Ultramarines Hate?

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**ZebioLizard2**

Crazyterran wrote:
Makumba wrote:
I remember reading about ultramarine fluff when they got beaten by necron and the psychic backlash on the empire was so big that whole systems were going heretical and rebelions were brewing left and right. So the high lords of terra rearm the beaten ultramarines and drop the whole ultramarines chapter on a planet full of necrons and somehow those ultramarines that got whooped before, suddenly start soloing unbound ctan shards etc.

But it may have been some sort of fan fiction.

The Second Company was the ones that 'lost' on Damnos. And by lost, I mean, got the civilians out. The only effect that Damnos had after that was that some citizens were demoralized that the Ultramarines lost. Since the Ultramarines are expected to win all the time, the High Lords commanded that the entire Chapter return to Damnos and retake the Planet.

An entire Space Marine Chapter, especially one like the Ultramarines, vs a Necron Tomb World. Why is anyone surprised the Ultramarines won? Entire Space Marine Chapters going to war typically win, no matter what chapter it is.

If you want to complain about something, maybe you should complain about Uriel Ventris' 4th Company defeating the largest splinter of Hive Fleet Kraken. Or Lysander taking some of the Imperial Fists to an Iron Warriors Fortress world and burning it to the ground. Or how about Mephiston choking out a Daemon Prince?

Don't forget a ship of Salamanders taking on the Entire City of Commorogoh.

**ChazSexington**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Uh..What are you talking about? The Ultramarines lose just as often as other first chapters (Not on par with CF or Lamenters, but those kinda got screwed hard). They lost their entire first company to Tyranids and lost a number of their artifacts to Minotaurs, not to mention the other tyranid losses they've taken.

The only real Mary Sue Space Marine faction with no real losses is Space Wolves, who can gut Grand Masters and Inquisition and get bombarded for weeks on end by IG and Sisters and end up coming out ahead. The "Strategic" faction who will fire artillery, then rush their vehicles up front, open the hatch just to smell/watch the fireworks up close.

Right, because only losing your 100 best against the might of Hive Fleet Behemoth ISN'T Mary Sue when only a few hundred Lamenters and the Red Hunters survive Kraken.

**Andilus Greatsword**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Makumba wrote:
I remember reading about ultramarine fluff when they got beaten by necron and the psychic backlash on the empire was so big that whole systems were going heretical and rebelions were brewing left and right. So the high lords of terra rearm the beaten ultramarines and drop the whole ultramarines chapter on a planet full of necrons and somehow those ultramarines that got whooped before, suddenly start soloing unbound ctan shards etc.

But it may have been some sort of fan fiction.

The Second Company was the ones that 'lost' on Damnos. And by lost, I mean, got the civilians out. The only effect that Damnos had after that was that some citizens were demoralized that the Ultramarines lost. Since the Ultramarines are expected to win all the time, the High Lords commanded that the entire Chapter return to Damnos and retake the Planet.

An entire Space Marine Chapter, especially one like the Ultramarines, vs a Necron Tomb World. Why is anyone surprised the Ultramarines won? Entire Space Marine Chapters going to war typically win, no matter what chapter it is.

If you want to complain about something, maybe you should complain about Uriel Ventris' 4th Company defeating the largest splinter of Hive Fleet Kraken. Or Lysander taking some of the Imperial Fists to an Iron Warriors Fortress world and burning it to the ground. Or how about Mephiston choking out a Daemon Prince?

Don't forget a ship of Salamanders taking on the Entire City of Commorogoh.

To be fair, that was both awesome and a ploy by Vect to seize power (not to mention that the Salamanders weren't exactly on the offense, they were clustered and defending themselves - with the right positioning, the power of the entire city can be funneled easily).

**ZebioLizard2**

ChazSexington wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Uh..What are you talking about? The Ultramarines lose just as often as other first chapters (Not on par with CF or Lamenters, but those kinda got screwed hard). They lost their entire first company to Tyranids and lost a number of their artifacts to Minotaurs, not to mention the other tyranid losses they've taken.

