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Terrific.

Least the cost of GK makes people not want to use them so hopefully i wont have to deal with DK spams AND WK spams in the same meta (other tau player left so im the only active riptide user, but i only use 1 until above 2kpts anyway)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
35pts for FNP on a riptide, 15pts for any other model that can get it at all (suits).

You'd be amazed how much that 35pts actually hurts. i find myself having a lot of 100pt gaps between a finished list and what i got because i have a riptide with FNP preventing me from buying a hammerhead or something (since elites are full so no suits). Yes i can add more firewarriors but blind firewarrior spam is a bad idea, and when im going for fishwarriors but either dont have the model or the points for a third fish, im not bringing more warriors

Oh come on! I play Deathwing, please don't whine how some piece of wargear costs whopping zomging 35 points!

 Vineheart01 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
Oh, the Riptide is about the be completely overshadowed by the Dreadknight. I used to use the Dreadnought as a comparison for the Riptide Chassis, but now there is going to be no comparison.

For 225ps I get a 4W T6 2+/4++(Sanctuary) with a Master Crafted Force weapon Striking with 5 S10 attacks on the charge at I4. And it has a 6 S7 Rending Shots at BS4 or a S7 Rending Pie Plate and a S6/AP4 Torrent Flamer. And it moves 12" and has a 30" shunt.

And using its guns and abilities really doesn't hurt it. The Dreadknight was definitely brought to the same level as the Riptide and Wraith knight.

That better be rumor milling. Dreadknights are nasty enough as it is, only reason they arent complained about as much as riptides/wraithknights is because GK are FAR less common than tau/eldar. Dreadknights are the only thing in that army that actually scares the bejebus out of me, the rest i can deal with. Literally never had any issues with GK armies that didnt include a DK or two.

And to the guy complaining about Riptide movements compared to its size: DKs are roughly the same size and are 12" and WKs are HUGE and move 12" - riptides are on average slower than these two with a possible 1-6" increase if their assault-movement rolls well. Without me rolling really well on the assault move or using my nova charge for a 4D6 assault move, things that move 12" catch my riptides reeeeaaally fast.

Nope, its true.

Base DreadKnight is the same cost. Personal Teleporter dropped 45pts. Heavy Psycannon got better. Nemesis Doom Fists got Nerfed and the Greatsword got Nerfed. Now has auto Sanctuary though. And the Psilencer has Force.

So they got cheaper, tougher, and better shooting, for a marginal drop in CC ability. Losing reroll everything GS hurt.


Edit: At least people will complain about my Riptides less, and my Paladin/Dreadknight army more! Too bad I can run all Paladins anymore.

I like the Riptide because markerlights = a Large Blast that doesn't scatter and causes a lot of death. Anything in the open oranything I can eliminate the cover on takes it pretty hard. Now it isn't as useful against things like big Monsters, but then, that's what the rest of the army is for. it doesn't need to be good at everything.

I also like them because they effectively can be a bit of anti-air and being able to drop kick a deep striker is really cool. I personally kleep the missiles on them and ripple fire when i can and it makes ense to.

That you can risk a wound to give yerself a 3+ invul in a critical situation is really cool.

Teleporter is autotake then since its dirt cheap now, and giving it Force on its weapon is just insane. Activate that thing and send it at other MCs and watch it slice them en-twine immediately at high init.

*shudders*

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Teleporter is autotake then since its dirt cheap now, and giving it Force on its weapon is just insane. Activate that thing and send it at other MCs and watch it slice them en-twine immediately at high init.

*shudders*

Force Psilencers are going to be scary for Riptides for sure.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Teleporter is autotake then since its dirt cheap now, and giving it Force on its weapon is just insane. Activate that thing and send it at other MCs and watch it slice them en-twine immediately at high init.

*shudders*

Force Psilencers are going to be scary for Riptides for sure.

It still takes ~54 BS 4 Shots to do it, or 4.5 turns of firing a Psilencer on average. And that assume Force is an auto success. About as scary as Heavy Wraith Cannons, except Heavy Wraith Cannons deal more normal wounds.

With Misfortune it gets much better and can ID Wraithknights in a single turn!

Remains to be seen actually.
After all, psykering him isn't as easy as it used to be, and without the silly "sword makes guns better" thing going on, his firepower is rather reduced.

Yes, he will murderer riptides at CC, but the riptides will still murderer him in range.

And technically, he DOES hurt himself with his power. any attempt to turn of force or sanc has a 1/36 chance to hurt it. and perhaps even cripple it. far less than riptide 1/3 on NOVA, but the whole reason the IA riptide is that good is that it never actually needs to use NOVA.

 Zagman wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Teleporter is autotake then since its dirt cheap now, and giving it Force on its weapon is just insane. Activate that thing and send it at other MCs and watch it slice them en-twine immediately at high init.

