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Indeed and agreed on all counts. The Priest si soooooo cheap that its ridiculous not to take him. but there are as you mention other synergistic HQ's also. Coteaz is another that can really hep them out.

Ive run priests or commissars in 40 man conscript blobs (i switch it depending on what their mission is, being a tarpit or an objective camp) against a local space wolf player who for some reason loved to assault them with his wolves. Funny thing is he only has so many attacks per turn and those conscripts arent going anywhere anytime soon. I held them in place and away from my vulnerable units for pretty much the whole game, and on several different occasions (i think he likes the idea of 3 guys on wolves killing 40 men). With the priests I had a chance to even kill one or two of them since its a hefty amount of rerolling hits. If he is going to get into CC with you, you need to either tie him up or shoot him down. I find tying them up to be a simpler option, and it allows the rest of your army to refocus itself on something more important. No matter how you look at it, its a 150 point squad that can easily stop (but maybe not kill) double its points in CC, esp against heavy infantry with low attack counts.

Personally, I love Armored Sentinels. I try to keep them cheap, as if they are stuck in melee they won't be able to use their heavy weapons. The job of the Armoured Sentinel is to survive, as long as the enemy is still engaged in combat with the sentinels, they won't be able to perform a sweeping advance on your guardsmen.

Funny thing is, I actually had a Priest in my list, but for some reason forgot to bring him with me and didn't even think about it since I didn't see him in the box. Would the battle hymns have helped that much against his glorious onslaught? Also, I crunched up a new 1500 point list to try on Saturday, based on everybody's notes, see what you think when I get home and can post it. If you don't mind of course.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New list
Ministorum Priest w/ autogun

CCS
Commander with bolter
Master of Ordnance
Autocannon

Tank commander Pask Punisher w/ heavy bolter
Demolisher Russ

Battle tank Russ separate from squad

Platoon
20 conscripts
Commissar w/ Bolter

Infantry guard 18, 2 w/ plasma
2 sarges w/ bolters and one power axe in blob

PCS
autocannon team
Platoon commander w/ bolter

2 squads of Veterans
1 squad with forward sentries 1 w/ melta
1 squad with heavy flamer
both sarges w/ bolter

Hellhound

Wyvern

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor w/ needle pistol, power armor, psychotroke grenades, venom talon, psyke 1

Aegis defense lines w/ quad-gun.


Think it's a pretty tough team. Have the battle tank and the blob of infantry and CCS to man the wall, the other 2 lemans, hell hound and vets move forward.

Gotta max out the blob axes. Its important. Also: master of ordinance vs. A psyker? Psyker. And i mean at 1500, 3 troops is plenty. Turn them conscripts into Blobadiers. Fer serious. Smash INTO the enemy!

Rad grenades for xeno inquisitor. And a book that grants scout+counter-attack+split fire + stuff like that. Besides, why not get power armor for just 8 pts?

And from my experience, the best build for pasknisher is multimeltas + lazcannon. This way he can counter anything and won't waste his tank-hunter potential with heavy bolters.

 Jancoran wrote:
Gotta max out the blob axes. Its important. Also: master of ordinance vs. A psyker? Psyker. And i mean at 1500, 3 troops is plenty. Turn them conscripts into Blobadiers. Fer serious. Smash INTO the enemy!

Hm... so maybe take out a squad of veterans, put the other on the wall, and just have the conscripts there to keep people from meleeing my tanks to death, put my platoon commander in a chimera to back up the conscripts. I could maybe sneak in the psyker, the reason I didn't include him is because of the Inquisitor and the fact that my Primaris Psyker has failed to do a single meaningful thing since I got him.

the psyker is there as much for defense as offense.

I was actually thinking of swapping out the hell hound with a Bane Wolf, I haven't used that variant yet. Looks like it could really cause some damage, especially against my friends Orks. I need to play around with a few thing so I can maximize the use of my Aegis Wall. And maybe try to put in a Scion, the last few games I won was because I deep struck them and got line breaker. Maybe I could just get my mobile crew to the other side.

Gamerely wrote:
I was actually thinking of swapping out the hell hound with a Bane Wolf, I haven't used that variant yet. Looks like it could really cause some damage, especially against my friends Orks.

