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However to fire the death ray you still need to declare a legitimate target, it just doesnt mean that you have to try and hit it with ray.

Sorry bout the spam. Stupid phone sent this twice. Has anyone tried this at a tournament? Sounds pretty jammy. If I was rolling my line distance and someone declared jink I'd feel like a pretty unpleasant rules debate was about to break out. Not sure that it would be carried by many TOs...

Its a RAW argument. If you are a necron player ask before hand instead of trying to jump on someone during the match.

Ive never seen a wave serpent jinx a power klaw...

Dark Reapers can cause havoc. Mass krak missiles, with slow and purposeful, and they ignore jink. They are expensive as hell, but they will put out a lot of s8, and being ap3, they can handle wraithknights as well.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Lshowell wrote:
Am I wrong in assuming an unbound sternguard with Pedro in pods with melta would work?

Yes you are wrong. Serpents can jink for a 3+ cover save and makes Pens glances on 2+. It will take about 15 meltas to breakthrough that (and they aren't cheap on sternguard)

Assuming they havent fired the serpent shields, and if they dont take a conceal spiritseer their jink is only a 4+. Also if you can get into rear armor, ignores cover rounds can glance it to death no problem

hands down, the best army for dealing with eldar, is eldar.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Lshowell wrote:
Am I wrong in assuming an unbound sternguard with Pedro in pods with melta would work?

Yes you are wrong. Serpents can jink for a 3+ cover save and makes Pens glances on 2+. It will take about 15 meltas to breakthrough that (and they aren't cheap on sternguard)

Assuming they havent fired the serpent shields, and if they dont take a conceal spiritseer their jink is only a 4+. Also if you can get into rear armor, ignores cover rounds can glance it to death no problem

The mobility of the serpent makes it difficult to get rear armour, pods are good but the player knows what you have and will put their ass ends against stuff so you cant hurt it.

If all that happens, and they dont have ANY cover at all, then yes, they have a 4+ cover save, but if they have any cover its a 3+, and if they are positioned properly its a 2+

 Eldarain wrote:
A full Crisis team with missile pods and target locks and Marker Drones led by Buff Commander are very good against them.

A unit cannot benefit from its own markerlights, unless they're networked. Unless you're talking about 2 units, then you're right. But I think Missile Pods are better against WS (as Zagman posted)

chadbrochill17 wrote:
hands down, the best army for dealing with eldar, is eldar.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Lshowell wrote:
Am I wrong in assuming an unbound sternguard with Pedro in pods with melta would work?

Yes you are wrong. Serpents can jink for a 3+ cover save and makes Pens glances on 2+. It will take about 15 meltas to breakthrough that (and they aren't cheap on sternguard)

Assuming they havent fired the serpent shields, and if they dont take a conceal spiritseer their jink is only a 4+. Also if you can get into rear armor, ignores cover rounds can glance it to death no problem

The mobility of the serpent makes it difficult to get rear armour, pods are good but the player knows what you have and will put their ass ends against stuff so you cant hurt it.

If all that happens, and they dont have ANY cover at all, then yes, they have a 4+ cover save, but if they have any cover its a 3+, and if they are positioned properly its a 2+

We are also forgetting that serpent spam lists rely heavily on their WS for any kind of damage output as well, and forcing them to jink puts a significant dent in that output. I would call stripping some hull points off of a serpent and forcing it to jink a victory, honestly. Usually whats in side of it (5 dire avengers) will fail to do any significant damage if they get out and try to shoot, and staying inside a vehicle that can only snapfire severy limits that whole units effectiveness.

My blood angels jumper list has a pretty good time against serpent spam. Jink and serpent shields are nice, but do nothing if you make the charge against the vehicle.

 Aleph-Sama wrote:
Dark Reapers can cause havoc. Mass krak missiles, with slow and purposeful, and they ignore jink. They are expensive as hell, but they will put out a lot of s8, and being ap3, they can handle wraithknights as well.

This would scare me....not at all. You get one guaranteed serpent killed. Then only one serpent (and I would have at least 2 more) would be able to dish out enough damage to cripple the squad. And, dark reapers are crazy expensive compared to the serpents.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Lshowell wrote:
Am I wrong in assuming an unbound sternguard with Pedro in pods with melta would work?

Yes you are wrong. Serpents can jink for a 3+ cover save and makes Pens glances on 2+. It will take about 15 meltas to breakthrough that (and they aren't cheap on sternguard)

You drop the Sternguard in behind the Serpents. Rear armour is not protected by the Shield. Also the Jink cover save would be a t best 4+, and that is if it has moved. If SMs go first, that Jink save is only a 5+.

Plasma should outperform Melta significantly. S7 is the sweet spot. 3HP isn't a lot, so don't discount glances.