*shudders*

Force Psilencers are going to be scary for Riptides for sure.

It still takes ~54 BS 4 Shots to do it, or 4.5 turns of firing a Psilencer on average. And that assume Force is an auto success. About as scary as Heavy Wraith Cannons, except Heavy Wraith Cannons deal more normal wounds.

With Misfortune it gets much better and can ID Wraithknights in a single turn!

I dont understand that math. 10 shot = at least one Instant Death hit. So if he saves one out of three invuls, thats not 54 shots. More like 20. I'd take those odds all day long!.

10 shots at BS4= ~7 hits rounding up. Strength 4 wounds on a 6, so of those 7 shots you'll get 1 wound. The Riptide's 2+ save turns that into 0.18 wounds.

54 shots at BS4 comes out to 36 hits. Wounding on 6's, that's 6 wounds. With a 2+ save the Riptide will save 5/6 of those wounds. Thus, it'll take one wound.

You might be thinking the Psylencer is AP2? It's AP-

They can buff the Dreadknight all the want, it's still one of the most pants on head stupid model concepts GW has ever come out with.

At least a Riptide makes sense, of course a canny earth caste designer would look at a Crisis suit and think.. BIGGER.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
10 shots at BS4= ~7 hits rounding up. Strength 4 wounds on a 6, so of those 7 shots you'll get 1 wound. The Riptide's 2+ save turns that into 0.18 wounds.

54 shots at BS4 comes out to 36 hits. Wounding on 6's, that's 6 wounds. With a 2+ save the Riptide will save 5/6 of those wounds. Thus, it'll take one wound.

You might be thinking the Psylencer is AP2? It's AP-

I see. I had heard that it was or perhaps my brain just said "Instant Death, no save". Misinformation from rumors probably. But I see what you mean now.

My personal hatred towards Riptides wouldn't be so malicious if they weren't MCs.

A walker, sure. Give it AV 13. Least then you aren't wasting 5+ Lascannon shots to kill the damn thing just for it to shrug them off with 5++ or Nova shields and FNP... If there is anything in this game that doesn't deserve the listing it has, it's the Riptide in my opinion.

Even the Tau Lore goes against the damn thing... How much BS can one model bring to an army. At least the Wraithknight has a 3+ and are controlled by the spirits of the dead. The Riptide is literally a mechanical Gun Mount walking platform. Why the hell, WHO the hell's idea was it to make it a MC?

Actually its AP4, not AP-
So at the very least its effective at mowing down hordes by sheer number of shots, kina like a "+1 heavy bolter"


Also, no range ID on wraithknights, being S4 vs T8 and all, outside the area where wounds are even possible.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Actually its AP4, not AP-
So at the very least its effective at mowing down hordes by sheer number of shots, kina like a "+1 heavy bolter"

A Riptide is a bigger, nastier Crisis suit. Crisis suits aren't walkers... though, if you want to make both walkers, I'm ok with having a jump-jet suit immune to bolter fire.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Dreadknights are nasty enough as it is, only reason they arent complained about as much as riptides/wraithknights is because GK are FAR less common than tau/eldar. Dreadknights are the only thing in that army that actually scares the bejebus out of me, the rest i can deal with. Literally never had any issues with GK armies that didnt include a DK or two.

Rejoice! Now, every GK army will have three Dreadknights! Why? Because that's about all we have left to scare people with...

 BoomWolf wrote:
Actually its AP4, not AP-
So at the very least its effective at mowing down hordes by sheer number of shots, kina like a "+1 heavy bolter"

Dunno. A base psylencer is killing 3 T3 4+sv models per turn at BS4, rounding up. That's pretty terrible against hordes.

It's honestly just a rather poor weapon all around. Being AP4 is better than I thought, but they really should have made it strength 5 imo. It's still wounding most MC's on a 5+, and they're still getting their save most of the time, so it wouldn't be broken. But it would help it not suck so much ass in its intended role.

How much is a gatling psylencer?

Back on topic i'd say the only thing really OP about riptides is the durability. They take way too much shooting to bring down and are hard catch with assault units. That said their firepower is mediocre point for point compared to the rest of the tau codex and if you can engage them with pretty much any assault based unit, they are pretty much out of the game.

Truth is they are a strong unit point for point but people complain about them IMO becasue you see them on pretty much EVERY tau list. There is a good reason for this and it isnt "tau players are lame and cheesy". Its becasue they are kind of a crutch for the army that lacks durability and mobility but excels at shooting. Aside from allies tau have pretty much no other way to contest objectives at the end of the game. On top of that they're one of tau's best defenses against AV13/14 which is another thing that the book seriously lacks. Not taking a riptide in your tau list really hurts the army competitively. The unit is kind of a no brainer, It fixes all of the flaws of the army and does it for cheap.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Actually its AP4, not AP-
So at the very least its effective at mowing down hordes by sheer number of shots, kina like a "+1 heavy bolter"


Also, no range ID on wraithknights, being S4 vs T8 and all, outside the area where wounds are even possible.

