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While it's true that it is, by itself a "harmless phrase" the fact that it's being used in an OATH OF ENLISTMENT... something which is taken quite seriously in the military, makes it problematic for someone who does not believe in the existence of ANY gods. Basically, because they a swearing an oath to someone/thing they don't believe in, the oath is basically useless because they really arent swearing an oath. By having an option to NOT say "so help me god" allows them to attest their oath and it's meaning without breaching that belief
To put it another way, if someone forced you to swear an oath, and it ended with "So help me Mars" or "so help me Zeus" would you hold that oath to have any merit/meaning? Would you feel any need/desire to uphold that oath?
There is flowery language attached to a lot of the military both in the US and elsewhere, adn a services traditions mean a lot to serving personnel..
The USMC attach themselves to the term 'Semper Fidelis', however they dont as a rule speak Latin and there is no Latin requirement, nor are they Romans or have any Rom an heritage. Its just a phrase. However the ideal behind 'Semper Fi' emboldens a lot of the USMC's actions. What is true for the US military is doubly true for the UK, but as we are talking about a US case I will just use the phrase at hand.
'So help me Zeus' is directly equivalent to 'by Jove' which is antiquated is still a common enough used term, especially amongst older generations. Again the cultural connection stands. Sometimes warships are named after pagan deities, even in an age where Christianity was more centralised to the culture than it is today, and the phenomena was not considered improper.
It is only today when people feel an entitlement to demand the removal of cultural traditions that are not personally appealing, and its quite unnecessary. A whole society should not have to change to accommodate one complainer.
Also the oath of service is detailed in the man text, the suffix is just that, a cultural suffix. It need not have meaning, so long as the main principle has meaning. This person cant have been the first atheist to apply for service, what of the others, they just got on with it, and tried not to impose their own beliefs on everyone by demanding a cultural rewrite for the sake of themselves. After all its not like they are being discriminated against, has anyone heard of the USAF discriminating against atheists, equal opportunities apply in full, but that isnt enough for some.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Does the USAF have Re-Enlistment window of 12 to 3 months out? If so why did he wait till the last minute to decide to Re-Enlist.....Playing around with a Bar of Re-Enlistment now
Edit
WTF...page 36 of the Manual states...
5.6.
Active Duty Oath of Enlistment.
All Airmen enlisting or reenlisting must take the
following oath:
―I, (State your full name), do solemnly swear (or affirm)
that I will support and defend the
Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true
faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United
States and the orders of
the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform
Code of Military Justice. So help me God.‖ (
Note
: Airmen may omit the words ―So help me
God‖, if desired for personal reasons)
WTH......
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/10 22:42:30
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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Warning: Stupid Allergy
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RIP Muhammad Ali.
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Orlanth wrote: 'So help me God' is a fairly harmless phrase
Then it won't be a problem to remove it, obliviously.
Then 'obviously' there is no need to tread on a tradition, because its not currently fashionable to some. Tradiotns need not blow like the wind being chopped and changed whenever an individual complains, settle for that and you will have no culture of value
But it's not a tradition. It was only added a short while ago.
Jihadin wrote: Does the USAF have Re-Enlistment window of 12 to 3 months out? If so why did he wait till the last minute to decide to Re-Enlist.....Playing around with a Bar of Re-Enlistment now
Don't think the article was very clear on the timeline.. I would suppose that he "waited" so long because he was trying to re-up for station of choice? I know both times I re-upped for station, it took a while to get back from branch the "OK" to move forward. Also, while I know nothing about the AF personnel office, perhaps with drawdowns and whatnot, re-enlistments take longer because the personnel file is "reviewed" to see if the person is good enough for retention.
Wales: Where the Men are Men and the sheep are Scared.
The people who have no problem with the "so help me god" part of the oath, would you have a problem if it said "so help me Allah" instead. Bet plenty of Christians would.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/10 22:48:59
Jihadin wrote: Does the USAF have Re-Enlistment window of 12 to 3 months out? If so why did he wait till the last minute to decide to Re-Enlist.....Playing around with a Bar of Re-Enlistment now
Edit
WTF...page 36 of the Manual states...
5.6.
Active Duty Oath of Enlistment.
All Airmen enlisting or reenlisting must take the
following oath:
―I, (State your full name), do solemnly swear (or affirm)
that I will support and defend the
Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true
faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United
States and the orders of
the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform
Code of Military Justice. So help me God.‖ (
Note
: Airmen may omit the words ―So help me
God‖, if desired for personal reasons)
WTH......