Marines with Rhinos, Bikes, or pods can take on Serpents. If the Serpents commit, you can get rear armor. If they don't commit, they can't do the damage they need to. Either way, it can work.

AV10 plus no Serpent Shield means if you can charge one with krak grenades, or shoot into rear armor at all, you should be able to drop it. Not that the Sheild will usually be up past t1.

 Happyjew wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Lshowell wrote:
Am I wrong in assuming an unbound sternguard with Pedro in pods with melta would work?

Yes you are wrong. Serpents can jink for a 3+ cover save and makes Pens glances on 2+. It will take about 15 meltas to breakthrough that (and they aren't cheap on sternguard)

You drop the Sternguard in behind the Serpents. Rear armour is not protected by the Shield. Also the Jink cover save would be a t best 4+, and that is if it has moved. If SMs go first, that Jink save is only a 5+.

What eldar player is going to let you drop pod behind their wave serpent?

And jink is always a 4+, regardless of moving or not.

Also I though wave serpants can buy +1 to their cover save?

How about Legion of the Damned dropping in behind and using melta?

Deep strike 3 DE reapers and hit them all with its beam attack. Only the one you target can jink, against vehicles it inflicts d3 haywire hits. If the first one doesn't kill more than one the next will, and the next should finish them off.

Grey hunters, dual melta, wg pack leader with combi melta and melta bombs in a drop pod. They demolish wave serpents, land raiders and basically anything else with an armor value that doesn't fly. First turn when you drop light it up with melta, second turn assault and finish it off. Then find cover or camp objective.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Lshowell wrote:
Am I wrong in assuming an unbound sternguard with Pedro in pods with melta would work?

Yes you are wrong. Serpents can jink for a 3+ cover save and makes Pens glances on 2+. It will take about 15 meltas to breakthrough that (and they aren't cheap on sternguard)

Assuming they havent fired the serpent shields, and if they dont take a conceal spiritseer their jink is only a 4+. Also if you can get into rear armor, ignores cover rounds can glance it to death no problem

It's 3+ with a holofield, which is currently standard in competitive lists, because it nets a 50% raw HP increase at a minimum.
A conceal would add to that but it's not a realistic use case. Nobody wants to put their psyker in the open just to up the save of just one hull.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

chadbrochill17 wrote:
hands down, the best army for dealing with eldar, is eldar.

The mobility of the serpent makes it difficult to get rear armour, pods are good but the player knows what you have and will put their ass ends against stuff so you cant hurt it.

If all that happens, and they dont have ANY cover at all, then yes, they have a 4+ cover save, but if they have any cover its a 3+, and if they are positioned properly its a 2+

The mobility you're talking about happens on a table that's 72x48 for a tank that's about 7x4.
It's nowhere near what you imagine, but yes WS will try to cover their backs, especially when expecting pods.
This does not matter since it's usually melta pods and av10 or 12 is the same.
If they jink with holofield its 3+, ruin cover is also 3+ with holofield, and your properly positioned is bs, you will never achieve that for 6 turns for even just one hull, let alone 4-6.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

You drop the Sternguard in behind the Serpents. Rear armour is not protected by the Shield. Also the Jink cover save would be at best 4+, and that is if it has moved. If SMs go first, that Jink save is only a 5+.

What eldar player is going to let you drop pod behind their wave serpent?

And jink is always a 4+, regardless of moving or not.

Also I though wave serpants can buy +1 to their cover save?

Jink starts at 4+, WS usually have a holofield (15) that gives +1 to cover save.
Rear or front armor is somewhat irrelevant outside of first turn if you're melta-ing though, as WS tend to fire their shield at all times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Toofast wrote:
Grey hunters, dual melta, wg pack leader with combi melta and melta bombs in a drop pod. They demolish wave serpents, land raiders and basically anything else with an armor value that doesn't fly. First turn when you drop light it up with melta, second turn assault and finish it off. Then find cover or camp objective.

If you don't explode it first turn, it will be either out of range, or your grey hunters will be dead.

Orkses in battlewagonz. Nothing better than mellee to deal with wave serpents. Force them to fly away from you and they don't utilize their mobility. Requires some cunnin' placing on the ork's part, no more than usual though.

I only recently found out that holofields only work if you moved the previous turn. So no holofields in turn one if Eldar go second. The last tournament I was at was won by an eldar player with four serpents and no holofields, so check your opponents list. (It didn't matter as he got the shrouded bubble round his farseer and they had Stealth Ruins warlord trait so 2+ cover without jinking)

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
How about Legion of the Damned dropping in behind and using melta?

