Noob questions: what makes riptides so powerful?

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**carldooley**

you mean the Earth Caste Pilot Array? it doesn't give you a permanent storm shield. It allows rerolls on the Nova Test, and allows rerolls of one in shooting. realistically, it decreases the likelihood of gets hot, and is a one off. unless your opponent is unbound or running multiple CADs, you will only ever face one at a time.

**wtnind**

Reroll nova = 1 in 9 chance of failing your nova

nova gives you a 3++ = storm shield

**carldooley**

it can. but if that is all you or your opponent use it for, then you or your opponent are (sorry, don't like using names) using it to less than its maximum potential. it can do OTHER things as well.

for instance, check out ripple fire.

**wtnind**

Indeed you are right, it is even more egregiously offensive than how i described it. I intended to highlight it as a particularly overpowered form of the riptide quickly rather than exhaustively list every power it gets.

The R'Vana is also a more OP version of the regular riptide.

**Jancoran**

GoliothOnline wrote:
My personal hatred towards Riptides wouldn't be so malicious if they weren't MCs.

A walker, sure. Give it AV 13. Least then you aren't wasting 5+ Lascannon shots to kill the damn thing just for it to shrug them off with 5++ or Nova shields and FNP... If there is anything in this game that doesn't deserve the listing it has, it's the Riptide in my opinion.

Even the Tau Lore goes against the damn thing... How much BS can one model bring to an army. At least the Wraithknight has a 3+ and are controlled by the spirits of the dead. The Riptide is literally a mechanical Gun Mount walking platform. Why the hell, WHO the hell's idea was it to make it a MC?

I know of no "lore' that goes against large battlesuits. and the Tau dont get a fearless MC. Thats significant. and it sucks in combat. So really the MC designation is there just so that you cant one shot it. makes sense to me. There arent LITERAL wounds on it. Its just a mechanic. But it does allow it to be instant death'd.

**carldooley**

just wait until the gatling psiilencer comes into circulation. I mean, a RANGED force weapon?

**Desubot**

wtnind wrote:
Indeed you are right, it is even more egregiously offensive than how i described it. I intended to highlight it as a particularly overpowered form of the riptide quickly rather than exhaustively list every power it gets.

The R'Vana is also a more OP version of the regular riptide.

What even with the nerfs? buncha ap4 shots and no jet pack

Its kind hard to compare considering it is experimental rules..

**Zagman**

wtnind wrote:
The most egregious riptides are the air? caste ones which get to reroll their nova rolls which effectively gives them a permanent storm shield.

Totally ridiculous.

Ugg, no. Nova charging the shield is the least efficient way to use an ECPA Riptide. The ECPA needs to be on an HBC Riptide, and it needs to be Nova Charging its HBC every turn unless a Ripplefire or Thrust move is necessary. Putting it on an IA RIptide is inefficient.

And even so, its 30 pts which is fairly balanced for what it brings.

I honestly can't really recall the last time I NOVA Charged a Shield on a Riptide... I think it was against a Khorne Rush with ID melee weapons at the Renegade Open GT and I was using them as Tarpits. Or was it another game at the Renegade tarpitting a ScreamerStar.... I think it was Tarpitting the Screamerstar.

I don't think I've used the Nova Charged Shield outside of needing it in melee to Tarpit something nasty.

**BoomWolf**

Actually, the ECPA is undercosted, and its a good thing its a relic, if you could have as many as you want it would be broken.

After all, it saves the HBCtide about 2.5 wounds during the course of the game by itself-not even counting the effects of the improved firepower. all things included, its worth 50 points in my opinion.

HOWEVER, looking at it as a "storm shield" is silly, as all you get there is a 210 (or more) model that is impossible to kill with any level of efficiency, but have the firepower of units half its cost.

Desubot-he meant the nerfs from V1 to V2. in V1 it had 4++ (V2 5++), and was AP3 (V2 AP4) along with minor other changes. it was also a bit cheaper, and had more wargear options.

