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Farsight Bomb? With lots of fusion. I'm going to a tourney soon and the last one I went to was dominated by 4-6 wave serpent builds and I'm toying with bringing extreme anti-meta for the joy of removing serpents.
A full Crisis team with missile pods and target locks and Marker Drones led by Buff Commander are very good against them.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Eldarain wrote: A full Crisis team with missile pods and target locks and Marker Drones led by Buff Commander are very good against them.
Replace Crisis Suits with Broadsides and yeah sure that will work out pretty well. Crisis Suits will die too quickly to the return fire, while the 2+ saves on the Broadsides will keep them going much longer. Range isn't really an issue as you have the same range as the Scatter Lasers on the Serpents (and sitting on the back edge only firing the Shield isn't going to kill much against 2+ armour), but the design of the Serpent has the main gun a good couple of inches behind the front edge of the tank. With Ignores Cover a unit of Broadsides has decent odds to kill a Serpent even if they are Snapping anyway.
Serpent Spams biggest weakness is not S7 shooting - its assault units. Marine Bike lists crush Serpent Spam (they crush most things to be fair). They are fast enough to close the gap and corral the Serpents so that you control board position. T5 means they are durable enough to make it across the board against the torrent, you can MSU to mini/max casualties/damage output and a Chapter Master tanking at the front of a unit with a 2+ save and FNP is tough for anyone to put down. They can shoot very effectively as well - Grav will put any supporting WKs in the dirt and are still useful against Serpent. Once you get in close a unit of charging Bikes are going to make a Serpent very sad and Eldar don't have anything that can deal with a Chapter Master in melee.
I'm not as up to date on the competitive meta as I was at the end of 6th, but my local meta was swinging away from Serpent Spam at the end of 6th because it just had no game whatsoever against White Scars bike spam, and had serious issues against other fast and durable assault lists (Daemons, JetCouncil and Beaststars mostly). I suspect any fast Invis assault units will do well against them now.
It's not difficult to kill Wave Serpents. Take an abundance of anti tank and be aggressive. Chaos Rhinos with Havoc launchers and two plasma guns on the Marines inside. Three of those in various forms (Plague Marines, CSM, blah blah), Hades Autocannons on Forgefiends can kill a shielded Serpent each turn. Space Marines can send a Dreadnaught with Lascannons and Missile Launchers ahead and has the durability to take hits and pierce a Serpent if it dares to shoot shields. Bikes aren't as survivable, but there are plenty of options for Melta with them. Multi meltas for everyone! Honestly, hem in Serpents with mass shots from Stormtalons with missiles and punish them if they try to shoot shields using the bikes and Dreadnaughts.
I'm not finding my Serpent too survivable on it's own and maybe it's very different with spamming it, but there's some significant threats that I worry about.
2014/09/02 01:14:03
Subject: Re:Best army for dealing with Wave Serpents
Lshowell wrote: Am I wrong in assuming an unbound sternguard with Pedro in pods with melta would work?
Yes you are wrong. Serpents can jink for a 3+ cover save and makes Pens glances on 2+. It will take about 15 meltas to breakthrough that (and they aren't cheap on sternguard)
2014/09/02 01:14:06
Subject: Re:Best army for dealing with Wave Serpents
You dont need to necessarily kill wave serpents, you just need to stop them from shooting.
So if you can make it so they cant fire their shield(to reduce pens) or they are jinking every turn they are losing a lot of their firepower as a result.
An ignore cover buff commander as well as some melta drop suits just to make them keep their shields up will go pretty far IMO.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/02 02:52:15
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Two five man sternguard with melta in pods, with a couple las backs and devs to back them up will take two, if youre lucky three. Works for me everytime
At the very least keep them jinking so their return fire dies
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/02 03:04:27
Eldarain wrote: A full Crisis team with missile pods and target locks and Marker Drones led by Buff Commander are very good against them.
Replace Crisis Suits with Broadsides and yeah sure that will work out pretty well. Crisis Suits will die too quickly to the return fire, while the 2+ saves on the Broadsides will keep them going much longer. Range isn't really an issue as you have the same range as the Scatter Lasers on the Serpents (and sitting on the back edge only firing the Shield isn't going to kill much against 2+ armour), but the design of the Serpent has the main gun a good couple of inches behind the front edge of the tank. With Ignores Cover a unit of Broadsides has decent odds to kill a Serpent even if they are Snapping anyway.
Serpent Spams biggest weakness is not S7 shooting - its assault units. Marine Bike lists crush Serpent Spam (they crush most things to be fair). They are fast enough to close the gap and corral the Serpents so that you control board position. T5 means they are durable enough to make it across the board against the torrent, you can MSU to mini/max casualties/damage output and a Chapter Master tanking at the front of a unit with a 2+ save and FNP is tough for anyone to put down. They can shoot very effectively as well - Grav will put any supporting WKs in the dirt and are still useful against Serpent. Once you get in close a unit of charging Bikes are going to make a Serpent very sad and Eldar don't have anything that can deal with a Chapter Master in melee.