Note I said with Misfortune which grants rending which bypasses this restriction. It averages one dead Wraithknight per turn sans variability.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Remains to be seen actually.
and without the silly "sword makes guns better" thing going on, his firepower is rather reduced.

Explain, the Greatsword never affected shooting

The problem with Riptides imo is their cost.

At base, they're 180 points. For 10 points less than a Trygon you're getting a 2+ save, jet-pack movement, vastly superior firepower in the HBC and the SMS and a stock 5++. All that in exchange for not having deep-strike, one less wound and worse CC ability.

People point to the Wraithknight and ask why it doesn't get as much flak with its HWC's, conveniently ignoring that the WK is a whopping 60 points more expensive than the Riptide and has far less firepower and worse movement (jet-pack > jump-pack).

The Wraithknight is fairly costed for what it brings to the table stock- the Riptide is not. If the WK costs 240 and a Trygon Prime costs 230, than the Riptide should be around 250.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The problem with Riptides imo is their cost.

At base, they're 180 points. For 10 points less than a Trygon you're getting a 2+ save, jet-pack movement, vastly superior firepower in the HBC and the SMS and a stock 5++. All that in exchange for not having deep-strike, one less wound and worse CC ability.

People point to the Wraithknight and ask why it doesn't get as much flak with its HWC's, conveniently ignoring that the WK is a whopping 60 points more expensive than the Riptide and has far less firepower and worse movement (jet-pack > jump-pack).

The Wraithknight is fairly costed for what it brings to the table stock- the Riptide is not. If the WK costs 240 and a Trygon Prime costs 230, than the Riptide should be around 250.

It's been discussed ad nauseous that the base HBC Riotide is appropriately priced. It is the Ion accelerator upgrade that is under costed as it greatly reduces the self inflicted damage of the NOVA Reactor and Gets Hot through Volume.

There is nothing wrong with the base BBC Riptide whereas the IA upgrade should be 20-30 Pts more expensive or have a worse AP in Normal and Overcharged Modes.

Iontides would be fine even with the cost if the AP was AP3 by default, mirroring the hammerhead equivalent and its "uniqueness" coming from the Nova charge, which is how it is right now (s9 ordnance ap2). That way nova charging it actually has a purpose, and at least 2+ models arent deathly afraid of it 24-7.
But, it isnt, and i doubt Tau would get a new dex anytime even remotely soon. And GW arent the type to errata statlines of units or weapons. Rules yes, the actual stat no (least far as ive seen).

Which is why i like what Warmachine does - each unit has a card and thats where all their non-universal rules, stats, and costs are found. Easier to add new models, and easier to "fix" broken models.

 Zagman wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The problem with Riptides imo is their cost.

At base, they're 180 points. For 10 points less than a Trygon you're getting a 2+ save, jet-pack movement, vastly superior firepower in the HBC and the SMS and a stock 5++. All that in exchange for not having deep-strike, one less wound and worse CC ability.

People point to the Wraithknight and ask why it doesn't get as much flak with its HWC's, conveniently ignoring that the WK is a whopping 60 points more expensive than the Riptide and has far less firepower and worse movement (jet-pack > jump-pack).

The Wraithknight is fairly costed for what it brings to the table stock- the Riptide is not. If the WK costs 240 and a Trygon Prime costs 230, than the Riptide should be around 250.

It's been discussed ad nauseous that the base HBC Riotide is appropriately priced. It is the Ion accelerator upgrade that is under costed as it greatly reduces the self inflicted damage of the NOVA Reactor and Gets Hot through Volume.

There is nothing wrong with the base BBC Riptide whereas the IA upgrade should be 20-30 Pts more expensive or have a worse AP in Normal and Overcharged Modes.

It's not the BBC that's the specific problem, it's the BBC along with everything else the model gets for its 180 points that's the problem. That the Ion Accelerator is undercosted does nothing to change the fact that the BBC Riptide has vastly more toys and capabilities stock than most of the other MC's in the game despite being significantly cheaper.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

And to the guy complaining about Riptide movements compared to its size: DKs are roughly the same size and are 12" and WKs are HUGE and move 12" - riptides are on average slower than these two with a possible 1-6" increase if their assault-movement rolls well. Without me rolling really well on the assault move or using my nova charge for a 4D6 assault move, things that move 12" catch my riptides reeeeaaally fast.

Bear in mind, I said Riptide-size models.

I don't think DKs, WKs or anything else that size should have more than 6" movement either.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
My personal hatred towards Riptides wouldn't be so malicious if they weren't MCs.