So as the Revana stands now, he is still very good at glancing down light transports and punishing very bulky models or 4+ MCs, high model count of very bulky models is also punished, and hordes are taking a decent beating with 2 large blasts.

Anything with a decent save is still relatively safe though, even with cluster fire.
Basic marines won't take nearly as much damage as comparable cost firepower of other sources will deal, nor will terminators (no cluster fire effect), and even with cluster fire heavy tanks and fortifications won't care much. in a way the Ravana punishes you more the more you deviate from "simple units"

**GoliothOnline**

Jancoran wrote:
GoliothOnline wrote:
My personal hatred towards Riptides wouldn't be so malicious if they weren't MCs.

A walker, sure. Give it AV 13. Least then you aren't wasting 5+ Lascannon shots to kill the damn thing just for it to shrug them off with 5++ or Nova shields and FNP... If there is anything in this game that doesn't deserve the listing it has, it's the Riptide in my opinion.

Even the Tau Lore goes against the damn thing... How much BS can one model bring to an army. At least the Wraithknight has a 3+ and are controlled by the spirits of the dead. The Riptide is literally a mechanical Gun Mount walking platform. Why the hell, WHO the hell's idea was it to make it a MC?

I know of no "lore' that goes against large battlesuits. and the Tau dont get a fearless MC. Thats significant. and it sucks in combat. So really the MC designation is there just so that you cant one shot it. makes sense to me. There arent LITERAL wounds on it. Its just a mechanic. But it does allow it to be instant death'd.

It was stated in (IIRC) the last codex that all attempts to create larger "Battle suit" variants were disastrous and that Tau as a species were more inclined to use smaller more tactically sound battle suits for several dozen reason. One being that resources prohibited them from maintaining scientific advantages other armies have in psychic-ly-powered mechanisms and that the slow reaction time from a machine, piston powered entity-less man operated battle suit was simply not viable. Don't take my word on that, it might have been from a book as well. But I specifically remember reading THAT.

But explain to me why a Soul Grinder that is literally a Daemon with self regenerating warp mechanisms (No idea how this works, but it sounds like memory foam repair lol) ISNT a MC for the same reason? I mean, if the damn thing is just as much if not MORE flesh than it is Metal, why is it considered a Machine and not a Monstrous Creature? Honestly, from my view, someone should go through every dex and model and re-write all MC and Walker models to be appropriate models. Dreadknights should be Walkers. Riptides should be Walkers. Soul Grinders should be MCs.

**BoomWolf**

All PREVIOUS attempts could very well fail-but attempts WERE made, over and over.
The riptide is the newest addition to the tau empire army after all, aside of currently running experiments.

Remeber that the Tau are not only the only race advancing thier technology still, but that they do it in an alarmingly fast rate. it took them mere 10000 years to reach from fire to spacecrafts, for real world comparison we got fire about a million years ago-and still don't have meaningful spacecrafts.
What was not possible for the Tau empire in 40001, may very well be in 40011.

As for the soul grinder, I honestly have NO idea why its not an MC, it SHOULD be. dreadknights are borderline cases, because they ARE just bigger power armor, and riptides as well, as they are just bigger crisis suits.
If anything, I'd drop the whole walker type and make them all various types of MCs.

**Mr Morden**

Dreadknights should be Walkers. Riptides should be Walkers

Yep but then they wouldn't sell some many of them as they would be balanced.................

**wtnind**

Zagman wrote:

And even so, its 30 pts which is fairly balanced for what it brings.

Guess we will just have to disagree on that one.

