the rest of the Chapters put together. People love the Lamenters, Crimson Fists etc right? That's because they have bad stuff happen to them yet don't back down. The Ultramarines just don't ever seem to have the same kind of bad stuff happen to them. They're too Mary Sue.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Like I said. If the Ultramarines are so bad, and they're the best the Imperium has to offer, how much worse does that make everyone else?

But it feels so forced and over the top!
Just read Damnos (pg 24) about Sicarius and how he beats a Transcendent C'tan.
It's so damn ridiculous it's not funny any more.

As opposed to the Blood Angels cited in your signature, whose Chief Librarian choked a demon prince to death, lol.

Doing ridiculous things is pretty much part and parcel to Space Marine special character fluff.

But the Ultramarines have more ridiculous stuff than the rest of the Chapters put together. People love the Lamenters, Crimson Fists etc right? That's because they have bad stuff happen to them yet don't back down. The Ultramarines just don't ever seem to have the same kind of bad stuff happen to them. They're too Mary Sue.

Uh..What are you talking about? The Ultramarines lose just as often as other first chapters (Not on par with CF or Lamenters, but those kinda got screwed hard). They lost their entire first company to Tyranids and lost a number of their artifacts to Minotaurs, not to mention the other tyranid losses they've taken.

The only real Mary Sue Space Marine faction with no real losses is Space Wolves, who can gut Grand Masters and Inquisition and get bombarded for weeks on end by IG and Sisters and end up coming out ahead. The "Strategic" faction who will fire artillery, then rush their vehicles up front, open the hatch just to smell/watch the fireworks up close.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Like I said. If the Ultramarines are so bad, and they're the best the Imperium has to offer, how much worse does that make everyone else?

But it feels so forced and over the top!
Just read Damnos (pg 24) about Sicarius and how he beats a Transcendent C'tan.
It's so damn ridiculous it's not funny any more.

As opposed to the Blood Angels cited in your signature, whose Chief Librarian choked a demon prince to death, lol.

Doing ridiculous things is pretty much part and parcel to Space Marine special character fluff.

But the Ultramarines have more ridiculous stuff than the rest of the Chapters put together. People love the Lamenters, Crimson Fists etc right? That's because they have bad stuff happen to them yet don't back down. The Ultramarines just don't ever seem to have the same kind of bad stuff happen to them. They're too Mary Sue.

And heck, even when the are in a bad spot, they win simply because "Ultramarines. Ofc they fething won".

Example:
1) Ultramarines are tasked with holding a gate against an Ork horde. Calgar makes the "Tactically Sound and totes Codex Approved" move of keeping his brothahs behind the gate, while he stood alone outside of it, against millions of assaulting orks. He proceeds to hold it for a night and a day until reinforcements arrive.

2) Tyranids get over to Ultramar, and overrun it, but they lose because Calgar is so good at Spess-Muhreening that he had no trouble getting past the ENTIRE hive fleet, and to the biggest ship there, and himself kills the Norn Queen.

3) The Avatar of Khaine dies like a wuss to Calgar.

4) In the 5E codex, it is stated that there are multiple occasions wherein Calgar was incapacitated, and survives because his bros-in-blue keep sacrificing themselves for him.

1) Ultramarines are tasked with holding a gate against an Ork horde. Calgar makes the "Tactically Sound and totes Codex Approved" move of keeping his brothahs behind the gate, while he stood alone outside of it, against millions of assaulting orks. He proceeds to hold it for a night and a day until reinforcements arrive.

This sort of thing is honestly common, does nobody seem to remember the Phoenix Lord Mugen Ra who took on an entire splinter fleet by himself on a planet?

Honestly I'd just chalk the hate up to Bias.

3) The Avatar of Khaine dies like a wuss to Calgar.

Avatar's are just the universal punching bag.

 Selym wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Like I said. If the Ultramarines are so bad, and they're the best the Imperium has to offer, how much worse does that make everyone else?

But it feels so forced and over the top!
Just read Damnos (pg 24) about Sicarius and how he beats a Transcendent C'tan.
It's so damn ridiculous it's not funny any more.

As opposed to the Blood Angels cited in your signature, whose Chief Librarian choked a demon prince to death, lol.

Doing ridiculous things is pretty much part and parcel to Space Marine special character fluff.

But the Ultramarines have more ridiculous stuff than the rest of the Chapters put together. People love the Lamenters, Crimson Fists etc right? That's because they have bad stuff happen to them yet don't back down. The Ultramarines just don't ever seem to have the same kind of bad stuff happen to them. They're too Mary Sue.

