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ATAHobbies wrote: FLGS Here,
In all Honesty, GW is without a doubt the best manufacturer/distributor that we have. They are incredibly prompt when we call (which isn't as common as you would think) and actually work with us to stock what is best for us. I had to actually talk THEM into selling me items that they weren't sure were right for us, and they sent us hundreds of dollars in fixtures and scenery for free. Direct Only items aren't really direct only, they just take a bit longer to arrive (for us it's 2 extra days) and while we don't receive the same discount as we do most trade items, their direct order costs are much cheaper than most other companies. Manufacturers often offer freebies to retailers as a way to promote themselves in a store. I appreciate it because I don't have to pay companies to showcase their items, and that in turn leads to more exposure for them.
Think about it this way
Company A sends you posters, a demo table, minis and terrain to showcase the game to new hobbyists, as well as guides to selling product and flyers for customers
Company B has all of these items available, but require you to pay for them (the demo table for another popular game costs us $175)
Company C doesn't have any promotional material available other than what's on their website, and you have to make everything yourself
Which one is the obvious choice to showcase in your store?
That question depends on a lot more than just what is cheapest for you in initial costs.
Let's say you only have room for one demo table. You decide to go for the free one with all the extra stuff. People come in, try the game and think it's quite fun. Then they see how much it costs to actually play this game. It's £80 to get just the rules for the game and the rules for one of the armies. Then there's another £50 for the very bare bones required for the army (2 troops and 1 HQ). Then they're gonna need to pick up some other stuff to bring it up to 1500 points or so. Add in paints and glue. That adds up to something they don't want to pay, so they don't pay. You don't get that sale. You have a table which isn't really doing anything for you as people are not buying the expensive product it's advertising.
Now let's say that you go for the $175 one. Let's say this game has similar price per model but requires a lot less models to play, resulting in a cheaper game overall. Also, you only need one rulebook as all the rules for the models are included with the model. Potential customer comes in and tries out the game, likes it. They then ask what is required to play. You tell them that all they need is the rulebook and what models they want. There's even a box set with two playable armies and the rules and for less than the other games core rules alone. Customer agrees that that is a good deal and buys the box. Yay! the table has gone a little way to earning back its cost!
Shh..you're killing the story of GW being the evil empire. Everything GW does must be evil, wrong and a sign of their impending demise for the folks on here.
You know, that is so actual true. If GW actually became nice and did nothing wrong, what are we going to do with out lives? What do we have to live for except for hating on GW?
Seriously though, I am sure GW is like Miley Cyrus and Lindsey Lohan. Bad publicity is free publicity and that is another reason why I think GW acts like they do. It keeps us talking. If they were nice and made clear concise rules, we wouldn't be talking about them as much. YMDC wouldn't exist and see how many pages there is on for talking about GW, just there. Just like the NEWS, it's always negative stuff that is always talked about the most, and nice stuff is talked about very little to break up all the negativity. So this being the internet, it's the negativity that keeps being talked about a lot and it's free for GW, free advertising.
As they say, it's always the vocal minority that is always herd a lot. So saying that is true, it's the silent majority that is never herd, and the silent majority is not giving out free advertising for GW.
Do GW reps get a bonus if they meet sales targets?
If a chunk of the bonus gets spent early to guarantee getting it, what's a few quid out of thousands?
It's the sort of thing I heard happened a lot in the 1980s, and since GW is stuck there, it can't be far off.
I know the OP has said the title was a bit strong, but it's more than strong. It's misleading and wrong in this context, I believe.
Bribes are made when it is illegal (or otherwise against 'the rules') to offer an incentive for desired behavior. Police aren't allowed to accept money in exchange for dropping enforcement, so that is a bribe.
Offering additional incentives during a negotiation can also be legal. The car dealer offering you free oil changes for life if you buy his car, is behaving legally, but he might be violating his own companies rules in doing so, in which case he is still bribing someone. However, this might be a standard company policy, so then it wouldn't be bribery. The context definitely matters.
This happens all the time in corporations and I suspect that GW, like many retailers, actually has allotted for it in their budgets. For instance, I work in a bookstore (yup--they still exist) and publishers often have a 'compensation budget' which they can use to encourage buyers to stock their product. Now, they aren't allowed to directly just offer the buyer money. That's part of the rules, so it would be a bribe. However, they can use money from that budget to discount some of their product, if you agree to display it prominently. So, the store puts a book front and center, and is able to buy it for less (and sell it more profitably). The budgeting keeps the publishing agents 'on the level', and prevents them from overspending.