**GoliothOnline**

Mr Morden wrote:
Dreadknights should be Walkers. Riptides should be Walkers

Yep but then they wouldn't sell some many of them as they would be balanced.................

which makes me wonder, did they change the Hell Turkey because they had already sold a great deal of them? Were their store out of them? lol I guess so... "STOP BUYING OUR CRAP! LOOK! They're not as cheese-wizz as they used to be....No we didn't do this purposely, what are you talking about?" haha

**Mr Morden**

GoliothOnline wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Dreadknights should be Walkers. Riptides should be Walkers

Yep but then they wouldn't sell some many of them as they would be balanced.................

which makes me wonder, did they change the Hell Turkey because they had already sold a great deal of them? Were their store out of them? lol I guess so... "STOP BUYING OUR CRAP! LOOK! They're not as cheese-wizz as they used to be....No we didn't do this purposely, what are you talking about?" haha

yeah they are pretty wierd sometimes..............

**wtnind**

Could it be the same reason they made Dread Knights a 2 per detatchment (if you want the turn 1 deep strike)?

Nahhhhh...

**krodarklorr**

Riptides are honestly more of a nuisance, now that people can't put a buffmander with them. You're better off ignoring them and focus firing other things they have. Yeah, they have decent firepower, but take out the weak markerlights and they're pretty much useless, even in combat.

**LordBlades**

BoomWolf wrote:
it took them mere 10000 years to reach from fire to spacecrafts, for real world comparison we got fire about a million years ago-and still don't have meaningful spacecrafts.
What was not possible for the Tau empire in 40001, may very well be in 40011.

It was more like 6000 years IIRC.

WH40k Wikia wrote:
What is known is that only 6,000 standard years ago, in the 35th Millennium, an Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator fleet had discovered the Tau homeworld of T'au and determined that its population of sentient xenos were a primitive people at the Stone Age level of development who had only just mastered fire.

**BoomWolf**

Stone age, but already had fire for a while.

**BlaxicanX**

BoomWolf wrote:
HBC, not BBC. HEAVY burst cannon. not a news station.

Anyway, the "HBC with toys" argument was already covered before, math-wise it showed that the riptide, while not using NOVA, just fails to produce meaningful damage in either shooting or CC compared to its cost, making his impressive hull and movement skills quite very relevant, yet when you DO turn on the NOVA for constant HBC overcharge, you get decent levels of firepower, yet at the cost of reducing the riptide's own bulky defenses into a less-then-impressive status, costs compared (it deals an average of 3.33 wounds to itself during a game with constant overcharging, so its almost like a 1.66W T6 in termi armor in the final count.)

The HBC is actually a wonder of proper balance and decision making, as you get a unit that has medicore offense and great defense, and can shift some of its defense for a boost in offense, but every shot you want to make stronger, means you will lose more of your defense. the IA however, easily gets both as he does not need to activate NOVA in order to get the damage going, and even if he does he takes less damage from it (1 gets hot roll every turn compared to 12 gets hot shots every turn. that alone is about 1.166 wounds per game difference even if you did constantly overcharge for some reason)

You can make the HBCtide shine with making good calls of when to overcharge, and when to settle for less damage and just not take the pain for it. it might fail you sometimes with NOVA derp, but on average it will work out when you make good calls. bad calls (overcharging when you don't need to, or not overcharging when you should) will make it under-perform though, and with the added point that the range is not amazing (not BAD mind you, but not incredible), you have to put yourself at some level of risk of return fire at least from heavy weapons in order to attack-making it a high-skill unit that requires good decision making to make the most of, unlike its IA brother who is nearly a no-brainer "use non-NOVA blast every turn, never have to get remotely close so you are never in any danger" (almost, as in rare cases you are better off using other shots, but even these cases are rather obvious)

I don't know man, am I just failing to articulate my point well enough?

How well the Riptide performs in a vacuum is irrelevant. What's important is its performance compared to other Monstrous Creatures. In that context, the Riptide is deliriously undercosted. Yeah, it's only killing 2 MEQ/6 GEQ per turn on average with its base weapons, but A) it can swap out the SMS with twin-linked weapons that are much deadlier for free, and B) even with its standard HBC/SMS it's still outkilling the Wraithknight (~1 dead MEQ/ 1 dead GEQ per turn, only a 1/9 chance of inflicting instant death per round of shooting and an average of 1 hull-point removal per turn on AV12) and a Trygon despite costing from 10 to 60 points less than its peers. And that's just in addition to having a 2+sv, jet-pack movement and an invulnerable save.

