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FinnSeer wrote:
RAW interpretion of the Deadshot rule is that it gives the succesfull hits (excluding snap shots) the Precision Shot special rule and therefore the shots must have a result of 6 in to-hit roll as stated in that Precision Shot special rule in order for them to be Precision Shots that can be allocated by the Vindicare's controlling player as long as they are allocated within range of Vindicare's shooting attacks and to a model that is in the unit which is being shot by Vindicare.

False, as the Deadshot rule overrides the necessity of a To Hit roll of a 6 to grant the result. You're confusing the 'Precision Shots' rule and the 'Precisions Shots' result of the rule.

FinnSeer wrote:
^ Could you please tell me where exactly the Deadshot special rule says that those shots are Precision Shots as the rule, as quoted before says that all sucessfull hits (excluding snap shots) have the Precision Shot special rule.

Are you saying that "hits" aren't "shots"?

 Ghaz wrote:

FinnSeer wrote:
RAW interpretion of the Deadshot rule is that it gives the succesfull hits (excluding snap shots) the Precision Shot special rule and therefore the shots must have a result of 6 in to-hit roll as stated in that Precision Shot special rule in order for them to be Precision Shots that can be allocated by the Vindicare's controlling player as long as they are allocated within range of Vindicare's shooting attacks and to a model that is in the unit which is being shot by Vindicare.

False, as the Deadshot rule overrides the necessity of a To Hit roll of a 6 to grant the result. You're confusing the 'Precision Shots' rule and the 'Precisions Shots' result of the rule.

Actually it is you who are confusing those terms. If the Deadshot special rule would refer to the 'Precision Shot' result as described in Precision Shot special rule it would not been worded as have the Precision Shot special rule but instead is a Precision Shot with preferrable addition of as described in Precision Shot and Sniper special rules.

Since it does not clearly use term 'Precision Shot' in the wording of Deadshot special rule it does not override the need to roll a 6 as the term used in the Deadshot special rule is 'Precision Shot special rule'.

Also neither the rule or the result is called Precision Shots. Special rule is called Precision Shot and the result is Precision Shot. Please try to use correct terms.

I think you are correct that there is a problem. The rules are badly written and a computer trying to follow the logic would choke on it. There is a hard-coded roll of 6 in the Precision Shot special rule and the Deadshot rule wrongly applies just the Precision Shot special rule and does not designate anything further such as "the hits are Precision Shots". People who are maintaining that there is no problem are appealing to some kind of polymorphism in the rule, basically that if the rule is applied to a hit (which would be after a roll to hit has been made) than the roll to hit of 6 is not required. However, that's a bit shaky since the rule could be allowed to look at the roll to hit that was just made (the Deadshot rule is after all applying the Precision Shot special rule exactly at the point the roll to hit has been made). We are not forbidden in the rules to look back at the immediate roll that has just been made and check to see if it is a 6.

The saving grace here is that there is a clear RAI that Deadhsot does indeed make the hits Precision Shots (since otherwise the rule does absolutely nothing and there is an awkward hammering over of all successful hits with only rolls of hit of 6). Bad rules writing that should be FAQed since its the source of possible confusion and even worse of rules-lawyering for advantage.

I'm finding it difficult to believe that this thread has gone on for as long as it has.

If, due to poor wording or otherwise, a rule has two (or more) possible interpretations, and interpretation:

A) Works perfectly fine, or

B) Varies from redundant to game breaking,

then it is quite clear which interpretation is correct, especially given the blindingly obvious intention of the rule.

As I said in the first post I can't see any other intention for the Deadshot rule to exist than to allow Vindicare's controlling player to allocate all succesfull hits excluding snap shots as Precision Shots and using RAI interpretation is what I am going to use.

Although due the error in the rule the RAW interpretation differs from RAI and that will cause some problems with WAAC gamers.

This is not the first rule in 40K that have had different interpretations for RAW and RAI until being FAQed, and I am sure it won't be the last.

Anyhow as all rules are made by humans there are always possibility for an error to exist and no one should be shamed or feel that pointing out such an error is blasphemous.

We are talking about an extension to a game instead of some holy dusty tome that is told to been written through divine guidance. Therefore there are no need for trying to turn off brain areas that are responsible for logical thinking or trying to hide that error in plain sight by telling that it reads differently than it does since as Dra'al Nacht (and even I) have told you can have two Interpretations of a rule when it has a flaw and you should stick to the interpretation that allows you to use the rule as intended.

Using RAI does not mean that the rule does not have an error or that nothing should be done for the wording of the rule.

