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 Psienesis wrote:

The problem with exposed joints is simple. The metal the Destroyer is made out of is so tough so anything less than shooting it in the 'eye' won't do any real damage, unless you bring starship-grade firepower. (Or unless you're Kalros, but Kalros is Kalros, so yeah.) When it is in space, it is protected by kinetic barriers just like its larger capital ship cousin. Unfortunately these kinetic barriers can only be kept at a minimum for the Reapers to land.

Which is also why a Titan doesn't care for the Reaper's super-hot-metal-cannon...

It's a Titan. It's meters thick of space-metal "adamantium". What is adamantium? Who the feth knows, it's fictional!

We do know it's a naturally occurring element, so it also breaks physics. Either the periodic table needs to be reworked or adamantanium would somehow be stable despite having a hundred and nineteen protons. It should be crazy radioactive and decaying the instant it comes into existence.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

The problem with exposed joints is simple. The metal the Destroyer is made out of is so tough so anything less than shooting it in the 'eye' won't do any real damage, unless you bring starship-grade firepower. (Or unless you're Kalros, but Kalros is Kalros, so yeah.) When it is in space, it is protected by kinetic barriers just like its larger capital ship cousin. Unfortunately these kinetic barriers can only be kept at a minimum for the Reapers to land.

Which is also why a Titan doesn't care for the Reaper's super-hot-metal-cannon...

It's a Titan. It's meters thick of space-metal "adamantium". What is adamantium? Who the feth knows, it's fictional!

We do know it's a naturally occurring element, so it also breaks physics. Either the periodic table needs to be reworked or adamantanium would somehow be stable despite having a hundred and nineteen protons. It should be crazy radioactive and decaying the instant it comes into existence.

Mass Effect at least uses technobabble to justify their insanities!

Seriously, I have no idea what bending space-time to reduce mass even does, so it at least does not break my suspension of disbelief.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

The problem with exposed joints is simple. The metal the Destroyer is made out of is so tough so anything less than shooting it in the 'eye' won't do any real damage, unless you bring starship-grade firepower. (Or unless you're Kalros, but Kalros is Kalros, so yeah.) When it is in space, it is protected by kinetic barriers just like its larger capital ship cousin. Unfortunately these kinetic barriers can only be kept at a minimum for the Reapers to land.

Which is also why a Titan doesn't care for the Reaper's super-hot-metal-cannon...

It's a Titan. It's meters thick of space-metal "adamantium". What is adamantium? Who the feth knows, it's fictional!

We do know it's a naturally occurring element, so it also breaks physics. Either the periodic table needs to be reworked or adamantanium would somehow be stable despite having a hundred and nineteen protons. It should be crazy radioactive and decaying the instant it comes into existence.

This is yet another reason why 40K is not science-fiction but science-fantasy.

Actually, there is a theorized band of stable super heavy elements that has been predicted to exist. IIRC the elements in that area would be somewhere around the 200-250 proton count. A narrow band of possibly stable super heavy elements. Weather they might be naturally occurring or would have to be artificially created is unknown.

Besides, its all just educated speculation that elements beyond what we have already discovered would be too unstable to remain whole for very long.

It is entirely possible that, for some unknown reason, there are more stable bands of elements beyond what we know. Maybe once you get 150+ Protons they self stabilize into inert super heavy elements.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

The problem with exposed joints is simple. The metal the Destroyer is made out of is so tough so anything less than shooting it in the 'eye' won't do any real damage, unless you bring starship-grade firepower. (Or unless you're Kalros, but Kalros is Kalros, so yeah.) When it is in space, it is protected by kinetic barriers just like its larger capital ship cousin. Unfortunately these kinetic barriers can only be kept at a minimum for the Reapers to land.

Which is also why a Titan doesn't care for the Reaper's super-hot-metal-cannon...

It's a Titan. It's meters thick of space-metal "adamantium". What is adamantium? Who the feth knows, it's fictional!

We do know it's a naturally occurring element, so it also breaks physics. Either the periodic table needs to be reworked or adamantanium would somehow be stable despite having a hundred and nineteen protons. It should be crazy radioactive and decaying the instant it comes into existence.

This is yet another reason why 40K is not science-fiction but science-fantasy.

The only handwavium response I can think of is that maybe it was some super special metal alloy made by the Old Ones, Eldar Empire, Necrontyr, or somebody in the past that was deposited into the planets in a large portion of the galaxy, giving it the appearance of a naturally occurring ore.