If that all seems like a semantic dodge, and no different from bribery to you, consider this:
A man wearing a shirt with a logo on it has a box of toys I want. He will not let me have the box. I offer him something nice. He lets me have the box.
Unless there's an agreed-upon set of rules for purchasing, it's just "bribing" someone to let you take their stuff.
Most sales people in most industries will get some form of discretionary budget of free stuff to give away for promo items. Sometimes it is pens and paper, or taking clients out to lunch. Sometimes that can cross a line. In this case offering items to go in a window display is well within the norm, just like paying for racking.
Azreal13 wrote: any more than its "excellent customer service" when they merely exchange a faulty product, these are just normal things that happen everyday between thousands of businesses and their customers, whether it be the public or other businesses, all over the world,
It's really not. If you think most businesses act like GW do with customer service you are either very naive or very lucky. GW have always answered phone calls very quickly, and don't have any premium rate charges. Almost every time I have had to call a companies customer care line it has been a premium rate number and a long wait. GW will happily send you a replacement product, no questions asked, with a simple email, often even when you are at fault. I have heard stories of them sending out raven wing upgrade sprue because someone ordered the DA one in store in error and of them replacing broken "glass" bits on fliers when people have smashed them (and admitted it was their own fault). Most companies do not act this way with their customers. Many companies do everything they can to avoid replacing faulty products.
There may be problems with GW, but their C/S is some of the best.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
Most sales people in most industries will get some form of discretionary budget of free stuff to give away for promo items. Sometimes it is pens and paper, or taking clients out to lunch. Sometimes that can cross a line. In this case offering items to go in a window display is well within the norm, just like paying for racking.
Azreal13 wrote: any more than its "excellent customer service" when they merely exchange a faulty product, these are just normal things that happen everyday between thousands of businesses and their customers, whether it be the public or other businesses, all over the world,
It's really not. If you think most businesses act like GW do with customer service you are either very naive or very lucky. GW have always answered phone calls very quickly, and don't have any premium rate charges. Almost every time I have had to call a companies customer care line it has been a premium rate number and a long wait. GW will happily send you a replacement product, no questions asked, with a simple email, often even when you are at fault. I have heard stories of them sending out raven wing upgrade sprue because someone ordered the DA one in store in error and of them replacing broken "glass" bits on fliers when people have smashed them (and admitted it was their own fault). Most companies do not act this way with their customers. Many companies do everything they can to avoid replacing faulty products.
There may be problems with GW, but their C/S is some of the best.
When I was still a consistent GW customer, my viewpoint was always that at the premium prices GW charged, one should not hesitate to have something fixed, corrected, or replaced. In this GW did not disappoint. For example, when the Valk first came out, the side panel of one of my valk kits had a little imperfection in the casting. GW sent out an entire replacement kit with a 5 minute phone call, and all C/S was interested in getting from me was info from the box to track down where and when it was manufactured.
Now, there's lots of reasons GW's C/S is good that have little to do with an open and giving attitude. For example, it costs GW more money to accept a return or to send out a replacement sprue than it does to simply mail out a replacement kit, assuming GW's stock levels are sufficient. These days I expect one would have a harder time getting a replacement kit simply because GW has lately been very stingy in its stock levels in order to cut down on costs.
Some companies have bad customer service because their costs for redressing customers' problems/complaints are much higher.
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
Azreal13 wrote: any more than its "excellent customer service" when they merely exchange a faulty product, these are just normal things that happen everyday between thousands of businesses and their customers, whether it be the public or other businesses, all over the world,
It's really not. If you think most businesses act like GW do with customer service you are either very naive or very lucky. GW have always answered phone calls very quickly, and don't have any premium rate charges. Almost every time I have had to call a companies customer care line it has been a premium rate number and a long wait. GW will happily send you a replacement product, no questions asked, with a simple email, often even when you are at fault. I have heard stories of them sending out raven wing upgrade sprue because someone ordered the DA one in store in error and of them replacing broken "glass" bits on fliers when people have smashed them (and admitted it was their own fault). Most companies do not act this way with their customers. Many companies do everything they can to avoid replacing faulty products.
There may be problems with GW, but their C/S is some of the best.
