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Wraithknight will win, hands down. I've done it about 20 times in my history of using wraith knights.

I have used 2 or 3 in many battles, and for me I have found that having 2, one stock, and one with the suncannon, gives me the perfect coverage of firepower for my builds.

Suncannon targets mobs or elite infantry, and assaults weaker things

wraithcannon kills high AV, insta-kills MCs, and assaults weaker things.

I rarely lose both, often lose one... also, If you work to mitigate tarpitting, the resilience will astound you.

morgoth - I know on paper the WK doesn't look too impressive, which is why when the codex dropped they were poo-poo'd to no end (which is a lot of the reason I got them)... but when you actually put the on the table and use them, you quickly see how powerful they are. Maybe they won't fit your playstyle, which is fine.. there are tons of good choices from that codex, but i find that Eldar lack long range high strength firepower, and these units can provide just that on a hearty platform. Hard counters are out there for every unit, so try not to look at the unit in a vacuum, but within the context of your list.

for example, If I run wave serpents and knights, I have negated a lot of the classic firepower a lot of armies use. Or at the very least mitigate it. Wyverns, thunderfire, anti-infantry firepower (redeemer LR), anything below STR 5 is useless, until they kill a WK or pop a serpent. Very tough for a lot of lists to deal with.

I'd love to hear about how your playtesting goes. I was surprised when I started using them as to how much they really change your opponents actions and tactics, just by being tall lol. Also, exploit the ruins cover and you'll mitigate those grav guns and such.

I'm comparing a 240 points unit with other 240 points units, I have no reason to limit my comparison to MCs.

But you are not limiting yourself to a comparison with MCs, you are simply not comparing them at all. WK is an MC, if you are looking for a good indication of its durability in relation to its points, then compare it to another MC.

A Flying HT with 2x BLW and electoshock grubs is 240 points. It has T6 W4 and a 3+ save. It is potentially more durable against heavy weapons because of flying, but as soon as it comes down, or is targeted by another flyer, then it is obviously not in the same league as the WK.

A riptide can vary in points but will usually be around the 200ish mark. They have T6 and W5 a 2+/5++ save. Compared to a WK they are less durable vs small arms fire and anything up to plasma, and suffer a crippling weakness to cc. On the other hand they are more durable vs things like lascannons and have the great advantage of JSJ. The thing with riptides however is that they are not that great without support, both in terms of melee defense, and markerlights. One won combat and you can sweep a riptide. They also have a nice habit of burning through their own wounds due to nova charging. Imo in a straight up firefight they are more durable, especially if you can hide behind stuff. However they do not control the board like a WK does, and suffer from not being fearless.

Personally I prefer fighting riptides over WKs. I don't shoot them, I just take out the markers, charge, and either sweep or tie them up for the rest of the game. This is more difficult vs the WK.

The prevalence of meltas is due to meta, not to an absolute game rule, whereas the resilience of both is dependent on game rules and not meta, and clearly in the favor of the Land Raider - which can even sport a wtf-worthy 4++.

You keep stating things with no supporting evidence. Landraiders are clearly stronger than WKs? How about if they both get charged by some DE haywire wyches? Melta, armourbane and haywire all exist alongside poison, rending and instant death, there are answers to both the WK and Raider. This aside, claiming one unit is more tough when theory crafting, but not when playing, is ridiculous.

Now about this 4++. You know you are playing eldar right? Get a farseer, stick him on a bike, and roll for the 4++ save power and invisibility. Problem solved. Now you have a wtf worthy 4++ save WK that can only be hit on 6's.
You could also take the same DA character that they use to get the 4++ save as an ally, and put him near your units.

 soomemafia wrote:

morgoth wrote:
240 points for 6 T8 wounds is not good.

A Land Raider is more durable for that price.

Depending on the weapon. Both are beyond the reach of small arms fire and are mostly vunerable to high S AT weapons. Snipers and poisoned weapons can also affect WK, but many weapons are superior against LR, while barely harming a Knight.

and there are other combos that are far more durable for the same price.

Name a few...

