Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Right dakka im starting to get cross at all the rubbish flying around. About how your "having to stop 40k as its to op and you just cant win and hate gw".

If you have a problem with armies being op look at the other player look at your self. You want to win, they want to win, do you expect them to take a worse army than yours.
No so when they win rather than be rude about them, or go "oh your that tfg" no you decide thier codex is op. And/or that you hate gw. Because they made changes to your army.

If its not that really you arnt that good, and if you do have a problem they took out units you liked or what not. Play the old ed with old codex wow now you have no need to be annoyed.

If you want armys that are balanced so one side dosent have an advantage play the old. But still you forget that for every advantage there is a disadvantage you need to find it. If you want the new armys or codex but you don't want to play the other new codexs you are tfg. If you don't want to be tfg play 5th or 6th ed. There are plenty of people that think like you.
You are on a site full of them. Open your eyes and think clearly instead of negative oh your force op its a game! Have fun while doing it.

If your to competitive for that your a bad loser and the type of person no one wants to play.

Sorry if that was upsetting that's the way I see it.

There were only two sentence in that paragraph.

One of them had 11 words.

Anyways, if reading other peoples' opinions on the game upsets you so much, I might recommend you avoid reading those things.

itsreallyhardtoreadyourpostbutiguessyoumeanwhydontpeoplejustplayoldeditionswellidoiambacktoplayingfourth

Exalted.
Some players are just unable to learn new things or evolve. Sometimes its because they found something to exploit and get mad when it is fixed.
The reason the cry is because they want to stay on top of the pile and have it justified because it is "official".
I have to agree, if you find it so distastefull, play the older edition you prefer and find others of like mind.
To be honest, there have been editions over the years I did not like and aspects/codexes I didnt like but I lived with them and didnt spend all my time complaining. I lived with it and learned new things expanding my skills and abilities to become a better player.

And what if your army has no good ways to play in a new edition?

Do like I and many others have throughout the decades, learn to use it effectively. Simple as that.
If you are unable to do that, you have options. One is to expand into other armies that you are better at playing or accept that it may just be an edition where you are not able to effectively play your army well enough to stay on top of the heap. While you were always winning the tourneys before, accept that this time around, someone else will be getting first prize.
Spending all your time moaning and complaining is not fun. Playing the game with your buddies enjoying yourself is. I know which I would choose.

Yes my typing is well rubbish I know. But it would be nice to see a ratio not of 1:100 bad oh I hate so and so rather I enjoy so and so. because I love the hobby I really do but it annoys me people preaching hate, as I introduced 3 friends to the site to find inspiration and all it did was make them quit. so you can see the basis of my thoughts

e.earnshaw wrote:
Right dakka im starting to get cross at all the rubbish flying around at how your "having to stop 40k as its to op and you just cant win and hate gw" if you have a problem with armies being op look at the player look at your self you want to win they want to win do you expect them to take a c%&p army no so when they win rather than be rude about them or go oh your that tfg no you decide there codex is op or that you hate gw for ruining your army if its not really you arnt that good and you do have a problem they took out units you liked or what not play the old ed with old codex if you want armys that are blanced in your words but what you really want is identical armys so one side dosent have an advantage well you forget that for every advantage there is a disadvantage you need to find it if you want the new armys or codex if you cant do this play 5th or 6th ed there are plenty of people that would think like you you are on a site full of them open your eyes and think clearly instead of negative oh your op its a game have fun while doing it and if your to competitive for that your a bad loser and the type of person no one wants to play. sorry if that was upsetting that's the way I see it

As a former English teacher I am amazed. This is almost one sentence. You break the streak at the end which is unfortunate because you might have broken a world record.
But let's get started. Balanced doesn't equal the same. Not even close. You're misunderstanding their argument. What balance means is that both sides should have a close to equal chance of winning. (assuming player skill is also equal.) There's internal and external balance, army vs army and units within the same codex. 40k is horrible at both external and internal balance. What this means is that some armies are at a huge advantage over other armies.

