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I don't know the text. But people were talking about all kinds of things like characters on monsters. That isn't a unit's profile. It's an addition.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
I don't know the text. But people were talking about all kinds of things like characters on monsters. That isn't a unit's profile. It's an addition.

The unit's profile says it's a monster.

The spell allows you to summon a monster for X points.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 DukeRustfield wrote:
I don't know the text. But people were talking about all kinds of things like characters on monsters. That isn't a unit's profile. It's an addition.

The unit's profile says it's a monster.

The spell allows you to summon a monster for X points.

The unit's profile also says it's a character, and the spell says INSTEAD of summoning a character, summon a monster.
Summoning a Mortarch isn't possible when you're told not to summon a character.

THe two level of Kondrak, are not the same spell, because isn't the same level of the spell, is another spell

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 DukeRustfield wrote:
I don't know the text. But people were talking about all kinds of things like characters on monsters. That isn't a unit's profile. It's an addition.

The unit's profile says it's a monster.

The spell allows you to summon a monster for X points.

The unit's profile also says it's a character, and the spell says INSTEAD of summoning a character, summon a monster.
Summoning a Mortarch isn't possible when you're told not to summon a character.

Yeah. And the unit is listed as a monster. It's pretty simple. Either you summon the mortarch using the character level, or the monster level. Because they fit into both categories.

fØrgive wrote:
THe two level of Kondrak, are not the same spell, because isn't the same level of the spell, is another spell

Its the same spell with a different casting level. But that doesn't matter. It's the 2nd casting value to bans you from summoning a character.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Yeah. And the unit is listed as a monster. It's pretty simple. Either you summon the mortarch using the character level, or the monster level. Because they fit into both categories.

I don't see why you can't grasp this.
You either summon a character (any unit type, as character has been shown to not be a unit type).
OR you cast the boosted spell, and you summon a unit type monster, INSTEAD OF A CHARACTER. The Mortarch is a monster, but it's also a character, and character is forbidden.
The word INSTEAD has meaning in the rule for the spell and cannot be ignored.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Yeah. And the unit is listed as a monster. It's pretty simple. Either you summon the mortarch using the character level, or the monster level. Because they fit into both categories.

I don't see why you can't grasp this.
You either summon a character (any unit type, as character has been shown to not be a unit type).
OR you cast the boosted spell, and you summon a unit type monster, INSTEAD OF A CHARACTER. The Mortarch is a monster, but it's also a character, and character is forbidden.
The word INSTEAD has meaning in the rule for the spell and cannot be ignored.

I grasp it just fine. Either you choose to summon a character. Or a Monster. A mortarch fits under both categories. There is no distinction. A Mortarch is a monster. A Mortarch is a character. Anything that affects monsters affects the mortarch. Lore of beasts won't affect Vlad, as he's infantry. But it will affect Neferata, as she's a monster. There is no added line of "Any model who happens to be a monster in addition to a character cannot be summoned." Which means, if anything is labelled monster, I.E. Mortarchs, then the spell will affect them. Both at the character level, and at the monster level.


FURTHERMORE, if we're in agreement that a character isn't a unit type, then your entire argument is invalid, as they can't be character+monsters. They're just monsters.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

I grasp it just fine. Either you choose to summon a character. Or a Monster. A mortarch fits under both categories.

And this is where you are WRONG.
You choose to summon a character (any unit type).
Or you summon a monsters instead of a character.
If the Mortarch fits both (which it does), you aren't summoning a monster instead of a character if you are still summoning a character.
Character rules stack on the unit type rules. You can have infantry, cavalry, monstrous beasts, etc. All of which can be characters.

Spells that allow you to target one of the rules (unit type or character) both work on Mortarch, as it's permission, not a restriction.
Spells that exclude one or the other would exclude the whole model.
"Monster instead of a Character" is excluding character.

It inclusive vs exclusive, and the spell is worded as Exclusive.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

I grasp it just fine. Either you choose to summon a character. Or a Monster. A mortarch fits under both categories.

And this is where you are WRONG.
You choose to summon a character (any unit type).
Or you summon a monsters instead of a character.
If the Mortarch fits both (which it does), you aren't summoning a monster instead of a character if you are still summoning a character.
Character rules stack on the unit type rules. You can have infantry, cavalry, monstrous beasts, etc. All of which can be characters.

Spells that allow you to target one of the rules (unit type or character) both work on Mortarch, as it's permission, not a restriction.
Spells that exclude one or the other would exclude the whole model.
"Monster instead of a Character" is excluding character.