Other than this very special case of an anti land raider weapon fired at its optimal range, which would take 24 shots to kill a LR and 12 to kill a WK

What weapon is that? Melta?
A Melta fired at optimal range with BS4 has 11,6% chance to blow up a Land Raider and 47,7% chace to glance it. So it will take about nine shots to reliably destroy a Land Raider.
A Meltagun fired at 12" with BS4 has 33% chance to wound Wraithknight (22% if it has shield). So it would take 18 shots (28 if shielded) to reliably kill Knight.

Even a weapon that would most likely be more efficent against Knight will prove to be a surprise. Grav-cannon.
Dev Centurions with Grav Cannons and Grav-amp will glance a LR five times on average, destoying it in one shooting phase.
Against a Wraithknight, they will make an average of 5,92 wounds (assuming that he has a shield) so it would also kill it.

Knight still seems like a worse option to you? Consider this then. The weapons that affect it but won't harm a Raider (poisoned guns for example) have mostly short range and the Knight can easily avoid them.
But Land Raiders are a) more vunerable to long-ranged AT fire and b) are more forced to go close to the enemy to deliever the cc-forces inside and are therefore easier targets to Melta.

Melta/haywire/lance are the only cases where the LR takes more damage, and rightly so because they're anti vehicle solutions.
Against normal weapons, the WK is less resilient.
Against anti infantry / MC weapons, the WK is less resilient.


WK do not have shields by default or in any optimized configuration.
A gravgun will take 18 hits to kill a Land Raider (3x glance +2x IMO glance, one is too much but hey. can't do gak about that), 9 hits to kill a WraithKnight (3+).

And Land Raiders can get 4++.
And you're ignoring snipers, fleshbane and poison because it does not fit your argument.


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 Gangrel767 wrote:

morgoth - I know on paper the WK doesn't look too impressive, which is why when the codex dropped they were poo-poo'd to no end (which is a lot of the reason I got them)... but when you actually put the on the table and use them, you quickly see how powerful they are. Maybe they won't fit your playstyle, which is fine.. there are tons of good choices from that codex, but i find that Eldar lack long range high strength firepower, and these units can provide just that on a hearty platform. Hard counters are out there for every unit, so try not to look at the unit in a vacuum, but within the context of your list.

for example, If I run wave serpents and knights, I have negated a lot of the classic firepower a lot of armies use. Or at the very least mitigate it. Wyverns, thunderfire, anti-infantry firepower (redeemer LR), anything below STR 5 is useless, until they kill a WK or pop a serpent. Very tough for a lot of lists to deal with.

I'd love to hear about how your playtesting goes. I was surprised when I started using them as to how much they really change your opponents actions and tactics, just by being tall lol. Also, exploit the ruins cover and you'll mitigate those grav guns and such.

Don't worry, I know the WK is truly awesome, not only for its abilities but for the very good synergy with the rest of my army.

I'm just making clear that the WK's strong point is assault, not its meh shooting or very good but not best resilience


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

A Flying HT with 2x BLW and electoshock grubs is 240 points. It has T6 W4 and a 3+ save. It is potentially more durable against heavy weapons because of flying, but as soon as it comes down, or is targeted by another flyer, then it is obviously not in the same league as the WK.

A riptide can vary in points but will usually be around the 200ish mark. They have T6 and W5 a 2+/5++ save. Compared to a WK they are less durable vs small arms fire and anything up to plasma, and suffer a crippling weakness to cc. On the other hand they are more durable vs things like lascannons and have the great advantage of JSJ. The thing with riptides however is that they are not that great without support, both in terms of melee defense, and markerlights. One won combat and you can sweep a riptide. They also have a nice habit of burning through their own wounds due to nova charging. Imo in a straight up firefight they are more durable, especially if you can hide behind stuff. However they do not control the board like a WK does, and suffer from not being fearless.

Now about this 4++. You know you are playing eldar right? Get a farseer, stick him on a bike, and roll for the 4++ save power and invisibility. Problem solved. Now you have a wtf worthy 4++ save WK that can only be hit on 6's.
You could also take the same DA character that they use to get the 4++ save as an ally, and put him near your units.

1. That flyrant has no reason to come down, is a LOT more durable when flying.
2. The Riptide is another discussion, and is comparable to a WK in resilience.
3. Seriously ? Your best advice is to add two farseers (if you want 4++ and invisibility ... lol) so that the unit cost goes up to 470 points ? amazing. that's sure going to make the comparison meaningful.

morgoth wrote:

 soomemafia wrote:

morgoth wrote:
240 points for 6 T8 wounds is not good.