For example. Eldar vs Blood Angels. Given that both players are equal, the eldar will most likely win most battles. This become frustrating for many people that repeatedly get curb stomped just because they happen to play a certain army. Some players like close games that come down to the line. Some players like to win by skill and not list building. Some players just want a fair fight. With 40k its hard to get those things and players naturally complain.

Internal balance is when some units are auto takes because they're too good to pass up and some units are horrible that taking them would actually be a handi-cap. (See CSM for several examples of horrible units that do not fulfill the role they were meant for.) As a result if you happen to like Thousand Sons or Howling Banshees, you're out of luck because the units just don't do what they were made to do and the codex has other options that do the same job but better.

As for using old codexs, most FLGS I've been to really won't accept that without bargaining or convincing and that's just a hassle and the new codex should be pleasing to most people.

As for the hate on GW, well, the company does very little to foster good will and does many things that foster ill will. Legal bullies, unfair business practices on independent stores, quotes from leaders in GW that show they have little more than contempt for their customers, etc etc.

e.earnshaw wrote:
Yes my typing is well rubbish I know. But it would be nice to see a ratio not of 1:100 bad oh I hate so and so rather I enjoy so and so. because I love the hobby I really do but it annoys me people preaching hate, as I introduced 3 friends to the site to find inspiration and all it did was make them quit. so you can see the basis of my thoughts

First, its not hate.

Second, if people quit the game because they read some stuff on the internet, then I don't know what to tell you.

Third, if there's a lot of negativity going around, perhaps there's a reason why.

Fourth, if your typing is rubbish, go back and put the effort into cleaning it up. No one will take you seriously with a run on paragraph.

Awww... Mad?

If people have to spend time ridiculing you because of poor grammar, it is because they cannot fault your logic.
The failing is in themselves and they have to point a finger somewhere because they dont want to take responsibility for their own behavior, actions or inability to learn new tactics and strategies. they had the easy win before and are now mad that they have to work for it.
pointing it out to them wont change their minds. Just enjoy that players of this caliber are no longer on the top of the heap because next time around, they may be back on top again. When that happens, show that you the better person by not doing the same thing. there have been editions I did not do as well because my playstyle was not in vogue but I learned and lived with it becoming a better player. I also still enjoyed my games and playing because I didnt spend all my time dwelling and crying about it.

If you find it difficult to have fun at the game usually its down to the other person chasing glory. Waac ing isn't nice to the other player and it makes you hate the game and want to quit. I know as after six weeks of losing to a cheating glory hog I quit my gaming club that I set up because he was turning other players to be like him. So I went down to my local gw had a really nice match I lost but I had fun, went back and got my revenge when it came to tournament time and he got us kicked out. He became socially extradited and with out him my club grew to 35 members and we all love it.

 EVIL INC wrote:
If people have to spend time ridiculing you because of poor grammar, it is because they cannot fault your logic.
The failing is in themselves and they have to point a finger somewhere because they dont want to take responsibility for their own behavior, actions or inability to learn new tactics and strategies. they had the easy win before and are now mad that they have to work for it.
pointing it out to them wont change their minds. Just enjoy that players of this caliber are no longer on the top of the heap because next time around, they may be back on top again. When that happens, show that you the better person by not doing the same thing. there have been editions I did not do as well because my playstyle was not in vogue but I learned and lived with it becoming a better player. I also still enjoyed my games and playing because I didnt spend all my time dwelling and crying about it.

I did both. His grammar made his post almost unreadable and thus breaking one of the forum rules. Also, the whole rest of my post was addressing his concerns.

 EVIL INC wrote:

The failing is in themselves and they have to point a finger somewhere because they dont want to take responsibility for their own behavior, actions or inability to learn new tactics and strategies.

I just wanted to point this out. I don't even have to say anything because this quote says so much on it's own.

If it annoys you so much I will edit but I am still laughing.

e.earnshaw wrote:
I am still laughing.

Well, we're both on the same page then.

It's the internet. Might as well be called "complaints anonymous", because that is what it is used for. Go anywhere, people complain, even you are complaining, and I have had it with people complaining about complainers, you can go to a different forum or something if you hate it so much.

Every edition has had some single army that could roll over other armies. This edition just has more new stuff so people complain more.

