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Made in pr
Longtime Dakkanaut




Minneapolis, MN

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Tactical_Genius wrote:
 TheKbob wrote:
a statistical average of always penning a Land Raider

That's not quite how averages work.


4d6 averages 14.


To expand on this:

The old turbo-penetrator rounds had a 44% chance of penetrating a Land Raider, and a 33% chance of getting an Explodes result.

The new turbo-penetrator rounds have a 33% chance of Penetrating a Land Raider, and a 17% chance of getting an Explodes result. Still decent, but not nearly as reliable as it used to be.
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Tactical_Genius wrote:
 TheKbob wrote:
a statistical average of always penning a Land Raider

That's not quite how averages work.


4d6 averages 14.


That's a statistical average of 'Glancing' a land raider.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/24 07:43:12


 
   
Made in gb
Rough Rider with Boomstick



Wiltshire

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Tactical_Genius wrote:
 TheKbob wrote:
a statistical average of always penning a Land Raider

That's not quite how averages work.

4d6 averages 14.

Yes, but that's not what I have issue with.
You can't use the word "average" and the word "always" to talk about the same outcome unless there is only one possible outcome.
What he should have said was that "on average it will pen a land raider" or "it will pen a land raider more often than not".
Saying that it has a "statistical average of always penning a land raider" is incorrect.

Note to the reader: my username is not arrogance. No, my name is taken from the most excellent of commanders: Lord Castellan Creed, of the Imperial Guar- I mean Astra Militarum - who has a special rule known only as "Tactical Genius"... Although nowhere near as awesome as before, it now allows some cool stuff for the Guar- Astra Militarum - player. FEAR ME AND MY TWO WARLORD TRAITS. 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Tactical_Genius wrote:
 TheKbob wrote:
a statistical average of always penning a Land Raider

That's not quite how averages work.


4d6 averages 14.


That's a statistical average of 'Glancing' a land raider.


+3 Str from Sniper. And rending.

I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!

Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
 
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan






Austin, Texas.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Tactical_Genius wrote:
 TheKbob wrote:
a statistical average of always penning a Land Raider

That's not quite how averages work.

4d6 averages 14.

Yes, but that's not what I have issue with.
You can't use the word "average" and the word "always" to talk about the same outcome unless there is only one possible outcome.
What he should have said was that "on average it will pen a land raider" or "it will pen a land raider more often than not".
Saying that it has a "statistical average of always penning a land raider" is incorrect.


His wording was weird

I do drugs.
Mostly Plastic Crack, but I do dabble in Cardboard Cocaine. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Not seeing the staline nerf, they were bs8 etc previously, just lost 6+FNP

Strict nerf to dead shot, as you couldn't reallocate at all previously, but again isn't a shock.

Kbob- hellfire did one wound last time, same as now. Turbo pen was 2w, now d3', so a wash. However as he out ranges, comfortably, lascannon this should babe an issue, and no cover is HUGE

Essentially the rest got a buff, and are actually useful it seems. A good ati psyker unit is fab.
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Woodbridge, VA

 Deadshot wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Tactical_Genius wrote:
 TheKbob wrote:
a statistical average of always penning a Land Raider

That's not quite how averages work.


4d6 averages 14.


That's a statistical average of 'Glancing' a land raider.


+3 Str from Sniper. And rending.


Yep, everyone always forgets that Sniper rifles have a ST value when shooting at vehicles. So you only needed to roll a 12 or higher to penetrate AV 14.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Deadshot wrote:

AP2 was expected. When last updated AP1 gave +1 on the damage table and AP2 gave nothing. Now AP2 gives what AP1 used to. D Weapons also had +1damage in 5th Ed and when they got updated for 6th they lost that part because all D weapons were at least AP2.


Well, no, the AP2 on it now (in 7th) actually gives us the old chart from 6th with zero bonuses. To put it in numbers, we now need a 6 to blow something up where in 6th we only needed a 5. So yeah, that's a nerf. Leaving it at AP1 would have made it the same as 6th with the new damage chart in effect.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/25 16:23:22


Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

 don_mondo wrote:
 Deadshot wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Tactical_Genius wrote:
 TheKbob wrote:
a statistical average of always penning a Land Raider

That's not quite how averages work.


4d6 averages 14.


That's a statistical average of 'Glancing' a land raider.


+3 Str from Sniper. And rending.


