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I've been looking at improving my army lists, and the first trend was to remove Fire Prisms (thank god) and include Wraith Knights.

The problem I'm facing is that from a numerical standpoint, Wraith Knights seem to suck.

With only 6 T8 wounds, vulnerable to fleshbane, poison, pseudo-rending, and only a 3+ save, the WK is a lot less resilient than a Land Raider for example.

My problem is comparing the efficiency of the WK against vehicles.

From my MathHammer quick tests, the WK appears a lot weaker against vehicles than a Fire Dragon squad, up to 2x weaker against AV14.
It's slightly better with the assault gear, but that's about it.

Against heavy vehicles, it's no better than two prisms, even when firing both D-cannons and charging in the same turn.

It's a lot stronger than a vehicle in assault, but many cheaper options will take it down or tarpit it without issues.


What am I missing ?

Your missing that his job really isn't to kill vehicles. You can make it work, but with the increased vehicle power in 7th, it's just not a very good bet.

He is a heavy infantry killer that can punch a land raider to death in a pinch, but only asa secondary option.

It's fast. 12" movement with Strength 10 melee at Initiative 5 is a potent area denial.

It's ranged weapons can sometimes remove valuable models in 1 shot.

T8 makes it immune to Strength 4 and lower which is something the rest of your army can't do.

It's a MC so if your foot is in area terrain you can claim cover saves (I hate this rule btw).

It compliments the Wave Serpent by providing a CC threat (turns out CC is the easiest way to kill a Wave Serpent) and providing ranged firepower for heavy armor without having to spend extra points.

That's the thing, I don't get how you're going to make anyone afraid of a WK in CC.

As far as I know he has no AP, and just about any assault unit will wreck his face or tarpit him for years.

I can definitely see waving his instant death sabre in the face of some MCs, but he's going to lose to any kind of terminators right ?

morgoth wrote:
That's the thing, I don't get how you're going to make anyone afraid of a WK in CC.

As far as I know he has no AP, and just about any assault unit will wreck his face or tarpit him for years.

I can definitely see waving his instant death sabre in the face of some MCs, but he's going to lose to any kind of terminators right ?

Monstrous Creatures have Smash, which grants all CC attacks as AP2. They also have Hammer of Wrath, which is another hit at AP- (still a save to make)
As stated before, it's immune to S4 so is a great infantry killer - and takes the heat of your vehicles when AT shots go into the WK rather than your Wave Serpents and such.

Against elite small units, it has a good chance to come out on top, against blobs, it's going to get tied up. Pick your battles carefully.

morgoth wrote:
That's the thing, I don't get how you're going to make anyone afraid of a WK in CC.

As far as I know he has no AP

Re-read what rules Monstrous Creatures have and what they do.

A wraithknight is a monstrous creature. All of his attacks are str 10 ap 2. He can instakill anything without Eternal Warrior. A lot of things don't like him in close combat.

Hey!

MCs have a special rule, I think it's 'smash' but it gives their cc attacks ap2. So the wraithknight's attacks are ap2 without the ghostglaive. All the sword does is let him re-roll a miss in cc

That makes a lot more sense.

So he's more supposed to be charging infantry rather than tanks ?

Also, AP2 means my earlier calculations are very far off, as the effect of AP on vehicle destroyed is huge.

Then it goes up to two turns to wreck a land raider. still a good deal worse than fire dragons, but then it does a lot of other things.

morgoth wrote:
That makes a lot more sense.

So he's more supposed to be charging infantry rather than tanks ?

Also, AP2 means my earlier calculations are very far off, as the effect of AP on vehicle destroyed is huge.

I edited my post regarding charging infantry.

And with 4 S10 attacks (+HoW),you're more than likely glancing vehicles to death.

Thanks for the refresh on MCs. It was much needed.

I thought HoW was always crap, but then it's not that bad with the WK.

I have been running wraith knights since the codex dropped and I have noticed a couple things.

Heavy Wraithcannon - Use these guys to hunt high AV targets in the early game. Also, if you have first turn, use the STR 10 gun to instant kill any T5 MCs on the table (demon princes, hive crones, etc...)

Suncannon/Shimmershield - The 5++ allows you to be slightly more aggressive when necessary. If coming across a number of instant death CC units, you can hope to use that 5++ to mitigate it. Use this gun to destroy elite infantry where possible. This guy eats broadsides and centurions for lunch. Time and time again I can deal a bunch of ap2 attacks against these units. I have also had great success using this gun against normal infantry blobs as well. I had one game vs tyranids where he killed 12-15 gaunts a turn. This doesn't seem like much for a 300 point model, but it means a lot on the table top.