A walker, sure. Give it AV 13. Least then you aren't wasting 5+ Lascannon shots to kill the damn thing just for it to shrug them off with 5++ or Nova shields and FNP... If there is anything in this game that doesn't deserve the listing it has, it's the Riptide in my opinion.

Even the Tau Lore goes against the damn thing... How much BS can one model bring to an army. At least the Wraithknight has a 3+ and are controlled by the spirits of the dead. The Riptide is literally a mechanical Gun Mount walking platform. Why the hell, WHO the hell's idea was it to make it a MC?

Presumably the same person who conceived the Dreadknight.

"Hmm, a huge walker with a organic pilot strapped to the front, I wonder how I should classify it? If only there was some existing model I could compare it to."



"Oh well, since there's no such thing exists, I'd better just make it a monstrous creature."

just be happy that GW didn't follow the MC archetype for pricing the riptide.
'Where do MCs belong?'
'In Combat.'
'What are the riptide's stats?'
'xxx'
'Oh those suck, lets make it a hundred points'
\sarcasm
OTOH, Penitent Engines would likely be seen more if the Sisters codex was useful. I'd say wait a couple months for the new GK codex to drop. Then, we'll get harped on less as more people start using and facing dreadknights.

 carldooley wrote:

OTOH, Penitent Engines would likely be seen more if the Sisters codex was useful.

They'd be seen more if their rules weren't crap.

Anyone feel threatened by a AV11 open-topped melee dreadnaught?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The problem with Riptides imo is their cost.

At base, they're 180 points. For 10 points less than a Trygon you're getting a 2+ save, jet-pack movement, vastly superior firepower in the HBC and the SMS and a stock 5++. All that in exchange for not having deep-strike, one less wound and worse CC ability.

People point to the Wraithknight and ask why it doesn't get as much flak with its HWC's, conveniently ignoring that the WK is a whopping 60 points more expensive than the Riptide and has far less firepower and worse movement (jet-pack > jump-pack).

The Wraithknight is fairly costed for what it brings to the table stock- the Riptide is not. If the WK costs 240 and a Trygon Prime costs 230, than the Riptide should be around 250.

It's been discussed ad nauseous that the base HBC Riotide is appropriately priced. It is the Ion accelerator upgrade that is under costed as it greatly reduces the self inflicted damage of the NOVA Reactor and Gets Hot through Volume.

There is nothing wrong with the base BBC Riptide whereas the IA upgrade should be 20-30 Pts more expensive or have a worse AP in Normal and Overcharged Modes.

It's not the BBC that's the specific problem, it's the BBC along with everything else the model gets for its 180 points that's the problem. That the Ion Accelerator is undercosted does nothing to change the fact that the BBC Riptide has vastly more toys and capabilities stock than most of the other MC's in the game despite being significantly cheaper.

HBC, not BBC. HEAVY burst cannon. not a news station.

Anyway, the "HBC with toys" argument was already covered before, math-wise it showed that the riptide, while not using NOVA, just fails to produce meaningful damage in either shooting or CC compared to its cost, making his impressive hull and movement skills quite very relevant, yet when you DO turn on the NOVA for constant HBC overcharge, you get decent levels of firepower, yet at the cost of reducing the riptide's own bulky defenses into a less-then-impressive status, costs compared (it deals an average of 3.33 wounds to itself during a game with constant overcharging, so its almost like a 1.66W T6 in termi armor in the final count.)

The HBC is actually a wonder of proper balance and decision making, as you get a unit that has medicore offense and great defense, and can shift some of its defense for a boost in offense, but every shot you want to make stronger, means you will lose more of your defense. the IA however, easily gets both as he does not need to activate NOVA in order to get the damage going, and even if he does he takes less damage from it (1 gets hot roll every turn compared to 12 gets hot shots every turn. that alone is about 1.166 wounds per game difference even if you did constantly overcharge for some reason)

You can make the HBCtide shine with making good calls of when to overcharge, and when to settle for less damage and just not take the pain for it. it might fail you sometimes with NOVA derp, but on average it will work out when you make good calls. bad calls (overcharging when you don't need to, or not overcharging when you should) will make it under-perform though, and with the added point that the range is not amazing (not BAD mind you, but not incredible), you have to put yourself at some level of risk of return fire at least from heavy weapons in order to attack-making it a high-skill unit that requires good decision making to make the most of, unlike its IA brother who is nearly a no-brainer "use non-NOVA blast every turn, never have to get remotely close so you are never in any danger" (almost, as in rare cases you are better off using other shots, but even these cases are rather obvious)

Riptides are dealing with holdover feelings from the last edition.

They were BS because of the ability for ICs to join them and what that brought.

However now they are a little cheap but they are a crutch if you take a bunch of them and good players will have answers for them

The most egregious riptides are the air? caste ones which get to reroll their nova rolls which effectively gives them a permanent storm shield.

Totally ridiculous.