Please keep in mind, from the rules of this site:

Please remember that posting and reading online is a visual format and as such the spelling, grammar and look of your posts is the only way others understand what you are saying. Therefore, in order to be polite, all users are expected to make an effort to use proper spelling, grammar and punctuation and should refrain from using internet shorthand or other distracting methods of writing, such as writing a post completely bolded, with capital letters, in a strange color, etc.

So yes, we do require that effort be made to construct posts so as to be as readable as possible - especially as Dakka Dakka is very much an international forum and English is not everyone's first language.

Thanks!

e.earnshaw wrote:
If it annoys you so much I will edit but I am still laughing.

Please do, but in the meantime, fix your view of why people are complaining. They aren't complaining just to hate, like that's a hobby in its own right, but because they have legitimate criticisms that GW doesn't try to address.
The balance issue puts many people off of the game. And your understanding of the balance issue is inaccurate. People are not asking for sameness. I don't know where you got that idea. They want armies to be different but they also want them to be on the same page in terms of power level. Playing Eldar shouldn't give that player an advantage just because he's playing Eldar.
Internal balance has to do with poor codex writing with some units being laughably bad and some being horribly OP. Look at SW vs Howling Banshees. You see SW spam and never see Howling Banshees unless the player is masochistic.

And if GW would do something good and address concerns and communicate with its player base, you'd see less actual complaining and drops in sales.

When 7th hit in my area, the 40K community dried up in a matter of weeks. It started becoming very noticeable when 3 weeks in a row small tournaments were canceled for lack of participants.

The meta here is fairly simple, not many actually bring netlists, not many really care about competitive lists. The games for the tournament were simple low point games to let people explore the finer changes without opening up too much craziness.

Still, it dried up. Not because of the internet hate train. These were people that ran stealth suit swarms, cron footslogging, DA bike armies, and thousand sons lists.

The problem boils down to the maelstrom missions I think. During the first few weeks we had several games to test out the new system. It was a hassle.
The mission cards were sold out so that led to book keeping, which was a hassle. Having to purchase cards just to remove that hassle felt like a tax on the book.
The book was already taxed on it's own, because we had to purchase 2 books we didn't want/like to get the one we needed.
When we played the mission it always ended based around two big issues. The psychic phase and luck of the draw.
Psychich phase was an all in or all out deal now. You couldn't really expect to bring a psyker or two and not expect to be shut down if your opponent brought any defense. Psykers were now a tax or a hassle since you either had to include several in your list. Either that or risk the one or two low levels being useless.

Luck of the draw was terrible. On top of the hassle of book keeping, we had so many games with impossible objectives to claim. Yes there is a way to cycle cards, but over the course of the game you will cycle 5 out at the end of the turn from that. If you drew 3 useless ones in the beginning you are severely hindered.

I'll go ahead and head you off at the pass, yes we know there are many easy fixes to that system. But that's another hassle. There are so many easy fixes and solutions that it becomes a pain to choose 1 and go with it for everyone. It's even more of a problem when you realize how easy it would have been just for GW to print those fixes themselves. It's not a matter of something being overlooked or what ever passive way you could dismiss GW's rule issues before. It is a completely idiotic system on it's own and the fixes are so simple to make it work that it truly shows what a bad rule system it is. This is the heart of 7th. And it speaks volumes in its own right.

So don't try to tell me that hate is the problem to the game. Hate is passion. 40K died here with no passionate cries of anguish. It died in silence as one by one players shelved their armies. Hate didn't kill the game. Apathy killed it. And not from us. From the people who pushed an edition out early.

Don't tell me that we are the problem.

Played 4th eldar in 5th and 6th and i enjoyed the game a lot more than i do now. Now its either "i cant beat that unit with anything but X, so i have to take X" or "does X shoot better than Y? Take it". The game has gone from a shooting game with assault breaking up gunlines if you could run the right list (and get a bit lucky), to armies having every rule in the rulebook to make shooting better, but assault seeing no buff. Seriously, i think i have had two non-vehicle assaults in all of 7th with my IG or Eldar. I would never take a dedicated assault unit this edition except for Death Korps Riders. My nids are staying shelved due to the horrid codex and lack of ability to run a shooting army.