General Tips - Use ruins for the 4+ cover as often as you can. As you are a jump monstrous creature, you can ignore the movement penalties for the ruins and still gain the save from it. This is big.

You don't have to smash to get those STR10 ap2 CC attacks, and this cannot be overstated, This is a huge boon, as those demon princes and hive crones we talked about earlier will just melt when you squish them to bits. You also have decent anti-Imperial Knight aswell. It's not cost efficient, but a wraith knight should be able to deal some damage to an IK and with some shooting support he can finish it off.

These units are huge board control units. People fear them (and rightfully so in some cases) Just having them on the table makes them a nice magnet for firepower (taking the heat off my serpents), and it helps to dictate where my enemy is going to attack me from as well.

WKs are not the invulnerable monsters they are sold to be, but they are an incredible unit which are a lot of fun to play. If you're lucky enough to get invisibility on it, then you can wreck face as they become incredibly hard to deal with.

The biggest advantage the WK has is being able to ignore STR 4 or less. This means most of the anti-infantry firepower found on the table top can't even hurt you, and even the high powered stuff has to work a little bit at it. This does mean he is susceptible to being tarpitted, but with practice, this is something you can mitigate.

I hope you found some of this useful. WKs are a lot of fun and I often have a hard time swapping them out for the other heavy choices, especially in a competitive setting.

I honestly couldn't believe the OP when I read it.

Wraithknights kill what they touch, have arranged and Melee S10 in spades, and move 12". They are definitely undercosted for what they can and do do on the table.

Thanks a bunch Gangrel.

I'm really having a hard time with those since they cost so much and I don't have any - and the competitive lists I write end up with three of them 95% of the time.

I guess I'll have to test them with 2D cardboard fakes lol.

To be honest OP is more or less right. For the points you spend you gain less fire power than if you just bought nearly any other unit from the heavy slot. Especially War Walkers.

The thing is Wraithknight is a great utility unit that can fit many different roles. Some of which are very unique.
For example imagine a Screamerstar, Khorne dog rush, (some other fast melee unit) that would just devastate your WSs in melee. You also don't have enough fire power to take them down in 1 turn. Send in a WK to tarpit that 700 points Screamerstar for enough turns to wipe all his supporting units. Just look out for Hit'n'Run.
You happen to face a Bargelord? This guy can tank about 10 melta shots and still stand. Luckily there is a model in our army that can insta kill him.
There are also some other situations when WK is handy. Of course, like any other model, he also has some downsides.

IMO, there is little use for two of your WK -the one with sword and the one with dual cannons (two BS 4 shots at ap2 just wont destroy a vehicle most of the time, no matter the S).

The cannon/shield combo, spiced with a laser lock scatter laser for 3 tvinlinked blast is wort every point and more.

Its ranged attacks easily murder any high point special units the enemies have. And the 12" move will soon get you close enough to start crushing heavy vehicles with the fists. Just bevare of poison.

 Fayric wrote:
IMO, there is little use for two of your WK -the one with sword and the one with dual cannons (two BS 4 shots at ap2 just wont destroy a vehicle most of the time, no matter the S).

The cannon/shield combo, spiced with a laser lock scatter laser for 3 tvinlinked blast is wort every point and more.

Its ranged attacks easily murder any high point special units the enemies have. And the 12" move will soon get you close enough to start crushing heavy vehicles with the fists. Just bevare of poison.

Two BS4 S10 shots might not destroy a vehicle per turn, but they are almost guaranteed to damage something. Vehicles aren't the best targets for them anyway, the ID on a 6 rule means they really scare MCs. In my experience the Shield/Cannon combo is a trap (as opposed to the Shield Sword option, which is a trap but its so bad no one falls for it, it would rate as one of the worst costed upgrades in the game - no sane person is going to pay points to lose 2 S10 guns for a single re-roll to hit in assault), Eldar have no need for more S6 shooting and the 5++ is really not that valuable, and you are increasing the cost of the model by 25% to get it. I find discussions on the points cost of the WK pretty interesting actually, at 240pts I think he is maybe slightly undercosted, but only slightly. The Sword/Shield option should be closer to 200pts, but the 300pt Cannon/Shield/Scatter combo is probably overcosted - I think this is mostly because GW massively overrated the usefulness of a 5++.

I found that you definitely don't need three of them, two is plenty and gives you room to fit in other support units. You can get 3 WK and 5 Serpents into 1850pts, but that is literally all you can get - only running 2 WK gives you more options.

Str 10 ....hands down that's the magic factor. Str10 is hard to come by, especially for Eldar. Having it on a fearless, T8/W6/3+, mobile MC is what makes them awesome.

Some people argue about the Suncannon, but i'll take the Wraithcannons everyday. In an army that sometimes lacks CC threats, he fixes that,while still adding to the gunline. Then, the model is awesome and he scares the bejeesus out of people.

