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 Verthane wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Also jetbikes should not be troops.

WS nerf, no troop jetbikes, maybe LoW the wraithknight (we got wraithlords in HS already, and the WK is on a whole other level even compared to riptides) and small buffs for the underdogs (banshees, avatar, the failer phoenix) and the eldar codex is good to go.

Completely agreed. I limit myself to 1-2 wave serpents, but would really love to be able to bring Maugan Ra or Jain Zar and her gals without feeling like I'm playing a 1500 point list against an 1850 list. Every codex has some of those types of things though, so this is pretty understandable.

Completely dissagreed. As a new 40k player with my only army as Eldar, these Eldar bashing threads are very frustrating. I guess I haven't played enough to see how OP my chosen faction is, but it is really discouraging to think I'm getting myself into a game where I'll have people rolling their eyes because I'm not undercutting my army just because they think it is too strong.
I for one would I'd LOVE another DT that only costs 35 points. Or a way to Drop my troops further down field in some type of Pod (see what I did there) using a DT.
Some games I feel that the ONLY thing my army has going for me is my WS. My FP can't hurt Jack with only one shot/turn, troops get blasted to pieces by Defilers, War walkers are torn to shreds or blasted by Dreads. WS cut to ribbons by carnifexes (right unit?) with 36 billion shots/turn. Sure JB have 3+ armor and have great mobility, but how many troops, even elites, have a 3+ in Eldar, two iirc? Now compare that to SM. Don't even get me started on S3 T3 for the entire army. I may be able to hit easily, but it's pretty crappy when 8 Banshees hit on a charge and only cause 1 wound.

Rather than bash the WS, think of it this way. Maybe its nerfed already as the selectable weapon is TL, and not two independent weapon choices, and it doesn't only cost 35 points.

Besides, how does nerfing the only DT Eldar have make things better? If you nerf it, at least drop the price of it by a sizable amount. If it gives you that much trouble, why not just ban serpent shield but then drop the price by 1/2 to 1/3? If SS is the real culprit like everyone says, that would be a win win right? sigh...

If you nerf WS, it makes me wanna say sure, but then make sure to say no more drop pods (too mobile) no Rhinos (too cheap) and no Razorbacks (ugly). You can only use a Predator as a DT, capacity 12, we'll even give it skimmer, but now has base cost 115.

Frustratedly yours,

rookshunter

You will have to live with it as any Eldar player does because the Wave Serpent are simply that broken, and thats as an Eldar Player

from another thread:

This article pretty adequately sums up the problem with Wave Serpents:

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/game-changers-the-wave-serpent/

likely worth a read.

but yes the Eldar should have another DT (or two)
yes Banshees should be better - or at least playable

but they dont and they are not - so cheese serpents it is...............

 rookshunter wrote:
but how many troops, even elites, have a 3+ in Eldar, two iirc?

Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Windrider Guardians. So 2/4 Elites, and 1/3 Troops depending on whether or not you take a Spiritseer.

 Happyjew wrote:

 rookshunter wrote:
but how many troops, even elites, have a 3+ in Eldar, two iirc?

Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Windrider Guardians. So 2/4 Elites, and 1/3 Troops depending on whether or not you take a Spiritseer.

Exarchs in a squad have 3+ armour as well

 rookshunter wrote:

 Verthane wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Also jetbikes should not be troops.

WS nerf, no troop jetbikes, maybe LoW the wraithknight (we got wraithlords in HS already, and the WK is on a whole other level even compared to riptides) and small buffs for the underdogs (banshees, avatar, the failer phoenix) and the eldar codex is good to go.

Completely agreed. I limit myself to 1-2 wave serpents, but would really love to be able to bring Maugan Ra or Jain Zar and her gals without feeling like I'm playing a 1500 point list against an 1850 list. Every codex has some of those types of things though, so this is pretty understandable.

Completely dissagreed. As a new 40k player with my only army as Eldar, these Eldar bashing threads are very frustrating. I guess I haven't played enough to see how OP my chosen faction is, but it is really discouraging to think I'm getting myself into a game where I'll have people rolling their eyes because I'm not undercutting my army just because they think it is too strong.
I for one would I'd LOVE another DT that only costs 35 points. Or a way to Drop my troops further down field in some type of Pod (see what I did there) using a DT.
Some games I feel that the ONLY thing my army has going for me is my WS. My FP can't hurt Jack with only one shot/turn, troops get blasted to pieces by Defilers, War walkers are torn to shreds or blasted by Dreads. WS cut to ribbons by carnifexes (right unit?) with 36 billion shots/turn. Sure JB have 3+ armor and have great mobility, but how many troops, even elites, have a 3+ in Eldar, two iirc? Now compare that to SM. Don't even get me started on S3 T3 for the entire army. I may be able to hit easily, but it's pretty crappy when 8 Banshees hit on a charge and only cause 1 wound.

Rather than bash the WS, think of it this way. Maybe its nerfed already as the selectable weapon is TL, and not two independent weapon choices, and it doesn't only cost 35 points.

Besides, how does nerfing the only DT Eldar have make things better? If you nerf it, at least drop the price of it by a sizable amount. If it gives you that much trouble, why not just ban serpent shield but then drop the price by 1/2 to 1/3? If SS is the real culprit like everyone says, that would be a win win right? sigh...

