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Quickjager wrote:
What was your list btw? Was it SW like your flavor name suggests?

Yup, MSU/TWC Wolves.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Here. This won the local 1500pt tournament, going 4-0. Every game was won by a major margin (4 VPs or more over the opponent). They might have even tabled everyone for all I know. (Also, there's 25pts over in there somewhere, so probably no Shuriken cannon on 3 of the Serpents?)

HQ
Autarch (naked)

TROOPS
5x Dire Avengers (Wave Serpent with Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon)
5x Dire Avengers (Wave Serpent with Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon)
5x Dire Avengers (Wave Serpent with Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon)
5x Dire Avengers (Wave Serpent with Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon)
5x Dire Avengers (Wave Serpent with Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Wraightknight (2x Heavy Wraith Cannons)
Wraightknight (2x Heavy Wraith Cannons)

Note that in this tournament, no one could take allies so you might need to factor that in. Also, if you want to keep this out of a vacuum, your list has to be good enough to deal with other lists you might run into in a tournament, since you only had a 1/26 chance of facing this in the first match, and you were going to need to keep getting major victories if you wanted to face off against this list. I did, and I got tabled anyway, despite winning every other game that day.

Bit of a shift there, from "Serpent OP" to "write a tournament winning list, without knowing the other armies likely to play, the rules, terrain, etc. That guy's list would not win a major tournament. What finished #2? Maybe specify the tournament rules too, or do you guys just play for kill points with wide edge to edge deployments standard? Your 1/26 figure is rubbish of course, as I might have knocked him out of the tourney in round 1 just as much as if I faced in in the "4 and 2/3" round.

Back to the original point of "Wah I can't beat serpent spam" - loosely translated. That's not a scary list - it relies on the WK to handle everything a serpent can't and those DA are dead the turn they step out and those are vulnerable to any sniper (kroot) or poison (DE (venoms still viable?)) list out there, as well as other Eldar and of course, Necron. None of the top tourney lists look like that.

Since you are not giving me rules, I'll assume a table wide deployment and kill points with no objectives. That means I'll want a kill point denial list and not a stronger list like white scar bikers sticking to cover and skipping their jink if they feel like grav gunning.
Since an actual game relies on terrain and knowing how the serpents/WK deploy I'll have to assume I get first turn. If you want first turn, show me a reasonable map - symmetrical so the sides don't matter and the terrain with LoS blockers AND your deployment. I'd probably just reserve though so it'd be to your detriment anyway.

So, kill point denial single codex SM 1500 list...

Ok, first pass would be:
1 Libby
2 5 man sniper scout squads.
2 5 man LotD w melta+combi melta.
2 3 Centurion Devastators w/GravCannon+Amp and an Omniscope
1 DT LR wMM+XA
and a firestorm redoubt with 2 battle cannons and an ammo store (for the embarked guys later).

If my math's right, that's 1500 on the dot.

Cent unit A likely starts in the land raider (or just behind it out of sight no matter where you move, turning sideways if I need to) with the libby in cover near the center at my deployment edge near LoS blocking terrain I can hide behind if things go wrong.

The redoubt goes angled on the "east" edge providing extra line of sight blocking so I can hide the scouts when they come on. The foot Cents start there out of line of sight and embark into it, with a 24" bubble of effectively BS5 (ammo stores) rerollable grav cannon wounds. The landraider remains in that bubble of protection until both WKs are dead. If I need to juggle that positionign a bit I can, but the idea is clear - deny you Line of Sight to anything not AV14. The tables I play on tend to have ~3 ruins, ~4 hills and ~4 woods. That's actually on the skimpy side, not even 25% coverage, but that's enough to get me some protection options via LoS restrictions from anything in T1 if I want it.

The LotD can't deploy, so they don't count for deployment. If I wanted, I could deploy the libby, cent #1 and raider as 3 units and the other cent as unit #4, but I can just deploy 2 of my 4 units and be good on the reserves rule. I reserve the scouts and hope they don't come on until T4. Let's assume one comes on in T2 and the other in T3 though. I'll bury them out of line of sight in my grav bubbles of death.

