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So as Assassins got updated they also got some controversary wordings to their rules.

Vindicare seems to be the one with the weirdest rule as someone pointed out on our local forum.

It has Deadshot special rule which is Deadshot: "All sucessfull hits (excluding snap shots) have the Precision Shot special rule.". However Precision Shot special rule clearly states that you have to roll a 6 to hit in order to be able to allocate wounds to a model you want with Precision Shot rule.

I am sure that the intention has been that you can allocate every succesfull hit exluding snap shots as if they had a 6 to hit result but however the RAW currently clearly states that you get Precision Shot rule to each succesfull hit excluding snap shots meaning you still had to roll 6s in order to allocate hits to a model of your choice.

That's not actually what Precision Shots says. Read it again.

Do you really think you are expected to roll dice again?

With a sniper, a roll of 6 is a Precision Shot. There is no reason to believe that with Vindicare only hit rolls of 6 were Precision Shots.

"All sucessfull hits (excluding snap shots) have the Precision Shot special rule.".

means that all successful get the same effect as that in the conventional case of rolling 6.

It's not the Vindicare Assassin who has the Precision Shot USR, thus you don't have to roll a 6 to get a Precision Shot. It's the shot(s) that get the Precision Shot special rule. What supports this is that the Vindicare rule explicitely states "every shot that hits" - and a to-hit roll of a 6 always hits to begin with (as you are not allowed to shoot with BS 0), making this info redundant if it wasn't supposed to be understood as portrayed above.

tl;dr: Every Vindicare Assassin hit allows you to distribute the hit.

The wording is very wonky, and I don't feel like there's an acceptable RAW answer.

HIWPI - the Vindicare effectively treats all successful To Hit rolls as a 6.

Naw: I am not expecting anything. Imho the intention for Deadshot rule is to allow every shot excluding snap shots to be distributed as the controlling player wishes.

Problem is with RAW attitude WAAC players who say that since every succesfull hit (excluding snap shots) have Precision Shot special rule instead of all succesfull hits (excluding snap shots) being Precision Shots. There is a difference with that wording, since Precision Shot special rule clearly states that you need to roll a to-hit result of 6 for a hit to be Precision Shot and therefore allocating to the unit as the owning player wishes.

RAI in this case would be that every succesfull hit except snap shot is a Precision Shot that can be allocated as stated in Precision Shot special rule.

RAW in the other hand is that you need to roll to-hit result of 6 to be able to distribute it freely since all succesfull hits gain Precision Shot special rule and as that special rule clearly states that to hit results of 6 are Precision Shots and therefore can be allocated according the special rule.

I am going to play this with the RAI interpretation but I know that there will be problems when facing someone with WAAC attitude and who is taking hits from Vindicare.

FinnSeer wrote:
... since Precision Shot special rule clearly states that you need to roll a to-hit result of 6 for a hit to be Precision Shot ...

And Deadshot over-rides this by stating that every hit is a Precision Shot.


The requirement to roll a 6 applies to models with the Precision Shot rule. The Vindicare is not a model with the Precision Shot rule. His hits have the rule.

RAI in this case would be that every succesfull hit except snap shot is a Precision Shot that can be allocated as stated in Precision Shot special rule.

This is also the RAW.

The fact that Deadshot says the hit itself has the Precision Shot Special Rule instead the way of the Eldar Illic Nightspear and Pathfinders 'Sureshot' that flat out says every hit 'is always a precision shot' is a bit wonky. The rule equivalent is already in the game and they rename it and change the wording for no reason that I can see. But, I'll also agree that it's a non-issue because either wording means the same thing and it's obvious how the rule is to be played.

FinnSeer wrote:


RAW in the other hand is that you need to roll to-hit result of 6 to be able to distribute it freely since all succesfull hits gain Precision Shot special rule

Important detail here: the model with the USR needs to roll a 6 on a to-hit roll to get Precision Shots. In the case of the Vindicare Assassin, this is not the case as he does not have the USR. His shots automatically get it.

If GW knew how to write rules, the rule would say "All hits by a Vindicare Assassin are Precision Shots.". But in this very case, I think that even their wording is quite clear.

Probably was worded that way so that you can't do shenanigans with manned pie plate weapons (Fortress of Redemption).

They could make it really easy and just say:
"All sucessful hits (excluding snap shots) have the Precision Shot (2+) special rule."

 House Griffith wrote:
They could make it really easy and just say:
"All sucessful hits (excluding snap shots) have the Precision Shot (2+) special rule."