If you nerf WS, it makes me wanna say sure, but then make sure to say no more drop pods (too mobile) no Rhinos (too cheap) and no Razorbacks (ugly). You can only use a Predator as a DT, capacity 12, we'll even give it skimmer, but now has base cost 115.

Frustratedly yours,

rookshunter

Uhh, capacity 12 capacity transport who's base gun is a 2 shot S7 ap4 gun, is a skimmer, and is only 115pts? 150 with heavy bolters?

I'd take that. 6 termie armoured models in a skimmer for 115 pts?

Rhinos are an av11 box that can't get a 3+ cover save and are armed with a single stormbolter. They can't really be compared to the wave serpent, which is vastly superior.

Drop pods are a one time movement, so get one move. Eldar skimmers can move almost entirely across the board in a turn, every turn, if they desire. Drop,pods are also armed with a stormbolter at base coat.

Razorbacks have half the capacity, inferior weaponry, movement, armor, and defence. They, with the better weapons, cost 75pts. They do not come base with a Stormbolter.

Comparing the wave serpent to marine basic transports are stupid. A wave serpent has the weaponry in the weight class of a land raider, but instead of av14, it gets a 3+/4+ jink. Not the utility, mind you, but Eldar can now ally in dark eldar Raiders if they want an assault vehicle atm.

And your problem seems to be using a fire prism instead of wraith Knights, not putting your troops in cover, or using you war walkers as outflanking suicide units to obliterate a target of choice. If your serpents are still carrying you to victory, good on you!

Guys.. This thread is about Eldar WITHOUT the Wave Serpent and the shield.

 Happyjew wrote:
Regarding your proposed changes.

First I agree that with the exception of Tyranids, any non-Flyer on the large oval base (Wraithknight, Dreadknight, Riptide, etc.) should be a LOW choice. As it is, I'v rarely seen more than 1 per army, and for some that frees up an extra slot .

Regarding Jetbikes. Since at least 3rd edition Eldar Jetbikes conferred a 3+ armour save. Personally I think it's silly that a 1 point bump to WS and BS, and pseudo-rending is worth negative 5 points, but oh well.

Compare them to Space Marine bikes (troops with a Captain biker).

for 4 points more the SM bikers get:
+1T
+1S
+twinlinked 24" RF (relentless from bike) guns
+The option to take 3 special guns (1 combi) on a 5 man troop squad to handle anything.
+The option to take a "vyper" (attack bike).
+The option to combat squad.
+krak grenades
+chapter tactics
+sergeant with pfist or power weapon, etc
-But they can only go 24" instead of 48" if they flat out. On a table where you generally start 24" apart, 48" isn't that big a deal.










Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zewrath wrote:
Guys.. This thread is about Eldar WITHOUT the Wave Serpent and the shield.

To some people, everything in the Eldar codex is brokenly OP, even the banshees according to some GK players who used them as an example of why their strike squads should be cheaper. People like to compare the worst example of other codexes to the best/only option the Eldar have in any situation. I don't see people breaking down the point cost of it vs competitive choices in other codexes. The hated Schroedinger's Serpent somehow costs 115 points, has 14 AP2 bright lances shooting 60" with a 3+ cover, twinlinked bs4 everything, is somehow always able to move away from exposing rear armor ever, securing objectives while being out of assault range and ignoring hull point losses on a 2+ the way they'd spew the hate. It would be laughable if it wasn't so widespread. Meanwhile IG/AM throw a camo net on an AV14 vehicle in a corner ruin and sit on a 3+ cover for the AV14 3+ all game and the dark angels carry their 4++ PFG everywhere. Meanwhile it's like the crappyish devilfish but pays almost 60 points extra for the shield.

Anecdotally, I find the vitriol seems to be coming from people that have neither cover ignoring, fast moving, forward deployment nor dedicated assault elements in their forces - in otherwords, non-Tau gunlines. These are often the same people who don't bubble wrap landraiders then say they suck because they die to a podding melta on T1. Lose your armour T1? Buy scouts, bikes, infiltrators or jetpacks and just screen them if one drop pod melta can ruin your plan.

Jet bikes have already been addressed (aka not nearly as good as SM bikes, even at 17/21 the cost). Random thought, make them 21 and give them deep strike. Discuss.


WK is 3+ and dies to poison/snipers rapidly, unlike the 2+ cheaper riptide, and takes a HS slot instead of elites. If HS slots aren't an issue, I'd rather have 2 cool models with 3W than 1 with 6 to avoid instant death if nothing else. When a pair of WK are handle-able by a pair of kroot blobs or PAGKSS, it's not really OP in my book. I don't like giant models so I haven't used it but it's basically 2 wraithlords glued together with a jump pack.

The Avatar got hit pretty hard by the double nerf - smash and the 4++ ->5++ so it's even less competitive (but still fun in fluffier games).

Guardians die to flamers with no save, just like they die to bolters out of cover. You get a say in where cover goes if you follow the rules so don't whine about playing on planet billiard ball or where all the ruins are on the side you didn't roll to get after stacking the deck.


The typical Eldar force is optimized to facing AV10/11. They do OK against AV 12, but fail hard vs AV13 and 14 and in assault. They get hate because they exist in a quantum field of improbability - where the opponent always has a list tailored to whatever you bring because Eldar. If you have AV14, somehow every gun is a brightlance. If you have poison, they have no MC. If you want to assault, they move away...

