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Does rending circumvent being unable to physically wound things? Nothing str5 or lower can actually wound tougness 9, tomy knowledge. I dont think rending gets around that.

It doesn't.


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It only gives ap2. Each round they are also taking demonic instability wounds. Usually.

For fun, I wrote up a BA MSU/AV13 list which actually could cause some major issues for people. What do you think?

HQ
Libby (Hand Flamer)

ELITES
Fragnought (Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod)
Fragnought (Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod)
Fragnought (Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod)

TROOPS
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)

FAST ATTACK
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters)
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters)
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons)
Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons)
Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons)

Again, I wrote this for fun, and it could surely do with some refinement, but at a quick glance it looks like a solid MSU armour saturation list which minimizes the cost issues of most BA lists.

Our preds are wayyy overcosted. Try running a mix of vindicators and stormravens in your heavy support slot.

Im thinking our most competitive list is some mix of mechanized and mephistar. More to come on that later.

 Tear OF The Angel wrote:
At best your demon bomb ties them up all game. Corbulo has 2+ FNP and gives mephiston a 5+ FNP. Both wound on 2+ vs the demons you only wound on 6's which yes rend, but will have the 2+ FNP for that reducing your wounds caused to 1 if everyone survives mephiston attacks.

At best they're killing the entire unit, as whichever character you use to tank their attacks will be dead by the second assault phase. Corbulo is going to fail his FNP save once and take a wound in the first phase, then die in the second. Mephiston can do the tanking, but he'll take 5 wounds on average on the turn the Daemonettes charge alone. That's taking into consideration T9 and FNP on both models (and a 2+ FNP on Corbulo).

Wounding on 2's against Daemons is irreverent because they're T3 anyway (meaning any assault unit worth its salt will be wounding them on 2's, lol) and the two of them are only going to kill three daemonettes per phase on average- meaning that even if they do magically survive the entire game, they'll be stuck trying to kill a T3 8ppm unit for most of the game. If they tarpit each other, it's the Blood Angels player losing out, since the Daemonettes+Herald squad costs 100 points less. lol

 raiden wrote:
It doesn't.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
It only gives ap2. Each round they are also taking demonic instability wounds. Usually.

Uhhhh.

If a model has the Rending special rule, or is attacking with a Melee weapon that has the
Rending special rule, there is a chance that his close combat attacks will strike a critical
blow. For each To Wound roll of a 6, the target automatically suffers a Wound, regardless
of its Toughness. These Wounds are resolved at AP2.

Where does it say anywhere in the rulebook that rending doesn't work on models the unit can't normally wound?

I know they are terribly over-costed but I have had great success with a small unit of Death Company with jump packs. 1 of two things happen, they are ignored and mince through a few units or so much fire is focused on them that I find my other units are relatively untouched.

I'm curious why people run a Captain though instead of a Librarian, Librarians just have more utility within any army set up.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Tear OF The Angel wrote:
At best your demon bomb ties them up all game. Corbulo has 2+ FNP and gives mephiston a 5+ FNP. Both wound on 2+ vs the demons you only wound on 6's which yes rend, but will have the 2+ FNP for that reducing your wounds caused to 1 if everyone survives mephiston attacks.

At best they're killing the entire unit, as whichever character you use to tank their attacks will be dead by the second assault phase. Corbulo is going to fail his FNP save once and take a wound in the first phase, then die in the second. Mephiston can do the tanking, but he'll take 5 wounds on average on the turn the Daemonettes charge alone. That's taking into consideration T9 and FNP on both models (and a 2+ FNP on Corbulo).

Wounding on 2's against Daemons is irreverent because they're T3 anyway (meaning any assault unit worth its salt will be wounding them on 2's, lol) and the two of them are only going to kill three daemonettes per phase on average- meaning that even if they do magically survive the entire game, they'll be stuck trying to kill a T3 8ppm unit for most of the game. If they tarpit each other, it's the Blood Angels player losing out, since the Daemonettes+Herald squad costs 100 points less. lol

 raiden wrote:
It doesn't.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
It only gives ap2. Each round they are also taking demonic instability wounds. Usually.

Uhhhh.

