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I agree custom. learning new strategies and tactics however is not balencing the game, it is becoming a better player and learning to adapt.
the players who are complaining about the rules now are the ones who were adept at working with the broken rules of previous editions and are mad that their pet exploits no longer work and are unwilling to learn new ones or unwilling to learn to win without having to rely on those crutches.
I agree with you 100% though.

I am one of these people who generally complains.I started in 5th edition as necrons, i spent lots of money building a good competitive list, monoliths and warriors. Then BOOM 6th edition and new codex. I use all my money to try and change my army to suit the new play style, no problem, then 2 years in 6th edition and ive finally got a decently competitive army and 7th edition comes out and theres a new style of winning games and my army that i just changed for 6th is near useless.

The problem is the game is changing to fast for some players to keep up, i certainly cant and haven't bought a necron model in 6 months. Its just too demanding on some people who have little income. So now i play with an outdated necron list and would play another necron player with a list far superior to mine. and some old moedels such as my destroyers are useless in 7th and haven't seen a battle in months.

It has gotten to the point of GW bringing out new rules, codexs etc that i am now the only 40k player left in my FLGS, the rest couldnt keep up and already sold old parts of their army to buy new ones so we cant even play old editions.

Yargh, I see that your post has been broken up in to sentences and paragraphs now and it is still damned near impossible to read.

I'm going to assume your question is just what your title says... why the hate for 40k? If so, why not play an old edition?

Why the hate for 40k? I get tired of the sloppy rule writing. I get tired of GW's anti consumer actions. I get tired of one edition after another not actually being an improvement but just being a random shuffling of what sucks and what is poorly written. I get tired of the fact the cost is so high that even for the price of just keeping my army updated I could just start entire new game systems.

If so, why not play an old edition? Well I do occasionally. Mostly I don't because it's hard to find opponents. Most my friends who played 2nd, my preferred edition (with some modifications) have quit over the years, so if I want to play 2nd edition I have to teach my opponent how to play it

 EVIL INC wrote:
You may disagree but that does not change the facts or the truthfulness of the post.
As we have seen in every edition, there are two types of players. Type 1. complains and moans and still loses games because they refuse to learn new things or admit that their playstyle does not match the "current edition". they would prefer that GW give them personal priority over every other player in the entire world and customize the game JUST for them.
Type 2. understands that stuff happens and times/editions change. They adapt, buy or convert models to match the "current" powerful ones. They also learn new strategies and tactics that will now work where before they might not have. These players find themselves winning more and more games and becoming better players as a result.
Side note, it might be a good idea to keep the posts at least somewhat polite and un-insulting in case a mod or admin popps in for a surprise visit.

Oh hey, you make incorrect sweeping generalisations in this thread too. Here I was thinking you were just making sweeping generalisations in the WAAC thread. You sure do love your incorrect sweeping generalisations.

There are vastly more than 2 types of players. Even when you only consider the extremes, there's way more than 2 types. It's a bit naive to think there are only 2.

There's also the type that can adapt fine and aren't losing games but simply don't like the changes.

There's also the type that gets sick of pointless changes and wants an actual improvement on previous rules instead of just random changing.

There are people who love change but are just crappy players that lose anyway.

Then there's everyone else (probably 90% of people) who don't actually fit in to one silly little generalisation and are actually some mix of all things.

You know, I kinda admire these last bastions of GW diehards that are left. Insisting nothing is wrong and everything is hunky-dory. We are merely "haterz" that have failed to adapt and are spewing falsehoods to try and bring down fair lady GW. They truly are willing to go down with this ship. That's some brilliant kind of brand loyalty that money cannot buy.

I think you should look at some rather apt lyrics from the song "System..." by Enter Shikari. sums up the state of the union with 40k perfectly to me.

There was a house in a field on the side of the cliff,
And the waves crashing below were just said to be a myth,
So they ignored the warnings from the ships and the docks,
Now the house on the cliff is the wreckage on the rocks,

Nothing can fix the buildings flawed foundations,
but scaffolding and stilts were the laws and legislation,
this house was doomed but they didn't care,
they invested in a system that was beyond repair,

So, maybe you should try actually looking at why we rats that have deserted this ship a long time ago have left it in the first place. This is not mindless hate and babble. I would gladly come back to 40k if GW stopped being a company who, if it were legal, would grab you by the legs and shake you to see what comes out when you enter their stores and tore down 40k and started again. Right now, it's a schizophrenic mess of a skirmish game with company level amounts of models also featuring artillery and flyers! GW, decide what you want 40k to be then make the game as such. If you do so, balance will follow a lot easier.