My tacticals can move 6 and assault 2d6~7=13". The serpent is 7" long. I don't know about your deployment, but I tend not to leave 40" diameter circles of nothing on my 48" wide board, but that's just me. If you leave your DZ, I'll probably be in assault T2 with anyone who wants to be in assault. The drop pod guys (or iron clad) can be in assault T2 whether or not you leave your DZ. Eldar are not OP, they just let the Eldar player capitalize on other player's mistakes.

Eldar and space marines are what EVERY codex should be like. Lots of viable choices that made you feel the pain of only have 3 slots in the FOC. Chapter Tactics is a great mechanic to give your list variety without requiring new models. Before this multiCAD BS anyway...

 rookshunter wrote:
Completely dissagreed. As a new 40k player with my only army as Eldar, these Eldar bashing threads are very frustrating. I guess I haven't played enough to see how OP my chosen faction is, but it is really discouraging to think I'm getting myself into a game where I'll have people rolling their eyes because I'm not undercutting my army just because they think it is too strong.

Based on what you say in this post, it is pretty clear that yes, you probably haven't played enough games to see how OP they are. And you probably haven't read up on all the "bashing" we've done to explain why WS are too good (I don't blame you for that, but that's part of the reason why these threads keep going, because someone chimes in and then suddenly everyone has to get them up to speed before the next apologist comes along).

 rookshunter wrote:
Rather than bash the WS, think of it this way. Maybe its nerfed already as the selectable weapon is TL, and not two independent weapon choices, and it doesn't only cost 35 points.

...what? Is that supposed to be a Rhino comparison? Because I'd rather have scatter lasers, a shuriken cannon and a serpent shield over 2 Storm Bolters (for 40pts no less).

 rookshunter wrote:
Besides, how does nerfing the only DT Eldar have make things better? If you nerf it, at least drop the price of it by a sizable amount. If it gives you that much trouble, why not just ban serpent shield but then drop the price by 1/2 to 1/3? If SS is the real culprit like everyone says, that would be a win win right? sigh...

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that a nerfed WS would need a price adjustment. (sigh)

 rookshunter wrote:
If you nerf WS, it makes me wanna say sure, but then make sure to say no more drop pods (too mobile) no Rhinos (too cheap) and no Razorbacks (ugly). You can only use a Predator as a DT, capacity 12, we'll even give it skimmer, but now has base cost 115.

So if you can't have your DT be OP, then no one else can have reasonable transports for any reason either? Sounds fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
The hated Schroedinger's Serpent somehow costs 115 points, has 14 AP2 bright lances shooting 60" with a 3+ cover, twinlinked bs4 everything, is somehow always able to move away from exposing rear armor ever, securing objectives while being out of assault range and ignoring hull point losses on a 2+ the way they'd spew the hate. It would be laughable if it wasn't so widespread. Meanwhile IG/AM throw a camo net on an AV14 vehicle in a corner ruin and sit on a 3+ cover for the AV14 3+ all game and the dark angels carry their 4++ PFG everywhere. Meanwhile it's like the crappyish devilfish but pays almost 60 points extra for the shield.

Sigh... in regards to Shroedinger's Serpent, which has been addressed in the other thread, I don't think anyone claims that a Wave Serpent will do everything at once. The fact that it can do basically any of those things whenever it's necessary makes them super flexible and reliable - overly so in fact. WS apologists like to argue that "of course Shroedinger's Wave Serpent is OP, but you see WS can't do all those things at once!!" to try to discredit arguments about it being OP.

In regards to AV13+, Eldar armies technically shouldn't have too many issues there since they have a couple sources of S10 or melta weaponry, better than most other armies which don't struggle with AV13+ any more than Eldar.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 rookshunter wrote:
Besides, how does nerfing the only DT Eldar have make things better? If you nerf it, at least drop the price of it by a sizable amount. If it gives you that much trouble, why not just ban serpent shield but then drop the price by 1/2 to 1/3? If SS is the real culprit like everyone says, that would be a win win right? sigh...

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that a nerfed WS would need a price adjustment. (sigh)

Actually a lot of people want it to be nerfed OR get the priced hiked. Some want both.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
The hated Schroedinger's Serpent somehow costs 115 points, has 14 AP2 bright lances shooting 60" with a 3+ cover, twinlinked bs4 everything, is somehow always able to move away from exposing rear armor ever, securing objectives while being out of assault range and ignoring hull point losses on a 2+ the way they'd spew the hate. It would be laughable if it wasn't so widespread. Meanwhile IG/AM throw a camo net on an AV14 vehicle in a corner ruin and sit on a 3+ cover for the AV14 3+ all game and the dark angels carry their 4++ PFG everywhere. Meanwhile it's like the crappyish devilfish but pays almost 60 points extra for the shield.

Sigh... in regards to Shroedinger's Serpent, which has been addressed in the other thread, I don't think anyone claims that a Wave Serpent will do everything at once. The fact that it can do basically any of those things whenever it's necessary makes them super flexible and reliable - overly so in fact. WS apologists like to argue that "of course Shroedinger's Wave Serpent is OP, but you see WS can't do all those things at once!!" to try to discredit arguments about it being OP.

In regards to AV13+, Eldar armies technically shouldn't have too many issues there since they have a couple sources of S10 or melta weaponry, better than most other armies which don't struggle with AV13+ any more than Eldar.