And heck, even when the are in a bad spot, they win simply because "Ultramarines. Ofc they fething won".

Example:
1) Ultramarines are tasked with holding a gate against an Ork horde. Calgar makes the "Tactically Sound and totes Codex Approved" move of keeping his brothahs behind the gate, while he stood alone outside of it, against millions of assaulting orks. He proceeds to hold it for a night and a day until reinforcements arrive.

2) Tyranids get over to Ultramar, and overrun it, but they lose because Calgar is so good at Spess-Muhreening that he had no trouble getting past the ENTIRE hive fleet, and to the biggest ship there, and himself kills the Norn Queen.

3) The Avatar of Khaine dies like a wuss to Calgar.

4) In the 5E codex, it is stated that there are multiple occasions wherein Calgar was incapacitated, and survives because his bros-in-blue keep sacrificing themselves for him.

1) Mephiston did the same, without support, against millions of Tyranids.

2) Or more like Calgar's a good commander, and the Ultramarines, combined with PDF, Navy, Inquisition, and other Muhreens, push them back.

3) Oh no, that totes never happened in fluff before.

4) How is that Mary Sue-ish?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

1) Ultramarines are tasked with holding a gate against an Ork horde. Calgar makes the "Tactically Sound and totes Codex Approved" move of keeping his brothahs behind the gate, while he stood alone outside of it, against millions of assaulting orks. He proceeds to hold it for a night and a day until reinforcements arrive.

This sort of thing is honestly common, does nobody seem to remember the Phoenix Lord Mugen Ra who took on an entire splinter fleet by himself on a planet?

Honestly I'd just chalk the hate up to Bias.

Quite. Same goes for Mat Ward hate, too. "It's written by Mat Ward, thus it's bad and not canon!"

Same reason people hate all Mary Sues, because they're just made to be fantasy-bait for people who haven't figured out that flaws make for a good literary character.

I can have Bjorn the Fell-Handed, a battle weary ancient left behind when his beloved leader left him behind to hold the fort, now regarded as the wisest of his number despite his personal doubts about whether he has truly become strong enough to fight by his primarch's side...

Or I can have Calgar. Who is SUCH A BADASS GUYS because he has two power fists! Isn't that AWESOME! He killed the biggest most awesome thing in your codex and your codex and your codex because he's the coolest best most perfect space marine that ever space marined!

Ultramarines or Red Scorpions?

Both follow the Codex Astartes, but one of these chapters is the most zealot in following the doctrine to the point of insanity.

If you said Red Scorpions you'd be right.

Same reason people hate all Mary Sues, because they're just made to be fantasy-bait for people who haven't figured out that flaws make for a good literary character.

I can have Bjorn the Fell-Handed, a battle weary ancient left behind when his beloved leader left him behind to hold the fort, now regarded as the wisest of his number despite his personal doubts about whether he has truly become strong enough to fight by his primarch's side...

Or I can have Calgar. Who is SUCH A BADASS GUYS because he has two power fists! Isn't that AWESOME! He killed the biggest most awesome thing in your codex and your codex and your codex because he's the coolest best most perfect space marine that ever space marined!

The reason I don't care for Ultramarines is because they're just so bland. A lot of 40k fiction gets ruined in part because it focuses on the poster boys, who end up being portrayed as just the most boring, generic action heroes (see Ultramarines: The Movie and Space Marine). Put simply, they are given all of the attention, but are almost always portrayed as an exceedingly bland chapter, which is just grating when there are so many other flavourful chapters and races out there which deserve some attention.

I remember reading about ultramarine fluff when they got beaten by necron and the psychic backlash on the empire was so big that whole systems were going heretical and rebelions were brewing left and right. So the high lords of terra rearm the beaten ultramarines and drop the whole ultramarines chapter on a planet full of necrons and somehow those ultramarines that got whooped before, suddenly start soloing unbound ctan shards etc.

But it may have been some sort of fan fiction.

They're just the goody two shoes.

Matthew wrote:
I have lately been seeing that alot of people don't really like, or should I say hate, the Ultramarines.
Why? I think they're cool, not too overused, and they're the Space marines!
If we have any Ultramarines haters, please answer my question!

There is nothing wrong with the Ultramarines. In fact, considering how prosperous their region of space really is, if I lived in the 40k universe, I'd want to be in that region.