Yep, everyone always forgets that Sniper rifles have a ST value when shooting at vehicles. So you only needed to roll a 12 or higher to penetrate AV 14.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Deadshot wrote:

AP2 was expected. When last updated AP1 gave +1 on the damage table and AP2 gave nothing. Now AP2 gives what AP1 used to. D Weapons also had +1damage in 5th Ed and when they got updated for 6th they lost that part because all D weapons were at least AP2.


Well, no, the AP2 on it now (in 7th) actually gives us the old chart from 6th with zero bonuses. To put it in numbers, we now need a 6 to blow something up where in 6th we only needed a 5. So yeah, that's a nerf. Leaving it at AP1 would have made it the same as 6th with the new damage chart in effect.


And you have the same setup as 5th, where you have +1 on the chart. That is the intention. 6th buffed it, and the new Codex put it back where it was.

I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!

Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Woodbridge, VA

 Deadshot wrote:


And you have the same setup as 5th, where you have +1 on the chart. That is the intention. 6th buffed it, and the new Codex put it back where it was.


No, it made it worse. Before, a Vindicare destroyed a vehicle on a damage chart roll of a 5 (penetrating hit). Now it needs a 6. No way that a 5 and a 6 are the same thing, so they certainly did not "put it back where it was". It was already there, and they weakened it. To put it another way. +1 on the chart back in 5th and 6th is the same as +2 on the chart in 7th.

Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






 Crimson wrote:
I'm glad to hear that it isn't just a copy-paste of the old rules. I'm pleasantly surprised.


Bringing this back for a sec but Seriously im surprised as well.


So far of the two games iv gotten in with them all

Clux > Evesor > Cal > Vind


The vind did absolutly nothing and the cal didnt do much before exploding to retaliation fire

the Clux and Evesor however really helped me out against my DP problems.

the - LD, F U Psyker bubble, fleshbany attacks and ID punches took out a fully kitted Nurgle biker lord and a DP of Nurgle that never got iron arm off

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

 don_mondo wrote:
 Deadshot wrote:


And you have the same setup as 5th, where you have +1 on the chart. That is the intention. 6th buffed it, and the new Codex put it back where it was.


No, it made it worse. Before, a Vindicare destroyed a vehicle on a damage chart roll of a 5 (penetrating hit). Now it needs a 6. No way that a 5 and a 6 are the same thing, so they certainly did not "put it back where it was". It was already there, and they weakened it. To put it another way. +1 on the chart back in 5th and 6th is the same as +2 on the chart in 7th.


Except that 7th was supposed to make vehicles hard to destroy. That's why. Plain and simple.

I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!

Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Woodbridge, VA

 Deadshot wrote:
 don_mondo wrote:
 Deadshot wrote:


And you have the same setup as 5th, where you have +1 on the chart. That is the intention. 6th buffed it, and the new Codex put it back where it was.


No, it made it worse. Before, a Vindicare destroyed a vehicle on a damage chart roll of a 5 (penetrating hit). Now it needs a 6. No way that a 5 and a 6 are the same thing, so they certainly did not "put it back where it was". It was already there, and they weakened it. To put it another way. +1 on the chart back in 5th and 6th is the same as +2 on the chart in 7th.


Except that 7th was supposed to make vehicles hard to destroy. That's why. Plain and simple.


Then say that the first time around instead of saying it made it the same as it was. Between the ST 10 and the AP2, yeah, the Vindicare will definitely have a harder time damaging AV 14 vehicles, much less having a chance to destroy one.

Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Well, he's not supposed to be an anti-tank unit, its just a nice added bonus that you can take out smaller tanks, or at least cripple them.

Hes main power, is the "point and click" removal of high value targets on the enemy side, from anywhere, without much you can do about it except killing him-something that is not as simple any more as he doesn't have to be in basically almost bolter range, but can be stuck in a random meaningless corner so anything going to him is going to be stuck there alone later.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




*Point and click click click*... if you want a reliable chance.
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






AP2, ignore cover with -2 to any LoS you might have, then a choice of poison4+ ignore invul, d3 poison4+ wounds or poison2+.

I'd say its a pretty decent chance to kill something of value...

(is it just me or are TP shotsgetting a better average chance to wound than hellfire against ANY target, even one with mere 1 wound?)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/25 18:29:49


can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Anything worth shooting has IC status and/or more than 1 wound and/or a invuln.