A Land Raider is more durable for that price.

Depending on the weapon. Both are beyond the reach of small arms fire and are mostly vunerable to high S AT weapons. Snipers and poisoned weapons can also affect WK, but many weapons are superior against LR, while barely harming a Knight.

and there are other combos that are far more durable for the same price.

Name a few...

Other than this very special case of an anti land raider weapon fired at its optimal range, which would take 24 shots to kill a LR and 12 to kill a WK

What weapon is that? Melta?
A Melta fired at optimal range with BS4 has 11,6% chance to blow up a Land Raider and 47,7% chace to glance it. So it will take about nine shots to reliably destroy a Land Raider.
A Meltagun fired at 12" with BS4 has 33% chance to wound Wraithknight (22% if it has shield). So it would take 18 shots (28 if shielded) to reliably kill Knight.

Even a weapon that would most likely be more efficent against Knight will prove to be a surprise. Grav-cannon.
Dev Centurions with Grav Cannons and Grav-amp will glance a LR five times on average, destoying it in one shooting phase.
Against a Wraithknight, they will make an average of 5,92 wounds (assuming that he has a shield) so it would also kill it.

Knight still seems like a worse option to you? Consider this then. The weapons that affect it but won't harm a Raider (poisoned guns for example) have mostly short range and the Knight can easily avoid them.
But Land Raiders are a) more vunerable to long-ranged AT fire and b) are more forced to go close to the enemy to deliever the cc-forces inside and are therefore easier targets to Melta.

Melta is the only case where the LR takes more damage.
WK do not have shields by default or in any optimized configuration.
A gravgun will take 18 hits to kill a Land Raider (3x glance +2x IMO glance, one is too much but hey. can't do gak about that), 9 hits to kill a WraithKnight (3+).

And Land Raiders can get 4++.
And you're ignoring snipers, fleshbane and poison because it does not fit your argument.

Do you actually read the other posts?

Armourbane, haywire, melta, lance, chainfists. You are the one ignoring these special rules. There are many weapons out there that can hurt a landraider.
This is just the same as poison, rending, fleshbane against the knight. They are both have counters (though outside of dark eldar fleshbane and poison are usually found only in assault).

You are also ignoring the fact that a landraider can explode from a single hit. Furthermore vehicles can become immobilized, lose weapons, and have their movement and firepower limited for a turn. A wk does not have these problems.

Landraiders can not get a 4++ save. You are wrong about this. They can only receive a 4++ save in the same ways that a Wraithknight can. So please stop stating otherwise. Neither unit inherently comes with a save. If you are considering a DW landraider, with a PFG techmarine inside, then it will actually cost 360 points, just so you know.

1. That flyrant has no reason to come down, is a LOT more durable when flying.

Except to hold objectives, get into assault, gets shot down, or needs to avoid flying off the board. Do you know how FMC work?
It is also still less durable than a WK against str 6 or less weapons even whilst in the air.

 Zagman wrote:
I honestly couldn't believe the OP when I read it.

Ditto. This is a strange thread, it's almost like arguing against a flat earther.

morgoth: if you haven't played against a wraithknight, I suggest you track down someone who has one and play against it. After a couple of games of having it rampage through your army, you'll come to appreciate how disproportionately durable and powerful it is for it's point cost. It's very disheartening when you spend a couple turns pouring 500+ points worth of lascannons and meltaguns into it just to strip off enough wounds to kill it (or have it just survive anyway, and spend the rest of the game purposely tar-pitting a blob of troops who can't hurt it).

(Also worth point out: it can get cover saves just by putting part of it's base into area terrain, so it's deceptively durable even against AP3 weapons)

Rx8Speed wrote:
Death match time. landraider vs wraithknight 1 vs 1 who will win? Lets settle this once and for all

That and what Land Raider Model?
Land Raider [God-Hammer]: Two Twin-Linked Las-Cannons. That is what 1-2 Wounds a Turn
Land Raider Crusader: It has got Twin Linked Assault-Cannon, Again 1-2 Wounds a turn
Land Raider Redeemer: It has got Twin Linked Assault-Cannon, Again 1-2 Wounds a turn
You have to Add a Multi-Melta and/or HK Missile to have a chance to inflict more wounds.

