Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi peeps! Not surr if this is in.the right place but ahh well.

I just had a 1500 point game against the new gk dex and i honestly dont see where all the Hate towards its is coming from, if anything they got better!

No offence to my opponent but this was the first time he's actually come close to beating me today (game ended in a draw) but the feel of the dex has certainly improved, the ability to ds turn 1 is amazing and the fact dk are silly cheap means i hope more tham 2 arent spamed against me.

What was basically taken

Gk
Librarian- lvl 3 extra spell item
9 terminators with psycannon falcons
Full strike squad 2 flamer things
2 squads of 5 interceptors with flamer guns
2 identical dk with hammer hvy psy and gat psy

Chaos
Nurgle bike lord (p fist l claw)
7 mon bikes 2 plasma p fist
2 squads plague marines (2 plasma in rhino)
Hell cultformation
Herald of Tzeentch lvl3
13 horrors

Its not in too much detail but you get the idea :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also 2 single man mon oblits

total0 wrote:
I just had a 1500 point game against the new gk dex and i honestly dont see where all the Hate towards its is coming from, if anything they got better!

The mayor grudge against the new codex is towards all the things stripped from it making it somewhat one-dimensional. To play all the units from the old codex you now have to buy three of them.

But besides a few outliers like the Purgation Squad and the Dreadnought - which are basically outclassed by other units in the codex or just too expensive - the units are pretty good and the codex is balanced overall, and actually pretty powerful if you bring in some allies.

I really dont see it that way though. Many books have one amazing build but its a game to be enjoyed so its not all about competitiveness :p, I've been know to take raptors or a defilers (which is over priced) but when it comes down to it isn't it better to use units you like instead of units you need to take? I guess thats my opinion.

Another point (not directed at you personally) but im confused about the hate towards the psycannon? Its basicall an assault cannon with +1 strength and can be fired on the move (outhogh half range) :p

Most everyone online is okay with it or loves it as allies.

The Psycannon is the only common gripe with the book.

It should be an assault weapon and it should not be near worthless on PAGK.

total0 wrote:
Another point (not directed at you personally) but im confused about the hate towards the psycannon? Its basicall an assault cannon with +1 strength and can be fired on the move (outhogh half range) :p

Psycannons are great, but they used to be better. The biggest issue being that now you may not shoot and assault (the hideously short 12" range after moving being a close second) because they are salvo.

In a vacuum, Psycannons are amazing and any MEQ player would love to take them. However, if a MEQ player says "Hmm, I want to blow up tanks with a meltagun" or "I want to kill heavy infantry with a plasma gun," he's good to go. GK don't get those options at all and, since the psycannon is their only semi-reliable transport popping infantry weapon (psilencer is S4 and Incinerator is S6), gone are the days of shooting a transport and assaulting the contents with GK infantry squads.

The Salvo rule needs a bit of a tweak imo. If not, it would make sense to me to have psycannons be 36" S7 AP4 Salvo 2/4 Rending. That at least gives an 18" range on the move, which seems a bit more reasonable. Then again, Terminators are now shooting 36" psycannons...

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:

total0 wrote:
Another point (not directed at you personally) but im confused about the hate towards the psycannon? Its basicall an assault cannon with +1 strength and can be fired on the move (outhogh half range) :p

In a vacuum, Psycannons are amazing and any MEQ player would love to take them.

The real problem here is that GKs are barely MEQ.
GKs don't sit and stand their ground with bolter fire...they are always moving as a requirement of their style of play, elitism, and high cost. The psycannon makes for a great MEQ weapon, not for a great assault AT weapon, which we need.

IMO: Psycannon going back to Daemonhunter style would be best.

Mufflercannons used to be Assault 3
Move: 18" range
Stand: 36" range

But they need the S7 and don't need to ignore invulns.

Comparing it to an assault cannon is iffy. SM can't walk around with those on infantry short of terminators, which are relentless in this case as well as a GK one with a psycannon. In that regard, strictly speaking, the psycannon is better. But it being salvo ruins strike squads.

The codex got worse for people who played lots of PAGK. The only PAGK unit still worth taking are Purifiers and all your Psycannon dudes got horribly nerfed.

If you love terminators and psychic powers, the codex did get better.

