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SGTPozy wrote:
Might I add that just because an army has a weakness, you do not always have to ally to fix it (meaning long range firepower, not the lack of ap1/2), especially with the deepstrike formation, as do you see Tau allying with Orks for good melee fighters? Unlikely. Embrace your differences and enjoy the game.

You are COMPLETELY correct, just because a army has a weakness does not mean you cannot minimize it. However I would hope that you are not implying PAGK are up to snuff compared to their rival in the Troop slot. Just a quick run down using math, to get the most cost-effective Psycannon per point on a model that can deepstrike, emphasizing the GK strengths, we come to 125 points for one Psycannon using PAGK and 185 points for one psycannon on Termies.

Now lets factor in Relentless (Also assuming Combat Squads for most effective point return)

125 points for - 8 Stormbolter, 2 Psycannon shots - No assault
185 points for - 8 Stormbolter, 4 Psycannon w/Rending shots - No assault (of course this is the deepstrike turn so no deepstrike for Termies either)

So we are looking at 62.25 points per Psycannon shot compared to 46.25 for Termies. The following turn the Termies can assault AND also fire those four shots, they also have 2 attacks and 2+ armor and are therefore much more likely get to assault and do something there.

Of course there are some who can do this even better (like Paladins @ 39.37 points per shot) but we are talking Troops here.

Anyone else been buffing Purifiers with Endurance?

Because that unit has been getting sh*t done for me!

(Takes an ally, but it works!)

SGTPozy wrote:
Might I add that just because an army has a weakness, you do not always have to ally to fix it (meaning long range firepower, not the lack of ap1/2), especially with the deepstrike formation, as do you see Tau allying with Orks for good melee fighters? Unlikely. Embrace your differences and enjoy the game.

True, but this is a case of the codex having had acces to all these things previously WITHOUT allies, while it now has to ally if it wants these things back. That sucks.. So empty standard sentences like "embrace your differences" are just that... empty.

You can still get those things, btw... you just have to buy more books/dataslates/digital codexes! Great deal, isn't it...

 Elmir wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Might I add that just because an army has a weakness, you do not always have to ally to fix it (meaning long range firepower, not the lack of ap1/2), especially with the deepstrike formation, as do you see Tau allying with Orks for good melee fighters? Unlikely. Embrace your differences and enjoy the game.

True, but this is a case of the codex having had acces to all these things previously WITHOUT allies, while it now has to ally if it wants these things back. That sucks.. So empty standard sentences like "embrace your differences" are just that... empty.

You can still get those things, btw... you just have to buy more books/dataslates/digital codexes! Great deal, isn't it...

To be fair... this can, for good or ill, increasingly be said about GW's intended direction for the game. What is worst is that with no meaningful way to "preview" the contents of codexes legally, its all but impossible to sort out where you can find the allies you need for particular circumstances.

Fair point. But I don't think there's been any codex that was hit as hard as codex GKs by this strategy.

Orks are pretty bad in terms of how many sources you'd need to get all the rules for the faction. But at least GW didn't do the following:

Just imagine how angry IG/AM players would be if GW scratched all stormtrooper units from the original AM list and then tried to force you to buy codex: Militarum tempestus to continue using them. Is it the end of the world? Probably not. Would they be 100% in the right to be pissed about such a clearly money grabbing dick move from GW: absolutely.


How little remains of the codex can be summed up by comparing the amount of entries in the previous dex, to the new one.

HQ: From 14 --> 7 (this includes Draigo)

Elites: 9 --> 3

Troops: 2 --> 2

FA: 2 --> 4 (only because DT can now be taken as FA)

HS: 6 --> 5 (3 of them are LR variants)

Any codex with this few "choices" per slot would be deemed underdeveloped at best. If you start factoring in that there's now choices that are so pisspoor that you wouldn't want to take them in the first place (I'm thinking new dreads, purgation and strike squads), you are left with surprisingly little to work with.

That's not to say that what's left can't be made into a functioning army btw... But don't go being suprised if it's just spam upon layer of spam...