The only real Mary Sue Space Marine faction with no real losses is Space Wolves, who can gut Grand Masters and Inquisition and get bombarded for weeks on end by IG and Sisters and end up coming out ahead. The "Strategic" faction who will fire artillery, then rush their vehicles up front, open the hatch just to smell/watch the fireworks up close.

Right, because only losing your 100 best against the might of Hive Fleet Behemoth ISN'T Mary Sue when only a few hundred Lamenters and the Red Hunters survive Kraken.

Please, by that logic more then 3/4ths of 40k are mary sue.

Space Wolves kill inquisitor, Logan kills a grand master Grey Knight, Fenris a lone planet guarded by them is defended without a scratch against Several imperial guard Regiments and Sisters of Battle.

I honestly don't need to go through more, Kharn himself shattered the fighting legion prowess of both the World Eaters and Emperor's Children. This is a typical thing that happens throughout 40k and to indirectly target one is just confirmation bias to point out your dislike of a specific chapter.

**soomemafia**

StarTrotter wrote:

Gonna bite back. 1, Ultramarines really aren't that Mary Sue-like. A bit over some no-name chapter and the sorts but then there is also the ULTRAMARINE movie where they just kinda like die at the oddest of times.2, Matt Ward incurred an influx but the same could be said of BA, GK, and Necrons really. 3, I don't really agree to calling Ultramarines pure better but I'd say that overall they are the best generalist marine. The others are specialized in varying forms of combat which means that in the same situation, when it comes down to that one specialty, that chapter > UM. But, at a more aggregate view of their overall skills, I'd say that UM > Marines. 4, their identity is that they are the most generalistic. Add to that, they have the majority of successors, have claim of owning a pretty peaceful little system of planets, and they have veterans that have grown to focus upon fighting Nids more than any other big chapter. They have their own unique qualities, it's just not shown as much but their generalistic attitude is in and of itself a unique quality. Eh the Legion did something but when a surprise fight from SM going traitor and a ton of guardsmen and the Mechanicus goes up can't really blame them. Overall you could say Sal didn't do anything considering they got ambushed and slaughtered. The, in my head, obsession with the Codex is extreme to a fault but it's grimdark/grimderp. I mean, we're talking about knights in space that is a space fantasy that tries to be stupidly gothic evil where nobody is good but we have awesome epic hero clashes and you root for these guys. And I think there's some fluff out there of about how it's more like 1/2 or 3/4 are fully loyal to it whilst the others see it like Guilliman.

As per the last thing, yeah that spiritual liege stuff was nonsense but you could argue that a significant portion want to be UM considering they are successors to them and all.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides that, Mary Sue status is pretty common. Basically every named character is a special snowflake that one could brandy the term Mary Sue upon. Yeah, Calgar has some ridiculous fluff sections but it's not like others get preposterous frequently. Draigo is over the top, BA have several (mainly looking at you) Mephiston. Better yet, Sanguinor is a good example of just pure what the heck. SoB have an immortal celestien that keeps on coming back despite the books slanting their divine powers on natural power, daemons are immortal until deus ex machina plot device card, all the bloody immortals, a single marine chapter blowing up an entire necron planet ship of doom, moments of fluff that make me think of SPACE MARINE how you can just butcher your way through everything usually solo. Draigo beats down a primarch daemon prince and starts carving his name, etc, etc, etc. Overall the fluff is over the top and, despite trying to portray itself seriously, almost gets silly for how idiotic it can be sometimes.

Well the thing about dear Matthew is that the fluff he wrote for the factions you mentioned was over the top every now and then (Mephiston, Draigo...) but the Codex: Space Marines was made Codex: UM in his hands and in the end the whole codex was filled with statements that can make every neckbeard on /tg/ flip their desk. Don't look at me, I didn't even play the game when that stuff happened but the parts of fluff I've read from that are something from cool to whydoesthisexist?
And come on, killing Eldar Avatar!!?? Who does that? *Sanguinior looks around suspiciously*

And out of curiousity, what exactly do you think about Snguinior's fluff? Why is it so weird in your opinion, I tought it was actually pretty good.