That sounds like you need to hit, and then roll another 2+

Note that the Vindicare already has the Precision Shot rule due to having Sniper on all his weapons. Be a bit pointless to just give him the same rule again.

 insaniak wrote:

FinnSeer wrote:
... since Precision Shot special rule clearly states that you need to roll a to-hit result of 6 for a hit to be Precision Shot ...

And Deadshot over-rides this by stating that every hit is a Precision Shot.

Could you please tell me where it does state so, since the actual wording as quoted before is all succesfull hits (excluding snap shots) have the Precision Shot special rule? You have missed two important points from that rule if you say that Deadshot states every hit as a Precision Shot. Snap shots don't have the Precision Shot special rule and other succesfull hits have the Precision Shot special rule. As said before, is a Precision Shot and has the Precision Shot special rule don't mean the same thing in a same way as someone has a basket case and is a basket case have totally different meanings.

After reading that, can you tell me where does it state that every hit is a Precision Shot?

There would not be any problems with interpreting that rule if it actually would been written as is a Precision Shot but now it is not written that way and it causes problem since RAW interpretion gives those hits only that special rule, which clearly states that you need to roll a 6 in to-hit roll, and nothing else.

RAI is different as I have said before.

All of a model's shots with the Precise Shots USR that roll a 6 on a to-hit roll gain the Precicsion Shots USR.

Deadshot overrides this by skipping the former part and immediately granting all shots the Precision Shots USR.

^ That does not make sense at all. Precision Shot special rule states clearly that after rolling a 6 on a to-hit roll that hit is considered to be a 'Precision Shot' and therefore can be allocated as stated in the rule. It does not state that the hits gains Precision Shot special rule as does the Deadshot special rule state.

Direct quote from the RB is as follows: ...rolls a 6 To Hit with a shooting weapon, that shot is a 'Precision Shot'.

If something gains the Precision Shot special rule, it does not mean that the shots in that case are 'Precision Shots'. Precision Shot special rule refers to that special rule and Precision Shots refers to hits made by a Model that has Precision Shot special rule and rolls a 6 as a result for to-hit with shooting weapon.

As said before, the problem arises from the difference of something having the Precision Shot special rule or something being Precision Shots.

How hard it is to see that 'Precision Shot special rule' does not equal 'Precision Shot' as the later even has 11 letters less.

FinnSeer wrote:
If something gains the Precision Shot special rule, it does not mean that the shots in that case are 'Precision Shots'.

Ehm...the shots are Precision Shots. The rule Deadshots itself says so.

^ Could you please tell me where exactly the Deadshot special rule says that those shots are Precision Shots as the rule, as quoted before says that all sucessfull hits (excluding snap shots) have the Precision Shot special rule.

Precision Shots is a special rule, but it are actually two rules rolled into one.

1) A rule that says a model with this rule has Precision Shots on a 6+
2) A rule that says wounds from Precision Shots are allocated to the choice of the player who fired.

The first part doesn't apply to the Vindicare at all, since he doesn't have Precision Shots himself.

^Actually Vindicare has Precision Shot special rule even without Deadshot rule.

Still Precision Shot special rule is a special rule and that special rule states that 'Precision Shot' (note that in the special rule text there are no mention to a 'special rule' after the words 'Precision Shot') is a shot that has a result of 6 when rolling to-hits. Deadshot states that all succesfull hits (excluding snap shots) have the Precision Shot special rule.

Go ahead and read that part from the Dataslate. It clearly states that all succesfull hits(excluding snap shots) have the Precision Shot special rule. It does not say that all succesfull hits are Precision Shots as you and many others are wrongfully saying.

FinnSeer wrote:
Go ahead and read that part from the Dataslate. It clearly states that all succesfull hits(excluding snap shots) have the Precision Shot special rule. It does not say that all succesfull hits are Precision Shots as you and many others are wrongfully saying.

Are you suggesting rolling to hit again? After the first round of rolling that triggers the rule?

Because that definitley follows no rules at all.

Or that the entire rule does nothing? It calls out all successful hits, not just 6's so it isn't following the Precision shot rule. And that rule already exists due to Sniper.

So what are you suggesting it does?

FinnSeer wrote:
^Actually Vindicare has Precision Shot special rule even without Deadshot rule.

Since when? Because he doesn't have that rule.