You missed the fact I specifically stated faulty product, yes, there are instances where GW have gone above and beyond, but there are equally as many instances where people have praised them for merely doing what they're obliged to do as a matter of law.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Da Butcha wrote: I know the OP has said the title was a bit strong, but it's more than strong. It's misleading and wrong in this context, I believe.
Bribes are made when it is illegal (or otherwise against 'the rules') to offer an incentive for desired behavior. Police aren't allowed to accept money in exchange for dropping enforcement, so that is a bribe.
Offering additional incentives during a negotiation can also be legal. The car dealer offering you free oil changes for life if you buy his car, is behaving legally, but he might be violating his own companies rules in doing so, in which case he is still bribing someone. However, this might be a standard company policy, so then it wouldn't be bribery. The context definitely matters.
This happens all the time in corporations and I suspect that GW, like many retailers, actually has allotted for it in their budgets. For instance, I work in a bookstore (yup--they still exist) and publishers often have a 'compensation budget' which they can use to encourage buyers to stock their product. Now, they aren't allowed to directly just offer the buyer money. That's part of the rules, so it would be a bribe. However, they can use money from that budget to discount some of their product, if you agree to display it prominently. So, the store puts a book front and center, and is able to buy it for less (and sell it more profitably). The budgeting keeps the publishing agents 'on the level', and prevents them from overspending.
If that all seems like a semantic dodge, and no different from bribery to you, consider this:
A man wearing a shirt with a logo on it has a box of toys I want. He will not let me have the box. I offer him something nice. He lets me have the box.
Unless there's an agreed-upon set of rules for purchasing, it's just "bribing" someone to let you take their stuff.
You made a good point. Thing is, the way it seems that GW doesn't give anything for FREE to it's customers, it could seem as a "bribe" when the people who can't get free stuff no more because of GW policy and see stores getting them to "sweeten the pot" could seem like a bribe.
Remember walking into the GW store and getting a free marine to paint up? GW use to give it's customers lots of free stuff, but now it seems all taken away to make a buck. Why give out free stuff they will pay for it mentality. So yeah, I can see where the OP is coming from saying "bribe" when you can't think of a better word for it.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
It's really not. If you think most businesses act like GW do with customer service you are either very naive or very lucky. GW have always answered phone calls very quickly, and don't have any premium rate charges. Almost every time I have had to call a companies customer care line it has been a premium rate number and a long wait. GW will happily send you a replacement product, no questions asked, with a simple email, often even when you are at fault. I have heard stories of them sending out raven wing upgrade sprue because someone ordered the DA one in store in error and of them replacing broken "glass" bits on fliers when people have smashed them (and admitted it was their own fault). Most companies do not act this way with their customers. Many companies do everything they can to avoid replacing faulty products.
There may be problems with GW, but their C/S is some of the best.
Their CS might be some of the best when you compare it with retail at large, but like everything else, if you compare it with just the other miniature manufacturers, then GW's CS is just par for the course.
All of those examples that you just gave of going above and beyond, I have similar stories that have happened to me from companies such as CB, PP, Spartan or even smaller manufacturers like Empress Miniatures.
Azreal13 wrote: Retailer incentives like this are incredibly commonplace, if one has a trade account with a wholesaler, one can expect daily emails with promotions on stock purchases.
Heck, when I was running my business, one supplier offered points on purchases much like Tesco Clubcard points, redeemable for all sorts, up to a long distance holiday (Seychelles or Maldives IIRC)
While it might indicate GW realising that they've pushed things too far with Indys and starting to try and rebuild bridges, in all likelihood there's nothing to see here.
exactly this. its pretty normal in the sector, but i don't know whether or not it's normal for GW. they have always been a bit of a special case.
@ A Town Called Malus: that is a very disingenuous post...
the first game you used as an example, that gives out the free table, also has a starter box available with rules included, and two armies that can be used to play the game...
the second example you used, with a paid table and slightly cheaper starter, also requires the same investment in paints and supplies...
at the end of the day, both company's starter sets need to have models added if one wants to play competitively...
if one is happy with casual play, both sets work the same...
yes, GW costs more, but the plastics are also of a higher quality to the restic of the PP starter set, and is also set in a completely different genre...
Sci-Fi and Steampunk are not the same...
i love both settings, but for a new guy, looking for a setting with power armor and laser guns, stompy steam bots and blunderbusses are not going to appeal in the same manner...
saying one requires more minis than the other, because you have to go up to 1,500 points is also untrue...