Kindly keep the name calling out of it and try to keep the posts on a civil level.? Thank you very much, I'm sure the mods will appreciate it.

OP, , when I see that those who are making fun of and ridiculing you for not having perfect grammar have had perfect grammar in each and every single post they have EVER made, I would give them credence. Until then, your doing fine and the mods have already posted in here telling you your ok because your maing an effort.

Yes, as i said most of those who are complaining are those who are unable or unwilling to learn and adapt to new things instead preferring to rely on crutches they learned in older editions.
Of course, some people will gripe and complain under ANY circumstances "what, you just handed me a million bucks? Now I gotta pay taxes on it drive allllllll the way to the bank to deposit it. blah blah blah". lol

As you can see and would see if you went back to forums over the years (and before internet was so widespread in early editions) there will always be those who complain. It goes beyond 40k to other areas as well. My dad used to hafta walk to school in 5 feet of snow. Uphill. BOTH ways. buses and cars nowadays only make people soft. lol My buddy prefers older cars from BEFORE they put computers into them. There will always be complaints and those who make them. You learn to live with it and eventually learn to not start threads like this because it draws them out.

Their complaints are valid from their perspective and thus they fight to justify them. As in our minds we each have different opinions of what we prefer, we will always disagree. take myself, I disagree with many here. The difference is in how your voice it. You can do it as I do in a polite non-combative fashion or in other less polite ways.

Does that mean the current edition is perfect? Absolutely not. The complainers feel whatever earliers edition they like was perfectof course. I feel NONE of them have been perfect and a "perfect game" is impossible to create. Even chess is not perfect. Heck, I'll be the FIRST to "damn the man" when it comes to GW. I have complained about them for decades on different subjects, but in the case of rules, I have always learned to live with it and work within them until they change for the next edition. Wargaming as a hobby is worth sticking around for and should someone want to lleave the sinking ship of wargaming as a hobby until someone somewhere creates the "perfect game", they may be gone for a long time. lol

Yeah because finding games to play now isn't hard enough without finding someone with matching codexes.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Kindly keep the name calling out of it and try to keep the posts on a civil level.? Thank you very much, I'm sure the mods will appreciate it.

OP, , when I see that those who are making fun of and ridiculing you for not having perfect grammar have had perfect grammar in each and every single post they have EVER made, I would give them credence. Until then, your doing fine and the mods have already posted in here telling you your ok because your maing an effort.

Yes, as i said most of those who are complaining are those who are unable or unwilling to learn and adapt to new things instead preferring to rely on crutches they learned in older editions.
Of course, some people will gripe and complain under ANY circumstances "what, you just handed me a million bucks? Now I gotta pay taxes on it drive allllllll the way to the bank to deposit it. blah blah blah". lol

As you can see and would see if you went back to forums over the years (and before internet was so widespread in early editions) there will always be those who complain. It goes beyond 40k to other areas as well. My dad used to hafta walk to school in 5 feet of snow. Uphill. BOTH ways. buses and cars nowadays only make people soft. lol My buddy prefers older cars from BEFORE they put computers into them. There will always be complaints and those who make them. You learn to live with it and eventually learn to not start threads like this because it draws them out.

Their complaints are valid from their perspective and thus they fight to justify them. As in our minds we each have different opinions of what we prefer, we will always disagree. take myself, I disagree with many here. The difference is in how your voice it. You can do it as I do in a polite non-combative fashion or in other less polite ways.

Purple monkey dishwasher.

You're just answering something that has not been asked. Try reading what people are actually writing, rather than responding with what you think they wrote.

Also

 EVIL INC wrote:
Kindly keep the name calling out of it and try to keep the posts on a civil level.? Thank you very much, I'm sure the mods will appreciate it.

OP, , when I see that those who are making fun of and ridiculing you for not having perfect grammar have had perfect grammar in each and every single post they have EVER made, I would give them credence. Until then, your doing fine and the mods have already posted in here telling you your ok because your maing an effort.

Yes, as i said most of those who are complaining are those who are unable or unwilling to learn and adapt to new things instead preferring to rely on crutches they learned in older editions.
Of course, some people will gripe and complain under ANY circumstances "what, you just handed me a million bucks? Now I gotta pay taxes on it drive allllllll the way to the bank to deposit it. blah blah blah". lol

As you can see and would see if you went back to forums over the years (and before internet was so widespread in early editions) there will always be those who complain. It goes beyond 40k to other areas as well. My dad used to hafta walk to school in 5 feet of snow. Uphill. BOTH ways. buses and cars nowadays only make people soft. lol My buddy prefers older cars from BEFORE they put computers into them. There will always be complaints and those who make them. You learn to live with it and eventually learn to not start threads like this because it draws them out.