I cant think how the game is better off in any way from Pre-GK 5th. While the game was not balanced then, you could compete with every army in the game bar Necrons. I took top places in multiple tourneys with genestealer spam nids and harlequin eldar. These tourneys were ~50 people. Now, the tourneys are lucky with 10.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

So don't try to tell me that hate is the problem to the game. Hate is passion. 40K died here with no passionate cries of anguish. It died in silence as one by one players shelved their armies. Hate didn't kill the game. Apathy killed it. And not from us. From the people who pushed an edition out early.

Don't tell me that we are the problem.

I dont think i can describe it better than that.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I'll go ahead and head you off at the pass, yes we know there are many easy fixes to that system. But that's another hassle. There are so many easy fixes and solutions that it becomes a pain to choose 1 and go with it for everyone. It's even more of a problem when you realize how easy it would have been just for GW to print those fixes themselves. It's not a matter of something being overlooked or what ever passive way you could dismiss GW's rule issues before. It is a completely idiotic system on it's own and the fixes are so simple to make it work that it truly shows what a bad rule system it is. This is the heart of 7th. And it speaks volumes in its own right.

So don't try to tell me that hate is the problem to the game. Hate is passion. 40K died here with no passionate cries of anguish. It died in silence as one by one players shelved their armies. Hate didn't kill the game. Apathy killed it. And not from us. From the people who pushed an edition out early.

Don't tell me that we are the problem.

Also, you shouldn't have to fix the rules out of the box. Yes, you can change how Maelstrom missions work, but why pay almost $100 for a rulebook if it's crap and requires modification? Even an actual RPG like D&D, which actually encourages creating your own things, can be played "out of the box" with zero modification if you wanted. Yet a wargame that is intended to be a balanced competition between two players, and the largest and arguably most popular wargame needs to have house rules to make it playable?

WayneTheGame wrote:


Also, you shouldn't have to fix the rules out of the box. Yes, you can change how Maelstrom missions work, but why pay almost $100 for a rulebook if it's crap and requires modification? Even an actual RPG like D&D, which actually encourages creating your own things, can be played "out of the box" with zero modification if you wanted. Yet a wargame that is intended to be a balanced competition between two players, and the largest and arguably most popular wargame needs to have house rules to make it playable?

The issue for me is that the "fixes" are so easy and simple that it's insane they were overlooked.
It is the exact same thing to me if the rule book said:
"This game uses D10. Roll 1D10, results 1-6 apply as normal and 7-10 are re-rolled. You can wipe off any markings on the die or write over them so it's easier to see if you need to re-roll"
The fix is obvious. Use a D6 in this case. But it shows such a fundamental misunderstanding of how the game works that it's baffling to see time wasted in typing, printing, and editing if anyone actually saw it and passed it on thinking it was a good idea.

e.earnshaw wrote:
If it annoys you so much I will edit but I am still laughing.

i wouldnt bother. Your fine. English is a second (or third language to some and your grammar is no worse than many others here. They only make fun of you because they cant fault your logic. If you had broken a rule by not having a full grasp of the English language, then 100% of the members here would be because i challenge anyone to prove that they have never, not even once made a grammatical error. Missed a comma, accidentally hit a period, misspelled a word or forgot to capitalize a lett or whatnot. when an admin/mod tells you that you are breaking rules for any of those things, THEN, I would worry about editing.

Your view is spot on. Many players are simply unable to evolve or learn new tactics and strategies or how to learn to play under new rulesets. They think that if they complain enough, the world will change to how they think it should be. The rest of us learn and become better players or accept that we are no longer on the top of the pile. It is just a matter of taking responsibility for yourself an not pointing fingers. Any time, you point this out, you can expect them to lash out at you in any way they can. Faulting your grammar is actually pretty mild lol

 EVIL INC wrote:

e.earnshaw wrote:
If it annoys you so much I will edit but I am still laughing.

i wouldnt bother. Your fine. English is a second (or third language to some and your grammar is no worse than many others here. They only make fun of you because they cant fault your logic. If you had broken a rule by not having a full grasp of the English language, then 100% of the members here would be because i challenge anyone to prove that they have never, not even once made a grammatical error. Missed a comma, accidentally hit a period, misspelled a word or forgot to capitalize a lett or whatnot. when an admin/mod tells you that you are breaking rules for any of those things, THEN, I would worry about editing.