WK is less resilient to normal weapons? A WK can't be hurt by normal weapons. Just like a Landraider. The big difference between a Landraider and a WK is I can't one shot a WK, I've one shotted an awful lot of vehicles in my time.

This is a very very odd thread. About its only weakness is poison or sniper. Why is fleshbane a weakness? If something has fleshbane it has to get to you and you are a JMC with s10ap2 guns, no reason for anything with fleshbane to get near a mobile eldar army.

http://mathhammer40k.com/shooting/infantry

Check it for yourself 8 twinlinked melta shots statistically are not going to take down a wraithknight but definitely will take down a Landraider.

So lets make that clear, 8 TWINLINKED MELTA won't take one down. They are bloody tough, can't wait to get one.

(maths provided by the link, not my own calculations. s8, twin linked x8 shots on t8 with a 3+ save).

And on that note, probably a bit over powered to be honest. But I do love the model as well

Force weapons and remove from play mechanics can one shot a WK. Still, harder to do than killing a land raider.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Rx8Speed wrote:
Death match time. landraider vs wraithknight 1 vs 1 who will win? Lets settle this once and for all

That and what Land Raider Model?
Land Raider [God-Hammer]: Two Twin-Linked Las-Cannons. That is what 1-2 Wounds a Turn
Land Raider Crusader: It has got Twin Linked Assault-Cannon, Again 1-2 Wounds a turn
Land Raider Redeemer: It has got Twin Linked Assault-Cannon, Again 1-2 Wounds a turn
You have to Add a Multi-Melta and/or HK Missile to have a chance to inflict more wounds.

lol I was mostly being sarcastic, it's a pretty pointless exercise. But since the whole thread is actually pointless it's not so inappropriate to discuss it. On an unlimited size board the land raider wins every time (keeps backing up and shooting with superior range) on a normal board with reasonable amounts of cover, the wraithknight would probably win because of it's assault nastyness, 7 s10 ap2 attacks the turn it charges (counting the wraith cannons)

Assuming unlimited board and godhammer firing at max range:

1.2 wounds per shooting phase from lascannons. Moving 6in per turn and shooting, means it takes 5 turns to down the WK. WK moves 12 a turn and can also start shooting turn one. It does about half a hull point a turn, a fraction of which are pens which have variable chances to cause snap firing, immobilized results, destroy weapons, or kill it out right.

Not actually sure which wins, but instinct tells me WK.

Are there any MCs more resilient than a WK? Perhaps a flying nurgle DP with warp forged armour?

Even if a LR is more durable than a WK, it's a completely irrelevant comparison as they serve such different roles on the battlefield. May as well compare it to a fire storm redoubt!

Man, its been a while since Morgoth went on a rant of defending the Eldar codex and not nearly as powerful as it truly is. Now its the Waithnight......

Comedic gold, yet again.

 Zagman wrote:
Man, its been a while since Morgoth went on a rant of defending the Eldar codex and not nearly as powerful as it truly is. Now its the Waithnight......

Comedic gold, yet again.

You know, I thought it was him before. Just didn't want to say anything.

morgoth wrote:
240 points for 6 T8 wounds is not good.

For comparison...

Dakkafexes are 30 pts/ T6 wound.
Flyrants are 60 pts/T6 wound.
Tooled up Princes are 50? pts/T5 wound.

A WK is 40 pts/T*8* wound. That T8 is massive and you're ignoring it. Being immune to all small arms fire is a massive benefit that you're sweeping under the rug.
Especially since it's in an army that has a lot of vehicles, so any anti-tank weapon fired at the WK is a weapon not fired at a Wave Serpent.

Awesome.

Thanks for the information, it has cleared my mind of any doubts I had about those WK

And for the record, those "normal weapons" are lascannons for example, which do not have armored or MC special rules.
(LR: 12-ish hits WK: 9 hits)

I'd say that what seals the deal is the no pen hit roll.