Kill Team takes 200 points...
games of 500 points are common, and at home, one can play with whatever they want...
the starter box comes with scenario play to use everything in the box, game-legal...
there is no real truth to one being better than the other, or one being cheaper than the other...
the question is, does the new guy start casual, or jump into competitive play???
that is up to the new guy himself...
both games cost a lot to take to the cutthroat level of play...
it ain't cheap to bring a Colossus to the table...
i don't mind people being angry, or feeling like they have been done wrong by GW personally, but at least be honest about what a new guy has available...
a DV box, and a starter paint set work just fine...
a PP starter, a few paints and brushes, and away he goes...
both can be split with a friend...
one costs a bit more, with easier to assemble minis...
the other costs a bit less, with harder to assemble minis...
one is Sci-Fi, and the other is Steampunk, and both have a completely different style of play...
it's apples and oranges, really...
@ Azreal13: you seem to have missed the fact that Kelly502 was saying that it was nice of GW to give an entire Realm of Battle table (which retails at 175 British pounds or 290 Dollars) to his local store for FREE, and you said it wasn't nice of them and compared it to being like saying that it's nice of GW to have good customer service...
one has nothing to do with the other...
yes, for the price, GW should never hassle a customer about getting a replacement for a faulty product that they paid top dollar for, and they are very good about that sort of thing...
not an issue...
i get that people are angry with the changes that GW have gone through, especially in the last 5 years, but it is a personal choice to invest in their game and models, not anything being forced upon anyone...
there are many options out there...
I will admit that I forgot to put in the cost of paints and glue to the other side, thanks for reminding me.
Well, the Island of Blood set for Warhammer Fantasy gives you an illegal High Elf list which is also 300 points more than the Skaven list provided. Having such an imbalanced starter set is not a great introduction to the game as it can lead to the person playing the Skaven getting fed up that it is so hard for them to win, especially as they assume that the sides are balanced.
So if the High Elf player wanted to play the game using the actual rules for army composition they have no choice but to buy extra kits.
The 40K starter is also imbalanced in terms of the forces. The Chaos side has very little which can beat the Terminators on the Dark Angels side with any reliability (basically only the dreadnought and a single power axe) and the amount of plasma weaponry available to the Dark Angels rips the Chosen to pieces and can strip the hull points from the Hellbrute pretty reliably. Add in psychic dominance from the librarian and it's pretty one sided.
The Island of Blood and Warmachine two player box are around the same price. Dark Vengeance is £5 more expensive.
So even with the starter sets, Warmachine will still be the cheaper choice for the player as the person buying the Island of blood will have to buy an army book, which will add 20 or 30 pounds on to the price depending on if they want to play Skaven or High Elves.
And really, my point wasn't about one being better in terms of a game, just that the perceived barrier of entry in terms of cost could make the free table less of a bargain than it appears.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/01 18:19:59
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
You missed the fact I specifically stated faulty product, yes, there are instances where GW have gone above and beyond, but there are equally as many instances where people have praised them for merely doing what they're obliged to do as a matter of law.
No I didn't. You ignored what I was saying. They replace faulty items without question, and answer the phone and emails very quickly and not by forcing you to phone a premium rate line o refer you back to the shop. Those are not a matter of law. Most of the time they don't demand any proof, they don't demand you return it (most of the time, as it seems they have a random return policy, or a high claim return policy as fraud prevention), and don't make you jump through hoops like most companies do.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
You missed the fact I specifically stated faulty product, yes, there are instances where GW have gone above and beyond, but there are equally as many instances where people have praised them for merely doing what they're obliged to do as a matter of law.
No I didn't. You ignored what I was saying. They replace faulty items without question, and answer the phone and emails very quickly and not by forcing you to phone a premium rate line o refer you back to the shop. Those are not a matter of law. Most of the time they don't demand any proof, they don't demand you return it (most of the time, as it seems they have a random return policy, or a high claim return policy as fraud prevention), and don't make you jump through hoops like most companies do.
Are there examples of companies (specifically in the wargaming realm) that *don't* do these things? I'm genuinely curious. I see all the things that GW does, and I certainly agree that they do do them, and that they go above what the law dictates on these matters, but then I'm curious about what companies are not following these "good customer relationship" concepts and therefore making GW the best in terms of customer interaction.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/09/01 19:52:08
That is a bit close to proving a negative to be a useful exercise.