If a model has the Rending special rule, or is attacking with a Melee weapon that has the
Rending special rule, there is a chance that his close combat attacks will strike a critical
blow. For each To Wound roll of a 6, the target automatically suffers a Wound, regardless
of its Toughness. These Wounds are resolved at AP2.

Where does it say anywhere in the rulebook that rending doesn't work on models the unit can't normally wound?

Which means anything that so much as spits on your daemonettes slaughters them in droves and what ever is left of your cute ragtag of transvestite daemons we'll get slaughtered on the charge of the mephistar. The Mephistar on the other hand, can tank anything but D-weapons that rolls 6's and immune to nearly all other guns in the game.

^ lel. Also good luck making those on average -2 LD tests to not lose more models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And thus ever more attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although it does bseem to be auto wounds. Forgot that. Thank you very much sir.

 Zewrath wrote:
Which means anything that so much as spits on your daemonettes slaughters them in droves

What are you talking about, lol. Be explicit, I can't read your mind.

and what ever is left of your cute ragtag of transvestite daemons we'll get slaughtered on the charge of the mephistar.

A) They're not getting the charge off because they're arriving in a drop-pod in my deployment zone- that was the situation as presented on the prior page.

B) Even if they were getting the charge, killing ~three models on the charge is "slaughtered on the charge"?

Do you even know anything about the Daemons codex?

Are you even reading my posts and this discussion?

Are you even doing any math-hammer?

Because your post implies "no" to all the above.

 raiden wrote:
^ lel. Also good luck making those on average -2 LD tests to not lose more models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And thus ever more attacks.

Even if they do fail their instability roll, they're going to lose on average 1 model, bringing them down to 16 models. On average, they'll still have enough attacks left to kill the second half of the Meph-Star next turn.

A drop pod is only 1 of 3 viable deployment options for the mephistar. In a perfect scenario, if your dudes made the charge unmolested, they could theoretically kill mephiston, assuming you dont have your rends tanked by a 2+ fnp on corbulo. But daemonettes are very vulnerable to shooting, and tend to die in droves to something like baal predators or fragiosos.

Or. Bolters.

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I know they are terribly over-costed but I have had great success with a small unit of Death Company with jump packs. 1 of two things happen, they are ignored and mince through a few units or so much fire is focused on them that I find my other units are relatively untouched.

I'm curious why people run a Captain though instead of a Librarian, Librarians just have more utility within any army set up.

I've lost a bit of faith in the Librarian (footslog/JP versions anyway) as it seems you really need to bring more than one or two guaranteed warp charge points. Not to mention he seems expensive compared to other Librarians etc (I know we got a discount for lvl 2 in the FAQ, but je still costs more than other equivalent pykers)

Captains are cheap, I take my with no war gear and just hide him in a StormRaven, with 2 other Storm Ravens about it makes it a tougher call for my opponent to dedicate AA fire at it and if things get hairy you can go into on going reserves. It seems to be a good Slay the Warlord denial tac tic.

D


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I know they are terribly over-costed but I have had great success with a small unit of Death Company with jump packs. 1 of two things happen, they are ignored and mince through a few units or so much fire is focused on them that I find my other units are relatively untouched.

I'm curious why people run a Captain though instead of a Librarian, Librarians just have more utility within any army set up.

I've lost a bit of faith in the Librarian (footslog/JP versions anyway) as it seems you really need to bring more than one or two guaranteed warp charge points. Not to mention he seems expensive compared to other Librarians etc (I know we got a discount for lvl 2 in the FAQ, but je still costs more than other equivalent pykers)

Captains are cheap, I take my with no war gear and just hide him in a StormRaven, with 2 other Storm Ravens about it makes it a tougher call for my opponendt to dedicate AA fire at it and if things get hairy you can go into on going reserves. It seems to be a good Slay the Warlord denial tac tic.

D

Well, I'd add one or two Imperial Knights to a BA army. They could make the army more effective.
BA alone is overpriced and underpowered.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
Which means anything that so much as spits on your daemonettes slaughters them in droves

What are you talking about, lol. Be explicit, I can't read your mind.

and what ever is left of your cute ragtag of transvestite daemons we'll get slaughtered on the charge of the mephistar.

A) They're not getting the charge off because they're arriving in a drop-pod in my deployment zone- that was the situation as presented on the prior page.