Still Precision Shot special rule is a special rule and that special rule states that 'Precision Shot' (note that in the special rule text there are no mention to a 'special rule' after the words 'Precision Shot') is a shot that has a result of 6 when rolling to-hits. Deadshot states that all succesfull hits (excluding snap shots) have the Precision Shot special rule.

But you keep forgetting the most important part!
The 'Roll a 6' only applies when a model with the Precision Shots-rule shoots.

So does the Vindicare itself has the 'Precision Shots'-rule? If not, then you don't need to roll a 6.

Go ahead and read that part from the Dataslate. It clearly states that all succesfull hits(excluding snap shots) have the Precision Shot special rule. It does not say that all succesfull hits are Precision Shots as you and many others are wrongfully saying.

But that doesn't matter, since the D6-roll is only applied when the model itself has the special rule.
The hits have the special rule and the special rule doesn't say you need to roll a 6 for the wound to be allocated, that only applies to models with the special rule.

Kangodo wrote:
Since when? Because he doesn't have that rule.

All his weapons have the "Sniper" rule.

Which is not the same as Precision Shot.

On a 6 to hit, the shots become Precision hits. Same as his Deadshot makes all hits Precision hits.

You don't roll a 6 to hit for Sniper, then have to roll another 6 to make it a Precision Shot after all..

From the 'Precision Shots' rule in the Warhammer 40,000 7th edition rulebook:

If a model with this special rule rolls a 6 To Hit with a shooting weapon, that shot is a 'Precision Shot'.

This is overridden by the Vindicare's special rule that gives his successful shots the 'Precision Shots' rule and not the Vindicare himself. Normally it would look something like this:

Model or weapon has 'Precision Shots' rule -> Model or weapon rolls a 6 To Hit -> Shot has 'Precision Shots' rule.

Regardless of what the To Hit roll is, the Vindicare's shots are always 'Precision Shots' as they skip the first two steps listed above because it is the successful shot that has the special rule, not the model or the weapon.

Deadshot says 'all successful hits have precision shot special rule' which means that the rolls to hit have been made. The hit was successful. The precision shot USR says that on a to hit roll of a six, the shot is a precision shot. The wording is odd but there's still no question that under Deadshot EVERY hit uses the precision shot special rule benefits. I would not be surprised if they just FAQ it for the way they word it.

Kangodo wrote:

FinnSeer wrote:
^Actually Vindicare has Precision Shot special rule even without Deadshot rule.

Since when? Because he doesn't have that rule.

Might want to look up Sniper special rule and then check to see what special rules the Vindicare's weapons possess....

 don_mondo wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

FinnSeer wrote:
^Actually Vindicare has Precision Shot special rule even without Deadshot rule.

Since when? Because he doesn't have that rule.

Might want to look up Sniper special rule and then check to see what special rules the Vindicare's weapons possess....

What does the Sniper rule say happens when you roll a 6?
Now compare that to what happens on any successful hit according to Deadshot.

^^ I am saying, as I have said before, the current wording is broken and effectively the Deadshot rule does nothing if RAW is used.

RAI interpretion of Deadshot rule although is simple and intends for the Vindicare's controlling player to allocate succesfull hits oter than snap shots as per the Precision Shot special rule states for shots that are Precision Shots.

RAW interpretion of the Deadshot rule is that it gives the succesfull hits (excluding snap shots) the Precision Shot special rule and therefore the shots must have a result of 6 in to-hit roll as stated in that Precision Shot special rule in order for them to be Precision Shots that can be allocated by the Vindicare's controlling player as long as they are allocated within range of Vindicare's shooting attacks and to a model that is in the unit which is being shot by Vindicare.

^^
You keep forgetting the more important part, which is that there are no other way for shots to be Precision Shots than the way stated in the Precision Shot special rule, which is to have a result of 6 in to-hit roll.

Correct wording for that rule would have been all succesfull hits (excluding snap shots) are Precision Shots.

Precision Shot as a term is used within two special rules. The first is Sniper special rule and the other is Precision Shot special rule. Therefore term Precision Shot refers to a shot that has been described within those special rules. Term Precision Shot special rule refers to a Precision Shot special rule and not to a Precision Shot.

Why wouldn't it do anything?
1) All hits have the Precision Shot special rule.
2) I open my book and look to the Precision Shot rule.
3) I skip the part about a model with the rule, because that doesn't apply.
4) Ah look! I may allocate the wounds.

So one last time:
You only have to roll a six if the model has the rule.
Deadshot gives this rule to the HITS and not the model.
Why is that so hard to understand?

And we're disagreeing with you (FinnSeer). So mote it be.