It has NOT been addressed as you are playing Schrodinger's Serpents right here. Break down the serpent price compared to a DevilFish or a chimera (half the price and free firing points) and the shield is appropriately costed into the model given it is AV10 rear and dies to assault from even tacticals., much less a dedicated unit. Serpent haters don't post fixed lists, the Eldar player always has the other options from the codex to meet any situation. Hordes? Scatter laser walkers. AV14 Bright lance walkers. Riptides Suncannon WKs. Play a fixed list and that gak goes away.

I think THAT's the root of the Eldar hate. It's option ENVY. The book has lots of good choices, so people are unhappy that the Eldar, having the choices of Rock, Paper and Scissors, can beat their codex's unbalanced list of Rock when they only want to bring Rock because they don't have Paper and don't like Scissors. I say, bring chapter tactics and all* viable unit entries to all codexes.

*OK, so banshees still suck without grenades. I do like the acrobatic change someone suggested to make them treat all vehicles as open topped when disembarking. Makes me smile to think of a modded up clown car serpent with them leaping out circus style. S3 and no furious charge would still make them suck of course.

I think THAT's the root of the Eldar hate. It's option ENVY. The book has lots of good choices, so people are unhappy that the Eldar, having the choices of Rock, Paper and Scissors, can beat their codex's unbalanced list of Rock when they only want to bring Rock because they don't have Paper and don't like Scissors. I say, bring chapter tactics and all* viable unit entries to all codexes.

... which makes the Codex OP. If you have Codex: Rock, Paper, Scissors, Spock, and everyone else gets only Rock, or Paper, or Scissors (and never sees Spock) then, yes, the Codex is OP.

Even if other Codices get Rock/Scissors or Paper/Scissors, or Rock/Paper options... the Eldar still have something that can exploit the thing they don't have. That's a problem, especially when you have to know that you're going up against Eldar Scissors. so you know to play, say, IG Rock. If your list is IG Scissors, too, you lose, let alone IG Paper.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 rookshunter wrote:
but how many troops, even elites, have a 3+ in Eldar, two iirc?

Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions, Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Windrider Guardians. So 2/4 Elites, and 1/3 Troops depending on whether or not you take a Spiritseer.

Exarchs in a squad have 3+ armour as well

Shining Spears, Warp Spiders in FA, Dark Reapers and Vaul's Battery in HS. You can field an entire 3+ army with eldar. Marines, pfft

To me, an army so quick and devious like the Eldar shouldn't have so strong defenses. 3+ shoud be used only for stuff that really deserves it (Wraithguards, Dark Reapers, Striking Scorpions). No FA/Troops should even have access to it aside the Exarch.

It has NOT been addressed as you are playing Schrodinger's Serpents right here. Break down the serpent price compared to a DevilFish or a chimera (half the price and free firing points) and the shield is appropriately costed into the model given it is AV10 rear and dies to assault from even tacticals., much less a dedicated unit. Serpent haters don't post fixed lists, the Eldar player always has the other options from the codex to meet any situation. Hordes? Scatter laser walkers. AV14 Bright lance walkers. Riptides Suncannon WKs. Play a fixed list and that gak goes away.

Didn't read the other post at all did you? Someone did break down the Wave Serpents firepower.

It's the equivalent to 4 Chimera's and 4 autocannon heavy weapon teams, without taking into account it's a fast skimmer.

www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/game-changers-the-wave-serpent/

I think THAT's the root of the Eldar hate. It's option ENVY. The book has lots of good choices, so people are unhappy that the Eldar, having the choices of Rock, Paper and Scissors, can beat their codex's unbalanced list of Rock when they only want to bring Rock because they don't have Paper and don't like Scissors. I say, bring chapter tactics and all* viable unit entries to all codexes.

Sigh, no its not I hate and despise Cheese Serpetns and I play Eldar - get it right.

Chpater Tactics would haev worked for all Codexes - yep - do we want Cheese Serpents in all armies - hell no

 Happyjew wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
A. Nobody uses Guardians, remember? B. Dire Avengers have 18" guns that fire TWO shots, so better than rapid fire already. C. Both A and B can run and shoot, and have fleet. Pretty much negates the range penalty.

Funny last time I checked, I used Guardians exclusively. I must be doing something wrong. No wonder I'm not winning against Tournament lists.

Nooooooo. I would recommend bringing Guardians ONLY and ONLY IF you can convince your opponent to wipe the dust off his Mutilators and deploy them.

Pfft. No dust gathers on mutilators in my meta. Or Guardians. Mutilators aren't used as often as other things, but Guardians are a lot of fun!

 Psienesis wrote:

I think THAT's the root of the Eldar hate. It's option ENVY. The book has lots of good choices, so people are unhappy that the Eldar, having the choices of Rock, Paper and Scissors, can beat their codex's unbalanced list of Rock when they only want to bring Rock because they don't have Paper and don't like Scissors. I say, bring chapter tactics and all* viable unit entries to all codexes.

... which makes the Codex OP. If you have Codex: Rock, Paper, Scissors, Spock, and everyone else gets only Rock, or Paper, or Scissors (and never sees Spock) then, yes, the Codex is OP.

Even if other Codices get Rock/Scissors or Paper/Scissors, or Rock/Paper options... the Eldar still have something that can exploit the thing they don't have. That's a problem, especially when you have to know that you're going up against Eldar Scissors. so you know to play, say, IG Rock. If your list is IG Scissors, too, you lose, let alone IG Paper.