**kronk**

Mary Sue gets tossed around too much. Frankly, when the term comes up, I usually just zone out of the conversation as I'm about to hear some serious nerd raging...

**ZebioLizard2**

Well the thing about dear Matthew is that the fluff he wrote for the factions you mentioned was over the top every now and then (Mephiston, Draigo...) but the Codex: Space Marines was made Codex: UM in his hands and in the end the whole codex was filled with statements that can make every neckbeard on /tg/ flip their desk. Don't look at me, I didn't even play the game when that stuff happened but the parts of fluff I've read from that are something from cool to whydoesthisexist?

Considering that before it became Codex: Space Marine, it originally WAS Codex: Ultramarines, the other chapters just stole their specific codex from them.

**reiner**

Selym wrote:
reiner wrote:
I hate Ultramarines because Chaos.

I turned to chaos because Ultramarines, quite literally.

This guy gets it.

**StarTrotter**

soomemafia wrote:
StarTrotter wrote:

Gonna bite back. 1, Ultramarines really aren't that Mary Sue-like. A bit over some no-name chapter and the sorts but then there is also the ULTRAMARINE movie where they just kinda like die at the oddest of times.2, Matt Ward incurred an influx but the same could be said of BA, GK, and Necrons really. 3, I don't really agree to calling Ultramarines pure better but I'd say that overall they are the best generalist marine. The others are specialized in varying forms of combat which means that in the same situation, when it comes down to that one specialty, that chapter > UM. But, at a more aggregate view of their overall skills, I'd say that UM > Marines. 4, their identity is that they are the most generalistic. Add to that, they have the majority of successors, have claim of owning a pretty peaceful little system of planets, and they have veterans that have grown to focus upon fighting Nids more than any other big chapter. They have their own unique qualities, it's just not shown as much but their generalistic attitude is in and of itself a unique quality. Eh the Legion did something but when a surprise fight from SM going traitor and a ton of guardsmen and the Mechanicus goes up can't really blame them. Overall you could say Sal didn't do anything considering they got ambushed and slaughtered. The, in my head, obsession with the Codex is extreme to a fault but it's grimdark/grimderp. I mean, we're talking about knights in space that is a space fantasy that tries to be stupidly gothic evil where nobody is good but we have awesome epic hero clashes and you root for these guys. And I think there's some fluff out there of about how it's more like 1/2 or 3/4 are fully loyal to it whilst the others see it like Guilliman.

As per the last thing, yeah that spiritual liege stuff was nonsense but you could argue that a significant portion want to be UM considering they are successors to them and all.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides that, Mary Sue status is pretty common. Basically every named character is a special snowflake that one could brandy the term Mary Sue upon. Yeah, Calgar has some ridiculous fluff sections but it's not like others get preposterous frequently. Draigo is over the top, BA have several (mainly looking at you) Mephiston. Better yet, Sanguinor is a good example of just pure what the heck. SoB have an immortal celestien that keeps on coming back despite the books slanting their divine powers on natural power, daemons are immortal until deus ex machina plot device card, all the bloody immortals, a single marine chapter blowing up an entire necron planet ship of doom, moments of fluff that make me think of SPACE MARINE how you can just butcher your way through everything usually solo. Draigo beats down a primarch daemon prince and starts carving his name, etc, etc, etc. Overall the fluff is over the top and, despite trying to portray itself seriously, almost gets silly for how idiotic it can be sometimes.

Well the thing about dear Matthew is that the fluff he wrote for the factions you mentioned was over the top every now and then (Mephiston, Draigo...) but the Codex: Space Marines was made Codex: UM in his hands and in the end the whole codex was filled with statements that can make every neckbeard on /tg/ flip their desk. Don't look at me, I didn't even play the game when that stuff happened but the parts of fluff I've read from that are something from cool to whydoesthisexist?
And come on, killing Eldar Avatar!!?? Who does that? *Sanguinior looks around suspiciously*

And out of curiousity, what exactly do you think about Snguinior's fluff? Why is it so weird in your opinion, I tought it was actually pretty good.