The manual you posted was from 2011. AF claims that they are following congressional changes from 2013.
carlos13th wrote: The people who have no problem with the "so help me god" part of the oath, would you have a problem if it said "so help me Allah" instead. Bet plenty of Christians would.
Allah is just the Arabic word for God. Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews pray to Allah as well, so there really isn't a problem with a Christian saying "so help me Allah," theologically speaking.
As to the oath, it seems silly that they'd force an Airman to say "so help me God." It hasn't been required in any of the oaths for years, and I don't see a point in the Air Force making it a requirement now.
Reference to Paragraph 5.6. Active Duty Oath of Enlistment MUST READ:
“All Airmen enlisting or reenlisting must
take the following oath: I, (State
your full name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and
defend the Constitution of the United St ates against all enemies, foreign
and domestic; that I will bear true fa ith and allegiance to the same; and
that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the
orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the
Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
30 October 2013
Its current
5.6.
Active Duty Oath of Enlistment.
All Airmen enlisting or reenlisting must take the
following oath:
―I, (State your full name), do solemnly swear (or affirm)
that I will support and defend the
Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true
faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United
States and the orders of
the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform
Code of Military Justice. So help me God.‖ (
Note
: Airmen may omit the words ―So help me
God‖, if desired for personal reasons)
Congress approved it. Now I am thinking its the Oath of Enlistment Document itself
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
carlos13th wrote: The people who have no problem with the "so help me god" part of the oath, would you have a problem if it said "so help me Allah" instead. Bet plenty of Christians would.
Allah is just the Arabic word for God. Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews pray to Allah as well, so there really isn't a problem with a Christian saying "so help me Allah," theologically speaking.
And yet it actually would be a problem. Look at how persnickety people get about the term Football/Soccer and that is only a psuedo-religion.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
carlos13th wrote: The people who have no problem with the "so help me god" part of the oath, would you have a problem if it said "so help me Allah" instead. Bet plenty of Christians would.
Allah is just the Arabic word for God. Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews pray to Allah as well, so there really isn't a problem with a Christian saying "so help me Allah," theologically speaking.
As to the oath, it seems silly that they'd force an Airman to say "so help me God." It hasn't been required in any of the oaths for years, and I don't see a point in the Air Force making it a requirement now.
I agree that Jehovah, God, Yaweh are all different names for the same thing. Yet I would put money on a huge number Christians being in outrage if the airforce oath said so help me Allah.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/10 23:27:48
I know a few Asatru that would be upset if they had to swear to a Christian oath.
I'm thinking if you have never sworn an oath that involves you vowing to sacrifice your life (in more ways then one). Then you might not understand what this Airmen is going through. An oath holds the weight of who you are. I have taken my oath to the people of the US and The Constitution to the utmost seriousness. An have been willing to face death to uphold it. If I had to swear a oath to a simple "turn of phrase" I don't think I would of done it. It wouldn't of meant anything.
carlos13th wrote: The people who have no problem with the "so help me god" part of the oath, would you have a problem if it said "so help me Allah" instead. Bet plenty of Christians would.
God means any deity, and is not specific. The Coptic Christians call the Christian God Allah because they speak Arabic. I would not support a move to 'so help me Jesus' as it would not be fair and is not part of the cultural meme.
Edit Reading adn responding to posts in sequence, already covered by Hordini.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/10 23:37:19
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Orlanth wrote: 'So help me God' is a fairly harmless phrase
Then it won't be a problem to remove it, obliviously.
Then 'obviously' there is no need to tread on a tradition, because its not currently fashionable to some. Tradiotns need not blow like the wind being chopped and changed whenever an individual complains, settle for that and you will have no culture of value. People should learn to be a little less butthurt, especially if they are going to join a fighting profession.
If someone cant hack the last words of an oath of service how are they expected to handle the sandbox where they may be expected to keep the peace or negotiate with people with foreign values pressed in their face.
What about Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Hindu's? Do you think they should have no choice but to swear allegiance to the Christian god?
carlos13th wrote: The people who have no problem with the "so help me god" part of the oath, would you have a problem if it said "so help me Allah" instead. Bet plenty of Christians would.
God means any deity, and is not specific. The Coptic Christians call the Christian God Allah because they speak Arabic. I would not support a move to 'so help me Jesus' as it would not be fair and is not part of the cultural meme.