B) Even if they were getting the charge, killing ~three models on the charge is "slaughtered on the charge"?

Do you even know anything about the Daemons codex?

Are you even reading my posts and this discussion?

Are you even doing any math-hammer?

Because your post implies "no" to all the above.

 raiden wrote:
^ lel. Also good luck making those on average -2 LD tests to not lose more models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And thus ever more attacks.

Even if they do fail their instability roll, they're going to lose on average 1 model, bringing them down to 16 models. On average, they'll still have enough attacks left to kill the second half of the Meph-Star next turn.

I am reading your posts, your're doing "math hammer" (as in, math hammer stuck in a vacuumed dimension in time and space), in the real board game literally anything with a BS and rocks to throw will kill your Daemonettes in massive numbers, bolters, flamers, fragiosos, you name it. Even if they arrive in drop pod, stop pretending to live in a fantasy world where a mephistar drops in alone, unguarded, unsupported, right in the middle of your entire army, right next to a blob of rending daemons that stands right next to them, ready to charge.
Stop making posts about how you are proving your points with "math hammer" when you're only setting up scenarios that doesn't exist in the game.
If your opponent is dropping a lone, unsupported, Mephistar in the middle of your army then you're aren't winning the game, your opponent is winning it for you.

Ok heres a go:

2k

Mephiston (in bunker)

Corbulo (with mephiston)

Furioso
Frag cannon, melta, magna grapple
Drop pod

Furioso
Frag cannon, melta, magna grapple
Drop pod

5 assault marines
Drop pod

5 assault marines
Razorback with heavy bolter

5 scouts
Snipers

Sicaran battle tank
Lascannon side sponsoons, schism of mars
(Has tank hunter, 4+ against haywire, +1bs against deamon forged units. Main gun is 6 twin linked st7 ap4 shots with rending that ignore jink, av13 all round)

Rapier weapons battery
3 Laser destroyers
(Each gun is an artillery piece with 2 crew, fires a twinlinked st9 ap2 shot with ordnance usr)

Rapier weapons battery
3 Laser destroyers
(As above)

Typhon heavy seige tank
Lascannon side sponsoons, ceremite armour
(LoW, main gun is a st10 ap1 ignores cover 7" blast with primary weapon usr, immune to the extra d6 of melta, has a special rule which adds 1 to the thinderblitz table when tank shocking, av14 all round 6hp)

Bunker with escape hatch
(Allows embarked units to be catapulted forward 18" + d6" on turn 1 so they are basically on the opponents deployment line)

2000pts

So mephy and corbs catapult forward into the opponents face, 2 furiosos deploy from their pods turn one onto the opponents flank, typhon threatens any part of the army which is bunched up with its massive blast, Sicaran can effectively take out a serpent a turn even with their shields up (or anything else for that matter), rapiers target any vehicles, which they will be effective at with their ordnance usr, OS comes in the form of 2 assault squads, a scout squad, a razorback and a drop pod.

Overload on opponents target priorities.

 th3maninblak wrote:
A drop pod is only 1 of 3 viable deployment options for the mephistar. In a perfect scenario, if your dudes made the charge unmolested, they could theoretically kill mephiston, assuming you dont have your rends tanked by a 2+ fnp on corbulo. But daemonettes are very vulnerable to shooting, and tend to die in droves to something like baal predators or fragiosos.

I've already shown you the math for what happens if Corbulo tries to tank all the attacks. He dies, or is challenged out and then dies later after Mephiston dies. As for shooting, see my post below:

 Zewrath wrote:
I am reading your posts, your're doing "math hammer" (as in, math hammer stuck in a vacuumed dimension in time and space), in the real board game literally anything with a BS and rocks to throw will kill your Daemonettes in massive numbers, bolters, flamers, fragiosos, you name it. Even if they arrive in drop pod, stop pretending to live in a fantasy world where a mephistar drops in alone, unguarded, unsupported, right in the middle of your entire army, right next to a blob of rending daemons that stands right next to them, ready to charge.
Stop making posts about how you are proving your points with "math hammer" when you're only setting up scenarios that doesn't exist in the game.
If your opponent is dropping a lone, unsupported, Mephistar in the middle of your army then you're aren't winning the game, your opponent is winning it for you.

No one cares.