I'm not as up to date on the competitive meta as I was at the end of 6th, but my local meta was swinging away from Serpent Spam at the end of 6th because it just had no game whatsoever against White Scars bike spam, and had serious issues against other fast and durable assault lists (Daemons, JetCouncil and Beaststars mostly). I suspect any fast Invis assault units will do well against them now.
I'm going to disagree on a few points. Broadsides aren't necessarily better. The mobility crisis bring to the table is huge, and the BuffCommander has the 2+ save anyway. Actually a BuffCommander is more resilient than all three Broadsides combined when he has FNP and Iridium. Good serpent players will use LOS blocking terrain to make sure only one Broadside is visible or only one is in range back. Then you can make snap shots to return fire. Crisis moving in and out of cover is huge, ignores cover is extremely important.
You are right about Biker armies,except that the Meta doesn't favor them as it had in the past and they are far less common. Serpent spam counters Invisibility fairly well, in the same way Serpents are adequate AA. Being Twinlinked still allows them to throw wounds around Snap Shots.
I have the feeling that a BuffCommander and MP Crisis squad was recommended as it is exactly what I did against a phenomenal a serpent Spam playing 15 year old in game 8 at NOVA yesterday in the top bracket. He had made it to the semi finals before his first loss and then got paired against me.
Eldarain wrote: A full Crisis team with missile pods and target locks and Marker Drones led by Buff Commander are very good against them.
Replace Crisis Suits with Broadsides and yeah sure that will work out pretty well. Crisis Suits will die too quickly to the return fire, while the 2+ saves on the Broadsides will keep them going much longer. Range isn't really an issue as you have the same range as the Scatter Lasers on the Serpents (and sitting on the back edge only firing the Shield isn't going to kill much against 2+ armour), but the design of the Serpent has the main gun a good couple of inches behind the front edge of the tank. With Ignores Cover a unit of Broadsides has decent odds to kill a Serpent even if they are Snapping anyway.
Serpent Spams biggest weakness is not S7 shooting - its assault units. Marine Bike lists crush Serpent Spam (they crush most things to be fair). They are fast enough to close the gap and corral the Serpents so that you control board position. T5 means they are durable enough to make it across the board against the torrent, you can MSU to mini/max casualties/damage output and a Chapter Master tanking at the front of a unit with a 2+ save and FNP is tough for anyone to put down. They can shoot very effectively as well - Grav will put any supporting WKs in the dirt and are still useful against Serpent. Once you get in close a unit of charging Bikes are going to make a Serpent very sad and Eldar don't have anything that can deal with a Chapter Master in melee.
I'm not as up to date on the competitive meta as I was at the end of 6th, but my local meta was swinging away from Serpent Spam at the end of 6th because it just had no game whatsoever against White Scars bike spam, and had serious issues against other fast and durable assault lists (Daemons, JetCouncil and Beaststars mostly). I suspect any fast Invis assault units will do well against them now.
I'm going to disagree on a few points. Broadsides aren't necessarily better. The mobility crisis bring to the table is huge, and the BuffCommander has the 2+ save anyway. Actually a BuffCommander is more resilient than all three Broadsides combined when he has FNP and Iridium. Good serpent players will use LOS blocking terrain to make sure only one Broadside is visible or only one is in range back. Then you can make snap shots to return fire. Crisis moving in and out of cover is huge, ignores cover is extremely important.
You are right about Biker armies,except that the Meta doesn't favor them as it had in the past and they are far less common. Serpent spam counters Invisibility fairly well, in the same way Serpents are adequate AA. Being Twinlinked still allows them to throw wounds around Snap Shots.
I have the feeling that a BuffCommander and MP Crisis squad was recommended as it is exactly what I did against a phenomenal a serpent Spam playing 15 year old in game 8 at NOVA yesterday in the top bracket. He had made it to the semi finals before his first loss and then got paired against me.
More the fantastic advice you provided me while I was assembling my Tau force (And my experience since) But as you were preparing for Nova at the time there is definitely some crossover.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Wave Serpents, like most vehicles, can't withstand krak grenades.
Trying to shoot them is playing their game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/02 04:30:47
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
2014/09/02 08:14:49
Subject: Re:Best army for dealing with Wave Serpents
Lshowell wrote: Am I wrong in assuming an unbound sternguard with Pedro in pods with melta would work?
Yes you are wrong. Serpents can jink for a 3+ cover save and makes Pens glances on 2+. It will take about 15 meltas to breakthrough that (and they aren't cheap on sternguard)
Yes, in the world of you can use every single ability every turn of vacuum doom, yes you can.
In reality, if you want those Wave Serpents to be worth their cost, you must fire their Serpent shield each and every turn, which means at best they have a Jink 3+ cover save, which on average takes 3 successful shots for an unsaved wound.
Using meltas with BS4 and within fusion range, that's 1/45 (2/3 * 1/3 * 3/36) glances and 10/45 (2/3 * 1/3 * 30/36) pens per shot.
Out of fusion range, you get 1/9 (2/3 * 1/3 * 1/6) glances and 2/9 (2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3) pens.