The Bane Wolf is garbage. The extremely short range of the main gun means you get so many fewer hits that the Hellhound almost always does more damage, even against MEQs. The only time the Bane Wolf will ever accomplish anything is if you have a stupid opponent that puts expensive MEQ squads into nice perfect template formations within 12" of your anti-MEQ tank. In every other situation you want to have a Hellhound instead, if you're taking anything other than a Vendetta or Vulture in your fast attack slots.

I may have misread, but somewhere in this forum I read that Kurov's aquila's 6" preferred enemy is boosted by chimera (so if in transport, the 6" is measured from the Chimera's hull, not the commander's base). Is that true? If so where is it stated in the rules? Does it work at all from inside a chimera?


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 Peregrine wrote:

Gamerely wrote:
I was actually thinking of swapping out the hell hound with a Bane Wolf, I haven't used that variant yet. Looks like it could really cause some damage, especially against my friends Orks.

The Bane Wolf is garbage. The extremely short range of the main gun means you get so many fewer hits that the Hellhound almost always does more damage, even against MEQs. The only time the Bane Wolf will ever accomplish anything is if you have a stupid opponent that puts expensive MEQ squads into nice perfect template formations within 12" of your anti-MEQ tank. In every other situation you want to have a Hellhound instead, if you're taking anything other than a Vendetta or Vulture in your fast attack slots.

It's Poisoned 2+, AP3, Template, so Ignore cover. How could that be bad? It just feths up any Heavy infantry that's not a terminator even if it's in heavy cover (so they can still get a cover save against your plasma).

It's Poisoned 2+, AP3, Template, so Ignore cover. How could that be bad? It just feths up any Heavy infantry that's not a terminator even if it's in heavy cover (so they can still get a cover save against your plasma).

The problem is not the potential damage, it is the delivery (and the Torrent USR makes a huge difference in that department). Whenever you get to fire the Bane wolf main gun, there is a high probability your tank dies the next turn. If you opponent has any fast CC units you will have a really hard time to get close enough to fire the tank at all.

Vs orks I would take the hellhound for sure. Fighting xenos is where it works best! If you are looking for effective, I think 2 Wyverns will do the same job better for the same points, but personally I prefer to flame things!

zoat wrote:

It's Poisoned 2+, AP3, Template, so Ignore cover. How could that be bad? It just feths up any Heavy infantry that's not a terminator even if it's in heavy cover (so they can still get a cover save against your plasma).

The problem is not the potential damage, it is the delivery (and the Torrent USR makes a huge difference in that department). Whenever you get to fire the Bane wolf main gun, there is a high probability your tank dies the next turn. If you opponent has any fast CC units you will have a really hard time to get close enough to fire the tank at all.

Vs orks I would take the hellhound for sure. Fighting xenos is where it works best! If you are looking for effective, I think 2 Wyverns will do the same job better for the same points, but personally I prefer to flame things!

Banewolf is definitely against MEQs, AP3 makes a big difference, and wound don 2+ is pretty good too. For anything squishier Hellhound or more likely Wyvern is much much better.

I had a game where the enemy had a lot of SM devastators sitting on multiple levels of a building with 4+ cover. Here the ignore cover + AP3 would come really handy. Any way to properly deal with this situation?

Plasma is nice, but they still get the 4+, lasgun spam is hard, because they reach much further.

Is that true if you shoot a specific floor of a building with blast weapons, if it scatters off that floor, it's wasted for good?

Gamerely wrote:

My list was:

Creed with lascannon crew, master of ordnance I don't see the point of using Creed. He's expensive and doesn't add a great deal - especially to an infantry-light army like yours.
Primaris Psyker
31 conscripts with Commissar
Infantry platoon, both with lascannons blobbed with Creed Infantry platoons can't be combined with a CCS. Also, lascannons seem a bit expensive for BS3 models - perhaps try autocannons instead?
Platoon commander with 2 meltas Seems like the meltas would be better on your BS4 CCS. Giving them to BS3 models seems like a bit of a waste. Perhaps try flamers on your PCS instead?
Pask Punisher with Demolisher Leman Russ Seems like an odd combination to me. Also, this is a lot of points. Maybe it would be better to not use Pask at the moment.
Tech priest Is this guy necessary? I mean, if your tanks are dying in melee then they're well beyond the aid of an engineer.
Valkyrie
Tempestus Scions, 2 meltas
Veterans with 3 meltas and demo. Can we has transport please? Also, Demolitions is very expensive - might be better to just use Grenadiers.
Hydra

My comments in Red.

Overall, I think you have too many points invested in too few models.