Sure, you can try to factor in things like tactical marines, or Baal's, or any other unit. But why aren't I then factoring in 60 invisible seekers, and 2++ Nurgle princes, and the grimoire, and Soul-Grinders, and and and and

Oh right, it's because the more convoluted you make a scenario the more pointless the discussion becomes. There is no such thing as an "average" scenario like you're trying to imply, for one, and when discussing a hypothetical you can always tailor the scenario to fit your point, for two. And you're also implying that I as the opponent won't or can't counter your deployment. If I know that Meph-Star isn't the only unit that's dropping down in a pod, I'm not going to have just a single Daemonette squad laying around to counter it, am I? What's the rest of my army doing while you're hypothetical 50 tactical marine squads, 20 assault marine squads, 30 death-company 10 baal predators and Meph-Star are hammering this one daemonette squad? lulz.

Obviously it bothers you that a 350 point death-star would get stomped by a 250 point unit, but I don't care. It doesn't even have to be Daemonettes. Replace daemonettes with seekers and the Star will die even faster. Replace it with 120 points of termagaunts and the star will be tarpitted for most of the game, reduced to killing 6 'gaunts on the charge and 5 per turn after that. Or a fearless Guardsmen blob. The list goes on. In order for any death-star to be good, it needs to be fast and/or it needs to have great AoE abilities. Meph-Star has neither.


edit- And frankly, you really don't want to get into an army vs army discussion with me. "Which army is collectively stronger, Blood Angels vs. Daemons?" Since you seem to have a hard-on for "real 40K" unlike this "weak-stuff math-hammer!", I've got a dozen grand-tournament results showing Blood Angels performance vs. Daemons performance that'll make you cry. Let's just keep this discussion to a unit vs. unit basis, eh?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
And frankly, you really don't want to get into an army vs army discussion with me. "Which army is collectively stronger, Blood Angels vs. Daemons?" Since you seem to have a hard-on for "real 40K" unlike this "weak-stuff math-hammer!", I've got a dozen grand-tournament results showing Blood Angels performance vs. Daemons performance that'll make you cry. Let's just keep this discussion to a unit vs. unit basis, eh?

I'm just pointing out that no-one, I mean no-one in this thread has made such a claim. This thing started with everyone agreeing that BA aren't competitive and hardly able to contest against Tau/Eldar/Daemons/Necrons etc.

Daemons win Blood Angels? Seriously, since when? Well bravo, clappity clappity good for you.
So if your contribution to this thread is that Daemons beat Blood Angels bloody, you're about an edition too late and basicly not helping a lot.

We are here talking about the best stuff Blood Angels have, and one of them happens to be Mephiston/Corbulo combo.

If you wish to be useful, then tell us what superior tactics would you use to beat that optimal Daemon list of yours with Daemonettes/2++ Nurgle Princes/Soul-Grinders etc.

I'll give it a go ;-).

So against deamonettes, 2+ jinking nurgle princes and soul grinders:

2k

Reclusiarch (with assault squad)
Combi-flamer, powerfist (had 25pts spare)

Contemptor Mortis dread
2 Kheres assault cannons, typhoon missile launcher
Lucius drop pod
(Each kheres is a 6 shot assault cannon, the dread can use skyfire when stationary. The dread does not have to disbark from the lucius and can fire from it as an open topped vehicle, if he disembarks but stays in base contact/behind it, he gets a 3+ cover save, 5+ from behind the lucius +2 from shrouded)

5 man assault squad
Flamer
Razorback with heavy bolter

5 man assault squad
Flamer
Razorback with heavy bolter

5 scouts
Bolters

Baal predator
Tl assault cannon, heavy bolters

Baal predator
Tl assault cannon, heavy bolters

Baal predator
Tl assault cannon, heavy bolters

Sicaran battle tank (forgot to mention before - these are fast)
Schism of mars (see above)

Sicaran battle tank
War of Murder (grants monster hunter and also grants fearless to all units within 6")

Sicaran battle tank

Typhon heavy seige tank

2000pts

So thats 18 tl, st7 rending shots, 6 with +1bs against deamonforged units and tank hunter, and 6 with monster hunter, all ignoring jink saves. (Flying Nurgle princes not as invulnerable now).
24 assault cannon shots, 12 of which are tl, 12 of which have skyfire if desired. 24 heavy bolter shots, 6 of which are tl. 2 krak or frag missiles with skyfire if desired. 3 flamers. 5 bolters and 8 bolt pistols. And to top it off a 7" blast at st10 ap1 which ignores cover (with primary weapon usr).