Just to emphasize what Elmir said

HQ's
Of those 7, two are now hilariously bad choices.
-Brotherhood Champion: a joke at that price point
-Castellan Crowe: ... meh he would do good against a CSM army.
-Techmarines: can't be taken alone, not that too many lists would want to take them anyway
-Brother-Captain: Viable in certain lists, a extra psycannon at the very least.
-Stern: Basically a Brother-Captain in name and two special rules and no custom options, you'll most likely take the previous HQ for the psycannon
-Libby: The all-star HQ of the codex, the go to ally for a surprising amount of lists now, dead cheap if necessary, but plop those upgrades on him and he becomes scary.
-Draigo: not a HQ, but a goddamn fine LoW choice none the less.

So of the 5 ACTUAL HQs, 2 are gonna be shelved

Elites: Dreadnought is useless now, Pallies and Purifiers got better. 2 choices again essentially.

FA: Here we get some variety, everything actually has a role here, even those DT if ya want. The largest changes on a army to army basis will be here.

DS: DS stands for Dreadknight slot. If you are really hankerin' for a LR your standard Termie troop can take a DT one.

I'm all these complaints about requiring 3 books now to play the old GK army, and I'm wondering: did anyone actually take GK, Inq, and Assassin units in their lists?

Assassins have been horrible for years, with the only useful one the Vindicar, and he was not that great for the points. Assassins were effectively shelved since 5th.

GK units were not the power house units of Codex: Grey Knights in 5th. If you took GK units, you did not take Inq units. If you took Inq units, you didn't take GK units

Inquisition was the mainstay of most lists that weren't Draigowing. We did not see a resurgence of GK units in Inq lists until after the Inquisition codex made GK Inq units better in 6th. Remember the reign of the Coteaz clones? One was not as good as the other, and the other is what current Inq players are so butthurt over.

Show me the tournament winning GK+Inq+Assassin lists that were so the rage back in the day that lossing Inq and Assassins from the GK codex is a deal breaker. Or is this just a principle thing? It's the principle of the matter that people are unhappy with have to pay more to get fixed units that were ignored back you had them effectively for free? Is it that people are made because Assassins are worth taking now, when they aren't sattled with GK and Inq? Is it that Inq are pretty much garbage now without uber GK to prop them up, so people are made they wasted money on the 5th Ed bandwagon they just fell off of?

To those that got that went full Henchman and now regret it, you have my sympathy. But you did know full well before going in that no one goes full Henchman.

As one if those pure GK players, the Inq-tards out there get no empathy from me, because if you disagree with the product, DON'T BUY IT. Complain with your wallet.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I'm all these complaints about requiring 3 books now to play the old GK army, and I'm wondering: did anyone actually take GK, Inq, and Assassin units in their lists?

Assassins have been horrible for years, with the only useful one the Vindicar, and he was not that great for the points. Assassins were effectively shelved since 5th.

GK units were not the power house units of Codex: Grey Knights in 5th. If you took GK units, you did not take Inq units. If you took Inq units, you didn't take GK units

Inquisition was the mainstay of most lists that weren't Draigowing. We did not see a resurgence of GK units in Inq lists until after the Inquisition codex made GK Inq units better in 6th. Remember the reign of the Coteaz clones? One was not as good as the other, and the other is what current Inq players are so butthurt over.

Show me the tournament winning GK+Inq+Assassin lists that were so the rage back in the day that lossing Inq and Assassins from the GK codex is a deal breaker. Or is this just a principle thing? It's the principle of the matter that people are unhappy with have to pay more to get fixed units that were ignored back you had them effectively for free? Is it that people are made because Assassins are worth taking now, when they aren't sattled with GK and Inq? Is it that Inq are pretty much garbage now without uber GK to prop them up, so people are made they wasted money on the 5th Ed bandwagon they just fell off of?

To those that got that went full Henchman and now regret it, you have my sympathy. But you did know full well before going in that no one goes full Henchman.

As one if those pure GK players, the Inq-tards out there get no empathy from me, because if you disagree with the product, DON'T BUY IT. Complain with your wallet.