To me the meaning of the Deadshot SR is quite simple, but let's list any possible wacky interpretation...
(Yes, I like lists).. My comments in italics

Int. 1: with deadshot, any 6 you roll is a precision shot, letting you choose on whom to allocate it
partially redundant, since sniper bestows precision shots on 6 rolled, but allows them from, say, a quad-gun or an icarus cannon
Int. 2: with deadshot, if you hit you roll again and on a 6 it's a precision shot
this makes a trained marksman with a perfect rifle worse than a scout with a 'normal' sniper rifle, quite a nonsense
Int. 3: with deadshot, all hits are precision hits, you always allocate them
this one is the more logical, since sniping is the single real ability of a vindicare

FinnSeer wrote:
[Also neither the rule or the result is called Precision Shots. Special rule is called Precision Shot and the result is Precision Shot. Please try to use correct terms.

Perhaps you should take your own advice and read the rulebook where the title of the rule is 'Precision Shots'.

The rule works exactly as I've stated. You're still trying to conflate the rule with the results of the rule.

 insaniak wrote:
And Deadshot over-rides this by stating that every hit is a Precision Shot.
The requirement to roll a 6 applies to models with the Precision Shot rule. The Vindicare is not a model with the Precision Shot rule. His hits have the rule.

I think it'd be better if I ask the following question in this thread, because it uses a lot of the rules discussed in here:

How would this work with 'The Fury of Deimos' from the Grey Knight-Relics?
Because in that case the weapon has "Assault 3, Master-crafted, Precision Shot".
Seeing as that also doesn't apply to the model, would I be correct in saying that you don't need 6's for that either?

Kangodo wrote:
Seeing as that also doesn't apply to the model, would I be correct in saying that you don't need 6's for that either?

The general assumption is that the weapon having Precision Shot is functionally the same as the model having the rule. Otherwise models with sniper rifles wouldn't benefit from Precision Shot at all.


The Vindicare's Deadshot is a different kettle of fish, because it is not applying Precision Shot to the model or the weapon. It is making his hits into Precision Shots.

We went around and around on this about The Emperor's Benediction back when Codex Astra Militarum was released.

if a unit/weapon has the rule precision shot, then to hit rolls with that weapon of a 6 are precision shots.

If a model/weapn has a rule that its hits are precision shots then its calling out a modifier to the precision shots rule of what is needed to hit to score a precision shot.

so in the case of the vindicare, all its hits are precision shots (since it stats so, and we do not reroll hits to see if they are 6s a second time)

if it called out the vindicares shots are precision shots, instead of its hits, then its to hit rolls of 6 would be precision shots.

 insaniak wrote:
The general assumption is that the weapon having Precision Shot is functionally the same as the model having the rule. Otherwise models with sniper rifles wouldn't benefit from Precision Shot at all.

How so? The rule 'Sniper' says that "if a weapon has the sniper special rule, or is fired by a model with the sniper special rule, and rolls a 6 to Hit.."
I don't see what Snipers have to do with that.

 Ghaz wrote:
We went around and around on this about The Emperor's Benediction back when Codex Astra Militarum was released.

That was in 6th edition.

blaktoof wrote:
if a unit/weapon has the rule precision shot, then to hit rolls with that weapon of a 6 are precision shots.
If a model/weapn has a rule that its hits are precision shots then its calling out a modifier to the precision shots rule of what is needed to hit to score a precision shot.
so in the case of the vindicare, all its hits are precision shots (since it stats so, and we do not reroll hits to see if they are 6s a second time)
if it called out the vindicares shots are precision shots, instead of its hits, then its to hit rolls of 6 would be precision shots.

So if a weapon has the Precision Shots special rule, you need 6's to Hit?
And if Deadshot applied to shots instead of hits, you would also need 6's?
Can I then point you to the following YMDC-rule:
1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
- You have to give premises for a conclusive statement; without this, there can be no debate.

Edited by motyak. Please don't post inflammatory stuff at the end of posts, or anywhere at all come to think of it

Kangodo wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
We went around and around on this about The Emperor's Benediction back when Codex Astra Militarum was released.

That was in 6th edition.

It was still the same problem. Why give the weapon 'Precision Shots' when it could only be taken by characters who, in 6th edition, had the 'Precision Shots' rule to begin with.

The author could've easily avoided this problem with a very simple word change.
"Deadshot: All successful To Hit rolls made by a Vindicare Assassin, excluding Snap Shots, have the are Precision Shots special rule."

The part I think people are missing is that both the rule and when you roll a 6 are called precision shots.