Tbf I think ot may be even better to drop the contemptor and scouts and instead take a Paladin - but I wanted to keep it pure BA.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Contemptor Mortis dread
2 Kheres assault cannons, typhoon missile launcher


Tbf I think ot may be even better to drop the contemptor and scouts and instead take a Paladin - but I wanted to keep it pure BA.

But Blood Angels cannot take a Mortis-dread.

I was reading a review of IA:2 and the author had claimed that they had contacted FW about this and it had just been an oversight and that BA could indeed take Contemptor mortis dreads. Of course on dakka I know the 'well FW/GW said so' doesn't apply if not explicitly in the rules, so it could instead be swapped (plus pod and scouts and combi-flamer) for a knight paladin. Or better yet, against close combat deamons, and keeping it pure BA, you could swap the same for 16 death company with 2 powerfists, then put the reclusiarch in there. They would wipe whatever they touch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And tbf - they would do far more damage anyway than the Contemp-mort, scouts and a single flamer shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drop 4 of them for the 80pts and load them in a bunker with escape hatch if worried about footslogging.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
A drop pod is only 1 of 3 viable deployment options for the mephistar. In a perfect scenario, if your dudes made the charge unmolested, they could theoretically kill mephiston, assuming you dont have your rends tanked by a 2+ fnp on corbulo. But daemonettes are very vulnerable to shooting, and tend to die in droves to something like baal predators or fragiosos.

I've already shown you the math for what happens if Corbulo tries to tank all the attacks. He dies, or is challenged out and then dies later after Mephiston dies. As for shooting, see my post below:

 Zewrath wrote:
I am reading your posts, your're doing "math hammer" (as in, math hammer stuck in a vacuumed dimension in time and space), in the real board game literally anything with a BS and rocks to throw will kill your Daemonettes in massive numbers, bolters, flamers, fragiosos, you name it. Even if they arrive in drop pod, stop pretending to live in a fantasy world where a mephistar drops in alone, unguarded, unsupported, right in the middle of your entire army, right next to a blob of rending daemons that stands right next to them, ready to charge.
Stop making posts about how you are proving your points with "math hammer" when you're only setting up scenarios that doesn't exist in the game.
If your opponent is dropping a lone, unsupported, Mephistar in the middle of your army then you're aren't winning the game, your opponent is winning it for you.

No one cares.

Sure, you can try to factor in things like tactical marines, or Baal's, or any other unit. But why aren't I then factoring in 60 invisible seekers, and 2++ Nurgle princes, and the grimoire, and Soul-Grinders, and and and and

Oh right, it's because the more convoluted you make a scenario the more pointless the discussion becomes. There is no such thing as an "average" scenario like you're trying to imply, for one, and when discussing a hypothetical you can always tailor the scenario to fit your point, for two. And you're also implying that I as the opponent won't or can't counter your deployment. If I know that Meph-Star isn't the only unit that's dropping down in a pod, I'm not going to have just a single Daemonette squad laying around to counter it, am I? What's the rest of my army doing while you're hypothetical 50 tactical marine squads, 20 assault marine squads, 30 death-company 10 baal predators and Meph-Star are hammering this one daemonette squad? lulz.

Obviously it bothers you that a 350 point death-star would get stomped by a 250 point unit, but I don't care. It doesn't even have to be Daemonettes. Replace daemonettes with seekers and the Star will die even faster. Replace it with 120 points of termagaunts and the star will be tarpitted for most of the game, reduced to killing 6 'gaunts on the charge and 5 per turn after that. Or a fearless Guardsmen blob. The list goes on. In order for any death-star to be good, it needs to be fast and/or it needs to have great AoE abilities. Meph-Star has neither.


edit- And frankly, you really don't want to get into an army vs army discussion with me. "Which army is collectively stronger, Blood Angels vs. Daemons?" Since you seem to have a hard-on for "real 40K" unlike this "weak-stuff math-hammer!", I've got a dozen grand-tournament results showing Blood Angels performance vs. Daemons performance that'll make you cry. Let's just keep this discussion to a unit vs. unit basis, eh?

heh exalt

I'm not a tourney player, but I've played this 1850 pt list lately, to three consecutive wins...