EDIT:
So you're against a requirement to swear allegiance specifically to the Christian, but you're against people of no religious belief choosing to opt out? Effectively what you're saying is Religious people have Freedom of Religion, but a-religious people do not have the Freedom of no Religion because...its a tradition? (which as others have pointed out is a lie, it was a recent addition).
How the hell do you rationalise hypocrisy like this?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/10 23:42:14
Orlanth wrote: 'So help me God' is a fairly harmless phrase
Then it won't be a problem to remove it, obliviously.
Then 'obviously' there is no need to tread on a tradition, because its not currently fashionable to some. Tradiotns need not blow like the wind being chopped and changed whenever an individual complains, settle for that and you will have no culture of value. People should learn to be a little less butthurt, especially if they are going to join a fighting profession.
If someone cant hack the last words of an oath of service how are they expected to handle the sandbox where they may be expected to keep the peace or negotiate with people with foreign values pressed in their face.
What about Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Hindu's? Do you think they should have no choice but to swear allegiance to the Christian god?
Comprehension fail.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Came so close to say "Bacchus" instead of "God" but my evil Commander whispered under his breathe "I would freaking kill you so hard your sperm will become non-existence".....as he was giving me the Oath of Re-Enlistment. Good days CPT. Gladney.good ole days....
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
What's the point of knowingly making a person swear on something he doesn't believe in? It's basically telling him that it's all pretend and he doesn't have to abide by it.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
Orlanth wrote: 'So help me God' is a fairly harmless phrase
Then it won't be a problem to remove it, obliviously.
Then 'obviously' there is no need to tread on a tradition, because its not currently fashionable to some. Tradiotns need not blow like the wind being chopped and changed whenever an individual complains, settle for that and you will have no culture of value. People should learn to be a little less butthurt, especially if they are going to join a fighting profession.
If someone cant hack the last words of an oath of service how are they expected to handle the sandbox where they may be expected to keep the peace or negotiate with people with foreign values pressed in their face.
What about Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Hindu's? Do you think they should have no choice but to swear allegiance to the Christian god?
Comprehension fail.
See my edit.
People should learn to be a little less butthurt, especially if they are going to join a fighting profession.
Likewise, Christians (yourself included) should be a little less butt hurt when other people choose to opt out from your religious beliefs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/10 23:44:48
Something wrong with story. Airman and lawyers are saying one thing but the Manual states what they want. Seriously thinking it has to do with the Oath of Enlistment document (the shiney one you hang on the wall or something) has on it '"So help me God" embossed on it
or
“That is, saying ‘So help me God’ in any federal oath is optional at the discretion of the person taking the oath (not the person administering the oath).”
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
carlos13th wrote: The people who have no problem with the "so help me god" part of the oath, would you have a problem if it said "so help me Allah" instead. Bet plenty of Christians would.
Allah is just the Arabic word for God. Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews pray to Allah as well, so there really isn't a problem with a Christian saying "so help me Allah," theologically speaking.
As to the oath, it seems silly that they'd force an Airman to say "so help me God." It hasn't been required in any of the oaths for years, and I don't see a point in the Air Force making it a requirement now.
I agree that Jehovah, God, Yaweh are all different names for the same thing. Yet I would put money on a huge number Christians being in outrage if the airforce oath said so help me Allah.
I would put money on it as well, but it's because they are ignorant, not because they are right. Theologically speaking they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
While it's true that it is, by itself a "harmless phrase" the fact that it's being used in an OATH OF ENLISTMENT... something which is taken quite seriously in the military, makes it problematic for someone who does not believe in the existence of ANY gods. Basically, because they a swearing an oath to someone/thing they don't believe in, the oath is basically useless because they really arent swearing an oath. By having an option to NOT say "so help me god" allows them to attest their oath and it's meaning without breaching that belief
To put it another way, if someone forced you to swear an oath, and it ended with "So help me Mars" or "so help me Zeus" would you hold that oath to have any merit/meaning? Would you feel any need/desire to uphold that oath?
It is only today when people feel an entitlement to demand the removal of cultural traditions that are not personally appealing, and its quite unnecessary. A whole society should not have to change to accommodate one complainer.
Also the oath of service is detailed in the man text, the suffix is just that, a cultural suffix. It need not have meaning, so long as the main principle has meaning. This person cant have been the first atheist to apply for service, what of the others, they just got on with it, and tried not to impose their own beliefs on everyone by demanding a cultural rewrite for the sake of themselves. After all its not like they are being discriminated against, has anyone heard of the USAF discriminating against atheists, equal opportunities apply in full, but that isnt enough for some.