Side note, but much of the reason that the Reaper destroyer is so much larger than the Titan is that it is not designed as a walker, but is in fact a small starship with a walker mode. Star comparing the reapers to 40K starships and they rapidly shrink in comparison- your basic escort is 1-2 Km long, and then you have your 8-10 Km battleships, and then the rarer Gloriana and Abyss class super-battle barges at 16+ Km long.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Side note, but much of the reason that the Reaper destroyer is so much larger than the Titan is that it is not designed as a walker, but is in fact a small starship with a walker mode. Star comparing the reapers to 40K starships and they rapidly shrink in comparison- your basic escort is 1-2 Km long, and then you have your 8-10 Km battleships, and then the rarer Gloriana and Abyss class super-battle barges at 16+ Km long.

Don't forge the planetoid sized star fortresses that are pretty much better versions of the Death Stars.

Comparing to fictional universes basically boils down into two kids yelling "Nuh huh!"

 jreilly89 wrote:
Comparing to fictional universes basically boils down into two kids yelling "Nuh huh!"

Not really, when there are clear differences of weapon yields, it's pretty clear cut who would win. For example, the average battleship in 40K puts out terratons of energy with basic weapons like lances or macro cannons... which have the firepower to blow up and raze continents with single barrages. 40k weapons also have an unusually realistic range for most Science Fantasy, with firing arcs extending into the hundreds of thousands of kilometers, with "knife fighting" ranges happening IIRC at around a hundred thousand kilometers. Mass Effect in space has lower range (while still large compared to say, star wars).... but their weapons range from the megatons to kilotons, which would only tickle even "tiny" ships like Cobra Destroyers. On the ground, Titans range from the kilotons all the way to gigatons, so in a fight, ME would be in a sorry state.

Titans are actually very small, about the size of a man.

Their perception as being large vehicles in myths and legends.

 Psienesis wrote:

The problem with exposed joints is simple. The metal the Destroyer is made out of is so tough so anything less than shooting it in the 'eye' won't do any real damage, unless you bring starship-grade firepower. (Or unless you're Kalros, but Kalros is Kalros, so yeah.) When it is in space, it is protected by kinetic barriers just like its larger capital ship cousin. Unfortunately these kinetic barriers can only be kept at a minimum for the Reapers to land.

Which is also why a Titan doesn't care for the Reaper's super-hot-metal-cannon...

It's a Titan. It's meters thick of space-metal "adamantium". What is adamantium? Who the feth knows, it's fictional!

My fictional material is stronger than your fictional material.

GW is awesome when it comes to Titans because it gloriously ignores most physics or common sense. The same Warlord Titan that is mounting a Volcano Cannon or a gigantic Plasma variant also might have a gigantic Power Fist as it's other arm, and there is a large certainty that it will be able to use such a thing, even when most Titans have capitol ship-scale weapons and should easily operate at many-kilometer ranges.

Mass Effect might have the rules of science, but Epic-scale 40K has always had the Rule of Cool to trump any inconsistencies.

For evidence, see absolutely everything Ork-related in Epic-scale, Gargants above all else.

 Ashiraya wrote:


And if you're telling me nothing will survive into melee range with the Titan, then why are some Titans equipped with melee weapons?

My best guess would be in case the Titan goes up against another Titan, clearing obstacles away, or engaging other enemies too close to safely fire.

As stated before, the subject of titanic machines going around punching/shooting/disintegrating each other is by no means under the jurisdiction of the laws of physics, only the rule of cool. It's the same reason people millenia in the future are beating one another to death with energised sticks and chainsaw hands, as opposed to engaging from miles away with laser cannons and the like. As long as it looks awesome, has a badass name, and gets a model everyone clamours to buy, it could defy the basic laws of nature and physics and no one would bat an eye.

Just let the people enjoy their goddamn skyscraper-sized Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots already!

Well, given that there are a lot of very large urban areas in the 41st millennium, it would be a common thing for a Titan to come across another Titan at very close range with little to no warning.

And given the immense destructive power of their ranged weapons, having those payloads going off within 20-30 meters of yourself could be a very bad idea. Even if it didn't damage your engine, it could ruin their footing or otherwise immobilize them. Thus a melee weapon would be the preferable choice.

The melee weapon would also have the utility of giving you a way to destroy obstructions in your way without wasting ammo.