Best case scenario (assuming one wound and no invuln)
92% chance to hit.
83% chance to wound (using 2+ ammo)
50% chance of fails LoS

0.92 x 0.83 x 0.5 = 0.38. So 38% chance of a kill. That's best case scenario. Unless you are trying to make your points back shooting spec weapon/sergeants.
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






I was not aware squad weapons, MCs, squad leaders, apopceries, important warlocks, etc are all ICs...

You have seriusly never seen anything valueable that is NOT an IC?

And even if they ARE ICs, only 50% to dodge the bullet. you don't honestly expect him to 1-shot with high reliability things that probably cost more than him?

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Just saying it is not *point and click*, never said it should be a higher percentage. And there are not many 1w non-invuln characters (what the 38% is based on) costing over 150pts. Taking out the right squad leader or special at the right time can be important. But don't expect to directly make your points back if that's all you are shooting.
   
Made in nl
Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

And I think that is fair.
A model that is available to everyone shouldn't be able to kill a 150-point model every single turn.

It's goal is to snipe away that annoying Heavy Weapon, to finish of a wounded model/vehicle or kill low-AV vehicles.
Killing Land Raiders or IC's with one shot is not something you should be guaranteed to do.

I will take the Vindicare and I will prevent Trukks from unloading their troops, that is its role and I think it has the appropriate cost for that job.
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




I totally agree. Was just saying its not point and click.
   
Made in us
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




USA, Maine

Kangodo wrote:
And I think that is fair.
A model that is available to everyone shouldn't be able to kill a 150-point model every single turn.

It's goal is to snipe away that annoying Heavy Weapon, to finish of a wounded model/vehicle or kill low-AV vehicles.
Killing Land Raiders or IC's with one shot is not something you should be guaranteed to do.

I will take the Vindicare and I will prevent Trukks from unloading their troops, that is its role and I think it has the appropriate cost for that job.


I dunno Kang, 150 to pop trukks is serious pointage!

He worked great for me yesterday. Dropped a venomthrope first turn, opening up the field on that side to slaughter piles of termagants. He took off two wounds from a tyrant next turn, missed one turn, and immobilized a hell brute I believe.

I loved the 72" range since when he only shot 36" I was constantly having to deal with laser cannons and multimeltas trying to pop him. With 72" and no cover save, he is much more survivable, though not quite as purely lethal shot for shot. That said, he never needs to move with a 72" range.

Painted armies:

Orks: 11000 points
Marines: 9500 points
Khorne Marines: 2500 points
Khorne Demons: 1500 points 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology

Remember snipers are str 4 in 7th against vehicles!

"We are the Red Sorcerers of Prospero, damned in the eyes of our fellows, and this is to be how our story ends, in betrayal and bloodshed. No...you may find it nobler to suffer your fate, but I will take arms against it." -Ahzek Ahriman
1250 Points of The Prodigal Sons  
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

 changerofways wrote:
Remember snipers are str 4 in 7th against vehicles!


The Turbo-Penetrator is Str 10 vs vehicles and averages a 14 on Armour Penetrations...the others only average 8.

I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!

Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
 
   
Made in nl
Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

 PhillyT wrote:
I dunno Kang, 150 to pop trukks is serious pointage!

He worked great for me yesterday. Dropped a venomthrope first turn, opening up the field on that side to slaughter piles of termagants. He took off two wounds from a tyrant next turn, missed one turn, and immobilized a hell brute I believe.

I loved the 72" range since when he only shot 36" I was constantly having to deal with laser cannons and multimeltas trying to pop him. With 72" and no cover save, he is much more survivable, though not quite as purely lethal shot for shot. That said, he never needs to move with a 72" range.
If that stops a unit of 200 points from reaching my Necron Warrior blobs, it's certainly worth it

It's a combination of everything! Stopping many DT's, sniping Heavy Weapons and Characters, or even trying to kill an IC.
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






 Deadshot wrote:
 changerofways wrote:
Remember snipers are str 4 in 7th against vehicles!


The Turbo-Penetrator is Str 10 vs vehicles and averages a 14 on Armour Penetrations...the others only average 8.


13.5 and 7.5 respectively.
The average not always shows real results.

In any case, the TP deals 1/2 whiffs 1/6 glances and 1/3 pens on AV14, assuming a hit (fair assumption given the BS)
On 13 its 1/3 whiff, 1/6 glance and 1/2 pen.
On 12 its 1/6 whiff, 1/6 glance 2/3 pen.
On 11 is 1/6 glance and 2/3 pen.
On 10 its 100% pen. (and with the pistol, such positioning to hit rear is sometimes possible.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
 
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