Gamerely wrote:

He dropped a drop pod because of alpha strike on first turn right in front of my 2 lemans with a venerable dread in it. Couldn't destroy it with my Lemans/platoon command squad. His flyer came in and jacked up my Pask, the venerable dread wiped both of my Lemans out right after that. The only thing I really did was kill 3 termies with the lascannons.... and that was it. 93 shots from the conscripts failed to do a single wound.

A few thoughts:

- I think you need more meltas spread around your army. 3 Lascannons, 2 of which are BS3, are not reliable anti-tank.
- Along the same lines, some mobility might help - like a Chimera for your CCS and Veterans (in which case, I'd probably exchange the lascannon on the CCS for some meltas). In addition to letting them get to their target, chimeras also protect the squads and can be used to block charge lanes.
- Conscripts shouldn't be doing wounds, it's not their job. Conscripts are for bubble-wrapping your infantry and/or tanks so that they can't be charged. All you want is for them to tie up a unit in combat for a few turns to give you some breathing space. A venerable Dreadnaught has, what, 2 attacks? So, even if you have to shoot a man every turn to stop them fleeing, that dreadnaught is still going to be spending 10+ turns killing that conscript squad.

Could I just say to those bashing punisher pask - you pay 70pts for:
A) Making it a HQ rather than heavy choice (thus potentially freeing a HS slot and negating any HQ 'tax').
B) BS4
C) Rending on 20 shots.
D) Tank hunter
E) Tank commander orders.

That is a mega ton better than half another russ!

Poly Ranger wrote:
Could I just say to those bashing punisher pask - you pay 70pts for:
A) Making it a HQ rather than heavy choice (thus potentially freeing a HS slot and negating any HQ 'tax').
B) BS4
C) Rending on 20 shots.
D) Tank hunter
E) Tank commander orders.

That is a mega ton better than half another russ!

While rending gatling is ridiculosuly good, tank commander orders are mostly used for split fire in order to use your two russes for what are they meant to. And you need a LD test on 9 for that.

Zsolt wrote:
Banewolf is definitely against MEQs, AP3 makes a big difference, and wound don 2+ is pretty good too. For anything squishier Hellhound or more likely Wyvern is much much better.

Except the problem is hitting the target. If Hellhound hits 4 MEQs and while a Bane Wolf can only hit 1 because of its much shorter range then the Hellhound will (on average) get more kills. And the Hellhound probably hit 4 MEQs last turn while the Bane Wolf was going flat out to try to get into range.

I had a game where the enemy had a lot of SM devastators sitting on multiple levels of a building with 4+ cover. Here the ignore cover + AP3 would come really handy. Any way to properly deal with this situation?

Get a Colossus. STR 6 AP 3 large blast barrage with no cover allowed. And now that levels are gone you hit every model under the template regardless of level.

The problem with the Bane Wolf in this situation is that it's going to have a hard time getting anything under the template. You have to move up right next to the building, and then you have to slant the template to reach anything on the higher levels. So yeah, any models you can get under the template are dead, but you might only hit 1-2 of them. A Hellhound, on the other hand, can place the template over a lot more models because of the torrent rule, and in a lot of ruins it's going to hit every model in the squad.

Is that true if you shoot a specific floor of a building with blast weapons, if it scatters off that floor, it's wasted for good?

Not anymore. Those rules are completely gone, along with the entire concept of floors of a building.

I second the xeno inquisitor he is a great buff for guard. With rad grenades, -1 T is a big gain for guard Also try using the Liber Heresius it gives you some one shot special rules used with the right combinations it can be deadly in assault. Also if you want to take any ordinance I would suggest getting the servo skulls.

I am looking at cypher at the moment with a blob of 40 guardsmen with meltas, autocannons, meltabombs, pw, priest and a primaris psyker. Infiltrating and scouting in front of something nasty and blowing it off the board. Assault? bring it on overwatch, then assault then I hit and run and shoot a little more ;->

 Peregrine wrote:

I had a game where the enemy had a lot of SM devastators sitting on multiple levels of a building with 4+ cover. Here the ignore cover + AP3 would come really handy. Any way to properly deal with this situation?

Get a Colossus. STR 6 AP 3 large blast barrage with no cover allowed. And now that levels are gone you hit every model under the template regardless of level.

Where are the rules for Colossus? Not in AM codex for sure. Is it Forge world stuff?

Is that true if you shoot a specific floor of a building with blast weapons, if it scatters off that floor, it's wasted for good?