SJ

I played Coteaz with a firebase of servitors, Henchmen in Psybacks (or 5 fire-point chimeras) and Purifiers in Rhinos with Dreadknights and a Vindicare. If the points were high enough, I'd throw a unit of DCA and Crusaders in a Storm Raven or two.

It was decently competitive (certainly not tournament quality) but thoroughly enjoyable and also semi-fluffy. Vindicare almost always blew up something big and nasty, or shot a character through the face. I was probably around 50/50 with my list, but I really love the Inquisition lore and the 'mysterious support' of the Grey Knights always seemed like a fun twist.

Part of the problem now is the cost of buying 3 separate books but, for me, it's more the issue of many places limiting allies in tournaments to deter shenanigans. A single CAD and 1 Ally is a pretty normal restriction for my FLGS (or even just a single CAD) and so that kills the list I was running quite happily beforehand. Not necessarily GW's fault, but leaves a somewhat bitter taste. I'm not going to quit the game over it, but it's certainly a disappointing turn of events.

Then again, I guess I'm just a 5th edition bandwagon Inq-tard. Thanks for enlightening me.

DoW

You are confusing the "spam lists" that reigned near the end of 5th/start of 6th with "those units being part of a single collection of a person"

In the short 3 years that the previous GK book was out, these builds were at some point in time, viable in the meta (just in general, not regarded as utter crap lists to run):

Purifier spam with Crowe
Draigowing
Tripple dreadknight (short surge at start of 6th with MC rules changes, other MCs quickly trumped them however)
Henchmen spam
Razorback spam
6 psyfleman lists on skyshield platform

So it's not strange that people would have a collection that has a mix of these untis. And you are correct that most (including myself) only ever used the vindicare assassin. Point is: I, and many other people do own the models. And they now have to pay extra to use the stuff they previously owned. Like I already said: not the end of the world, but something you can be upset about with 100% good reason. Saying you'd only ever field certain combinations of your units at a time does not mean they aren't in your collection. It's no excuse to say that GW did a nice thing to split them up.

And if you are saying GK troops weren't powerhouses in 5th, you have a short memory. Purifier spam and draigowing were at their peak at the end of 5th due to wound allocation shenanigans and the general uselessness of rapid fire weapons, making purifiers the absolute kings of the 12-24" range.

I'm with Jeffersonian. I hear what people say about having less variety in the Codex. It's hard to complain about the lack of variety when you can fill an 1850 list with 4 units and 2 HQs because of the points cost of GK units. The reason there is less variety in kit and units with GK is because they are even more jack-of-all trades than regular Space Marines. Our Anti-tank shooting is also our anti-infantry shooting, in the Psycannon. It does both quite well (as long as it's fired from a Terminator), as you can then assault and finish off what you just maimed with Psycannon shots.

Some armies are shooty, some are assaulty; GK are that hybrid army that really shine when they can shoot and then assault the remnants. Consolidate toward the next target. Rinse, wash, repeat.

People hate on the Brotherhood Champions and Crowe. Remember if you're running a GK mech list, those are your only HQs that can fit in Rhinos and Razorbacks. Also, they are your only source of AP2 cc at Initiative, which can be very nasty, particularly with Hammerhand. Will I use them much? No, but I love me some Terminators and Deep Striking. But there will be others that do, and will probably do just fine with them.

Upset over the Psycannon being Salvo for your Power Armor? Me too. Get over it, adjust your list accordingly. Take Razorbacks with lascannons, take Stormravens, and instead put Incinerators on your Power Armor. Or set up shop at midfield with Psilencers and laugh when that one shot gets through on a Riptide and you Force kill it. Or when the Demon Seekers or Hounds come a-knockin and you wipe them out in one salvo.

It's a new Codex, it doesn't suck, it just makes you re-think your previous tactics. Or don't adjust, lose your games, and complain on the internet. It's up to you.

I think you are completely missing the point here... Look at that number of choices list per slot. That's a nice and objective way of telling you how much variation is possible within a single codex. And it's the lowest of all codexes (bar sisters I believe) in terms of amount of entries. That's the main gripe I have with the codex.