225 - Dante
235 - Assault Squad [10]: Power Axe, Inferno Pistol, 2x Meltagun
105 - Sanquinary Priest: Power Axe, Inferno Pistol, Jump Pack

235 - Tactical Squad [10]: Power Sword, Meltabombs, Flamer, Lascannon, Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

265 - Death Company [8]: Power Sword + Bolt Pistol, Power Fist, Thunder Hammer [Bolters for all non-Sword models], Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

170 - Furioso Dreadnaught: 2x Blood Talons, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

200 - Storm Raven: TL Multi-Melta, TL Assault Cannon, 4x BSM
105 - Scouts [5]: Meltabombs, Heavy Bolter, Bolters

155 - Vindicator: Siege Shield

155 - Vindicator: Sieve Shield

For what it's worth, we don't play the Maelstrom Missions. Also, this is mostly made from a couple of battle forces, with the Vindi's converted from the Rhinos.


Dante's ability to precision DS is invaluable with the three "melta-pistols", allowing the Assault squad and Priest to land exactly such that the IP's are within Melta range. If they wind up in an assault, they can break off on a 5 or less at the end of the opponent's turn. Walk back towards the target, fire the 5 pistols, and then charge with the Jump packs for extra face punching in Furious Charge and HoW hits.

Depending on needs, two pods enter first turn and one goes into reserve. Generic strategy would be to drop the Furioso and the Tacticals first. The Tacticals ideally set up as a Combat Squad, with the Lascannon holding an objective in cover, while the Sarge and Flamer [Don't forget the Frag Grenade!] become a tie-up unit, providing support fire / drawing overwatch for a more valuable unit. I hopefully have the DC land the 2nd turn, where they can dump bolters into a unit before the Sarge / Flamer charge. This then sets up a 3rd turn charge by the DC to finish off whatever the Tacticals are engaging.

The SR provides aerial support, fighting off other flier and providing Anti-tank where needed. A cheap squad of Scouts can be deployed on an uncontested objective, and provide heavy / bolter support, while being reasonably tough with the Cloaks.

Fast Twin-dicators? Hopefully doesn't need much explanation, but they soften a target before the other elements arrive, and they provide mutual support. You drop in Melta-Sternguard to kill one? Looks like you're bunched up to be the target of the 2nd Demolisher Cannon.


It has a good bit of versatility, it has tools to handle hordes and elite armies fairly well. There are units that are tough to face, like Vanilla Honour Guard with their big piles of Power Weapons and 2+ saves, but you can probably avoid them.

As a general strategy, the Vindicators are probably the only thing to start on the board, hide them so that your opponent has to move to you, then surround them with Deep Striking units. Done well, you should have shots that deny LOS blocking terrain, reduce saves from ruins [down to area terrain] and you should be able to double / triple team units to quickly eliminate them. Attempt to isolate enemy units so they can't retaliate in force, and obviously engage shootier units with assault units, and assault units with your shooting. Use your mobility!

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
A drop pod is only 1 of 3 viable deployment options for the mephistar. In a perfect scenario, if your dudes made the charge unmolested, they could theoretically kill mephiston, assuming you dont have your rends tanked by a 2+ fnp on corbulo. But daemonettes are very vulnerable to shooting, and tend to die in droves to something like baal predators or fragiosos.

I've already shown you the math for what happens if Corbulo tries to tank all the attacks. He dies, or is challenged out and then dies later after Mephiston dies. As for shooting, see my post below:

 Zewrath wrote:
I am reading your posts, your're doing "math hammer" (as in, math hammer stuck in a vacuumed dimension in time and space), in the real board game literally anything with a BS and rocks to throw will kill your Daemonettes in massive numbers, bolters, flamers, fragiosos, you name it. Even if they arrive in drop pod, stop pretending to live in a fantasy world where a mephistar drops in alone, unguarded, unsupported, right in the middle of your entire army, right next to a blob of rending daemons that stands right next to them, ready to charge.
Stop making posts about how you are proving your points with "math hammer" when you're only setting up scenarios that doesn't exist in the game.
If your opponent is dropping a lone, unsupported, Mephistar in the middle of your army then you're aren't winning the game, your opponent is winning it for you.