He is basically a spirit from the warp or something that appears when hope is lost (like several others) and then flies around to save the day. Engaging in mortal combat, Sanguinor proved faster and more graceful than the powerful Bloodthirster. As the Angel and the Daemon struck devastating blows to one another, Sanguinor managed to catch the Bloodthirsters whip and hurl himself forward, piercing Ka'Bandha's chest with his blade. But Ka'Bandha was still not yet slain and both combatants were weary. In a move of desperation, Sanguinor grabbed Ka'Bandha and flew high into the upper atmosphere with his jump pack. Pulling his sword from Ka'Bandha's chest, the Bloodthirster plummeted to the earth below and the Daemon was shattered, its spirit sent back to the Warp. And then there was all this combat. The guy that broke Sang's legs, described as the mightiest of Khorne's subjects sometimes promptly gets into a tussle and loses (being flown into the sky before smashed down) against whatever the Sanguinior is. Simply put, almost every named character is a special snowflake and there's pretty much no faction that doesn't have its OTT what the heck moments. Besides that, the CODEX: SM was originally UM. I mean, it's not like they were removing models without names to have UM get the most.

**ChazSexington**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
ChazSexington wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Uh..What are you talking about? The Ultramarines lose just as often as other first chapters (Not on par with CF or Lamenters, but those kinda got screwed hard). They lost their entire first company to Tyranids and lost a number of their artifacts to Minotaurs, not to mention the other tyranid losses they've taken.

The only real Mary Sue Space Marine faction with no real losses is Space Wolves, who can gut Grand Masters and Inquisition and get bombarded for weeks on end by IG and Sisters and end up coming out ahead. The "Strategic" faction who will fire artillery, then rush their vehicles up front, open the hatch just to smell/watch the fireworks up close.

Right, because only losing your 100 best against the might of Hive Fleet Behemoth ISN'T Mary Sue when only a few hundred Lamenters and the Red Hunters survive Kraken.

Please, by that logic more then 3/4ths of 40k are mary sue.

Space Wolves kill inquisitor, Logan kills a grand master Grey Knight, Fenris a lone planet guarded by them is defended without a scratch against Several imperial guard Regiments and Sisters of Battle.

I honestly don't need to go through more, Kharn himself shattered the fighting legion prowess of both the World Eaters and Emperor's Children. This is a typical thing that happens throughout 40k and to indirectly target one is just confirmation bias to point out your dislike of a specific chapter.

Nope - There are certain Chapters that are almost as Mary Sue as the UM, e.g. the Blood Angels and SW and the odd other character, but they're overrepresented in the UM. Mephiston and the Blood Angels, Kharn etc have their bizarre moments, HOWEVER Calgar has more than one moment of fluff rape. Then you add in the general dislike for Roboute, the blandness and their strict adherence to the Codex Astartes, and last, but not least, the 5th edition SM codex, and suddenly there are a lot more reasons to dislike them than the Space Vampires.

**kerikhaos**

I gotta say im not fully in with the fluff for the ultra boyz but I keep notincing some tension between whenever they are mentioned (not specifically dakka but generally across the board).

My only opinion is because they may have been quoted the GW army of gold. It makes everyone else feel their chapters aren't as good nor as decorated (which is ridiculous of course). The fluff is phat for all chapters in my opinion but that dagger which GW hs just gone the extra mile to say "these are out lads everyone" may have just gone a tad too far p*ssing everyone off

**StarTrotter**

Personally I have a far more dramatic dislike for Space Wolves. Piss off the Ecclesiarchy, slaughters GK, been sieged, assaulted by Thousand Sons with a daemon primarch with only a skeleton crew, and some other OTT parts while wolfing it up and having sex for fun. UM are by no means the only Mary Sues

Anyways, joking aside, I'd say that there is, to an extent, a reality that the Ultramarines are going to be bland in part because their main thing is that they are generalists. Not the master of siege or master of fast offense or anything like that. No, they are the guy that spread out their stats so they don't really suck at any one thing. It's got its perks and drawbacks.