The changes to the psycannon just makes a whole heap of the PAGKs in that list pretty rubbish as well, limiting your "real choices" even more. That leaves you with even less choices. You even said so yourself... " the Psycannon. It does both quite well (as long as it's fired from a Terminator), as you can then assault and finish off what you just maimed with Psycannon shots."

how do you expect any kind of healthy variation in a codex where they only efficient anti tank weapon is only efficient on a terminator platform or on a dreadknight? The biggest "variation" I've been seeing with the GK codex (when you look at the lists on these forums for instane), is the choice of allies to run them with so far... -.-

 Elmir wrote:
I think you are completely missing the point here... Look at that number of choices list per slot. That's a nice and objective way of telling you how much variation is possible within a single codex. And it's the lowest of all codexes (bar sisters I believe) in terms of amount of entries. That's the main gripe I have with the codex.

The changes to the psycannon just makes a whole heap of the PAGKs in that list pretty rubbish as well, limiting your "real choices" even more. That leaves you with even less choices. You even said so yourself... " the Psycannon. It does both quite well (as long as it's fired from a Terminator), as you can then assault and finish off what you just maimed with Psycannon shots."

how do you expect any kind of healthy variation in a codex where they only efficient anti tank weapon is only efficient on a terminator platform or on a dreadknight? The biggest "variation" I've been seeing with the GK codex (when you look at the lists on these forums for instane), is the choice of allies to run them with so far... -.-

My point was that Grey Knights don't have a lot of variation in units because each of their units come equipped for the most part to deal with anything. Yes, the Terminator is the most viable way to carry the psycannon. I also said that if you like to run Power Armor, take some vehicles with guns for your anti-tank. You don't need to have a thousand choices to be dangerous like the Space Marines; our few options we have are deadly, and meant to be able to take on anything.

I don't see Stormravens and Lascannon Razorbacks as inefficient anti-tank. Again, since I run Terminators, I likely won't use the Razorbacks, but definitely could throw in a Stormraven for anti-air/anti-tank to pop some transports so I can get at the gooey insides.

OOOOH, and here I am claiming that GKs don't have a lot of variation in units because... they don't have a lot of option to chose from *bonks head* Silly me...

Note that I never said that you can't build something powerful with this book. You definitely can... The sky isn't falling. But the new book in a lot more "boring" than the previous one in terms of possible builds that you can make. Largely because of how badly they amputated elements from the codex.

If it wasn't for the 7th allies sytem, this book would be as close to true "mono build" as it could get.

So we should all just shut up and paint our razorbacks blue, tear the guns off of our dreads, toss our PAGKs, and buy some more terminators. Great solution! Which is why my entire army is shelved while I enjoy my other armies that aren't nearly mono-build now.

The new DE wracks look tasty.

 Elmir wrote:
OOOOH, and here I am claiming that GKs don't have a lot of variation in units because... they don't have a lot of option to chose from *bonks head* Silly me...

Note that I never said that you can't build something powerful with this book. You definitely can... The sky isn't falling. But the new book in a lot more "boring" than the previous one in terms of possible builds that you can make. Largely because of how badly they amputated elements from the codex.

If it wasn't for the 7th allies sytem, this book would be as close to true "mono build" as it could get.

True, it does have much less flavor. And yes, there are fewer builds running pure GK. My thought is this: if you want flavor, go to Baskin Robbins (do they have those in Germany?). If you want super-killy elite spess muhreens, play GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 agnosto wrote:
So we should all just shut up and paint our razorbacks blue, tear the guns off of our dreads, toss our PAGKs, and buy some more terminators. Great solution! Which is why my entire army is shelved while I enjoy my other armies that aren't nearly mono-build now.

The new DE wracks look tasty.

Not at all, but you will have to actually put some new thought into your list-building again. Not sure why the Razorbacks need to be blue, but if you like your Dreads, find a way to build a list around them. If you like PAGK, build the list to make them successful. Sorry you may have to put some effort into learning how to play the new GK. I for one am enjoying figuring out the most effective ways to play them now.