Titan melee weapons were probably a logical result of Titans being originally equipped with large wrecking balls or cutting clamps to allow them to remove obstructions from their path that would be too large, or dangerous, to just walk through. And they doubled as weapons that need no ammunition and didn't give off massive heat signatures that would expose your location.

Titans don't rely on visual identification to detect threats. They use auspex, sound-detecting equipment and heat-signature detection primarily. The presence of large line-of-sight blockers such as high buildings wouldn't inhibit those instruments.

That said, Titans "ambushing" other Titans by doing silly stuff like hiding in wreckage happens frequently in the fluff. It just... shouldn't.

When there's lots of firepower thrown around, melee combat is usually a poor choice if you are slow. On the scale of Titan VS Titan combat, Titans certainly are not fast in the slightest, but they have lots of firepower.

For a comparison, look at the current firepower-heavy state of 40K. How are slow melee units (Footslogging meganobs or assault centurions, for example) doing?

 Psienesis wrote:
And a Titan's void-shield doesn't care how much molten metal you throw at it, it just sends it into the Warp...

... and then it tears the Reaper a new b-hole (several of them, in fact) with its Megabolter, which fires *massive* armor-piercing, mass-reactive explosive shells.

Or it just ends the Reaper with its Volcano Cannon, which shears through it like a hot knife through butter.

Basically, while many other sci-fi/sci-fantasy settings might be more advanced than 40K, it bears to remember that most-complex computer in the universe can be rendered useless by liberal application of the common hammer.

The Imperium often makes up for its lack of technology with sheer, unrelenting, unforgiving brutality.

The Tau have no problems killing Titans with railguns and missiles. Heck- the Tiger Shark AX-1-0 is probably the best anti-Titan weapon in the galaxy, given its relative immunity to the targeting systems of Titans (and ease of construction), and it seems to use mostly Mass Effect-level technology.

You know...mines bigger.


Size only matters if you need it to add a bigger engine, or more armor, or a heavier gun.

Well, in terms of technology, looking at the descriptions of things... the standard Mass Effect personal firearm is basically a shuriken catapult, so that actually gives us a frame of reference suddenly.

A reaper is also a spaceship, that probably adds to its size.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Titans don't rely on visual identification to detect threats. They use auspex, sound-detecting equipment and heat-signature detection primarily. The presence of large line-of-sight blockers such as high buildings wouldn't inhibit those instruments.

That said, Titans "ambushing" other Titans by doing silly stuff like hiding in wreckage happens frequently in the fluff. It just... shouldn't.

Modern Tanks don't rely on visual identification, but they can still hide from each other if there are environmental effects that are distorting the signals they are giving off.

Buildings on fire or just a hot day can confuse heat sensors. Especially if the vehicle that is hiding is deliberately limiting its emissions.

Energy readings could be distorted by the same methods or ambient radiation(which would be common in 40k)

And particular building materials can just completely block signals.

Not to mention any deliberate counter measures such as scan blocking particles or sensor jamming.

Read Titanicus for some great examples of environmental impact on Titan scanners.


A titan that isn't moving and has all systems running at minimum will put out very little signal, at least far less than what would confirm the presence of a titan.

And even if you know where it is, that doesn't mean your guns will be able to damage it. The intervening terrain would still absorb energy from your weapons, enough to potentially make them no longer damaging to the Titan.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Comparing to fictional universes basically boils down into two kids yelling "Nuh huh!"

Not really, when there are clear differences of weapon yields, it's pretty clear cut who would win. For example, the average battleship in 40K puts out terratons of energy with basic weapons like lances or macro cannons... which have the firepower to blow up and raze continents with single barrages. 40k weapons also have an unusually realistic range for most Science Fantasy, with firing arcs extending into the hundreds of thousands of kilometers, with "knife fighting" ranges happening IIRC at around a hundred thousand kilometers. Mass Effect in space has lower range (while still large compared to say, star wars).... but their weapons range from the megatons to kilotons, which would only tickle even "tiny" ships like Cobra Destroyers. On the ground, Titans range from the kilotons all the way to gigatons, so in a fight, ME would be in a sorry state.

Yes, but as much as GW rewrites their lore, it's tough to pin them down. Mass Effect is at least consistent with their lore, just not their endings.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Modern Tanks don't rely on visual identification, but they can still hide from each other if there are environmental effects that are distorting the signals they are giving off.

Buildings on fire or just a hot day can confuse heat sensors. Especially if the vehicle that is hiding is deliberately limiting its emissions.