Except (almost) every codex does have Rock paper and scissors options. People just want to play their rock all the time.

SM can do bikes, land raiders speeders, pods, grav cent spam, etc. They have good psyker option (Tiggy is tops), etc. Tau can do everything but CC well, and they still have infiltrating 20 man blobs of kroot for 6 points each, 7 with snipers, so they can out green tide the green tide. IG/AM can take a tank as warlord, conscript spam, etc. The only thing they lack is T4 or S8. The Tempestus guys can get salvo4 AP3...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It has NOT been addressed as you are playing Schrodinger's Serpents right here. Break down the serpent price compared to a DevilFish or a chimera (half the price and free firing points) and the shield is appropriately costed into the model given it is AV10 rear and dies to assault from even tacticals., much less a dedicated unit. Serpent haters don't post fixed lists, the Eldar player always has the other options from the codex to meet any situation. Hordes? Scatter laser walkers. AV14 Bright lance walkers. Riptides Suncannon WKs. Play a fixed list and that gak goes away.

Didn't read the other post at all did you? Someone did break down the Wave Serpents firepower.

It's the equivalent to 4 Chimera's and 4 autocannon heavy weapon teams, without taking into account it's a fast skimmer.

www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/game-changers-the-wave-serpent/

Nice deflection, but that's not true either. A 10 man sternguard can put out 20 plasma shots. That doesn't make them the "equivalent" of 50 tactical squads (10 5 man with 1 special weapon each). Because they don't get 50 wounds. 1 krak grenade can wreck a serpent. IT can't kill 4 chimeras no matter how many 6's you roll nor how foolish a general you face. Last I checked the WS didn't have 12 hull points and 8 wounds on top of that, couldn't disembark it's guns, etc. I read that post when it came out and if you are looking to hate and pretend the table is infinitely large with no LoS blocking terrain, then yeah, long range fast moving stuff is tough. Try putting your army case on the table as terrain if you don't have any. Or house rule it that woods 3" thick block line of sight or that each level of a hill is 3" high for TLoS purposes. Or you know, take things that can assault, like a tactical squad in a pod.

The AM Chimera is an av12 front vehicle. It can be a DT for a troop that converts a special and HW team. So that's a 4 shot S6 gun, a 10 point lascannon and say a melta gun, all of which can fire in the same turn, for a lot less than the price of a Serpent with crew. Stick a wall of 3 man conscripts in front of it and it is bubble wrapped with a 5+ cover. Camo nets make it 4+ cover - even if it doesn't move. You can take two for every DAVU serpent and have more hulls, more hull points, more guns and more bodies on the field. Only a 48" range though, which really sucks on those 100' x 100' tables some people seem to play on based on the complaints. On a 6x4, the serpent will never get a shot at side armour of the chimera wall walking up the table.

Tactical marines are widely viewed as meh. You can drop 60 of them in combat squadding pods and field 18 OS units, keeping the heavy guys in the back field if desired and guaranteeing as many iron clads and sternguard pods in T1 that you want. That list crushes serpent spam, so say nothing of competitive necron/tau lists.

Tau ignore cover, 'nuff said.

It's fine, you want to hate them and don't want to address the legitimate points being raised, don't want to go through the figures to show exactly where the OP for the price comes from. Land raider apologists do the same thing. Wah wah its too expensive for a transport since it can't shoot, wah wah it's too weak to be a gunboat since it pays for the transport cost. Cry me a river.

Keep claiming that the Serpent spam army has all those S10 AP1 shots without actually listing a fixed army.
Swap the population of SM players with the Space elf players and you'd be whining about how OP SM are, because their quantum flux Elite choices are heavy flamer/plasma cannon LotD spam vs infantry and combi melta sternguard pods vs tanks.

I'm sorry if your 'nid codex or whatever is railroaded into flyrant spam, but I happen to think every codex should have the OPTION of bring a mostly rock, paper or scissors army depending on the WRITTEN list the player wants to bring.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Pfft. No dust gathers on mutilators in my meta. Or Guardians. Mutilators aren't used as often as other things, but Guardians are a lot of fun!

Truth in that. I ran 40-60 when I played Eldar and the fast shot Avatar could wreck vehicles in CC before the smash nerf and 5++ nerf and fire prisms could boost each other for lols. Playing Dark reapers and watching their AP3 amount to nothing as 4 covers saves were taken instead made me realize how important terrain was, and how useful shadow weavers and d cannons could be. Especially when the weapon batteries were the jetbike sized pieces instead of the duplo looking current ones.

Except (almost) every codex does have Rock paper and scissors options. People just want to play their rock all the time

SM do, in most of their variants. BT are paper, no scissors, no real rock. GK are rock/paper. IG does. Hmm.... that's.. about it. DE are all scissors. CSM are either rock or paper, there's no scissors there. SoB only have paper. Tau have Rock and Scissors, no paper (yet, new Riptide from FW may shake this up). Necrons have only Scissors and Paper. Tyranid are all Paper, and wet paper at that. Orks are rock and paper.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:


I'm sorry if your 'nid codex or whatever is railroaded into flyrant spam, but I happen to think every codex should have the OPTION of bring a mostly rock, paper or scissors army depending on the WRITTEN list the player wants to bring.