Overall, I'd say its slightly more competitive if and only if you play mostly Terminators.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The codex got worse for people who played lots of PAGK. The only PAGK unit still worth taking are Purifiers and all your Psycannon dudes got horribly nerfed.

If you love terminators and psychic powers, the codex did get better.

Overall, I'd say its slightly more competitive if and only if you play mostly Terminators.

Interceptors can still incinerator shunt like before. Unless you depended on psyflame.

Interceptors were better with psycannons and psybolts for shunting into the rear of vehicles.

I still dont see the weakness, your opinions honestly make me think you want them to be stronger than anyother army but they dont deserve to be :p

I just think that Strike Marines should actually be a competitive choice with terminators. As it is, they're not. They need to be a couple points cheaper per dude for that to be the case. Especially when the only ranged weapon we have capable of hurting vehicles only gets 2 shots at 18" when you move if you aren't relentless.

Strike Marines suck for their point cost.

Judging by your list, you wouldn't encounter the weaknesses. Strikes, Purifiers, and Interceptors used to be able to carry psycannons with the same effectiveness as terminators and assault after firing the two shot firing mode. The list you posted doesn't attempt to do this.

total0 wrote:
I still dont see the weakness, your opinions honestly make me think you want them to be stronger than anyother army but they dont deserve to be :p

It's probably easier for people who played GK in both codices to see, no worries.

I guess a quick and dirty example would be if CSM bikes lost Relentless in their new Codex. Non-CSM might say "But they're still T5, and can move 12 in! What are you complaining about?!" but you might look at them witheringly and say "Yes, but now I can't shoot my plasma, or bolters (or any non-assault weapons) and still assault. That's part of what makes bikes so good!"

Not a perfect example, but I'm sure you get the gist.

I don't think too many players are saying the new GK codex is terrible, but a couple of the changes (psycannons in particular) did dramatically affect certain tactics and lists.

DoW

You're comparing points with a vanilla marine yet you get extra equipment. Chaos marines are a point cheaper but lack atsknf and everything haha I'd much prefer your loadout :p.

Katana- what makes you say that? I've played against the old book as well as the new now and still stand by my point :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DogOfWar wrote:

total0 wrote:
I still dont see the weakness, your opinions honestly make me think you want them to be stronger than anyother army but they dont deserve to be :p

It's probably easier for people who played GK in both codices to see, no worries.

I guess a quick and dirty example would be if CSM bikes lost Relentless in their new Codex. Non-CSM might say "But they're still T5, and can move 12 in! What are you complaining about?!" but you might look at them witheringly and say "Yes, but now I can't shoot my plasma, or bolters (or any non-assault weapons) and still assault. That's part of what makes bikes so good!"

Not a perfect example, but I'm sure you get the gist.

I don't think too many players are saying the new GK codex is terrible, but a couple of the changes (psycannons in particular) did dramatically affect certain tactics and lists.

DoW

I understand your point with bikes, but if that were to happen they would have to serve a different purpose (melta guns ect) but things need to change to keep the rules fresh, just look at the dk, people seem to spam them now? I think people dont like the little changes :p formations can make them a lot better and its down to the player how well you do, not the army haha

Even with the extra equipment, when you consider no access to reliable ranged anti-tank, they're still too expensive.

Bolter and Bolt Pistol vs a Stormbolter is a wash.

A force weapon on a dude with only 1 attack isn't worth more than 3 points.

Brotherhood of Psykers and automatic HH is basically chapter tactics, but its a pretty good one so we'll say its worth a point(normally CT are free)

PE: Daemons, Deep Strike, and Psykeout grenades are fluffy freebies.

Opportunity cost of not having melta, skyfire, or high strength long range anti-tank and being exactly the same durability as a 14 pt marine is basically why the above things aren't as expensive as they would be normally.

I listed my reasons. Try fielding psycannon strikes or interceptors. It won't work too well. Try putting psycannons on anything not in terminator armor. The codex isn't weak, but a good chunk of it became invalid due to other options simply being stronger. If you enjoy fielding those parts thematically, by all means. But recognize the comparative failings of those units.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Even with the extra equipment, when you consider no access to reliable ranged anti-tank, they're still too expensive.