Not anymore. Those rules are completely gone, along with the entire concept of floors of a building.

The guy who said this may have remembered 6th ed rules. Where can I look this up exactly? I'll read again the rule book, but I'd like to get some details (like section/page etc.) for reference on this.

I've been play testing a couple foot guard/blob lists lately and I usually just run a 30-40man blob with 4 autocannons or 4 lascannons. I add a priest and a vox to both units and that's about all I've run. Sit back and fire using orders like fire on my target to ignore cover saves and bring it down for monster or tank hunter really is a plus. Sit behind a defense line to have a 4+ cover. Going to ground is nice as you will hardly lose any men but using the order to get back up is a boost but now you lose the ignores cover and bring it down orders. So a priest to make the boys fearless is honestly a good choice. If your opponent gets close jump over the walls and assault them. Rerolls to hit and possibly to wound on the charge. And since your fearless there's a chance your opponent will require multiple turns to take you out.

Another good use is same idea above but a conscript unit with a priest. Keep them infront so when the enemy gets close you assault. I usually keep them around 20-30 bodies but to be honest the conscripts are usually my mvp in most games because people don't expect 20-30 dudes rerolling to hits and possibly to wounds and being fearless.

So best strategies against units that try to get to your guardsmen that I see are have smaller squads infront like standard infantry or vet squads, once assaulted the enemy should sweep them and then be standing in the open for your entire are to shoot up. Use conscript blobs to tie up or charge out when the enemy is close. Or when in doubt have 40-50 man blobs drown your enemy in bodies. The priest is honestly one of the biggest force multipliers the guard can get. In a game I ran last night I had a 20 man conscript unit, 2 blobs each with 40 dudes, one having 4 autocannons and the other 4 lascannons. Each also having a vox for orders. All 3 blobs had a priest. Basically I lost in the end because of maelstrom objectives and I obviously could leave my deployment zone, but my opponent said it was one of the most annoying games he's played, dealing with so many fearless bodies.


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Zsolt wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

I had a game where the enemy had a lot of SM devastators sitting on multiple levels of a building with 4+ cover. Here the ignore cover + AP3 would come really handy. Any way to properly deal with this situation?

Get a Colossus. STR 6 AP 3 large blast barrage with no cover allowed. And now that levels are gone you hit every model under the template regardless of level.

Where are the rules for Colossus? Not in AM codex for sure. Is it Forge world stuff?

Is that true if you shoot a specific floor of a building with blast weapons, if it scatters off that floor, it's wasted for good?

Not anymore. Those rules are completely gone, along with the entire concept of floors of a building.

The guy who said this may have remembered 6th ed rules. Where can I look this up exactly? I'll read again the rule book, but I'd like to get some details (like section/page etc.) for reference on this.

The rules for templates and blasts say that any models base that's under or touching a template is hit by it. So basically you put the blast or flame template on the top of the floor and you hit everyone on every floor under it.

Zsolt wrote:
Where are the rules for Colossus? Not in AM codex for sure. Is it Forge world stuff?

IA1 second edition. Or you can get the previous IG codex, which used to have the rules until GW removed it because of their idiotic "if we don't sell a plastic kit for it we won't put rules for it in your codex" policy. The old codex rules are exactly the same as the current IA1 rules.

The guy who said this may have remembered 6th ed rules. Where can I look this up exactly? I'll read again the rule book, but I'd like to get some details (like section/page etc.) for reference on this.

It's hard to look up rules that don't exist, but look in the terrain section and find that there are no rules that even mention levels of ruins. 6th edition (like previous editions) used to have a whole section on special rules for ruins where they have levels, blast and template weapons have to target specific levels, etc. But that entire section has been removed, and ruins now function just like any other terrain. So blast and template weapons work normally, you put them over the target and anything under the template is hit. The fact that some models are above others is no longer relevant, just like it wouldn't matter if you had models on the slope of a hill and some were higher than others.

 Peregrine wrote:

Zsolt wrote:
Where are the rules for Colossus? Not in AM codex for sure. Is it Forge world stuff?

IA1 second edition. Or you can get the previous IG codex, which used to have the rules until GW removed it because of their idiotic "if we don't sell a plastic kit for it we won't put rules for it in your codex" policy. The old codex rules are exactly the same as the current IA1 rules.

How are the IA volumes/Codicies/versions (like 6th and 7th) get invalidated? Everything is legal unless it has a newer version released? Does that invalidate it at all?