We did fault his logic. Several times. Just because you choose to ignore it doesn't make it so.
And a Mod did say that it was breaking the rules.

Bad grammar aside, it is a thing (not a problem) on Dakka. So many people have been in the game for long enough that 40k isn't even remotely the same game. I think the only constant is the Space Marine stat line, but even the Bolter has changed. And the people that complain the loudest are the people that lost something when it changed.

Now, I'm on both sides of that thing. My Tyranids I played in 3rd are nothing like Tyranids in 7th. They're less fun, my favorite units are useless and the main reasons I took them are gone. Including the visual reasons since they did a MASSIVE model overhaul for 4th edition. So when I got back in 40k I essentially dropped Tyranids. I play Space Marines and Eldar now and am making the move into Dark Eldar allies and Inquisition.

People are saying the Dark Eldar codex is awful. I don't know what was lost so I'm looking at Reavers and Farseer Jetbike combos and thinking this is the best thing in the game since 12mm dice. Fresh eyes and things look like a friggin daisy. Now, starting all over again when a new codex or edition drops isn't the most friendly on the wallet way to look at things, and I'll prolly rage at 8th since I am back in the game now, but it's almost like a hard reset every time and people can't let go without making a complaint.

It's really up to the user to get over their complaints however they choose and the other users to let the people be that complain with each other because that's what they want to do. Both sides can have their corners with like-minded people and the friction is where the two collide.

So OP, if you don't like the complaining, don't read those threads. Simple as that. They're not shouting their views in your ear at the Local Gaming Club, they're writing it down in a contained place for people that share their concerns or views to agree, disagree or make conversation about it. But there's no reason to call out a section of players because you don't want to hear what they have to say. Just don't read it.

You faulted it. But your faulting did not change it's validity or truthfulness.

The rules change with each edition. I know having played from Rogue Trader on to the present. Each edition changes and alters a little bit. Why? likely just so they can make more $ selling newer stuff. Also, it is tweaking by the dev team and such to fitdirections they want to go at the time.
has any edition been perfect? Nope. Not even close. lol
Has different editions enabled some playstyles and armies to do better than others? Absolutely.
Lets look at that fact for a moment...
This allows different players to rise and fall within gaming groups by making their style in vogue or out of vogue. This means that it keeps people in the game because eventually, how they play will come back around.
There have been times when I have done poorly (to say the least) because I had trouble wrapping my head around different tactics or strategies because they just didnt make sense. I learned them anyway and started doing better. Instead of sitting there crying about how GW ruined the game, I took charge of my life and did something positive about it and educated myself and learned. This made me a better player. Not only in that edition but in later ones as well.
The ones crying now could do the same thing or they can go to online forums and complain. OR they can do as the OP suggested and just play the edition they prefer. I'm curious, has GW personally called up anyone and told them that they are not allowed to play the edition they like? I know I havnt gotten the call and if I did, they did not leave me a message.

Actually, the mod said that an effort be made. That is a FAR cry from a sledgehammer declaration that everyone use perfect English with nary a grammatical error EVER being against the rule. I'm sure that if someone were to read each and every post of each and every member (mods and such as well) that we would eventually find the odd misspelled word, missing comma or un capitaized letter. The OP made that effort. The mod was pointing that out to you guys.

 EVIL INC wrote:

e.earnshaw wrote:
If it annoys you so much I will edit but I am still laughing.

i wouldnt bother. Your fine. English is a second (or third language to some and your grammar is no worse than many others here. They only make fun of you because they cant fault your logic. If you had broken a rule by not having a full grasp of the English language, then 100% of the members here would be because i challenge anyone to prove that they have never, not even once made a grammatical error. Missed a comma, accidentally hit a period, misspelled a word or forgot to capitalize a lett or whatnot. when an admin/mod tells you that you are breaking rules for any of those things, THEN, I would worry about editing.