Energy readings could be distorted by the same methods or ambient radiation(which would be common in 40k)

And particular building materials can just completely block signals.

Not to mention any deliberate counter measures such as scan blocking particles or sensor jamming.

Read Titanicus for some great examples of environmental impact on Titan scanners.


A titan that isn't moving and has all systems running at minimum will put out very little signal, at least far less than what would confirm the presence of a titan.

And even if you know where it is, that doesn't mean your guns will be able to damage it. The intervening terrain would still absorb energy from your weapons, enough to potentially make them no longer damaging to the Titan.

The problem with comparisons to real-world situations is that we're operating on two such massively opposite ends of the tech-scale that the fundamentals don't apply for both. Yeah, a burning building can hide the thermal signature of a tank, but that's because a tank isn't bleeding heat from a reactor that's generating so much energy that the explosion from a breach can "leave a crater visible from orbit". There is no amount of heat or interference from natural occurrences like burning buildings or radiation that can mask the signature of something as powerful as a Titan unless you're fighting inside a volcano or in the middle of a solar flare or something, lol. Counter-measures work great against things that can be jammed, like radios or auxpes. A device as simple as a seismograph or a high-powered directional microphone can't be jammed, though.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sure there a variety of circumstances that can lead to a Titan more or less being blind. But, those circumstances would be very obscure and unusual.

TItanicus is what I'm referring to when I say that there's a fluff precedent for Titans ambushing one another. A very disappointing book imo. It falls prey to Abnett's insistence on making everything some World War 2-esque "run up to the other guy and punch each other/shoot each other at point-blank range" that permeates 40K. While I guess one could say that 40K is basically WW2 in space by design, I'd always felt that Titans were the ground equivalent of Naval warfare in 40K, which is to say that their tactics would be a bit more modern. Instead we got a book where every Titan-duel more or less ended with the two machines sprinting at full speed toward one another spamming bullets until the other guy fell down, occasionally finishing them off with a power-fist clobbering.

Really disappointing, to me.

Actually there is some debate about the actual size of an Imperator titan. Some authors claim them to be 170m tall while others claim them to be around about 40m tall. It's all about which author you believe.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Maybe they don't make Titans bigger because at some point they would be too heavy to actually get anywhere?

They, along with everything else larger that a CRASSUS, use antigravs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, there is a theorized band of stable super heavy elements that has been predicted to exist. IIRC the elements in that area would be somewhere around the 200-250 proton count. A narrow band of possibly stable super heavy elements. Weather they might be naturally occurring or would have to be artificially created is unknown.

Besides, its all just educated speculation that elements beyond what we have already discovered would be too unstable to remain whole for very long.

It is entirely possible that, for some unknown reason, there are more stable bands of elements beyond what we know. Maybe once you get 150+ Protons they self stabilize into inert super heavy elements.

And as a bonus, no rusting!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Titans are actually very small, about the size of a man.

Their perception as being large vehicles in myths and legends.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Counter-measures work great against things that can be jammed, like radios or auxpes. A device as simple as a seismograph or a high-powered directional microphone can't be jammed, though.

If you don't move (wating in ambush) then the seismograph can't detect anything.

Maybe Titans can make their void fields vibrate at the exactly correct frequency to prevent significant sound radiation.

Titans might have plasma reactors, but maybe their shielding can also prevent any external emissions. Maybe they carry tonnes of passive coolant that they can use to absorb heat, rather than discharging it to atmosphere. Maybe they can just dump all their emissions and stuff that might be detected into the warp for a while. This being uber-magic science tech land if you can think of it, you can prove it to be true...

The practical upshot is that any argument one can come up with as to why Titan melee is unfeasible can be countered by a reference to something I just made up that can't be proven to be untrue.

 Flinty wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Counter-measures work great against things that can be jammed, like radios or auxpes. A device as simple as a seismograph or a high-powered directional microphone can't be jammed, though.

If you don't move (wating in ambush) then the seismograph can't detect anything.

Maybe Titans can make their void fields vibrate at the exactly correct frequency to prevent significant sound radiation.

Titans might have plasma reactors, but maybe their shielding can also prevent any external emissions. Maybe they carry tonnes of passive coolant that they can use to absorb heat, rather than discharging it to atmosphere. Maybe they can just dump all their emissions and stuff that might be detected into the warp for a while. This being uber-magic science tech land if you can think of it, you can prove it to be true...

The practical upshot is that any argument one can come up with as to why Titan melee is unfeasible can be countered by a reference to something I just made up that can't be proven to be untrue.