There's no justification for its points cost compared to the other Monstrous Creatures in the game.

**BoomWolf**

You just made the most purposely skewed comparison possible. you are trying to "prove" your point, and you don't seem to mind presenting very, VERY partial data to support it. its like I'd make a poll about something, but report only the votes I like.

First, you completely ignore the fact that both the wraithknight and the trygon ludicrously out-preform riptides in CC.
Riptide's CC profile is WS2 I2 A3
Trygon has WS5 I4 A5
Wraithknight features WS4 I5 A4 and unlike the other two, he has S10

Then when you DO compare the firepower (riptide's own speciality, as his CC is lacking)-you use the target the riptide favors the most, yet wraithknight hates the most? how much more biased can you get?
How about we compare ranged firepower against wraithknights/riptides themselves. I'll be bet that the still 1-2 wounds the wraithknight does are more than the riptide's who is unlikely to cause a single wound without a NOVA.
Who about against targets with AV? because his 2 S10AP2 shots are far better then the riptide's shots, even if he got his NOVA on, against anything with better then 10/11.

Wraithknight is not even a good comparison, as he costs alot more, but he DOES out-shoot a riptide against the right targets (as in, not freaking infantry), and is one of the best CC units in the game, where the riptide is not even on the list.

Then the trygon, heavens forbid why you bothered to even note his shooting when he does not give a damn about shooting to begin with, he's an assault MC. pure assault. that had some gimmek deployment trick of subterrainian assault to allow others to follow in after his DS (use it to bring point-blank shooters from reserves into midfield/backfield)

**Runic**

To answer the OP, riptides are good because they shoot very well ( and if they roll good on their overcharge special rules, they shoot really hard ) and they have very good mobility.

Next to this I think they require 6 wounds to die ( including the drones they have, which usually have to be killed off first. )

**Jancoran**

On the actual field of battle with dice flying, there arent a lot of units that can be the versatile thing a Riptide is. So whether because it is a hit sync or because it does actual damage, its doing good things for the army.. I have found no problem with them other than one thing: you dont actually NEED them in the force. So they are a rae bird because without them, you can be all kinds of comp0etitice and with them you will be also. There no real drop off either way. So if theres an argument against them I suppose its just that you dont ACTUALLY need to take them. they're nice ot have but the Tau codex has all the strategies it could ever want.

**Asura Varuna**

The dreadkinght can take 2 of the same ranged weapons in the new book. 240ish points gets you a T6 4W 2+/4++ MC with 5 S10 CC attacks, AND 12 S7 AP4 Rending shots at BS4 from two Heavy Psycannons. And it has jump movement and it can deepstrike turn 1, and it can shunt.

Compared to the HBC Riptide, it's permeable overcharged, higher BS, higher strength, doesn't get hot, is faster, massively better in combat etc etc

Dreadknights are going to be brutal.

**vipoid**

Asura Varuna wrote:
The dreadkinght can take 2 of the same ranged weapons in the new book. 240ish points gets you a T6 4W 2+/4++ MC with 5 S10 CC attacks, AND 12 S7 AP4 Rending shots at BS4 from two Heavy Psycannons.

Wait... it can have 2 Heavy Psycannons and still get S10 melee attacks?

**BoomWolf**

No, he cant. where do people keep bringing it? its written outright that he can take each option once.

Going back to riptide-never said the HBC riptide is a BAD unit, its still a very solid unit that does its thing well, and gives the tau a much needed durable presence, but the point is, he is not "overpowered" as some like to refer to him.
Its seriusly just a leak of hatered that emenates from the IA riptides to the HBC riptides, most people who complain about them never even saw one in game, because nobody bothers taking them-the IA is THAT much stronger from reasons they don't even understand (the fact he doesn't use NOVA with it), and easily worth 40 point upgrade.