Just to be sure though, how much do the other MCs see the competitive field (outside of the very special case of the flying tyrant) ?

morgoth wrote:
And for the record, those "normal weapons" are lascannons for example, which do not have armored or MC special rules.
(LR: 12-ish hits WK: 9 hits)

Are you counting how trivial it is to get cover with an MC vs a vehicle?

Just to be sure though, how much do the other MCs see the competitive field (outside of the very special case of the flying tyrant) ?

All the time.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:

So lets make that clear, 8 TWINLINKED MELTA won't take one down. They are bloody tough, can't wait to get one.

Melta is a specifically anti vehicle armor, I sure hope it does better against AV than against MC/infantry.

They are indeed bloody tough, and I can't wait to get three either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
And for the record, those "normal weapons" are lascannons for example, which do not have armored or MC special rules.
(LR: 12-ish hits WK: 9 hits)

Are you counting how trivial it is to get cover with an MC vs a vehicle?

Just to be sure though, how much do the other MCs see the competitive field (outside of the very special case of the flying tyrant) ?

All the time.

I'm not counting how trivial it is to get cover with an MC.
Probably because it's slowed to begin with, and my mind is busy with figuring out solutions to make all of my ruins and trees base less, which would drastically diminish that, for the sake of removing unsightly seams from the battlefield.
But you're right, it's an insane advantage to get 360 cover for just putting a foot on a base.

All the time. good. so I'll get lots of target I can just stomp into the ground with my WK ? gooood.

morgoth wrote:
I'm not counting how trivial it is to get cover with an MC.

So in reality LR is 12ish hits, and WKs are ... 12ish hits.

zomg.

Terror from the Deep wrote:
Are there any MCs more resilient than a WK? Perhaps a flying nurgle DP with warp forged armour?

Flying nurgle DP is tougher, but not by a whole lot (and also can be countered by ignores cover). If you get lucky and get Iron Arm as a psychic power, they can be nigh-unkillable. The Riptide can be tougher if you nova charge for a 3++ every turn (combined with earth caste array and stimulant injector for FNP). The difference, of course, is that the Wraithkngiht is just inherently tough as hell - if you're constantly rolling for your 3++ on the Riptide, then your wasting some it's potential.

LR is not 12 is hits because if you penetrate one or two things happen.

You potentially remove its utility through stunned, immobilised and weapon destroyed.

1/6 chance it is one hit and its dead.

Not a fair comparison, I'd still rather have a WK - for the record I do love land raiders.

Good thing the LR has more than just battle potential

Either way, I think the vehicle damage table and the magic cover bs seal the resilience deal quite nicely.

There are also Iyanden WraithKnights.. they can be a warlord and get a *possible* fnp and can (with luck) cast renewer and still use the wraithforge stone both in one turn.. let alone that he gets furious charge and battle focus with Iyanden.. that is a lot of tanking.. personally i think the sword plus shield is not too bad the whole point is 5+ invul and optional 6+ fnp optional renewer and 3+ regain wound (can you cast wraithforge stone from inside a transport?) .. anyway that sword ..it helps a lot and the reroll in cc matters when you have ws4.. he is probably best in melee.. i know people swear by the stock build but i think he might get 3 shooty hits per game if he is used right (and being used in melee ) so is three shots worth extra vulnerability? Not sure. My gut says just get him in cc asap anyway. So why stress the wraith canon loss? Anyway i am thinking 2 Wraithknights (swords ) 2 spiritseers (2 detachments, 2 wraithforge stones) and the rest serpents for my next tourney.. just pondering it

I don't know about the spiritseers tbh. They smell like dead meat to me and the points you outline seem valid yet a bit...

morgoth wrote:
Good thing the LR has more than just battle potential

Either way, I think the vehicle damage table and the magic cover bs seal the resilience deal quite nicely.

Thing is that is in itself a problem. If you are using it as a transport (and of course you are they aren't gunboats they just "have" that) then you get that stunned or heaven forbid immobilised. Gawd. Awful! I mean thank goodness that is not common but it can happen. Or you've got some slow termies in there and it gets wrecked and now you are down to footslogging. Instead of 250 you've just wasted 450-500p.

I haven't decided how I'll run mine yet. Stock does have the strongest arguments for it without a doubt but the 3 twinlinked ap2 st6 blasts sounds real nice. I just know I could replicate some of that S6 shooting and have the two times s10 for the same price.