I'm unaware of the Tau having any trouble locating Titans during the Damocles Crusade.

Again- the Tau were able to handle Titans well enough. Why would ME have any more trouble than they did?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well, in terms of technology, looking at the descriptions of things... the standard Mass Effect personal firearm is basically a shuriken catapult, so that actually gives us a frame of reference suddenly.

Not really, ME uses what amounts to grains of sand launched at hypersonic speeds from a railgun.... which actually impinges on the damage. The writers clearly didn't really think things out, as a grain of sand at those speeds would cause less damage and rather disintegrate upon impact.There's a reason why actual railguns use fist-sized slugs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Flinty wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Counter-measures work great against things that can be jammed, like radios or auxpes. A device as simple as a seismograph or a high-powered directional microphone can't be jammed, though.

If you don't move (wating in ambush) then the seismograph can't detect anything.

Maybe Titans can make their void fields vibrate at the exactly correct frequency to prevent significant sound radiation.

Titans might have plasma reactors, but maybe their shielding can also prevent any external emissions. Maybe they carry tonnes of passive coolant that they can use to absorb heat, rather than discharging it to atmosphere. Maybe they can just dump all their emissions and stuff that might be detected into the warp for a while. This being uber-magic science tech land if you can think of it, you can prove it to be true...

The practical upshot is that any argument one can come up with as to why Titan melee is unfeasible can be countered by a reference to something I just made up that can't be proven to be untrue.

I'm unaware of the Tau having any trouble locating Titans during the Damocles Crusade.

Again- the Tau were able to handle Titans well enough. Why would ME have any more trouble than they did?

Do you even have any idea of the kind of firepower all factions in 40k put out, including Tau? Yields for 40K in space generally start in the high gigatons, getting up into the terratons. One shot from that kind of power would instantly destroy the entire continent of Australia, and getting up into teratons would wreck all of north america and more. Titans meanwhile have weapon yields in around the megatons and regularly use weapons that would completely ignore kinetic barriers. None of ME's weapons would even have the damage potential to break the Void Shields unless they had a hilariously greater force to outnumber the titan to a point that their combined fire could drop a large titan.

Also, Tau are by no means realistic at all. Along with titans, mechs don't work. The only thing in good design the Tau have going for them are their tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And a Titan's void-shield doesn't care how much molten metal you throw at it, it just sends it into the Warp...

... and then it tears the Reaper a new b-hole (several of them, in fact) with its Megabolter, which fires *massive* armor-piercing, mass-reactive explosive shells.

Or it just ends the Reaper with its Volcano Cannon, which shears through it like a hot knife through butter.

Basically, while many other sci-fi/sci-fantasy settings might be more advanced than 40K, it bears to remember that most-complex computer in the universe can be rendered useless by liberal application of the common hammer.

The Imperium often makes up for its lack of technology with sheer, unrelenting, unforgiving brutality.

The Tau have no problems killing Titans with railguns and missiles. Heck- the Tiger Shark AX-1-0 is probably the best anti-Titan weapon in the galaxy, given its relative immunity to the targeting systems of Titans (and ease of construction), and it seems to use mostly Mass Effect-level technology.

You can of course cite multiple sources to back up this claim that the AX 1-0 has confirmed kills of Warlord Titans, and not Wardhounds which aren't impressive at all, considering even a basic squad of space marines with a land raider can kill a warlord?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well, in terms of technology, looking at the descriptions of things... the standard Mass Effect personal firearm is basically a shuriken catapult, so that actually gives us a frame of reference suddenly.

Not really, ME uses what amounts to grains of sand launched at hypersonic speeds from a railgun.... which actually impinges on the damage. The writers clearly didn't really think things out, as a grain of sand at those speeds would cause less damage and rather disintegrate upon impact.There's a reason why actual railguns use fist-sized slugs.

No, no they don't. They fire shards of metal, not grains of sand.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well, in terms of technology, looking at the descriptions of things... the standard Mass Effect personal firearm is basically a shuriken catapult, so that actually gives us a frame of reference suddenly.

Not really, ME uses what amounts to grains of sand launched at hypersonic speeds from a railgun.... which actually impinges on the damage. The writers clearly didn't really think things out, as a grain of sand at those speeds would cause less damage and rather disintegrate upon impact.There's a reason why actual railguns use fist-sized slugs.

No, no they don't. They fire shards of metal, not grains of sand.

Which are the size of a grain of sand...