Their complaints are valid from their perspective and thus they fight to justify them. As in our minds we each have different opinions of what we prefer, we will always disagree. take myself, I disagree with many here. The difference is in how your voice it. You can do it as I do in a polite non-combative fashion or in other less polite ways.

There's the magnitude of the complaints though. No other game system has this much criticism without earning it.
For example. Warmachine. My complaints are that some of the plastics have horrible placement for mold lines. Some of the casters are too pigeon holed and some are much better than others. Some armies struggle against other armies and don't have enough tools to deal with them to make the game 100% fair.
It's not a perfect game. No game is. But in spite of its problems you don't hear Warmachine people with this much toxiicity because PP at least tries to address the complaints and communicates with their playerbase. They are also cheaper so they can get away with more before people start complaining.

Try reading the thread grimtough. It may help you out.

LOL, I'll be the FIRST to tell you my grammar is horrible. However, I make an effort and do "ok". If someone wants to make fun of me for it, I dont care. Have at it because I'm sure I give plenty of grammatical errors for ya.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Instead of sitting there crying about how GW ruined the game...

Is your position honestly that people are too busy complaining instead of playing or learning new ways to play?
1.) This is a wargaming forum. They have access to both the tactics and general threads. They can certainly do both. Just to prove my point I opened another tab to a tactic article that I'll read after I finish this. It took about 45 seconds, cause I was finding the right article I was looking for.
2.) I don't play anywhere near a computer. So if I'm commenting, it's simply because I'm not trying to play a game at the time. It in no way means that when I'm not commenting I'm not playing games.
3.) You're assuming that the people that are complaining aren't winning. This is wrong. I was doing just fine with my army. My other friend quit because his army, GK, was undefeated and games were too lopsided.

I see this a lot. The terrible mistake that complaining some how takes up a large portion of someone's time or prevents them from playing the game. This is just wrong and silly to assume.
To put it in perspective this post took me about 3 minutes to type. 3 minutes out of a day does in no way prevent me from learning or playing a game.

Could it possibly be that I have a negative opinion that isn't based on my win/loss record or my ability to change tactics?

 EVIL INC wrote:
You can do it as I do in a polite non-combative fashion or in other less polite ways.

I'm sorry but I can't let this comment stand when just a few posts ago you told us there were 2 types of people and you put down "type 1" is being people who complain, moan, loses games and is incapable of learning new things.

That is not polite nor non-combative. You might as well have said:

There are 2 types of people. People like me, who are awesome. Then there's people who aren't like me who suck

"Just play better!"
Everyone take a drink.

And there's a difference between a grammar or spelling mistake here and there and being unreadable. The OP's post was the latter.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
You can do it as I do in a polite non-combative fashion or in other less polite ways.

I'm sorry but I can't let this comment stand when just a few posts ago you told us there were 2 types of people and you put down "type 1" is being people who complain, moan, loses games and is incapable of learning new things.

That is not polite nor non-combative. You might as well have said:

There are 2 types of people. People like me, who are awesome. Then there's people who aren't like me who suck

It's the mantra of the last remaining GW diehards.

Eat,
Sleep,
Move goalposts,
Repeat.

How many people worldwide play warmachine and how many play GW games? Likewise, how many years has each game been around and how many editions ect ect? I'm sure you'll find the numbers different. There is a saying "statistics dont lie, people who use them do".
No one has said GW hasnt earned complaints. However, complain about each edition unto itself without comparing them. Each edition is essentially a different game with the same name. This is what causes a lot of problems. I found many faults with each edition of "40k" and I find I like different aspects of each edition to greater or lesser extents. However, to me, what IS, IS and I learn to work with what IS.
As I said, its a matter of different perspectives and views. I am willing to accept others views and still put my own out in a polite way knowing others will disagree. Not everyone is able to do that.
grimtough we are discussing 40k, not football. Although, I'm sure that if you search the internet, you may find some good football sites.My stance has remained the same.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Yes, as i said most of those who are complaining are those who are unable or unwilling to learn and adapt to new things instead preferring to rely on crutches they learned in older editions.

Could you post some evidence for this ridiculous generalization? Because I get the exact opposite impression, the people who care most about winning have just moved on to 7th edition and started exploiting its balance mistakes instead of 6th's balance mistakes, and most of the outrage about the rules comes from people who have legitimate complaints about how bad the game is.