Your view is spot on. Many players are simply unable to evolve or learn new tactics and strategies or how to learn to play under new rulesets. They think that if they complain enough, the world will change to how they think it should be. The rest of us learn and become better players or accept that we are no longer on the top of the pile. It is just a matter of taking responsibility for yourself an not pointing fingers. Any time, you point this out, you can expect them to lash out at you in any way they can. Faulting your grammar is actually pretty mild lol

Bullgak.

Just straight-up, unadulterated, 100% pure bullgak.

His logic is flawed because the premise is flawed, and the suggestion is purile. Unless people are playing in a group of like-minded individuals, there is no real option to play an earlier edition of the game if that is not what your local scene supports. If you're stuck playing in the local shops, and the local shops all play 7th ed (because they always play the latest edition because 1/3rd of them are tourney players, or because they always like to be on the latest-and-greatest, or because that's the books the store stocks, or some other reason entirely), then if you want to play 40k in your area, you're either going to play 7th Ed or you're not going to play at all. Or, option 3, you pack up your things, sell your house, and move to a new city where the gaming groups all play 40K, and all play some-edition-other-than-this-one, and all of them have room for another player. Option 3 isn't really an option.

Newsflash: 40K ain't that popular anymore. Players in the US that are not lucky enough to live in a large, cosmopolitan metropolis that supports gaming/comic shops and their attendant crowds of nerds and geeks (which, let's face it, we all are), are kind of fethed. If they live in a small town with only 5 other 40K players within 500 miles, or live in a place where they are the *only* 40K player within 500 miles and get to play 1 game a month when they can arrange to travel to someone else's store/house/whatever to play... for these people, if the rest of their circle only wants to play this edition, and not that edition ("that edition" being whatever edition it is our illustrative 7th Hater wants to play)... then they're fethed.

It's not much different in the cliques of the larger cities that have multiple local gaming stores (we don't really have GW corporate stores here, not any more). If the crowd in that local store doesn't want to play 4th Ed anymore... then you're not getting a 4th Ed game. And this is assuming that your FLGS even has 40K players. There are many areas (Seattle being one of them), where 40K just isn't played anymore, outside of a few small circles. It's all Warmachine or FoW or Infinity or some other wargame... if it's a wargame at all. MTG is still very popular here (as are CCGs in general), as are RPGs, in our local stores. You are far more likely to walk into a FLGS here and see one table playing Pathfinder, another playing MTG, and two playing Warmahordes, and that's assuming it's one of our few four-table stores.

So people complain because they're now sitting there with several hundred to several thousand dollars worth of stuff that might not be all that fun to play anymore, because the local meta has changed and what they have now is just not at all fun to play anymore, or because they are now expected to shell out a few hundred more dollars to update what they have, or because they had a fluffy army based around certain SCs that simply no longer exist, and now their army is pretty well fethed (it's not Marbo without Marbo's rules, it's just some dumb grunt named Marbo). So that player is not left with a lot of great choices, from their perspective or the perspective of 40K. Their best option, IMO, would be to jump ship to a better-written, cheaper wargame, but many people are reluctant to do that, for a number of reasons.

You may disagree but that does not change the facts or the truthfulness of the post.
As we have seen in every edition, there are two types of players. Type 1. complains and moans and still loses games because they refuse to learn new things or admit that their playstyle does not match the "current edition". they would prefer that GW give them personal priority over every other player in the entire world and customize the game JUST for them.
Type 2. understands that stuff happens and times/editions change. They adapt, buy or convert models to match the "current" powerful ones. They also learn new strategies and tactics that will now work where before they might not have. These players find themselves winning more and more games and becoming better players as a result.
Side note, it might be a good idea to keep the posts at least somewhat polite and un-insulting in case a mod or admin popps in for a surprise visit.

Each edition of 40k was unbalanced in it's own unique way. Playing previous editions won't solve the inherent issues with 40k. Furthermore, why is it always on the player to balance the game? Games Workshop charges us top dollar for it's books. I expect effort.