1 AP1 pen will result in 1/3 explosions, 1/6 imo which if happens twice is another hp, 1/6 weapon destroyed that can remove the scatter laser, and 1/3 who gives a feth.
2 AP1 pens will result in 2/3 explosions, 1/3 wrecked due to imo, 1/3 weapon destroyed which will remove the scatter laser, and 1/3 w/e bro.
15 meltas would thus, in fusion range, deal a bit more than 5 hull points to a Jinking Wave Serpent.
Bring 9 and you should down one per turn.
That being said.
People focus on Wave Serpent as if they were the real threat, they're not.
They're awesome support, they let you run without other AA, they can handle light vehicle spam and a ton of other stuff.
But they can't handle assault or high AV.
If your enemy has like 4-6 WS, he can't win against any decent list just with the WS.
What's making those WS work - and I know because I roll without - is the units that support it, Beaststar, Seerstar or WK, the units that actually give the AV punch and/or give board control / can handle assault.
If you want to beat a WS spamming list, you need to realize that the WS are just good support, they suck on their own, they couldn't handle any real army, and the only reason they're so terrifying is that they're left untouched, because your hands are tied elsewhere.
Focus on their support, corner them, party.
On a 48" by 72" table, there are only so many places where you can stuff 6 7" by 4" skimmers, it's already at most 48" by 24" at deployment time, and 48" by 12" after one round of movement.
Remember, they cannot handle any kind of assault.
Any ridiculous S4 unit will, on a 6, deal one HP to those vehicles.
Any real assault unit will wreck a WS a turn without effort.
Force the assault, win.
Break what's preventing you from it first though, because that's your real problem, not the WS.
Easily easily easily Necrons. No-one else is even remotely close!
1. Veiltek with stormtek royal court. Deepstrikes next to a WS. Deletes.
2. Warrior unit in nightscythe with attached stormteks. Drops of unit accurately next to WS, contributes to destruction with tesla destructor.
3. Mass anni barges - almost 5 st7 hits on average each, not easily taken down by serpents in return, for a mere 90pts.
4. Overlord on CCB. Can quickly get to grips with a serpent, causing both sweeping and assault attacks with a st7 armourbane weapon.
5. Wraiths with destroyer lord. Not easy to take down with 2W and a 3++. Mass rending attacks with PE and a DL with st7 armourbane attacks.
6. Doom scythe. Can hit multiple WS with a st10 line, who then can't jink as they are not the target of the attack.
7. Mass gauss - with every shot glancing on a 6. A blob in rapid fire range will do serious damage to a jinking serp and will outright kill a non jinking serp.
8. Mind in the machine. Take over your opponents vehicle that is best at killing serps or simply take over a vehicle that is in the rear arc of the serp.
All that is not even considering all the LOW that necrons have access to.
2. Don't forget you only snapshot if you moved more than 24". I can deny those drops tbh.
3. undercosted, no discussion there.
4. same
5. not true. easy to take down with WStbh. Very dangerous too so priority target, you need scarabs or something else to divert fire away from them
6. indeed
7. indeed.
Very clearly Necrons are the doom of anything mech, and especially Eldar mech imo.
However, you're counting on flat WS, which is not going to happen in a competitive list.
Guy at my store runs literally as many Hive Guard as he can put into his Tyranid list with Impaler Cannons. Spamming S8 ignore cover and don't need LoS shots is awesome against serpents.
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
Okay. You can't jink from death ray?!?! How is this cheese played out? And do I have the balls to try whatever semantically slippery raw argument out? (I like it - tell me more)
Kholzerino wrote: Okay. You can't jink from death ray?!?! How is this cheese played out? And do I have the balls to try whatever semantically slippery raw argument out? (I like it - tell me more)
In order to declare jinking the unit has to be the target of a shooting attack. Death Rays don't target units though, they target a point on the ground so no chance to declare a jink (though if it was already jinking it doesn't matter)
Kholzerino wrote: Okay. You can't jink from death ray?!?! How is this cheese played out? And do I have the balls to try whatever semantically slippery raw argument out? (I like it - tell me more)
You can only jink when targeted. Death Ray doesn't target a unit.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
gmaleron wrote: Guy at my store runs literally as many Hive Guard as he can put into his Tyranid list with Impaler Cannons. Spamming S8 ignore cover and don't need LoS shots is awesome against serpents.
gmaleron wrote: Guy at my store runs literally as many Hive Guard as he can put into his Tyranid list with Impaler Cannons. Spamming S8 ignore cover and don't need LoS shots is awesome against serpents.
Impaler Cannons ignore cover?
Yup.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Okay. You can't jink from death ray?!?! How is this cheese played out? And do I have the balls to try whatever semantically slippery raw argument out? (I like it - tell me more)
Kholzerino wrote: Okay. You can't jink from death ray?!?! How is this cheese played out? And do I have the balls to try whatever semantically slippery raw argument out? (I like it - tell me more)
You posted this a half hour ago and it got answered three times
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
6000+
2500
2000
2000