Also if I want to use the chimera in IA1/2nd ed, because it's 10 point cheaper, and has 5 fire point instead of the 2+lasguns the codex version has, I can do that?

dont use Forge World as the basis or part of your army. a LOT of people dont like it and dont allow it (and for good reason in my opinion). Try to win without it.

 Jancoran wrote:
dont use Forge World as the basis or part of your army. a LOT of people dont like it and dont allow it (and for good reason in my opinion). Try to win without it.

...or you could just ask if they have any problem with it (and why). Your SW opponent even posts here, so he'll have a clear opinion regarding FW.

Regarding Imperial Armour books, the newer books invalidate the old ones (example: a Tetra (Tau scouting vehicle) from IA3E2 is different from IA3E1; the latter isn't legal. Same thing with one of the most repeated unit in FW: Contemptor-chassis Dreadnoughts for SM - they have shown up in 5 or 6 different books!

The newest FW-stuff book is Imperial Armour Apocalypse for 6th (not the GW one), with IA1E2 being a bit older.

 Jancoran wrote:
dont use Forge World as the basis or part of your army. a LOT of people dont like it and dont allow it (and for good reason in my opinion). Try to win without it.

Basing your list around what TFGs want to limit you to using is never a good plan. Build the list you want, and if TFG whines refuses to play then consider yourself lucky that you found out before wasting your time with the actual game.


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Zsolt wrote:
How are the IA volumes/Codicies/versions (like 6th and 7th) get invalidated? Everything is legal unless it has a newer version released? Does that invalidate it at all?

The newest version of a unit or army list replaces all previous versions, just like codex rules.

Also if I want to use the chimera in IA1/2nd ed, because it's 10 point cheaper, and has 5 fire point instead of the 2+lasguns the codex version has, I can do that?

No, just like you can't use the old Chimera from the IG codex.

The exception to this rule is that any Chimeras in FW army lists keep their as-printed rules, just like tactical squads in the BA codex don't change just because C:SM has new rules for their tactical squads. So if you're taking a Chimera in an ABG army you will still use the current rules for the ABG Chimera, which match the old IG codex instead of the new one. And technically you could play an unbound army or exploit the faction rules to put ABG Chimeras in a codex IG army, but there's a reason why unbound and faction exploiting are strongly frowned upon unless you have a very fluffy army.

More reason not to use them. New players should not be asked to pay as much as it costs to keep up with rules and keeping up w yhe Jones's. If you value a flow of new players to the hobby...if you do... then put aside whatever urge might lead youto go w forge world stuff, learn the codex before you and dont flood your meta with more overload. As it is the frenetic pace of releases leaves even vets like me a luttle shell shockrd. So this comes down to one primary goal I value: bring new people to the hobby.

Forgeworld is what brought me to 40k in the first place.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Forgeworld is what brought me to 40k in the first place.

Good. You're not the majority. But good.

 Jancoran wrote:
New players should not be asked to pay as much as it costs to keep up with rules and keeping up w yhe Jones's.

I agree, GW's rules should be much cheaper. But the solution is not to lie to players about what is and isn't legal just to protect them from the evils of GW's pricing structure.

If you value a flow of new players to the hobby...if you do... then put aside whatever urge might lead youto go w forge world stuff, learn the codex before you and dont flood your meta with more overload.

Or here's a better approach: if a new player might be interested in something from FW tell them about it and let them make their own decisions about what is worth paying for. If a new player wants to play all-tank IG then they're better off playing their perfect army from the FW ABG list than paying almost as much money for the codex and playing a list they aren't as happy with. I probably would have been done with 40k after ~1000 points of badly-painted Tau if I hadn't seen the FW IG models and army lists and decided to start a second army. And I had my FW Barracuda, a purchase I don't regret at all, before I even finished assembling my Tau battleforce.

I know this differs from country to country, but when is it legal to make copies of the codicies/whatever books I bought? So let's assume I bought the coex/rule book, and I don't want to bring it with me to games because I want to keep them in as mint condition as possible and I don't want to give them to random people who just can't manage to wash hands after eating cheetos. Is it legal to make copies from the books, or print out some copies found on the internets?

On an unrelated note, I find that tanks in IG need some bubblewrapping, so actually regular IG (tanks + blobs) can be more effective than pure armored companies. Also I find blobs with order and psy support awesome. What are the benefits of FW/armored company IG? Other than fluff shield.