No one cares.

Sure, you can try to factor in things like tactical marines, or Baal's, or any other unit. But why aren't I then factoring in 60 invisible seekers, and 2++ Nurgle princes, and the grimoire, and Soul-Grinders, and and and and

Oh right, it's because the more convoluted you make a scenario the more pointless the discussion becomes. There is no such thing as an "average" scenario like you're trying to imply, for one, and when discussing a hypothetical you can always tailor the scenario to fit your point, for two. And you're also implying that I as the opponent won't or can't counter your deployment. If I know that Meph-Star isn't the only unit that's dropping down in a pod, I'm not going to have just a single Daemonette squad laying around to counter it, am I? What's the rest of my army doing while you're hypothetical 50 tactical marine squads, 20 assault marine squads, 30 death-company 10 baal predators and Meph-Star are hammering this one daemonette squad? lulz.

Obviously it bothers you that a 350 point death-star would get stomped by a 250 point unit, but I don't care. It doesn't even have to be Daemonettes. Replace daemonettes with seekers and the Star will die even faster. Replace it with 120 points of termagaunts and the star will be tarpitted for most of the game, reduced to killing 6 'gaunts on the charge and 5 per turn after that. Or a fearless Guardsmen blob. The list goes on. In order for any death-star to be good, it needs to be fast and/or it needs to have great AoE abilities. Meph-Star has neither.


edit- And frankly, you really don't want to get into an army vs army discussion with me. "Which army is collectively stronger, Blood Angels vs. Daemons?" Since you seem to have a hard-on for "real 40K" unlike this "weak-stuff math-hammer!", I've got a dozen grand-tournament results showing Blood Angels performance vs. Daemons performance that'll make you cry. Let's just keep this discussion to a unit vs. unit basis, eh?

Yeah, no. Your post is quite assumptious, with the added words like "lulz" and "I can show you results that'll make you cry because I'm right!!!11", I'm just gonna' go ahead and ignore.
Also, half of what you're assuming is blatantly false, but what ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 soomemafia wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
And frankly, you really don't want to get into an army vs army discussion with me. "Which army is collectively stronger, Blood Angels vs. Daemons?" Since you seem to have a hard-on for "real 40K" unlike this "weak-stuff math-hammer!", I've got a dozen grand-tournament results showing Blood Angels performance vs. Daemons performance that'll make you cry. Let's just keep this discussion to a unit vs. unit basis, eh?

I'm just pointing out that no-one, I mean no-one in this thread has made such a claim. This thing started with everyone agreeing that BA aren't competitive and hardly able to contest against Tau/Eldar/Daemons/Necrons etc.

Daemons win Blood Angels? Seriously, since when? Well bravo, clappity clappity good for you.
So if your contribution to this thread is that Daemons beat Blood Angels bloody, you're about an edition too late and basicly not helping a lot.

We are here talking about the best stuff Blood Angels have, and one of them happens to be Mephiston/Corbulo combo.

If you wish to be useful, then tell us what superior tactics would you use to beat that optimal Daemon list of yours with Daemonettes/2++ Nurgle Princes/Soul-Grinders etc.

Also, what he said.

Dial it down a few notches please folks.

Thank you.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I'm not a tourney player, but I've played this 1850 pt list lately, to three consecutive wins...

225 - Dante
235 - Assault Squad [10]: Power Axe, Inferno Pistol, 2x Meltagun
105 - Sanquinary Priest: Power Axe, Inferno Pistol, Jump Pack

235 - Tactical Squad [10]: Power Sword, Meltabombs, Flamer, Lascannon, Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

265 - Death Company [8]: Power Sword + Bolt Pistol, Power Fist, Thunder Hammer [Bolters for all non-Sword models], Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

170 - Furioso Dreadnaught: 2x Blood Talons, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

200 - Storm Raven: TL Multi-Melta, TL Assault Cannon, 4x BSM
105 - Scouts [5]: Meltabombs, Heavy Bolter, Bolters

155 - Vindicator: Siege Shield

155 - Vindicator: Sieve Shield

Love it.
I've found that the Frag Cannon does the job better than Talons on a Furioso. For few reasons:
More versatile, allowing you to hurt heavy infantry and vehicles as well, while keeping your DCCW's.
With Heavy Flamer you have very effective anti-infantry and if you take Meltagun it can rip vehicles apart.
Does the job in your turn, it doesn't need to withstand a turn of your enemy shooting to do damage.