As you can see and would see if you went back to forums over the years (and before internet was so widespread in early editions) there will always be those who complain. It goes beyond 40k to other areas as well. My dad used to hafta walk to school in 5 feet of snow. Uphill. BOTH ways. buses and cars nowadays only make people soft. lol My buddy prefers older cars from BEFORE they put computers into them. There will always be complaints and those who make them. You learn to live with it and eventually learn to not start threads like this because it draws them out.

Yeah, because complaining about 40k's awful rules is just like "up hill, both ways, in the snow". It couldn't possibly be because GW sells a product that is far below the standards of the rest of the industry, and has given up on even pretending to hide the fact that they're milking the cash cow with half-finished rules at obscene prices.

Wargaming as a hobby is worth sticking around for and should someone want to lleave the sinking ship of wargaming as a hobby until someone somewhere creates the "perfect game", they may be gone for a long time. lol

Yes, wargaming as a whole is worth sticking around 40k. Is 40k? Not really, unless you've already made a big investment in it. Fortunately there's a whole hobby full of better games to play, and you can give up on GW's sinking ship without giving up on wargaming in general. In fact, you'll probably look back at your decision to move on from GW and realize that it was the best thing you could do for your enjoyment of the hobby.

Bishop F Gantry wrote:
Yeah because finding games to play now isn't hard enough without finding someone with matching codexes.

That's basically what it comes down to.

 EVIL INC wrote:
How many people worldwide play warmachine and how many play GW games?

Player numbers =/= quality of game.

However, complain about each edition unto itself without comparing them.

Why? "This keeps getting worse" is a perfectly legitimate thing to point out.

Each edition is essentially a different game with the same name.

1) This is an unbelievably stupid way to make a game. Good games have an overall design goal, and each new edition converges on the "perfect" execution of the concept for the game. GW, on the other hand, changes a bunch of random stuff every edition just to make it different. The end result is that the game never really gets better, it just costs you another $100 every few years to keep playing.

2) New editions are not different games. 7th edition is just 6th edition with some more half-finished rules thrown onto the bloated mess. You can't really call 7th edition a "new edition" when 5th edition codices still function just fine with a page or less of FAQs.

 EVIL INC wrote:
However, complain about each edition unto itself without comparing them. Each edition is essentially a different game with the same name.

Except the game hasn't really changed since 1996 1998 with 3rd edition... it's essentially the same game with slightly different details which change the focus, but it's basically the same game, hence why they haven't had to do a full codex rewrite since 3rd.

Personally, at this point I'd RATHER a full rewrite. When you are just updating the rules instead of changing them, it creates a (well warranted) expectation that the game should be improved and refined with each edition, not just a reshuffling.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
However, complain about each edition unto itself without comparing them. Each edition is essentially a different game with the same name.

Except the game hasn't really changed since 1996 with 3rd edition... it's essentially the same game with slightly different details which change the focus, but it's basically the same game, hence why they haven't had to do a full codex rewrite since 3rd.

Personally, at this point I'd RATHER a full rewrite. When you are just updating the rules instead of changing them, it creates a (well warranted) expectation that the game should be improved and refined with each edition, not just a reshuffling.

1998 actually. October 10th 1998 to be precise (40k 3rd was my brother's birthday present). The current core rules will be 16 years old on Friday.

Hmm, why did I think 1996? I actually own the 1998 annual and it still has GorkaMorka in it Corrected.

Skink, just saw your earlier post. Please try to keep the graphic sexual statements to yourself. Children come onto the forums and it is not something all parents want their children exposed to.
Perigrin, each edition of 40k is a "seperate game" the genre and fluff and names of units and such remain the same (usually) but the game itself is a different game. You may not agree with this and I am not able to evidence for it. it is just how I and many others feel.To me, if you have two seperate games (lets say starter boxes) and the rules are different, to me, they are different games.

In terms of complaining about the game, your preaching to the choir. There are MANY aspects I dont agree with. There have been MANY aspects I did not agree with in each edition. I just refuse to accept that there is some magical earlier edition that was perfect.

I do have a lot invested in 40k. Lots of $ and decades of effort. that keeps me around. Id it a sinking ship? Maybe, maybe not. No more so today than it was 10 years ago. When 2nd and 3rd edition came around, the Rogue Trader players called it a sinking ship. When 4,5 edition came around 2,3 edition players called it a sinking ship. just because they are not getting YOUR $ does not make it a sinking ship because you have been replaced with someone else.
Not that I agree with that attitude because I feel GW should be loyal to it's players. To me, this would be making an "edition" and sticking to it. NOT changing it every time they change their underwear. I mean release a game and leave it so that 20 years down the road, you can buy it and it be the same.