To be fair though, even their unique qualities get taken in the end. The reality is that all of the chapters have their own unique groups. Salamanders have Firedrakes but no rules to really distinct them, UM have their whole anti-tyranid focus built in. Wasn't that what eventually became sternguard actually? But anyways, it's just kind of a catch of not getting your own codex to yourself. Heck, look at CSM. All those diverse tactics and styles rammed into one where apparently KSons and the sorts are only in standard power armor and only leader is a named character.

**Andilus Greatsword**

soomemafia wrote:
And out of curiousity, what exactly do you think about Snguinior's fluff? Why is it so weird in your opinion, I tought it was actually pretty good.

The Sanguinor's fluff is idiotic and not even close to justified anywhere in the fluff - it's basically just Ward throwing in Space Jesus for the hell of it.

StarTrotter wrote:
Personally I have a far more dramatic dislike for Space Wolves. Piss off the Ecclesiarchy, slaughters GK, been sieged, assaulted by Thousand Sons with a daemon primarch with only a skeleton crew, and some other OTT parts while wolfing it up and having sex for fun. UM are by no means the only Mary Sues

To be fair, the Wolves got their asses kicked in Battle of the Fang, and the only reason they last as long as they do is because they're mostly fighting untested cultists and they hide inside of the Fang for a couple months straight.

**Veteran Sergeant**

soomemafia wrote:Well the thing about dear Matthew is that the fluff he wrote for the factions you mentioned was over the top every now and then (Mephiston, Draigo...) but the Codex: Space Marines was made Codex: UM in his hands.

It was always Codex: Ultramarines. The reason it was changed to Codex: Space Marines was because it was less confusing to new players what book to buy if you just wanted to play "regular" Space Marines.

But if you look at the books for 3rd and 4th Edition, almost all the fluff is Ultramarines. The majority of the special characters are Ultramarines. The majority of the display models are Ultramarines. The painting guides are for Ultramarines. Heck, 4th Ed's book said "How to Paint Ultramarines". The fluff in the 4th Ed book is almost identical to the fluff in the 5th Ed book in terms of content. The history of the Ultramarines and the Codex, and how being a Codex Chapter means following the teachings of Guilliman, and how almost all chapters are Codex Chapters, even the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels, etc.

Seriously. Find a copy of that book. Then compare the fluff in the 4th Edition and 5th Edition books. Mat Ward didn't make Codex: Space Marines into Codex: Ultramarines. It was always Codex: Ultramarines. Guest Starring: Those Other Guys.

Everybody gets pissed off that the Ultramarines got their own Codex. But nobody can ever explain why it was a bad thing that the Ultramarines did, but it was okay that the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars and Space Wolves did.

Hint: They don't have an answer because it's a senseless thing to get mad about.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChazSexington wrote:the blandness and their strict adherence to the Codex Astartes

You do realize that "strict adherence to the Codex" means 10 companies of 100 guys (for roughly 1000 infantry Marines), with designated markings for Companies, Sergeants, Librarians, etc. And that they follow the processes laid down for recruiting and training new Marines.

That's it. That's all that being "Codex Adherent" means. And it quite literally describes the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and nearly every other Chapter out there except for the Space Wolves and Black Templars and a handful of others. Even the ones like the Salamanders are more or less Codex Adherent, with a few minor variations like their company sizes.

**ZebioLizard2**

ChazSexington wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
ChazSexington wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Uh..What are you talking about? The Ultramarines lose just as often as other first chapters (Not on par with CF or Lamenters, but those kinda got screwed hard). They lost their entire first company to Tyranids and lost a number of their artifacts to Minotaurs, not to mention the other tyranid losses they've taken.