RAWR... did you just compare the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS CODEX to THE ELDAR?!?

Also you fail to mention that AP3 is by far USUALLY Str3 and only on the volley gun which is a salvo weapon out to 24 inches that is Str4.

Look Eldar are in general the problem, you got units that can do everything (Wave Serpents) But you also got the specialist units that complement them. Eldar are ridiculously point efficent once Wave Serpents are added to a army. They pop transports short of the goddamn Land Raider like it isn't a big deal.

So you are telling me the counter to Wave Serpents is LAND RAIDERS? And then you have the gall to say Eldar players ARE JUST PLAIN BETTER?

Quickjager wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:


I'm sorry if your 'nid codex or whatever is railroaded into flyrant spam, but I happen to think every codex should have the OPTION of bring a mostly rock, paper or scissors army depending on the WRITTEN list the player wants to bring.

RAWR... did you just compare the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS CODEX to THE ELDAR?!?

Also you fail to mention that AP3 is by far USUALLY Str3 and only on the volley gun which is a salvo weapon out to 24 inches that is Str4.

Look Eldar are in general the problem, you got units that can do everything (Wave Serpents) But you also got the specialist units that complement them. Eldar are ridiculously point efficent once Wave Serpents are added to a army. They pop transports short of the goddamn Land Raider like it isn't a big deal.

So you are telling me the counter to Wave Serpents is LAND RAIDERS? And then you have the gall to say Eldar players ARE JUST PLAIN BETTER?

Not at all, but feel free to whip up that self-righteous anger. They seem weak to me vs drop pods and anni barges, storm ravers, etc, but feel free to put words in other peoples mouths so you can tear apart a strawman. I only see actual wave serpents, not the 14 bright lance toting twin link ignoring cover ones on a 100'x100' table. I hear those are terribly OP.

RAWR write a Space Marine or Chaos Space Marine list that is dedicated to killing serpent spam.

Lets say 1750 points

Alright, you KNOW i am bringing max Wave Serpents, now write a list to beat it.

Meanwhile I will be writing the Eldar list, lets come back in a hour or so and then post them and let people decide which is the better TAC list.

EDIT: Scratch that I'm bringing only 4 Wave Serpents plan accordingly, don't want to bi of a stomp.

Last I checked the WS didn't have 12 hull points and 8 wounds on top of that, couldn't disembark it's guns, etc.

Yawn, I said firepower, and you are deflecting so hard it's kinda funny at this point, so full of hyperbole, ignoring reality, and constant insults.

I think Warp Spiders are a bit too good for their price:
1) Insane mobility
2) Insane firepower for infantry
3) 3+ save for better than average survivability

They need to lose one out of three or get at least a 5 point increase per model.

And yeah also the Serpent needs tweaking obviously.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

for 4 points more the SM bikers get:
+1T
+1S
+twinlinked 24" RF (relentless from bike) guns
+The option to take 3 special guns (1 combi) on a 5 man troop squad to handle anything.
+The option to take a "vyper" (attack bike).
+The option to combat squad.
+krak grenades
+chapter tactics
+sergeant with pfist or power weapon, etc
-But they can only go 24" instead of 48" if they flat out. On a table where you generally start 24" apart, 48" isn't that big a deal.

Most of those complaints are not part of the SM biker vs Eldar biker comparison, but between Space Marines and Eldar in general. The reason Eldar Jetbikes are a problem is that compared to other biker units, they are too cheap:
Nearly all basic biker units follow a standard pricing guideline- basic troop statline and cost, + 6-8 points to add a bike/jetbike.
Space Marines- 14 point tactical marine. 7 point bike adds +1T, bike type, makes the bolter twin linked. Fast Attack, but units of 5 or more bikes are troops if you also take a captain or chapter master on a bike.
Chaos Marines- 13 point chaos marine. 7 point bike adds +1T, bike type, adds twin linked bolter. Fast Attack
Orks- 6 point slugga boy. 4 points for eavy armor, 8 point bike adds +1T, bike type, tl dakkagun, +1 to jink if turboboosting. Fast Attack.
Necrons- 13 point warrior. 7 point bike adds +1T, jetbike type, TL tesla carbine. Fast attack.
Dark Eldar- 10 point wych. 6 point bike adds +1T, Eldar Jetbike type, 5+ armor like warriors, splinter rifle, skilled rider, bladevanes. Fast Attack.
Eldar- 9 point Guardian. 8 point bike adds +1T, Eldar Jetbike, makes the shuricat twin linked, adds 3+ armor. Troops.

The problem is that change to 3+ armor, which is huge, especially on a cheap, extremely fast troop choice. where do the points for it come from? A similar S3 T3 Warrior acolyte pays 10 points to go from a 5+ save to a 3+ power armor save, , which would put the cost of the eldar windrider jetbike at -2 points. It's also on a unit that fills required troop slots and has objective secured, which has a value of it's own compared to other bikes.

Just because it has been 3+ armor forever does not make it a wise move to leave it that way. Drop the armor to 4+ or 5+, drop the cost to 15-16 points per biker, and you still have a strong troop choice, but a much more balanced one.