Bolter and Bolt Pistol vs a Stormbolter is a wash.

A force weapon on a dude with only 1 attack isn't worth more than 3 points.

Brotherhood of Psykers and automatic HH is basically chapter tactics, but its a pretty good one so we'll say its worth a point(normally CT are free)

PE: Daemons, Deep Strike, and Psykeout grenades are fluffy freebies.

Opportunity cost of not having melta, skyfire, or high strength long range anti-tank and being exactly the same durability as a 14 pt marine is basically why the above things aren't as expensive as they would be normally.

This is what i dont like about the hobby sometimes, i share my opinion and all i get in reply is that you should be cheaper for the points yet you're still pretty reasonable for the points. The game is ment to be played for fun, hell csm arnt the most competitive you can see how much people complain about it but i love chaos so stay at it, it makes me a better player as would gk by your points. Your lack of anti air? More than chaos has, we have flakk missles... Yeah because they are good, while you have a storm raven! Much better!

Ap3 with 1 attack is better than ap- with 1 attack, and being able to shoot before charging means you can even soften the target before combat!

Unfortunately you can't compare a strike squad marine to a tactical marine. There are opportunity and army costs to consider. Man to man, the strike is in fact better. But without allies he cannot enter from a drop pod, cannot carry melta or plasma, cannot take a lascannon or some such heavy weapon, won't have access to FNP or other chapter tactics, and cannot be spammed due to a higher base cost. Consider as well your enemies. In CC I most commonly lose marines yo higher initiative enemies, which strikes fall to equally. On the flip side, tactical marines butcher GEQ in CC, which strikes are equally capable of (given a slight edge, but not enough for the cost).

Your opinion isn't being disregarded. But as you do, we are giving ours.

OP, just ignore Grey Templar, all he ever does is complain about GK's points

total0 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Articulate things.

This is what i dont like about the hobby sometimes, i share my opinion and all i get in reply is that you should be cheaper for the points yet you're still pretty reasonable for the points. The game is ment to be played for fun, hell csm arnt the most competitive you can see how much people complain about it but i love chaos so stay at it, it makes me a better player as would gk by your points. Your lack of anti air? More than chaos has, we have flakk missles... Yeah because they are good, while you have a storm raven! Much better!

Well let's remember what you were asking:

You described a game in which your opponent did quite well with the new GK Codex and you wondered why people seem to think the codex was worse.

People pointed out that many units were removed (forcing someone to play with 1-2 allied detachments), lost effective wargear options (psybolt, etc.), or became vastly disparate in points (DKs become auto-take, Dreadnoughts auto-shelf).

You also asked about psycannons and how you didn't understand the negative sentiment towards the salvo change.

People pointed out that your opponent didn't field any PAGK with psycannons so all of his units were relentless and ignored the issues with Salvo. In an army that pays a premium for AP3 force weapons on every PAGK model, assault-based psychic powers, the ability to deep strike closely to enemy lines, decent WS/Str, and a variety of grenades, having the only anti-tank weapon be Salvo (no melta guns, remember) means you've wasted those points and abilities if you take them. There's no synergy and, especially with an elite, low model force, synergy is very important.

I think it's important to remember that opinions are going to be critiqued. People are going to disagree with you, for a variety of reasons, even if you think you're clearly in the right (largely because opinions are usually not facts and, therefore, open to discussion). I don't think it's reasonable to complain about the hobby just because several people offer different opinions. Aren't they just as entitled to their opinion as you?

DoW

I will say, to their defense, while the above comments on Interceptors are true, they are far from invalid and like Purifiers, deserve their spot in the codex and seem costed appropriately.

I have been taking ten, combat-squaded, with Incinerators, and they have consistently done work. Plus, they synergize well with the Nemesis Strike Force, or with a shunt-heavy army (IE, most GK players, as anything less than two Dreadknights is just silly if "winning" is your objective)

So yes, Purgation Squads, do to utter lack of special abilities of note, and Strike Squads are really the only PAGKs that have seen significant hits due to the Psycannon changes...

... well, Purgation Squads were already pretty "bleh" as they just cannot justify taking in a HS slot when there is an objectively more amazing option.