Powerguy wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
IMO, there is little use for two of your WK -the one with sword and the one with dual cannons (two BS 4 shots at ap2 just wont destroy a vehicle most of the time, no matter the S).

The cannon/shield combo, spiced with a laser lock scatter laser for 3 tvinlinked blast is wort every point and more.

Its ranged attacks easily murder any high point special units the enemies have. And the 12" move will soon get you close enough to start crushing heavy vehicles with the fists. Just bevare of poison.

Two BS4 S10 shots might not destroy a vehicle per turn, but they are almost guaranteed to damage something. Vehicles aren't the best targets for them anyway, the ID on a 6 rule means they really scare MCs. In my experience the Shield/Cannon combo is a trap (as opposed to the Shield Sword option, which is a trap but its so bad no one falls for it, it would rate as one of the worst costed upgrades in the game - no sane person is going to pay points to lose 2 S10 guns for a single re-roll to hit in assault), Eldar have no need for more S6 shooting and the 5++ is really not that valuable, and you are increasing the cost of the model by 25% to get it. I find discussions on the points cost of the WK pretty interesting actually, at 240pts I think he is maybe slightly undercosted, but only slightly. The Sword/Shield option should be closer to 200pts, but the 300pt Cannon/Shield/Scatter combo is probably overcosted - I think this is mostly because GW massively overrated the usefulness of a 5++.

I found that you definitely don't need three of them, two is plenty and gives you room to fit in other support units. You can get 3 WK and 5 Serpents into 1850pts, but that is literally all you can get - only running 2 WK gives you more options.

Some good points.
The reason I like the S6 cannon is its 3 twinlinked(mostly) ap2 blasts. Sure massed fire can get rid of heavy armour anyway, but that cannon just anihilate any kind of unit.

morgoth wrote:


With only 6 T8 wounds

wut

 koooaei wrote:

morgoth wrote:


With only 6 T8 wounds

wut

I second this. Wut.

In all seriousness they are incredibly durable vs most armies, and quite cheap when taken as stock. They can utterly smash vehicles of any variety and provide a strong counter to many of the game's harder hitters.

240 points for 6 T8 wounds is not good.
A Land Raider is more durable for that price, and there are other combos that are far more durable for the same price.


The 2 S10 shots are almost worthless, they're about equal to one third of its damage in assault, and nowhere close to its point cost.


There is no discussion that the stock WK is by far the best WK.

morgoth wrote:
240 points for 6 T8 wounds is not good.
A Land Raider is more durable for that price, and there are other combos that are far more durable for the same price.

My melta sternguard would lika a word with you. 6 T8 wounds is incredibly durable, almost gargantuan creature level. Bolters can't even hurt it. Sure, AT counters it, but a LR still goes down faster to melta the current AT weapon favored in the meta. Not to mention if you get cover, which is easier on a WK than a LR

TompiQ wrote:

morgoth wrote:
240 points for 6 T8 wounds is not good.
A Land Raider is more durable for that price, and there are other combos that are far more durable for the same price.

My melta sternguard would lika a word with you. 6 T8 wounds is incredibly durable, almost gargantuan creature level. Bolters can't even hurt it. Sure, AT counters it, but a LR still goes down faster to melta the current AT weapon favored in the meta. Not to mention if you get cover, which is easier on a WK than a LR

Well, your melta sternguard in pods is properly insanely strong vs many other things, so I don't think it matters that it cannot handle the WK.
(I land in your rear armor you can't stop me, I'm in fusion range baby, and I managed to use one pod for two units trollololololol - what I can't instapop a MC too ? haxxxx !!!!)

Other than this very special case of an anti land raider weapon fired at its optimal range, which would take 24 shots to kill a LR and 12 to kill a WK otherwise, there are plenty of special weapons that do a lot better against the WK, from snipers to fleshbane to grav and a lot of other stuff.

I think we can agree that it's less durable than a Land Raider - and cannot transport units of course.

morgoth wrote:

A Land Raider is more durable for that price, and there are other combos that are far more durable for the same price.


I think we can agree that it's less durable than a Land Raider - and cannot transport units of course.

No. I don't agree. Landraiders have many counters too. In fact, I would say that the majority of lists out there are more able to deal with a landraider than a WK.

Also 240 points for T8 and 6 wounds isn't good? Try having a look at a tyrannid or daemon codex and get back to us. My 300+ point Deamon prince with T5 and 4 wounds would like a word.

The 2 S10 shots are almost worthless

Twice the firepower of a hammerhead is worthless? Against a blob maybe. Vs the right targets it is terminally lethal, especially considering the chance at instant death.