The only real Mary Sue Space Marine faction with no real losses is Space Wolves, who can gut Grand Masters and Inquisition and get bombarded for weeks on end by IG and Sisters and end up coming out ahead. The "Strategic" faction who will fire artillery, then rush their vehicles up front, open the hatch just to smell/watch the fireworks up close.

Right, because only losing your 100 best against the might of Hive Fleet Behemoth ISN'T Mary Sue when only a few hundred Lamenters and the Red Hunters survive Kraken.

Please, by that logic more then 3/4ths of 40k are mary sue.

Space Wolves kill inquisitor, Logan kills a grand master Grey Knight, Fenris a lone planet guarded by them is defended without a scratch against Several imperial guard Regiments and Sisters of Battle.

I honestly don't need to go through more, Kharn himself shattered the fighting legion prowess of both the World Eaters and Emperor's Children. This is a typical thing that happens throughout 40k and to indirectly target one is just confirmation bias to point out your dislike of a specific chapter.

Nope - There are certain Chapters that are almost as Mary Sue as the UM, e.g. the Blood Angels and SW and the odd other character, but they're overrepresented in the UM. Mephiston and the Blood Angels, Kharn etc have their bizarre moments, HOWEVER Calgar has more than one moment of fluff rape. Then you add in the general dislike for Roboute, the blandness and their strict adherence to the Codex Astartes, and last, but not least, the 5th edition SM codex, and suddenly there are a lot more reasons to dislike them than the Space Vampires.

Bias, gotcha, because that's all that pretty much grounds too.

**ChazSexington**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChazSexington wrote:the blandness and their strict adherence to the Codex Astartes
You do realize that "strict adherence to the Codex" means 10 companies of 100 guys (for roughly 1000 infantry Marines), with designated markings for Companies, Sergeants, Librarians, etc. And that they follow the processes laid down for recruiting and training new Marines.

That's it. That's all that being "Codex Adherent" means. And it quite literally describes the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and nearly every other Chapter out there except for the Space Wolves and Black Templars and a handful of others. Even the ones like the Salamanders are more or less Codex Adherent, with a few minor variations like their company sizes.

The Codex Astartes is a great and sacred tome of military organisation, strategy and tactics written by Roboute Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines Space Marine Legion, to prevent another Horus Heresy. It outlines Guilliman's ideal for the moral behaviour, order of battle and tactical doctrine of a Space Marine Chapter. While not all Space Marine Chapters in the Imperium adhere to the Codex's dictates with the same rigidity as the Ultramarines, most obey the spirit of the Codex if not the actual letter. A Space Marine Chapter that generally follows the guidelines of the Codex Astartes is referred to as a "Codex-compliant Chapter."

It's not just Chapter organisation.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Bias, gotcha, because that's all that pretty much grounds too.

I've just listed loads of reasons for why people dislike the Smurfs and the reason for the bias. I understand the reason for a baseline SM, but their blandness just doesn't appeal to me, which is why I don't dislike (just no appeal) the UM as a whole. Rather, I dislike most Mary Sue characters; I can suspend disbelief for daemons and FTL travel as the laws of reality are different, but unless they remain consistent (e.g. Grot loses to Eldar Guardian, Eldar Guardian loses to SM, SM loses to Avatar of Khaine) it makes the various events more difficult to swallow.

**ZebioLizard2**

SM loses to Avatar of Khaine)

Man I can't think of anything in fluff that the Avatar of Khaine has actually beaten, it's been humilated by chaos, torn apart by nids, beaten in one on one combat by SM with three separate characters..

AoK is just the universal jobber.

**ChazSexington**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
SM loses to Avatar of Khaine)

Man I can't think of anything in fluff that the Avatar of Khaine has actually beaten, it's been humilated by chaos, torn apart by nids, beaten in one on one combat by SM with three separate characters..

AoK is just the universal jobber.

Aye, I feel sorry for them!

