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DeathReaper,
If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models.
- Fortification, one of many Rules with just that title but this one is just above Deployment Zones.

While the Reserve rule is written in the normal format of Models and Units, the above Rule makes it very clear that Fortifications have access to these very Rules. To deny them access to Reserves, because they are not Models and therefore they do not meet the requirement to be a Unit, would be exactly the same as stating they can not Deploy because the Standard Deployment Method only allows Units to be placed as part of Deployment. Of course, we state that Reserves are not a Deployment Rule but that would be some mighty fine hair-splitting worthy of Rule Lawyering at it's finest. Of course, it would raise all sorts of secondary questions, such as why use the word Deploy within the Rule and why it is found smack bang in the Rules discussing Deployment. It also lead to some very broken situations, such as what happens if the Fortification does not fit in the Deployment Zone from a Rule as Written perspective now it can't enter Reserves either.

Rorschach9 wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Again:
If it is not possible to deploy them during the deployment stage, for example if you put them into Reserve where they no longer deploy, they are removed as a casualty!
Why discuss if it is possible for the Unit to Embark on a Fortification in Reserve if there is no Fortification to Embark into because it was Removed as a Casualty?

This is referring to when you do not have enough space to place the model and it is FORCED into reserves. If you are embarking a WWP Archon into a Fortification, you are CHOOSING for it to start in reserves, so this rule does not apply. Otherwise Drop Pods would not work.

Still have no idea if you could even reserve it to begin with though, dont have my BRB handy.

'

BRB : Preparing reserves :

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units,
keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for
any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot
move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to
deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle

As you can see, this is not specifically related to the "not enough room" clause but all of preparing reserves. If you place a fortification in reserve, it is destroyed as it cannot move after deployment.

Yes, this would, in essence, could mean that Drop Pods do not work, but that is obviously not the intent and a topic for a different thread (which has happened before and been closed)

Re: The large bolded portion.

It is not impossible to deploy the fortification, we are making a choice not to by putting it in reserve. This rule only applies when it is IMPOSSIBLE to deploy a unit, not when we choose not to.

If a Unit is put into Reserve, is it still possible to deploy them during the Deployment Step?

JinxDragon wrote:
DeathReaper,
If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models.
- Fortification, one of many Rules with just that title but this one is just above Deployment Zones.

While the Reserve rule is written in the normal format of Models and Units, the above Rule makes it very clear that Fortifications have access to these very Rules. To deny them access to Reserves, because they are not Models and therefore they do not meet the requirement to be a Unit, would be exactly the same as stating they can not Deploy because the Standard Deployment Method only allows Units to be placed as part of Deployment. Of course, we state that Reserves are not a Deployment Rule but that would be some mighty fine hair-splitting worthy of Rule Lawyering at it's finest. Of course, it would raise all sorts of secondary questions, such as why use the word Deploy within the Rule and why it is found smack bang in the Rules discussing Deployment. It also lead to some very broken situations, such as what happens if the Fortification does not fit in the Deployment Zone from a Rule as Written perspective now it can't enter Reserves either.

Putting something into reserves is not deploying it.

So it does not have access to the reserve rules as they are for units only, and you do not deploy into reserve.

"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. " (Preparing for battle chapter, Reserves section, Preparing Reserves sub-section).

they are kept or held back in reserve, not deployed into reserve.

What you quoted only works for deploying the fortifications and does not work for keeping them into reserve.

JinxDragon wrote:
If a Unit is put into Reserve, is it still possible to deploy them during the Deployment Step?

Are you really trying to bend the rules that hard? You something in reserve INSTEAD of deploying. That happens during deployment. Again, it is a choice.

JinxDragon wrote:
If a Unit is put into Reserve, is it still possible to deploy them during the Deployment Step?

No, but the rules do not ask that. They require it to be impossible to deploy the unit; clearly it is not impossible to deploy the unit (without qualification), it is only impossible to deploy the unit if the unit is already in reserves - whcih is a qualification of the term.