Are 2 str 10 shots worth 240 points? Probably not. Are 2 str 10 shots on a T8 6W jump platform who can punch out 9/10 of the rest of the games heavy hitters worth it? I would say certainly.

I don't think existing lists are a good argument against any balance tbh. Existing lists are based on previous lists so ... rock paper scissors != efficiency.

Hammerhead ? how many in a competitive list ? are they "just" BS4 in practice ? thought so.

Nobody cares about your prince, we're talking about a WK, which in truth is not the most resilient of things and has weaknesses that can be a lot more dangerous than those of the Land Raider, from poison to grav to ...

I don't have a doubt that the WK is worth its cost, I'm just trying to understand why exactly.

It's not its resilience, which is less than that of a Land Raider, and much less than a 4++ Land Raider.
It's not its firepower, which is very special, but rather inefficient overall.

It's the assault performance, combined with the mobility and the gap that it fills in a competitive list.

As I missed the fact that he got AP2 for being an MC, the assault performance looked a bit weak, now it's all clear to me, it should be clear to you too

Play a few games and then come back. As you didn't know that MCs ignore armour saves I'm under the impression that you haven't played that much, or at least correctly if so.

Nobody cares about your prince,

Fine ignore the prince. Compare the WK to a trygon, C'tan, greater daemon, hive tyrant (insert almost any other MC in the game here), and you will see that the WK is very durable by comparison.
I believe you are the ideal player by GW's logic "T8 and 6 wounds is too weak! We need something bigger!" I just don't understand how you are unable to call a WK durable. What are you smoking?

As I missed the fact that he got AP2 for being an MC, the assault performance looked a bit weak, now it's all clear to me, it should be clear to you too

Like the ranged weapons, a WK in assault is only strong if he is against the right opponents.

I've used a squad of pink horrors to tie up a WK for over 3 game turns before. They are great in the right place, and that place is beating on vehicles, elite squads (especially multi wound T5 units like plague drones or centurions) and other MCs.

Why is a WK strong? Here:

It's fast
It jumps over terrain
Very durable
Has str 10 attacks
Fearless
Initiative 5

All of these things combined make a unit who can deny a lot of board to the opponent, act as a great distraction carnifex and beat out other MCs/Walkers.

Bill, I don't think other MC's are an interesting comparison or that your snarky comment about my battle experience is relevant.

I'm comparing a 240 points unit with other 240 points units, I have no reason to limit my comparison to MCs.

The conclusion is the same: the WK is worth its points because it can deal 5 attacks S10AP2I5 in assault and has the same mobility as fast assault units.

The durability remains subpar compared to other options in the same point range and I don't know what you're smoking to think that it's comparable to a Land Raider in durability.

The prevalence of meltas is due to meta, not to an absolute game rule, whereas the resilience of both is dependent on game rules and not meta, and clearly in the favor of the Land Raider - which can even sport a wtf-worthy 4++.



And if you want to compare its resilience to another competitive MC's, tell me your thoughts on the IA Riptide and the Flying Hive Tyrant, because I'm under the impression both are more resilient as well.

morgoth wrote:
240 points for 6 T8 wounds is not good.

A Land Raider is more durable for that price.

Depending on the weapon. Both are beyond the reach of small arms fire and are mostly vunerable to high S AT weapons. Snipers and poisoned weapons can also affect WK, but many weapons are superior against LR, while barely harming a Knight.

and there are other combos that are far more durable for the same price.

Name a few...

Other than this very special case of an anti land raider weapon fired at its optimal range, which would take 24 shots to kill a LR and 12 to kill a WK

What weapon is that? Melta?
A Melta fired at optimal range with BS4 has 11,6% chance to blow up a Land Raider and 47,7% chace to glance it. So it will take about nine shots to reliably destroy a Land Raider.
A Meltagun fired at 12" with BS4 has 33% chance to wound Wraithknight (22% if it has shield). So it would take 18 shots (28 if shielded) to reliably kill Knight.

Even a weapon that would most likely be more efficent against Knight will prove to be a surprise. Grav-cannon.
Dev Centurions with Grav Cannons and Grav-amp will glance a LR five times on average, destoying it in one shooting phase.
Against a Wraithknight, they will make an average of 5,92 wounds (assuming that he has a shield) so it would also kill it.

Knight still seems like a worse option to you? Consider this then. The weapons that affect it but won't harm a Raider (poisoned guns for example) have mostly short range and the Knight can easily avoid them.
But Land Raiders are a) more vunerable to long-ranged AT fire and b) are more forced to go close to the enemy to deliever the cc-forces inside and are therefore easier targets to Melta.

Death match time. landraider vs wraithknight 1 vs 1 who will win? Lets settle this once and for all