**Veteran Sergeant**

ChazSexingto wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChazSexington wrote:the blandness and their strict adherence to the Codex Astartes
You do realize that "strict adherence to the Codex" means 10 companies of 100 guys (for roughly 1000 infantry Marines), with designated markings for Companies, Sergeants, Librarians, etc. And that they follow the processes laid down for recruiting and training new Marines.

That's it. That's all that being "Codex Adherent" means. And it quite literally describes the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and nearly every other Chapter out there except for the Space Wolves and Black Templars and a handful of others. Even the ones like the Salamanders are more or less Codex Adherent, with a few minor variations like their company sizes.

The Codex Astartes is a great and sacred tome of military organisation, strategy and tactics written by Roboute Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines Space Marine Legion, to prevent another Horus Heresy. It outlines Guilliman's ideal for the moral behaviour, order of battle and tactical doctrine of a Space Marine Chapter. While not all Space Marine Chapters in the Imperium adhere to the Codex's dictates with the same rigidity as the Ultramarines, most obey the spirit of the Codex if not the actual letter. A Space Marine Chapter that generally follows the guidelines of the Codex Astartes is referred to as a "Codex-compliant Chapter."

It's not just Chapter organisation.

Right, but you're misunderstanding it what it's saying. The "tactical doctrines" mean "A Tactical Squad has 10 guys, a heavy weapon, and a special weapon" Not "When attacking a fortified position, always do this, every time, no matter what." It's a tactical doctrine. "a stated principle of government policy, mainly in foreign or military affairs." For example, the Monroe Doctrine was that the US would view further European colonization in the Americas as acts of aggression that would require US intervention. It didn't say "If those skeevy Frenchies show up in Guatamala, we will send ten ships with Marines on it."

The important quotes about the Codex that people miss:

"Not all Chapters follow the strict organizational and tactical guidelines of the Codex Astartes. Those that do are sometimes referred to as Codex Chapters. The Space Marines adhere to the Codex as the model for their organization and identification markings."

"The Codex Astartes is a massive tome that describes the organization, tactical operation, and countless other aspects of Space Marine doctrine. Subjects as diverse as religious instruction and strategic supply are covered in great detail within its thousands of holopages. The Codex Astartes amounts to an authoritative guide to waging war in any number of ways on countless different types of worlds.

It's not an instruction manual for dummies, and the term "Codex Chapter" is all about organization and markings. The Codex Astartes is a good thing, lol. Understanding and mastering its strategic and tactical teachings is what has made the Space Marines so successful, and the Ultramarines (its most learned and fanatical devotees) the "Greatest of all Space Marine Chapters".

Like I've said. If their Chapter Master is supposed to be "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the book like it's the War Bible, who is more likely to have the correct interpretation. Rick Priestley? Or Graham McNeill and a bunch of people who pretend that it's some kind of garbage, misinterpreted text?

Like I said. If Calgar is the Popex Astartes, and he's one of the best military minds alive, but the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

Edit: Sorry, Calgar, not Guilliman.

**soomemafia**

Just to clear things up.

I personally don't hate UM. The things said here are mostly answers to the original question "why do some people hate them" (emphasis on the word 'some').

I'm not a fan of them, as the way I see it they take pretty large precentage of the space GW gives all Space Marines. They have been in the cover of rulebooks and starter sets, they are the examples in every single SM product on their sites (disregarding ones exclusive to other chapters).
In short, my personal opinion:
They are not better than any othe Chapter. Why does GW pretend otherwise?

**Paradigm**

soomemafia wrote:

In short, my personal opinion:
They are not better than any othe Chapter. Why does GW pretend otherwise?

With regards to the site/box art, probably because it's easier for a new player to be told 'you can use the blue guys' that it is to say 'here are blue and green and red Space Marines and you can use that green one as blue ones but not the red one...' Ect. It's the same reason all guardsmen are down as Catachan/Cadian and all Eldar are Sain-hann. It establishes an aesthetic that allows you to easily see who goes in what army.