That's ridiculous. By not wanting to swear a false oath to something they do not believe in atheists are not enforcing their beliefs on anyone. else. They are having the religious beliefs of another group enforced upon them by a government agency something that is explicitly non constitutional.
carlos13th wrote: The people who have no problem with the "so help me god" part of the oath, would you have a problem if it said "so help me Allah" instead. Bet plenty of Christians would.
Allah is just the Arabic word for God. Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews pray to Allah as well, so there really isn't a problem with a Christian saying "so help me Allah," theologically speaking.
As to the oath, it seems silly that they'd force an Airman to say "so help me God." It hasn't been required in any of the oaths for years, and I don't see a point in the Air Force making it a requirement now.
I agree that Jehovah, God, Yaweh are all different names for the same thing. Yet I would put money on a huge number Christians being in outrage if the airforce oath said so help me Allah.
I would put money on it as well, but it's because they are ignorant, not because they are right. Theologically speaking they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
Yeah I agree they are ignorant but these are the same people who claim that an atheist should just say the words because it doesn't matter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 00:00:04
Orlanth wrote: , has anyone heard of the USAF discriminating against atheists,
Yes, actually, though not in an official capacity. I've known a number of atheists and pagans in the USAF(my wife isn't one, but she is in the AF and one of her best friends is an a-religious Officer) who are all but forced to hide their religious affiliation or lack thereof from their units for fear of unofficial persecution and discrimination. One of the GPS team commanders was actually allowed pretty much preach his literal translation dogmatic and non-evolutionary beliefs ON DUTY even after being complained about numerous times. There's very much a culture of "monotheistic religious belief or GTFO" in many AF units.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/11 00:07:03
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/11 00:23:57
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
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DE 6700
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RIP Muhammad Ali.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 00:18:01
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Before missions in Afghanaland my platoon used to do a prayer. There were many non Christians in the platoon. While my platoon SGT was a fairly devote Christian he never once looked down on those of use that didn't participate in the prayer. After the prayer we would all come together for the platoon motto and other motivational words. Though I did enjoy the time our medic changed God to "Hail Cobra" throughout his whole prayer hahaha.
I am glad that at least in 12B land US Army there is nothing wrong with having what ever faith that you have. Heck religion even gets healthy debates among religious and atheists.
No it doesn't. It specifically means the Christian god. That's why it appears as 'God' and not (insert deity of choice). We all know what a god is and we all know what is being referenced when someone says God.
To put it another way, I could say god is loving, but you'd have no idea who I'm talking about. Or I could say God is loving and you'd *instantly* know I mean the Christian god, because capital 'G' God is ONLY used for that particular god. Like it or not that oath refers to Christianity and I would bet my house if you asked those who voted for it that was their understanding.
I'd argue that given the context inherent to the sentence the capitalization doesn't matter. It is typically quite clear regardless of capitalization when god is a proper noun and when it isn't.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 00:39:57
I agree let's stick with tradition and not change things. So let's go back to the original pledge of allegiance:
I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
and the original oath:
"I _____ have, this day, voluntarily enlisted myself, as a soldier, in the American continental army, for one year, unless sooner discharged: And I do bind myself to conform, in all instances, to such rules and regulations, as are, or shall be, established for the government of the said Army."
Yes it's for the army, but the air force used to be the US army air corps
Hey look, no mention of god, all those entitled christians should not have made a nation change it because they were un american, and 'obviously' there is no need to tread on a tradition, because its not currently fashionable to some. Traditions need not blow like the wind being chopped and changed whenever an individual complains, settle for that and you will have no culture of value. People should learn to be a little less butthurt. They should have left them alone and stuck with tradition.
Orlanth wrote: Then 'obviously' there is no need to tread on a tradition, because its not currently fashionable to some. Tradiotns need not blow like the wind being chopped and changed whenever an individual complains, settle for that and you will have no culture of value.
Traditions: srious bizness vary important! Freedom of conscience: who the hell cares?
Hordini wrote: Allah is just the Arabic word for God. Arabic-speaking Christians and Jews pray to Allah as well, so there really isn't a problem with a Christian saying "so help me Allah," theologically speaking.
What about “So help me Satan”? Would Christians be okay with it? Because sure if some of the Bible is true, I do not feel more respect for God than they have for Satan.
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