If each new edition is a separate game, then that's even worse. They should be working on perfecting the game.
Each edition has very similar rules to one another. Calling them different games is less than ideal.
Infinity just came out with 3rd. Its basically the same game but with some minor changes that hopefully will improve the game. That's what an edition is supposed to do, make improvements, not random changes just to have changes.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Skink, just saw your earlier post. Please try to keep the graphic sexual statements to yourself. Children come onto the forums and it is not something all parents want their children exposed to.

What... the... hell... are... you... talking... about...

????

Is it because I said "sucks"? Coz that's the only thing I can see and OMG if that is it then I'm already laughing at your pathetic attempt to ignore what I'm saying

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
Skink, just saw your earlier post. Please try to keep the graphic sexual statements to yourself. Children come onto the forums and it is not something all parents want their children exposed to.

What... the... hell... are... you... talking... about...

????

Is it because I said "sucks"? Coz that's the only thing I can see and OMG if that is it then I'm already laughing at your pathetic attempt to ignore what I'm saying

I can't wait for the answer to this.

Skink, if you have to ask. There is no point in telling you. lets hope you "find it" before the mods do. As a personal favor to you, I did not report it.

MWHistorian, here is the crux. Different players prefer different editions. some thing it has gone downhill, some think it has gone uphill. This depends on who you talk to.
Personally, i like the way it has gone in some ways (for examplbringing guns back into the game) but I still think they have kept the bad parts of being poorly written and balanced. they still tinker with the fluff and take parts out. That has remained a constant.
I would be tickled to death if they were to release a single edition and stick with it bringing all codexes into line with it and it remaining constant. This way, they would be more loyal to the players and be able to add in so much (within the rules). and flesh out the fluff.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Perigrin, each edition of 40k is a "seperate game" the genre and fluff and names of units and such remain the same (usually) but the game itself is a different game. You may not agree with this and I am not able to evidence for it. it is just how I and many others feel.To me, if you have two seperate games (lets say starter boxes) and the rules are different, to me, they are different games.

The rules aren't significantly different though. Hence why it's still 40k. And it's amusing how you make an assertion and then say "I am not able to [find] evidence for it." You do know that means it's an opinion and not fact, right?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EVIL INC wrote:
MWHistorian, here is the crux. Different players prefer different editions. some thing it has gone downhill, some think it has gone uphill. This depends on who you talk to.
Personally, i like the way it has gone in some ways (for examplbringing guns back into the game) but I still think they have kept the bad parts of being poorly written and balanced. they still tinker with the fluff and take parts out. That has remained a constant.
I would be tickled to death if they were to release a single edition and stick with it bringing all codexes into line with it and it remaining constant. This way, they would be more loyal to the players and be able to add in so much (within the rules). and flesh out the fluff.

... Bringing guns back into the game? Are you still propagating the illusion that 5th edition or 6th edition was won because assault armies dominated?

 EVIL INC wrote:
Skink, if you have to ask. There is no point in telling you. lets hope you "find it" before the mods do. As a personal favor to you, I did not report it.

No you aren't getting off that easy. What did I write in this thread that you have such a perverted mind to have taken it to mean something graphically sexual? Please, report it, PM me if you are so noble, but I've read what I've written in this thread 3 times now and can't see any "graphic sexual statements".

I'm honestly not sure if you're crazy, I said something I have no idea what it means or you are just making some really sad attempt to slander me

Please, the suspense is killing me, I need to know what graphic sexual statement I made. Maybe if EVIL is too delicate someone else reading this thread can point it out to me?

 EVIL INC wrote:
Skink, if you have to ask. There is no point in telling you. lets hope you "find it" before the mods do. As a personal favor to you, I did not report it.

Nope, not going to let libel slide.
Quote the post. Or apologize.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Skink, if you have to ask. There is no point in telling you. lets hope you "find it" before the mods do. As a personal favor to you, I did not report it.

Wat?

 EVIL INC wrote:
Skink, if you have to ask. There is no point in telling you. lets hope you "find it" before the mods do. As a personal favor to you, I did not report it.

MWHistorian, here is the crux. Different players prefer different editions. some thing it has gone downhill, some think it has gone uphill. This depends on who you talk to.
Personally, i like the way it has gone in some ways (for examplbringing guns back into the game) but I still think they have kept the bad parts of being poorly written and balanced. they still tinker with the fluff and take parts out. That has remained a constant.
I would be tickled to death if they were to release a single edition and stick with it bringing all codexes into line with it and it remaining constant. This way, they would be more loyal to the players and be able to add in so much (within the rules). and flesh out the fluff.

I poured over all of Skink's posts in this tread looking for something sexually offensive. I found some that out of context could be humorous in an infantile way and made me smile, but I didn't see anything remotely like what you're talking about.