Put some thought into them? Mate, I've been playing GKs since the daemonhunter book first came out.

The "thought" you have to put into this codex to make a list is laughable. The internal balance is such that almost ever slot has it's pretty clear cut BiS.

HQ --> librarian is king, the rest is niche/performs straight up worse. Just give him a hammer.
Elites --> palladins/purifiers, depends on if you want to ally in drop pods for your purifiers or use escape hatch tricks on your fort.
Troops --> terminators.
Fast attack --> only slot that's actually a bit of a choice between Stormravens or interceptors (both being good).
Heavy support --> anything but a dreadknight is going easymode on your opponent or being daft enough not to get LRs as DT.

I've been toying around with it as well, and this is my conclusion so far... If you find any steller gems that are not being discussed in the grey knight tactica article yet, be my guest to post it there.

My aim for the thread was my opinion on how the dex isn't as week as its made out, not to say how its only got one play style :p. But i agree with the dude that said if you like a unit just use it, its not all about competitiveness

I think you can definitely call a codex weak because its got only 1-2 playstyles, even if those styles are competitive.

 Homeskillet wrote:


Not at all, but you will have to actually put some new thought into your list-building again. Not sure why the Razorbacks need to be blue, but if you like your Dreads, find a way to build a list around them. If you like PAGK, build the list to make them successful. Sorry you may have to put some effort into learning how to play the new GK. I for one am enjoying figuring out the most effective ways to play them now.

But there's literally no point to field autocannon dreadnoughts now and no point to razorbacks or rhinos or the one silver chimera (I have no desire to play inquisition though I used to occasionally field an inquisitor in a chimera). Terminators are point for point, hands-down a better choice in the troop slot than PAGKs and I have 40 of those, none of them kitted with psilencers or incinerators or with teleporters so all that money, time and effort was for naught.

Some people say we can still play what we want and we shouldn't be concerned about being competitive but there's no fun in the game if we don't have a chance to win to begin with.

Meh. Like I said, I've shelved them for now; who knows I might start picking up some terminators and dreadknights in time for another paradigm shift later.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think you can definitely call a codex weak because its got only 1-2 playstyles, even if those styles are competitive.

Considering he went against csm? Which is considered a weaker dex.... Most books have 1 or 2 power builds, all i have read from those complaining is that they want the eldar treatment.

Play an army you like, accept each army has its strengths and its weakness, and have fun! No.matter how much you compain about the book it wont change, mainly due to it really not needing to be.

Any more complaints will just make you look like a child throwing their toys out the pram because they lost their "ward save".... See what i did there

 Elmir wrote:
Put some thought into them? Mate, I've been playing GKs since the daemonhunter book first came out.

The "thought" you have to put into this codex to make a list is laughable. The internal balance is such that almost ever slot has it's pretty clear cut BiS.

HQ --> librarian is king, the rest is niche/performs straight up worse. Just give him a hammer.
Elites --> palladins/purifiers, depends on if you want to ally in drop pods for your purifiers or use escape hatch tricks on your fort.
Troops --> terminators.
Fast attack --> only slot that's actually a bit of a choice between Stormravens or interceptors (both being good).
Heavy support --> anything but a dreadknight is going easymode on your opponent or being daft enough not to get LRs as DT.

I've been toying around with it as well, and this is my conclusion so far... If you find any steller gems that are not being discussed in the grey knight tactica article yet, be my guest to post it there.

HQ - the brother champion is a bit lackluster I agree (I'd have liked to see it be a bit like a tech marine in that you can take 1 for each filled HQ slot too, as IMHO that woulda been more fluffy) but the other HQs aren't that bad. a brother-captain or grandmaster's not too bad a choice. they're the standard "captain beatstick" choice every marine codex has. and I've noted before how it's approperatly priced when you compare it to the other Marine Dex's and factor in the mastery level.

Elites - the dreadnought is a bit pricy now I agree. particularly because one of the big draws for me of a dread has always been how cost effective it is. the GK Dread however is juuust expensive eneugh to be a bit less cost effective, and IMHO the mastery level it gains won't really do too much for it.