I'm also mot sure of the effectiveness of the rest of your Drop Pod wave. Tacticals and Death Company are rarely effective in my games, altough extra Drop Pod with OS is always welcome.

HQ
Libby (Hand Flamer)

ELITES
Fragnought (Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod)
Fragnought (Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod)
Fragnought (Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod)

TROOPS
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)

FAST ATTACK
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters)
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters)
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons)
Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons)
Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons)

This is really similar to what I was going to post. I was the ringer in a local tourney near the end of 6th and ran a Blood angels mech list very similar to this.

It was something like:
3 Baal preds
3 Dakka Preds
2 Land Raiders
3 5 man assault squads (two with no jump packs to go in the raiders)
2 Libby Furioso's w/wings and lance
1 bare bones captain (because he's the cheapest HQ outside the libby and I already have two psykers)
1 scout squad

The Furiosos were used to protect the rear/side armor as needed and the troops were there on the off chance there would be an easily scorable objective but the point was really more to just run your opponent off the table as fast as possible. It worked too! Had some issues against Jet Seer stars of course but even they didn't completely dominate it.

Now that our Libby Dreads have lost wings though I've swapped them out for fragnaughts and I've dumped the jump packs on the third squad. I will also periodically swap Raiders for StormRavens depending on the situation. It works surprisingly well. I've also had a lot of success (I'm defining "success" here as being able to be a real threat in almost every game - not necessarily actually winning every game) with going unbound, and swapping the dreads and a few other things to get a squad of bikers.

As long as you use it aggressively and understand how to protect the rear/side armor (by moving things in formations), this list can really bring the hurt.

Tycho wrote:

HQ
Libby (Hand Flamer)

ELITES
Fragnought (Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod)
Fragnought (Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod)
Fragnought (Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod)

TROOPS
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)

FAST ATTACK
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters)
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters)
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons)
Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons)
Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons)

This kind of army was quite successful in the 5th edition.
Mercer made several battle reports (pic heavy) here at Dakka. Good work.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
For fun, I wrote up a BA MSU/AV13 list which actually could cause some major issues for people. What do you think?

HQ
Libby (Hand Flamer)

ELITES
Fragnought (Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod)
Fragnought (Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod)
Fragnought (Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod)

TROOPS
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)
5x Assault Marines (Plasmagun, Razorback with Heavy Bolter or Heavy Flamer)

FAST ATTACK
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters)
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters)
Baal Predator (Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons)
Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons)
Predator (Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons)

Again, I wrote this for fun, and it could surely do with some refinement, but at a quick glance it looks like a solid MSU armour saturation list which minimizes the cost issues of most BA lists.

I do think this is a seriously cool list, but doesn't it suffer vs heavy mech? Not alot of Anti-tank in there that could deal with lots of AV13/AV14

D

Well, there are 6 lascannons on the predators, and that many rending shots on the baals and fragiosos can do some anti-tank damage...But, yeah, swapping some assault squad plasmas for meltas is what I'd do.

 soomemafia wrote:
So if your contribution to this thread is that Daemons beat Blood Angels bloody, you're about an edition too late and basicly not helping a lot.

If that's all you've come away with from reading my posts and this discussion, that says more about you than me.

We are here talking about the best stuff Blood Angels have, and one of them happens to be Mephiston/Corbulo combo.

This is a tactics forum, not a "never say anything bad about the factions I like" forum. Can you explain how Meph/Corbulo is anything other than overpriced and slow and begging to be tar-pitted or ripped to pieces by rending?

I would rather that Blood Angels players who jump into this thread have their feelings hurt by the stark and honest reality of their army's limitations rather than being deluded into thinking that a particular build or strategy is powerful by people who apparently can't even be bothered to defend their opinions.

I've pointed out the limitations of Meph-Star with objective measurements. You think Meph-Star is powerful, cool. Tell us why, then be prepared to defend your assertion.