Personally I have always had great service from GW. I think their games are coverpriced, but I cannot fault the two times they replace my faulty Shadowsun kit, for example.
I had a similar problem with Antenociti's Workshop that was also dealt with promptly and courteously.
I have never had a problem with Hasslefree, MERCS, Essex, Heresy, Statuesque, Soda Pop, Crooked Dice or various other producers, so I am not in a position to comment on their after service skills.
I understand KK. And it's not that a single episode of poor customer service on GW's part would suddenly make them a crummy company in the customer interaction department. But, I see GW's customer service brought up and I sometimes feel there is the implication is that their service must be better than others because it's brought up as a point of comparison. Which is why I'm asking if other wargaming companies have less-than-stellar reputations in customer service, because I honestly do not know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/01 20:56:29
A Town Called Malus wrote: I will admit that I forgot to put in the cost of paints and glue to the other side, thanks for reminding me.
Well, the Island of Blood set for Warhammer Fantasy gives you an illegal High Elf list which is also 300 points more than the Skaven list provided. Having such an imbalanced starter set is not a great introduction to the game as it can lead to the person playing the Skaven getting fed up that it is so hard for them to win, especially as they assume that the sides are balanced.
So if the High Elf player wanted to play the game using the actual rules for army composition they have no choice but to buy extra kits.
The 40K starter is also imbalanced in terms of the forces. The Chaos side has very little which can beat the Terminators on the Dark Angels side with any reliability (basically only the dreadnought and a single power axe) and the amount of plasma weaponry available to the Dark Angels rips the Chosen to pieces and can strip the hull points from the Hellbrute pretty reliably. Add in psychic dominance from the librarian and it's pretty one sided.
The Island of Blood and Warmachine two player box are around the same price. Dark Vengeance is £5 more expensive.
So even with the starter sets, Warmachine will still be the cheaper choice for the player as the person buying the Island of blood will have to buy an army book, which will add 20 or 30 pounds on to the price depending on if they want to play Skaven or High Elves.
And really, my point wasn't about one being better in terms of a game, just that the perceived barrier of entry in terms of cost could make the free table less of a bargain than it appears.
as i said, yes, the PP starter is technically cheaper...
my question is, what if the new guy doesn't want to play a Steampunk game???
if he wants Fantasy or Sci-Fi settings, then the extra bit of cash saved is not really helpful...
anyway, i'm not saying any one is better than the other, i'm saying that the "perceived barrier of entry" is a fallacy...
tabletop wargaming is expensive, no matter what game you choose...
some are more expensive than others, yes, but if someone wants to play 40K, they pay 40k prices...
telling a potential new customer that they must have a 1,500 point army is dishonest, though...
they can play at much lower points costs, with much less investment...
this is true for almost every game on the market...
one can play with 15 points, instead of 35 or 50 points, of PP minis, too...
my point is, telling a potential new customer Warmachine is WFB, but cheaper is not true...
telling them that Warpath is 40k but cheaper is not true...
saying that restic is the same quality as plastic is not true...
they are not comparable in setting or quality...
a new customer will gravitate to what they like best, as it should be...
if they do not like the Steampunk setting, but are mad for Fantasy and the GW models, then the perceived barrier of entry goes out the window...
a Kings of War Dragon Rider is not an equal replacement for a GW High Elf on Dragon to the customer who really wants that model, even if it is cheaper...
plus, a free table is a bargain, because the shop is obviously carrying GW product if they were given the table...
it's not like they say, "here's a gift, now buy our stuff"...
it's more like, "thanks for buying our stuff, and here's a little extra on top"...
honestly though, nothing is free...
a Storm Wing box or a Realm of Battle table given to a retailer for free is only going to happen if that shop is already buying product...
so it's not "really" free anyway...
the OP's question was, "is it bribery"???
no, it's a reward, or an incentive, however you choose to look at it...
i give things away "for free" in my businesses all the time, but only after the customer has spent the money, so it isn't actually free..
when someone rents a surfboard for a week at my surf shop, they get an 8-pack of beer thrown in at no extra cost...
when someone hires me for a commission, if i already have the mini, i don't charge for the mini...
the psychological aspect is "free stuff", but they still have to pay me, so it is really just me lowering my profit margin...
either way, it's a deal for the client, and customers like that...
my boards and minis cost more than the competition's, so i give them higher quality, and a little incentive on top...
it's smart business...
jah-joshua wrote: @ saying one requires more minis than the other, because you have to go up to 1,500 points is also untrue... Kill Team takes 200 points... games of 500 points are common, and at home, one can play with whatever they want... the starter box comes with scenario play to use everything in the box, game-legal...