While I agree that WS is OP, I think the rest of the Eldar force is fairly priced.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:


Most of those complaints are not part of the SM biker vs Eldar biker comparison, but between Space Marines and Eldar in general. The reason Eldar Jetbikes are a problem is that compared to other biker units, they are too cheap:
Nearly all basic biker units follow a standard pricing guideline- basic troop statline and cost, + 6-8 points to add a bike/jetbike.
Space Marines- 14 point tactical marine. 7 point bike adds +1T, bike type, makes the bolter twin linked. Fast Attack, but units of 5 or more bikes are troops if you also take a captain or chapter master on a bike.
Chaos Marines- 13 point chaos marine. 7 point bike adds +1T, bike type, adds twin linked bolter. Fast Attack
Orks- 6 point slugga boy. 4 points for eavy armor, 8 point bike adds +1T, bike type, tl dakkagun, +1 to jink if turboboosting. Fast Attack.
Necrons- 13 point warrior. 7 point bike adds +1T, jetbike type, TL tesla carbine. Fast attack.
Dark Eldar- 10 point wych. 6 point bike adds +1T, Eldar Jetbike type, 5+ armor like warriors, splinter rifle, skilled rider, bladevanes. Fast Attack.
Eldar- 9 point Guardian. 8 point bike adds +1T, Eldar Jetbike, makes the shuricat twin linked, adds 3+ armor. Troops.

The problem is that change to 3+ armor, which is huge, especially on a cheap, extremely fast troop choice. where do the points for it come from? A similar S3 T3 Warrior acolyte pays 10 points to go from a 5+ save to a 3+ power armor save, , which would put the cost of the eldar windrider jetbike at -2 points. It's also on a unit that fills required troop slots and has objective secured, which has a value of it's own compared to other bikes.

Just because it has been 3+ armor forever does not make it a wise move to leave it that way. Drop the armor to 4+ or 5+, drop the cost to 15-16 points per biker, and you still have a strong troop choice, but a much more balanced one.

All these other bikes have either very good shooting capabilities or close combat ones or even both. The Eldar windriders have no hitting potential, they are nothing special in CC and their shooting albeit useful is too short ranged. You will almost always choose to hide them instead of sending them to kill anything because they are most useful at taking objectives than actually killing something.

 Weazel wrote:
I think Warp Spiders are a bit too good for their price:
1) Insane mobility
2) Insane firepower for infantry
3) 3+ save for better than average survivability

They need to lose one out of three or get at least a 5 point increase per model.

And yeah also the Serpent needs tweaking obviously.

Yes they are good at shooting. But they have S3 and T3. They are more vulnerable to shooting than you basic SM and they are useless at CC. Plus their range is only 12, true they can shoot and move afterwards but the distance is random. A fast unit will easily dispose of most of them in 1 round of CC.

Most Eldar units do one thing and only one very well. It is theme theme of the army. An example would be the wraith guard, you don't get to choose to equip only 2 or 3 with flamers, you either take them all with flamers or none. Because otherwise they would be crazy good against anything. The problem of the WS is that performs too well in every way, tough transport, great mobility, very good firepower. In my opinion shooting the shield should go away or at least make it one use only and loose it for good.

 Weazel wrote:
I think Warp Spiders are a bit too good for their price:
1) Insane mobility
2) Insane firepower for infantry
3) 3+ save for better than average survivability

They need to lose one out of three or get at least a 5 point increase per model.

This guy knows what up, strange that not many others do. I have always and probably will always harp on about how incredibly good Warp Spiders are. Used to have to be 272 points to be able to do what they do now for 190pts. Plus they got quicker and hit harder now.

As for OP, well Eldar are probably the most exploitable army out there. Plenty of great choices and that stack nicely with each other.

I'm still a believer that spamming Strength 6 is the best way to do things.

Spiders are a bit on the strong side, but they are noticeably more fragile than MEQ, cost a decent amount, have relatively short range, perform terribly in melee, and are likely to off a couple of their own.

They seem only a little high on the value-to-cost side to me, although they might be overly nasty spammed.

If there's enough terrain for them to not get shot to death in one round, they tend to have to make a lot of dangerous terrain tests.

I wouldn't consider them broken.

Quickjager wrote:
RAWR write a Space Marine or Chaos Space Marine list that is dedicated to killing serpent spam.

Lets say 1750 points

Alright, you KNOW i am bringing max Wave Serpents, now write a list to beat it.

Meanwhile I will be writing the Eldar list, lets come back in a hour or so and then post them and let people decide which is the better TAC list.

EDIT: Scratch that I'm bringing only 4 Wave Serpents plan accordingly, don't want to bi of a stomp.

I'm not your secretary, so ask nicely if you want a favor. Show me the OP list you actually fear and I'll tailor a counter for you since you don't seem to know how to do that. I'm not going to bother fighting the list that morphs form all scatter lasers to bright lances once AV13/14 comes out, or fire dragons that switch to skyhawks, wraithscythes, or suddenly has 9 D-cannon artillery guns in int. Show me a list, I'll write you a counter list. You may want to keep in mind that the NOVA winner had zero holofields or bright lances.


Max scatter laser serpents is easier to beat. Landraiders and termies. Even tacticals assaulting out of termies does the job. You can't touch them. The other basic option is drop pod spam, iron clads/sternguard and of course, the ignores cover Legion of the Damned melta guns. Hell, even AM Lehman Russ Nova cannon spam will stop that with hull and sponson weapons, then wound on a 2 and deny all armour and cover saves. And the "OP" scatter laser serpent shields won't be able to scratch the paint. If I allied in a techmarine and take camo nets, I'll have AV14 sitting on a 2+ cover, and AV 14 rear armour to boot to be mobile.