DeathReaper,
I do apologize, I have reviewed the formatting of the book and did make a flaw. I had misplaced where the Reserve Rules themselves where located, believing in error that they are a subset of Deployment. In reality, they are a subset of the mission itself which means they are not a Rule buildings have access to. Please, in the future, if you see me make such a mistake do not just state 'that is wrong' but point out why it is wrong. Even someone who tries to research everything before posting can overlook something quite important to the debate at hand. Particularly when it is a formatting error, cause many times we fixate on just a single sentence and what is contained within... where that sentence is located in the book is important as well.

Nosferatu1001 and Extremefreak17,
Further discussion on this would be irrelevant as it has been proven that Buildings do not have access to the Reserve Rule itself.

JinxDragon wrote:
DeathReaper,
I do apologize, I have reviewed the formatting of the book and did make a flaw. I had misplaced where the Reserve Rules themselves where located, believing in error that they are a subset of Deployment.

Reported for breaking Internet forum rules. Never admit you are wrong, never apologize!

Ah, but in polite debate it is always best to not further your error by trying to hide it.

Interesting.
The webway gives the unit the achron is embarked on deep strike.
If you make the argument that they cannot go into deep strike reserve, how do, say, firedragons or a wave serpent go into deep strike reserve?
The achron has join/embark in the unit first, then be moved to deep strike reserve.
Without being able to embark first, the webway portal would only work for models that already have deep strike.

HawaiiMatt,
Reserve rules are Mission specific, they are not part of general Deployment Rules.

Fortifications, being quasi-Model Entities, do not have access to Reserve or Deployment Rules by default as those are Unit specific. They gain access to these Rules for deployment via the sentence stating something along the lines of 'are set up using the same Deployment Rules as the rest of your Army.' Reserves, being a Mission Specific Rule, is not included in that list. No matter what problems might exist for other Units, they are not something Fortifications need to worry about because they can not be placed into Reserves.

Good catch on the problem with granting the Special Rule, instead of stating that they will Arrive by Deep Strike:
Where does it grant us permission to announce the Unit will be Deep Striking after they have already been placed into Reserve?

JinxDragon wrote:
HawaiiMatt,
Good catch on the problem with granting the Special Rule, instead of stating that they will Arrive by Deep Strike:
Where does it grant us permission to announce the Unit will be Deep Striking after they have already been placed into Reserve?

This is the real question. If you just announce that the webway guy is going to join the mandrakes and they are all going to deep strike (giving them the ability to be put into deep strike reserve), then I don't see a reason why that wouldn't also apply to fortifications, the portal itself is granting the rule.
I really see it as a null point on the fortification though. Real Space Raiders don't get a fortification, and I don't see a good reason to give up 6 fast attack slots.

As far as the process of granting the special rule, that is critical to most uses I'm seeing posted of webways (fire dragons, wraithguard, warrior blobs, grotesques).
I'll read through it all again; it's just a bit hazy now as I'm in the grips of a nasty nurgle flu.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Got it.
Doesn't matter if you can or cannot reserve a fortification.
Under combined reserved units you can have characters join squads, and characters/squads embark on a "Transport Vehicle".
A fortification allows you to embark, but isn't a transport vehicle. As soon as it's in reserve, the Archon can't embark, so it cannot benefit from the webway.
Case closed on bunker from the sky.

Now for the pin-point fire dragons:
Under deep strike, you place the unit in reserve, and inform the opponent they are going to deep strike (sometimes called deepstrike reserve).
We have no order of operation for Joining or declaring reserves first.
Under Sequencing, since it's before the game, sequencing says you would roll off.
I don't think you could make a basic vs advanced rules argument for webway, because the webway only covers how it works when you're arriving, not anything leading up to that point.

Let me see if I can break the problem for fortifications:
Fortifications are not Models to begin with, they lack a Unit Type and a Profile, so they do not have access to Unit specific Rules
To gain access to the Deployment Rules, which are Unit specific, Fortifications required a Rule stating they have permission to do so
The Reserve Rule is not a default Deployment Rule, it is a Mission specific Rule giving Units permission to
Fortifications do not have access to Mission Rules, and are not Units by default, so they can not be placed into Reserves
Now Buildings do gain access to a Rule stating that they are Units... which triggers after Deployment has been completed and it is too late to evoke the Reserve Rule....