All great if you can find those games. At least over here, they are not common. Can't get any games unless it's minimum 1000 points. Maybe in your area 500 point games are common but not here. Just curious how many 500 point games do you play? If you don't play them why not?
there is no real truth to one being better than the other, or one being cheaper than the other... the question is, does the new guy start casual, or jump into competitive play??? that is up to the new guy himself... both games cost a lot to take to the cutthroat level of play... it ain't cheap to bring a Colossus to the table...
Well said.
a DV box, and a starter paint set work just fine... a PP starter, a few paints and brushes, and away he goes... both can be split with a friend... one costs a bit more, with easier to assemble minis... the other costs a bit less, with harder to assemble minis... one is Sci-Fi, and the other is Steampunk, and both have a completely different style of play... it's apples and oranges, really...
No, it is not Apples and organs really. Again, both systems cost money. Both systems take time to assemble, and paint and learn the rules. I find it funny you said earlier to be honest to the new person and here you are being dishonest by saying you can't compare them. You can compare them. Unless someone is going to buy both systems, how do you say what system to get then? By your logic of Apples and Oranges, the person shouldn't be buying either system because because one is apple the other is orange.
Apple
Great Box set Has very expensive Books Minis are expensive and prices seem to raise yearly Nice looking minis, some goofy Can be played with little points to many points. Most games are played with many minis Armies are updated one at a time. Sometimes some armies get something, but someone is always left behind.
Orange Great Box Set Has reasonable price minis to expensive minis, prices don't seem to raise yearly (could be wrong here since I haven't bought PP in a while.) Nice looking minis, some goofy Games can be played with little points to many points. (Not sure what the meta is for point games in PP anymore) Has reasonable prices books
I think I just compared Apple and Oranges. Armies are usually updated all at once and when something new comes out most factions always get something new. No one is left out.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/01 22:47:14
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
@ Azreal13: you seem to have missed the fact that Kelly502 was saying that it was nice of GW to give an entire Realm of Battle table (which retails at 175 British pounds or 290 Dollars) to his local store for FREE, and you said it wasn't nice of them and compared it to being like saying that it's nice of GW to have good customer service...
one has nothing to do with the other...
feth me your posting style is one of the hardest things to read I've encountered since white text on a yellow background.
My point is, it isn't "nice." It isn't done for altruistic reasons, it's purpose is to further the agenda of GW PLC.
Just like all the mind feth stupid gak they do which pisses people off so royally isn't "evil."
To ascribe these sorts of notions to a large multinational is just pointless.
You missed the fact I specifically stated faulty product, yes, there are instances where GW have gone above and beyond, but there are equally as many instances where people have praised them for merely doing what they're obliged to do as a matter of law.
No I didn't. You ignored what I was saying. They replace faulty items without question, and answer the phone and emails very quickly and not by forcing you to phone a premium rate line o refer you back to the shop. Those are not a matter of law. Most of the time they don't demand any proof, they don't demand you return it (most of the time, as it seems they have a random return policy, or a high claim return policy as fraud prevention), and don't make you jump through hoops like most companies do.
Replacing or refunding faulty items is a legal obligation on companies. That is the only point I made, in reference to how people praise GW for doing this, and only this, on a semi regular basis.
Everything else you seem to be responding to as if I said it you've largely extracted from your rectum I'm afraid, I agree that prompt service, no questions asked replacements etc are at least a little above the norm for retail as a whole (but in no ways unique or unusual) but that wasn't what I said, and remains so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/01 23:06:01
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
@Davor: i don't play, i am a painter...
i have spent 25 years hanging around game stores, and seen all the different ways people enjoy wargames...
i have seen lots of Kill Team, as people like the skirmish style, and all of the slow grow leagues i've seen start at 500 points...
when i say comparing Warmachine and 40k or Fantasy is like comparing apples and oranges, i am talking about the settings and genres...
Sci-fi is not Steampunk, and Steampunk is not Fantasy...
i am saying that the customer needs to decide which setting and genre they want to play, and thengo from there...