It inclusive vs exclusive, and the spell is worded as Exclusive.

You're still making a false argument. The wording is "You may instead choose to summon a monster, etc" If it were, "Instead of summoning a character, you may summon a monster" then it would be exclusive. As it stands, if something has a unit type of monster, regardless of if it's a character, a unit of 5 dragons or whatever, if the points allow it, you can summon it with the monster stage.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


You're still making a false argument. The wording is "You may instead choose to summon a monster, etc" .

You are correct. I was going off the wording quoted in this thread, just double checked the book.

On a related note, can you summon a unit of chariots?
... summon a unit consisting of a single Monster, Chariot or War Machine worth up to 200 points...
Single is referencing monster only or the whole list?
Compared to the wording of AKAR'ARAN, which summons a single unit of cav, M. cav, or chariots, I'm inclined to rear Kandorak as just a single chariot (Black Coach, Mortis Engine, Corpse Cart).

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


You're still making a false argument. The wording is "You may instead choose to summon a monster, etc" .

You are correct. I was going off the wording quoted in this thread, just double checked the book.

On a related note, can you summon a unit of chariots?
... summon a unit consisting of a single Monster, Chariot or War Machine worth up to 200 points...
Single is referencing monster only or the whole list?
Compared to the wording of AKAR'ARAN, which summons a single unit of cav, M. cav, or chariots, I'm inclined to rear Kandorak as just a single chariot (Black Coach, Mortis Engine, Corpse Cart).

-Matt

I think you're right here. Because the spells make the distinction.

you can only summon units of charriot whit the six spell the cavllery one type

You can't summon a necromancer you can't summon a lord or hero. It says monster another one says infantry not summon a hero/lord/character. So no he can not summon the monarchs.

If you went by that logic all lord choices can be summoned as infantry "who are not mounted" and all heroes for that matter. So if you think it is ok to summon tombking or a vamp lord as a infantry you can summon any monarch aswell.

OgreChubbs wrote:
You can't summon a necromancer you can't summon a lord or hero. It says monster another one says infantry not summon a hero/lord/character. So no he can not summon the monarchs.

If you went by that logic all lord choices can be summoned as infantry "who are not mounted" and all heroes for that matter. So if you think it is ok to summon tombking or a vamp lord as a infantry you can summon any monarch aswell.

We've just had a major debate. Character isn't a unit type. If the spell says summon infantry, and a character is infantry, then you can summon them. If the spell lists characters as an option to summon, then you can summon ANY type of character.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
You can't summon a necromancer you can't summon a lord or hero. It says monster another one says infantry not summon a hero/lord/character. So no he can not summon the monarchs.

If you went by that logic all lord choices can be summoned as infantry "who are not mounted" and all heroes for that matter. So if you think it is ok to summon tombking or a vamp lord as a infantry you can summon any monarch aswell.

We've just had a major debate. Character isn't a unit type. If the spell says summon infantry, and a character is infantry, then you can summon them. If the spell lists characters as an option to summon, then you can summon ANY type of character.

Which is kind of silly. 14+ on Ryze, I summon a necromancy with a forbidden rod. Or, instant BSB (tomb herald, BSB, +15 points of gear). Or, 95 point banshee.

I'm hoping it gets FAQ'd away, but I won't hold my breathe for a FAQ.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
You can't summon a necromancer you can't summon a lord or hero. It says monster another one says infantry not summon a hero/lord/character. So no he can not summon the monarchs.

If you went by that logic all lord choices can be summoned as infantry "who are not mounted" and all heroes for that matter. So if you think it is ok to summon tombking or a vamp lord as a infantry you can summon any monarch aswell.

We've just had a major debate. Character isn't a unit type. If the spell says summon infantry, and a character is infantry, then you can summon them. If the spell lists characters as an option to summon, then you can summon ANY type of character.

Which is kind of silly. 14+ on Ryze, I summon a necromancy with a forbidden rod. Or, instant BSB (tomb herald, BSB, +15 points of gear). Or, 95 point banshee.

I'm hoping it gets FAQ'd away, but I won't hold my breathe for a FAQ.

That's the hope. Because running Nagash and Arkhan is just silly. Or Arkhan and Mannfred.

Or Nagash and Mannfred....*shudders*. The amount of power dice that duo conjures up is as diabolical as it is ridiculous.

Caederes wrote:
Or Nagash and Mannfred....*shudders*. The amount of power dice that duo conjures up is as diabolical as it is ridiculous.

You only really need Mannfred and a vampire on shadow for the power dice battery.