I hate Ultramarines because Chaos.

theres a lot of mary sue in 40k, almost all marine chapters have at least one calgar/mephiston/draigo.

 soomemafia wrote:

Matthew wrote:
they're the Space marines!

Mainly this.
Other reasons including (but not limited to)
- they are bunch of Mary Sues
- Matthew Ward
- the ridiculous idea that they are Someron above other SM chapters
- their lack of identity, they have simply no speciality unlike every single other Chapter
- the fact that they were basicly the only Legion who didn't do anything
- Guilliman wasn't that bad, but ever single following of him has decided that Codex Astartes is more important than your brains
- and seriously, no-one wants to be an Ultramarines except for Ultramarines. And no-one (seriously) seems Marines Calgar as their spiritual liege except for Ultramarines.

Gonna bite back. 1, Ultramarines really aren't that Mary Sue-like. A bit over some no-name chapter and the sorts but then there is also the ULTRAMARINE movie where they just kinda like die at the oddest of times. 2, Matt Ward incurred an influx but the same could be said of BA, GK, and Necrons really. 3, I don't really agree to calling Ultramarines pure better but I'd say that overall they are the best generalist marine. The others are specialized in varying forms of combat which means that in the same situation, when it comes down to that one specialty, that chapter > UM. But, at a more aggregate view of their overall skills, I'd say that UM > Marines. 4, their identity is that they are the most generalistic. Add to that, they have the majority of successors, have claim of owning a pretty peaceful little system of planets, and they have veterans that have grown to focus upon fighting Nids more than any other big chapter. They have their own unique qualities, it's just not shown as much but their generalistic attitude is in and of itself a unique quality. Eh the Legion did something but when a surprise fight from SM going traitor and a ton of guardsmen and the Mechanicus goes up can't really blame them. Overall you could say Sal didn't do anything considering they got ambushed and slaughtered. The, in my head, obsession with the Codex is extreme to a fault but it's grimdark/grimderp. I mean, we're talking about knights in space that is a space fantasy that tries to be stupidly gothic evil where nobody is good but we have awesome epic hero clashes and you root for these guys. And I think there's some fluff out there of about how it's more like 1/2 or 3/4 are fully loyal to it whilst the others see it like Guilliman.

As per the last thing, yeah that spiritual liege stuff was nonsense but you could argue that a significant portion want to be UM considering they are successors to them and all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides that, Mary Sue status is pretty common. Basically every named character is a special snowflake that one could brandy the term Mary Sue upon. Yeah, Calgar has some ridiculous fluff sections but it's not like others get preposterous frequently. Draigo is over the top, BA have several (mainly looking at you) Mephiston. Better yet, Sanguinor is a good example of just pure what the heck. SoB have an immortal celestien that keeps on coming back despite the books slanting their divine powers on natural power, daemons are immortal until deus ex machina plot device card, all the bloody immortals, a single marine chapter blowing up an entire necron planet ship of doom, moments of fluff that make me think of SPACE MARINE how you can just butcher your way through everything usually solo. Draigo beats down a primarch daemon prince and starts carving his name, etc, etc, etc. Overall the fluff is over the top and, despite trying to portray itself seriously, almost gets silly for how idiotic it can be sometimes.

Makumba wrote:
I remember reading about ultramarine fluff when they got beaten by necron and the psychic backlash on the empire was so big that whole systems were going heretical and rebelions were brewing left and right. So the high lords of terra rearm the beaten ultramarines and drop the whole ultramarines chapter on a planet full of necrons and somehow those ultramarines that got whooped before, suddenly start soloing unbound ctan shards etc.

But it may have been some sort of fan fiction.

The Second Company was the ones that 'lost' on Damnos. And by lost, I mean, got the civilians out. The only effect that Damnos had after that was that some citizens were demoralized that the Ultramarines lost. Since the Ultramarines are expected to win all the time, the High Lords commanded that the entire Chapter return to Damnos and retake the Planet.

An entire Space Marine Chapter, especially one like the Ultramarines, vs a Necron Tomb World. Why is anyone surprised the Ultramarines won? Entire Space Marine Chapters going to war typically win, no matter what chapter it is.

If you want to complain about something, maybe you should complain about Uriel Ventris' 4th Company defeating the largest splinter of Hive Fleet Kraken. Or Lysander taking some of the Imperial Fists to an Iron Warriors Fortress world and burning it to the ground. Or how about Mephiston choking out a Daemon Prince?

 reiner wrote:
I hate Ultramarines because Chaos.

I turned to chaos because Ultramarines, quite literally.