Azreal13: i'm sorry you have so much difficulty reading my posts...
maybe just put me on ignore if it will make your life easier...
i still don't get why you are bent about a company giving free stuff to retailers who carry their product...
of course it is not alturistic, it's business...
people who carry their products are given stuff to display and promote the product...
that is smart business...
alturism is fine for charities, but business is about making money...
it is not pointless to say a business giving free product to a store for their use is "nice"...
they didn't have to do it...
there is no law that says you must provide free product to
I'm not "bent" (that means something very different in the UKBTW) I was simply pointing out that characterising it as nice is just folly. It isn't nice, it is just something that businesses do to further their own ends.
What has me baffled, rather than "bent," is why this is even considered a topic worthy of conversation, because if it wasn't GW it is so utterly pedestrian a thing as to be essentially beneath notice.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
So hang on, sifi and steampunk are different things. Sure, I get that. Apples to Oranges and all that.
So lets compare 40k to say infinity. Both are sifi now.
I've bought a horde army for infinity for less that it would cost me to buy the rulebook and codex for 40k. The rules for infinity seem to be almost universally praised as some of the tightest and most balanced out there while 40ks are... Not. Infinity has better sculpts in a better material.
If I was a store owner I would know which game I would be filling my demo space with if people wanted sifi.
Of course the next argument is usually that Infinity is a skirmish game, what if people want larger battles. I'd then point them towards dropzone commander or Spartan Games' upcoming Planetfall. Eventually we get to the point where someone asks what if they want a 28mm sifi mass battles game with gothic influences and yes, there 40k has no comparison, because we have split ever hair we possibly could.
Simple fact is 40k is probably the hardest game to push on new people these days unless you're in a GW store, hence this last financial report.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
@jah-joshua, ah, I see where you are coming from now. Thanks.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
doc1234 wrote: Ok, so the titles a little strongly worded, but I was talking to the manager of an FLGS about general stock in the store (of different things besides 40k I mean) and he mentioned about upcoming shelf space. When asked, he mentioned the GW rep (or whatever) was trying to get him to buy up about £500 worth of shelf stock, and was trying to sweeten the deal by giving him a stormraven and two of stormpigeons for free to put up as window advertisements. Gets even weirder when you consider he has a good £400 or so worth of stock on shelf as is that he can't shift, as well as a shop literally opposite selling them, a fairly large GW store down the road plus hobbycraft selling it nearby. So I can't see GW sales hurting in the area for them to have to try to give free kits away just to get the stuff onto shelves....
Simple matter of denying competition shelf space...
A Dark Angel fell on a watcher in the Dark Shroud silently chanted Vengance on the Fallen Angels to never be Unforgiven
All manufacturers, publishers and distributors big enough to have the marketing budget pay for various kinds of promotions in retail. These include special offers, shelf talkers, wobblers, end of aisle carousels, branded shelving, sample goods and, less visibly, favourable trading terms for large orders and the like. As mentioned above, apart from advertising your own goods, it also denies shelf space to competitors, a major factor around new product launches and Christmas selling period.
The practice is so widespread that larger retailer chains have standard rates of charges for shelf space, carousels and so on.
Naturally in the smaller, less formal environment of the FLGS, things are done in a much more casual way, but the basic point is the same. This kind of thing is a standard part of the distribution-retail industry and does not constitute bribery.
I work for Toys R Us, the worlds largest retail toy chain, so maybe I can spare a little insight, as dealing with the vendors is a pretty large part of what I personally do for them.
Stuff like this is increadably common. We have our various manufacturers come in and give us displays, signage, demo models, shelf-talkers, promo giveaway items, etc. it's not bribery. We carry their merchandise, they want us to sell it. We want to sell it, since it makes us (and them) money. They provide the means to catch a customers eyes, since merchandising is a premium in a location with a fixed amount of space. A lot of time, they even provide someone to come in and do the work themselves, rather than having us allocate man-hours to the job. All in all, it's a good deal for both companies. Marketing is expensive, and if you shift that cost on to the retailer, it's not only unprofitable, but actively encourages the business only to sell a very limited amount of product, since they're only going to carry "guaranteed" sells at that point, and only ones with a large margin for profit at that.
Now, if the vendor came in and said "if you put up this sign/display/whatever, we'll give YOU (not the business) something", that would be bribery, and it'd be hugely unethical.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/02 22:34:13
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