I underline that one because, thanks to a great decision by the Authors to have something called 'Scenery Models' many people have come to the conclusion that this means that Terrain has access to Model / Unit specific Rules by default. This is clearly not correct as many of the Basic Rules simply break if you try and apply them to 'Scenery Models,' they instantly be in violation of the Rule stating that Models require a profile and Unit Type and therefore illegal to field as the most obvious example of a Rule that clearly can not be applied to 'Scenery Models' by default. Even the 'Scenery Models' which do interact with Model or Unit specific Rules do so by having paragraphs on paragraphs of instructions telling us how to do so.

However, that does raise a good question:
Is it all Buildings that have access to 'aspects of the Vehicle: Transport Rules' by default, or is that something which occurs only after the Building is claimed?

The problem for Deep Strike itself is pretty obvious:
To Join a Unit, the Independent Character and the Unit must both be in Reserve to begin with

JinxDragon wrote:
Ah, but in polite debate it is always best to not further your error by trying to hide it.

While I prefer to learn from errors and thus not be wrong again, I'm not sure what "polite debate" has to do with internet forums.

Ah, must be a Canadian thing, I just noticed your flag.

I'm an international traveler, while Canadian has been the flag beside my name the most of late you will find Australian and US flags in the past, and Holland a few times too.
Personally it is probably age, I predate the internet.... damn impolite youths ruining everything, get off my Virtual Lawn *Shakes fist*

JinxDragon wrote:
I'm an international traveler, while Canadian has been the flag beside my name the most of late you will find Australian and US flags in the past, and Holland a few times too.
Personally it is probably age, I predate the internet.... damn impolite youths ruining everything, get off my Virtual Lawn *Shakes fist*

And pull up your pants. And while your at it, turn down that got-durned rock or roll.

Indeed!
The internet used to be such a quiet place in my time... damn whippersnappers and their You-books and Face-tubes!

(Actually, if I spelled that word correctly I might not be as senile as I thought....)

My kids think I'm old 'cause I know DOS.

I used to know some Basic, fist system I had was a C-64....
I'm going to go pick out a good spot in the crematory now, as I clearly should already be in the ground as far as your kids are concerned.

Stay on-topic, old timers.

Mentioning a movie that you think is pretty recent and then having the response " Oh that was before I was born" is always a favourite of mine.

Oh and kids asking "What was 9/11 like?".


To actually add to the debate, yeah it would be amazing if you could deepstrike a building, but sadly no. I am very disappointed that this is not the case.

To remind people, cause I have memory issues and might have forgotten:
Datasheets for scratch built terrain with permission to be purchased and a version of the deep strike Rule which works easily for them... make it happen!

I have to ask... if you were to throw a building through the Web-way and shoot it out of a Web-way Portal (or Warp Gate or Dolmen Gate or Hyperphasic Relay or wtfever)...

... would it not immediately become a massive pile of battlefield debris/ruins/LOS-blocking pile of broken bricks? I mean, buildings are not, by design, intended to be mobile (granted, the Imperium does try...) and certainly not intended to be shot out of a dimensional portal.

Doesn't it say in the BRB that buildings are treated as vehicles? Sure I read that somewhere.

Assuming you could embark in the building and it would gain Deep Strike as a special rule in reserves then it COULD technically deploy, as it can deep strike onto the battlefield. However, I don't think you can start embarked into a building in reserves in the first place.

Whacked wrote:
Assuming you could embark in the building and it would gain Deep Strike as a special rule in reserves then it COULD technically deploy, as it can deep strike onto the battlefield. However, I don't think you can start embarked into a building in reserves in the first place.

Can you start embarked in a wave serpent, venom or raider?
As soon as you state building = transport vehicle, it all becomes legal.

JinxDragon wrote:
.
Nosferatu1001 and Extremefreak17,
Further discussion on this would be irrelevant as it has been proven that Buildings do not have access to the Reserve Rule itself.

Thanks, I see that now.

There's a good reason it's just not possible, and it has nothing to do with the Reserve Rule:

If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

A fortification is not a unit.