I play one FOC and no allies for my SM but there are plenty of options.

Give me a specific list and I'll write you a specific counter. If your position is that Eldar have all wraithscythes vs horde lists and dcannon/fire dragons vs tank lists... Well then, may as well flip a coin to see who wins because then you are playing a very expensive version of rock paper scissors.











Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Spiders are a bit on the strong side, but they are noticeably more fragile than MEQ, cost a decent amount, have relatively short range, perform terribly in melee, and are likely to off a couple of their own.

They seem only a little high on the value-to-cost side to me, although they might be overly nasty spammed.

If there's enough terrain for them to not get shot to death in one round, they tend to have to make a lot of dangerous terrain tests.

I wouldn't consider them broken.

They're also in the "wonderful" FA slot competing with Hawks. Vipers are ok, but you are usually better off with another 6 hawks for the large blast if you have the slot and a few more points free. The rest of the FA choices are shining spears (better than banshees, but not by much), worthless, over priced AV10 all around flyers that die to a quad cannon as they show up (and is still taken when Eldar skimmers are expected) and the vyper which is like a SM land speeder without the double multi melta/HF option.

Eldar get "wah OP" hate because their codex has an answer to everything, so people's resentment makes them think that the "twin linked everything" wave serpent will have bright lances to pop land raiders and have fire dragons wraith knights and dcannons galore, while the match up against a horde list will inevitably have wraith scythes and war walkers. Possibly because people DO tailor their list when they know who they will play. I know some people that have multiple lists and seem to have chosen the one to unpack that matches up favorably against their opponent's weaknesses. I don't even say what army I'm bringing when I schedule a game with them, just put my list face down on the table and ask for theirs before I unpack.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

Quickjager wrote:
RAWR write a Space Marine or Chaos Space Marine list that is dedicated to killing serpent spam.

Lets say 1750 points

Alright, you KNOW i am bringing max Wave Serpents, now write a list to beat it.

Meanwhile I will be writing the Eldar list, lets come back in a hour or so and then post them and let people decide which is the better TAC list.

EDIT: Scratch that I'm bringing only 4 Wave Serpents plan accordingly, don't want to bi of a stomp.

I'm not your secretary, so ask nicely if you want a favor. Show me the OP list you actually fear and I'll tailor a counter for you since you don't seem to know how to do that. I'm not going to bother fighting the list that morphs form all scatter lasers to bright lances once AV13/14 comes out, or fire dragons that switch to skyhawks, wraithscythes, or suddenly has 9 D-cannon artillery guns in int. Show me a list, I'll write you a counter list. You may want to keep in mind that the NOVA winner had zero holofields or bright lances.


Max scatter laser serpents is easier to beat. Landraiders and termies. Even tacticals assaulting out of termies does the job. You can't touch them. The other basic option is drop pod spam, iron clads/sternguard and of course, the ignores cover Legion of the Damned melta guns. Hell, even AM Lehman Russ Nova cannon spam will stop that with hull and sponson weapons, then wound on a 2 and deny all armour and cover saves. And the "OP" scatter laser serpent shields won't be able to scratch the paint. If I allied in a techmarine and take camo nets, I'll have AV14 sitting on a 2+ cover, and AV 14 rear armour to boot to be mobile.

I play one FOC and no allies for my SM but there are plenty of options.

Give me a specific list and I'll write you a specific counter. If your position is that Eldar have all wraithscythes vs horde lists and dcannon/fire dragons vs tank lists... Well then, may as well flip a coin to see who wins because then you are playing a very expensive version of rock paper scissors.

Here. This won the local 1500pt tournament, going 4-0. Every game was won by a major margin (4 VPs or more over the opponent). They might have even tabled everyone for all I know. (Also, there's 25pts over in there somewhere, so probably no Shuriken cannon on 3 of the Serpents?)

HQ
Autarch (naked)

TROOPS
5x Dire Avengers (Wave Serpent with Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon)
5x Dire Avengers (Wave Serpent with Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon)
5x Dire Avengers (Wave Serpent with Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon)
5x Dire Avengers (Wave Serpent with Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon)
5x Dire Avengers (Wave Serpent with Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Wraightknight (2x Heavy Wraith Cannons)
Wraightknight (2x Heavy Wraith Cannons)

Note that in this tournament, no one could take allies so you might need to factor that in. Also, if you want to keep this out of a vacuum, your list has to be good enough to deal with other lists you might run into in a tournament, since you only had a 1/26 chance of facing this in the first match, and you were going to need to keep getting major victories if you wanted to face off against this list. I did, and I got tabled anyway, despite winning every other game that day.

What was your list btw? Was it SW like your flavor name suggests?

The revenant titan too. That's a bit OP (and before a certain person brings a trancendent c'tan into the mix - yes that is even more OP, but doesn't stop the revenant from being OP).

Personally I think warp spiders, jetbikes and shining spears need a 2 point increase, whilst banshees, rangers, harlequins and storm guardians need a decrease.

Would be far more balanced then both internally and externally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also can we note that a member who complains about serpent bashing brought this thread which was specifically set up to ignore serpents, back round to serpents. It's like a fundamentalist going onto an atheist forum and complaining about peoples views in such a forum.