Troops: yeah fair eneugh, as I've said multiple times before, the big problem is that strike squads really need a specific niche to stand out.

Fast Attack: agreed it's got two great options. it also allows you to spam rhinos or razorbacks, which while of limited use could be handy if you where combat squadding purifiers and wanted each combat squad to have razorback support.

Heavy Support: yeah the only real option is the dreadknight. GW needs to completly revisit purgation squads. sadly this'd require a new box


all that said the GKs at least have solid options, but right now GKs feel slightly under developed, my HOPE is the long range plan is now that they're completly seperate from inqusition that GW'll in the future develop em more. basicly I'm wondering if the new GK codex, (which I DO like BTW) is almost more of a transitional codex then anything

The GM is a good second HQ choice to a Librarian as he's a combat beatstick who is still a Lvl2 psyker.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The GM is a good second HQ choice to a Librarian as he's a combat beatstick who is still a Lvl2 psyker.

agreed, heck he's even a good HQ choice by himself if you're short on points and and in a situation where having a combat beatstick could be important

I don't think he's great if your short on points given that he's more expensive than the Librarian. And both are very reasonably priced. Overall my HQ choices dropped a combined 100ish points and gained Mastery levels.

135 vs 185 minimum. Realistically 207 because BS5 psycannon is good and you're not leaving him with just a sword. And there's literally no good reason to not give him the Cuirass. So add another 15.

The only no brainer upgrade for the Librarian is the Liber Daemonica. And a stormbolter because everyone's Libby model with have one.

Speaking of the relics, those things are pretty decent for what they do for you. The only real downside to them is each character can only take one! The Cuirass is fantastic on any Bro-Captain or GM, and is even decent on a Libby to help save wounds from Perils. The Soul Glaive will turn your GM into an absolute murder machine. The Liber Daemonica turns Libbys from awesome to out of bounds, and the Stormbolter is cheap enough to even be worthwhile, though it won't knock anyone's socks off. The Shard is situational, and you'll likely only take it if you're list tailoring or going to a tourney where you know Demons will be everywhere.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't think he's great if your short on points given that he's more expensive than the Librarian. And both are very reasonably priced. Overall my HQ choices dropped a combined 100ish points and gained Mastery levels.

135 vs 185 minimum. Realistically 207 because BS5 psycannon is good and you're not leaving him with just a sword. And there's literally no good reason to not give him the Cuirass. So add another 15.

The only no brainer upgrade for the Librarian is the Liber Daemonica. And a stormbolter because everyone's Libby model with have one.

I've seen arguments for the Curaisse, if only to provide some sustainability through Perils wounds.

I don't think IWND and FNP is very useful on anything with less than 3 wounds. So not a whole lot of point giving it to the Librarian.

Although fat lot of good it did me in my last tournament where my GM decided to kill himself in 2 of my 3 games. Game one he failed a Ld10 check and ran off the board, game 2 he peril'd on turn 1, rolled and 1, and again failed a Ld10 test. And game 3 he got stomped by a Knight who rolled a 6.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't think IWND and FNP is very useful on anything with less than 3 wounds. So not a whole lot of point giving it to the Librarian.

Although fat lot of good it did me in my last tournament where my GM decided to kill himself in 2 of my 3 games. Game one he failed a Ld10 check and ran off the board, game 2 he peril'd on turn 1, rolled and 1, and again failed a Ld10 test. And game 3 he got stomped by a Knight who rolled a 6.

In the terms of getting shot at, yeah 2W models don't benefit from it. In the sense that your psychic heavy lifter only has 2 chances at perils, that double 5+ starts to look tasty.

Meh, the probability of periling as a GK is minimal. You need to roll double 6s AND fail a L10 test to have anything super bad happen. And unless a 1 is rolled you have to peril twice to lose your Librarian.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Meh, the probability of periling as a GK is minimal. You need to roll double 6s AND fail a L10 test to have anything super bad happen. And unless a 1 is rolled you have to peril twice to lose your Librarian.

Unless, like me, you like to throw Vortex of Doom out like it's candy at a parade.