This plus vulkan seems to work well. 3 Melta shots that ignore cover and reroll hits = dead serpent

Kholzerino wrote:
I only recently found out that holofields only work if you moved the previous turn. So no holofields in turn one if Eldar go second. The last tournament I was at was won by an eldar player with four serpents and no holofields, so check your opponents list. (It didn't matter as he got the shrouded bubble round his farseer and they had Stealth Ruins warlord trait so 2+ cover without jinking)

Well you only recently found out that in sixth edition it was the case.
In 7th edition, you may decide to Jink when a unit is targeted explicitly by your opponent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iinvisionx wrote:

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
How about Legion of the Damned dropping in behind and using melta?

This plus vulkan seems to work well. 3 Melta shots that ignore cover and reroll hits = dead serpent

And next turn that unit is dead.

But the main point is: the WS is not the problem.
It's not what's kicking your ass, it's pretty weak by itself.

You don't need an army to deal with Wave Serpents, you need an army to deal with Wave Serpents and whatever they are supporting.

morgoth wrote:

And next turn that unit is dead.

But the main point is: the WS is not the problem.
It's not what's kicking your ass, it's pretty weak by itself.

You don't need an army to deal with Wave Serpents, you need an army to deal with Wave Serpents and whatever they are supporting.

Well yeah if they are unsupported, when they come in and you have a bunch of other stuff in their face all at once they have some difficult decisions to make. Target saturation all day long.

I'm aware of how the mechanic of jink works, and how it has shifted in 7th. However in the Holofields description it says specifically that you get +1 to your jink save "provided you have moved in the previous turn" this hasn't been FAQed but it reads separate to the old jink mechanic...?

Holofields is +1 to cover.

Jink is a cover save

Holofields are plus one to cover "providing the vehicle moved in the previous turn". I read it from the codex last night.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also checked the FAQ in case it had been tweaked to reflect the change in the jink mechanic. It has not been.

Kholzerino wrote:
Holofields are plus one to cover "providing the vehicle moved in the previous turn". I read it from the codex last night.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also checked the FAQ in case it had been tweaked to reflect the change in the jink mechanic. It has not been.

Actually you were right. Nice catch.

H o l o -fields
Harnessing kinetic energy to shimmer and distort the vehicle’s
silhouette, holo-fields prevent the foe from targeting vulnerable areas.
Provided the vehicle moved in the previous turn, it gains +1
cover save. If it does not already have a cover save, it gains a
6 + cover save.

So no holo-fields on T1 and no FAQ.

Don't assume Holofields are standard on Serpents. At Nova in the top 16 I know of three player, including the winner who did not have HoloField on their Serpents. And I believe they were the only ones fielding Serpents in the Top Bracket. Neither the 1st, 2nd, or 6th place finisher had them.

So, how are holofields an auto take?

It's been said, but white scar bikes with khan (so they have outflank) are a pretty good hard counter to serpents, if you get first turn you have a really good chance of getting into assault with them on the top of turn 2 and 4-5 units of bikes with some characters as well are too amny targets for the eldar to deal with in 1 volley. If second you can always outflank for the alpha strike.

Assault assault assault. That is how you kill serpents anything that can get there quickly and survive 1-2 rounds of fire will do fine.

Dark angels 4++ land raider spam of doom. Laugh as their beat gun fails to get a pen result better than 3 EVERY TIME, and less than 2 make it through the rolling and saves every time.

Take some thundernators or fist vets and rip em apart at close range.

th3maninblak wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Lshowell wrote:
Am I wrong in assuming an unbound sternguard with Pedro in pods with melta would work?

Yes you are wrong. Serpents can jink for a 3+ cover save and makes Pens glances on 2+. It will take about 15 meltas to breakthrough that (and they aren't cheap on sternguard)

Assuming they havent fired the serpent shields, and if they dont take a conceal spiritseer their jink is only a 4+. Also if you can get into rear armor, ignores cover rounds can glance it to death no problem

Spiritseers cast a blessing on themselves, which affects their unit. So you cannot cast conceal on a Wave Serpent. Having a farsee cast shrouding and effecting 3-4 nearby serpents IS something that happens

Happyjew wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Lshowell wrote:
Am I wrong in assuming an unbound sternguard with Pedro in pods with melta would work?

Yes you are wrong. Serpents can jink for a 3+ cover save and makes Pens glances on 2+. It will take about 15 meltas to breakthrough that (and they aren't cheap on sternguard)

You drop the Sternguard in behind the Serpents. Rear armour is not protected by the Shield. Also the Jink cover save would be a t best 4+, and that is if it has moved. If SMs go first, that Jink save is only a 5+.

4+ regardless. 3+ with holofields if it moved.

LoTD with 3 melta.is half decent. But if the Eldar player has his serpent shield up, you're looking at two glances, factoring in BS.