Edit: Oh, and as a small side-note. If your games allow for Forgeworld models, the Doomglaive Pattern Dreadnaught is the sole option that keeps Dreadnoughts viable. He is still costly, and there will be the temptation to just use those points on yet another Dreadknight, but there is something awesome as hell about sending a Dreadnought into assault against an Imperial Knight, and seeing it get up to ten, Str10 attacks off. :-p

Interceptors certainly can still be used. I'm using them as Teleport homers on a stick, but they're not good at what they did before.

Understood, but that is the Psycannon change to blame, not the Interceptors themselves, who i'd argue are about the right cost thanks to "shunt", etc...

Ok, all i wished to say was that my opponent had done better than he'd done with the old dex, and hence has left me thinking and believing that it is stronger. Although i disagree with the points made that they infact got worse, i will accept that that is your opinion

total0 wrote:
Ok, all i wished to say was that my opponent had done better than he'd done with the old dex, and hence has left me thinking and believing that it is stronger. Although i disagree with the points made that they infact got worse, i will accept that that is your opinion

Perfectly reasonable.

Your opponent was quite smart and took advantage of the "good things" in the new codex while avoiding the "bad stuff" people are discussing. I'd be curious to see his previous edition lists because I definitely found GK to be very effective depending on the list and playstyle. I've only played 4 or 5 games with the new Codex and my impression is that, given a tweak or two, it hasn't really become significantly better or worse.

I would have thought you'd be glad you sparked a discussion. Most people's posts die after only a couple of comments.

DoW

I think the biggest problem, to me with strike squads is they're just "terminators with power armor instead of terminator armor" they don't really fill a independant tatical niche on their own. you see this in other codexes where you have two troop choices that ultimatly fill the same role (CSMs and cultists for example.) the best thing to do would not be to fix the psycanon, the best thing to do would be to rework strike squads so that they had a desireable niche.

a good example of this is scouts and tatical marines, they each have their own distinct uses. that sees both used a fair bit.

terminator armour is supposed to be THE armour of the GK's, they have so much of it its supposed to be more commonly used then PA, all the books seem to have them always in it too.

makes sense that its been put forward as superior to PAGK in the troop slot.


personally, since i started GK to feild a terminator army, bought terminators, found out how HORRIBLE they were (end of 5th), shelved them, spammed PSYcannon PAGK"S , then eventually scrapped that and settled on a shunt heavy list.

Now the terminators open up some good options and libbies give us stuff that is just so good.

the change to psycannons makes sense, but I do think the pts increase to regular SS's was silly.

 easysauce wrote:
terminator armour is supposed to be THE armour of the GK's, they have so much of it its supposed to be more commonly used then PA, all the books seem to have them always in it too.

makes sense that its been put forward as superior to PAGK in the troop slot.


personally, since i started GK to feild a terminator army, bought terminators, found out how HORRIBLE they were (end of 5th), shelved them, spammed PSYcannon PAGK"S , then eventually scrapped that and settled on a shunt heavy list.

Now the terminators open up some good options and libbies give us stuff that is just so good.

the change to psycannons makes sense, but I do think the pts increase to regular SS's was silly.

Mind you, I don't believe fluff is a good basis to make a unit like PAGK so bad that everybody avoids them. The only "niche" they have, is to pay as cheap a possible troops tax. Luckily, GW had the common sense to release that special detachment to offset that a bit.

Terminators are now the go-to option. In response to the OP: I do believe that many people who say GKs are worse off, don't necessarily mean in power level. The codex was horrible news for some things (dreadnoughts, purgation squads, strike squads), and really (to insanely) good for others (like dreadknights and terminators). It's not like it's impossible to make a good list, but your choice are really limited if you want to run mono-GK. And that stings...

The codex lost a lot of it's previous "independance" because with some nerfs (like loss of henchmen, psybolt/dreadnought changes and psycannon nerf) you are forced to use other codexes to compensate for some huge gaps in your tools (long range firepower, anti-tank, AP2, cheap bodies)

Might I add that just because an army has a weakness, you do not always have to ally to fix it (meaning long range firepower, not the lack of ap1/2), especially with the deepstrike formation, as do you see Tau allying with Orks for good melee fighters? Unlikely. Embrace your differences and enjoy the game.