So I have 3 lascannons firing at 2 targets starting T1 from the LR. They'll target the WK's, likely hitting, ignoring armour and plinking wounds away. The only you have that can touch them is the WK. You'll hit on 3, glance on 4 and be cover saved on 4 for the first turn. if a WK comes close enough to shoot it, that means I can move 6, disembark 6 and grav you to death the next turn. If you JSJ away, yoru 2 WK's are close enough that the my battle cannons can potentially hit both WK. What Battle Cannons?

I could have had another 4 LC shots via automated fire on the redoubt, but I went for the 72" battle cannons instead. Why? bc they'll prioritize your MC due to their rules and the 72" range means they can cover the table aside from the far corner where you could hide 1 WK, maybe 2, but then you are out of range. Once they're dead, the serpents die. If you try hide serpents there, they won't all fit. 7"x5" chassi is a bit large. If you are bunch up I'll likely hit more than one with the scatter, otherwise I'll pop one a round if it doesn't jink and one every other round if they do. Plus you can NOT jink from the scatter based on the YMDC threads (consensus, but not a strong one), so figure you lose 2 every 3 rounds if the fort's up.

Assuming you don't castle in a corner hiding (where my BC's will still find targets and scatter onto more since you can't fit 7 7x5" bases in the out of range corner), then you have to engage me. When you do, the grav's will each kill a WK, and one of them can move 6, disembark another six and hit you in your own DZ. They also have split fire which means I can force 4 serpents to jink each turn, or kill those that don't. Depending on deployment options I might have the snipers on the board to plink a WK anyway since you will need to be in range of BC to fire the 60" shield.

I don't really care what the libby gets, ( I have yet to field a psyker in 7th bc I don't like the abomination that is invisibility phase) but I'm sure I can get some edge out of it half the time. Maybe shriek, gate, perfect timing? Whatevs, that's just gravy. Tiggy +GoI is the abuse on that one.

You might get lucky and pop both the LR and the redoubt, but probably not, and if you do, I'll kill the WK's. 2 kill points for 1.

My LotD will drop in T2/T3/T4 and each likely kill a serpent with 2 ignores cover melta shots, because you'll either have jinked or be dead already from LC/BC fire. I'll expect them to kill 2 serpents, 3 if I'm lucky before they die and give up my only likely KPs. I'll either win on kill points, or table you.

Grav cents are obnoxious, but so are WK/Riptide/ABarges/nightscythes, etc. I could drop the redoubt for a more central bastion and LC, plus 4 dev LC/PC (and maybe a meat shield to man the IC while the serg passes on a BS5), but why bother if I'm looking to "win" a tournament rather than just have fun?). Plus I don't like the models. That said, for 2 HS slots and 520 points Grav Cents will generally wreck 4 units a turn.

I could also drop a unit of cents and take another LR, for more killy but less tanky stuff, but I think it's pretty clear that even this list can stomp your "OP" list, plus it is easier to explain since it ignores most table considerations since they work on basically any terrain other than planet billiard ball.

Drop a WK and two DA for a couple squads of fire dragons and the Eldar list gets much better, but is equally counterable. Sternguard are a bit more versatile than the LotD and they can take a DWML pod, combat squad and pop 2 vehicles and then S5 blast the disembarked one, but you originally asked for a counter Eldar list, so that's what you got. This list obviously sucks against hordes, but Orks with thinkin kap and extra/rerollable strategic rolls can generally stuff 3 battle wagon in your face via infiltrate/outflank anyway.

Oh yeah, I'd shoot for the stealth ruins/infiltrate on the strategic table. You autolose if I get to infiltrate the cents since I'll pop both WK on T1 no matter what you do if so with 15 grav shots per unit that reroll to wound (10 hits, ~9 wounds with the reroll, no armor save and you didn't buy an invuln, vs serpents they hit 10 times, "wound" 4 (rerolls) and either kill 1 or immobilize 2 while stripping hull points. Possibel both). I may even infiltrate the land raider for line breaker and rear pot shots/tank shock (I grant it to the cents, which convey it to their DT). I might infiltrate the other cents too and put the scouts in the redoubt T1 depending on how bad your deployment is. But I don't need to if it means risking you getting 4 kill points. I may just infiltrate near my redoubt and pop 4 serpents instead if you are over there or in reserves, but that's all situational.

I'm sure you imagine there is some other outcome, because you are brilliant and I wouldn't change my deployment if the table is ill suited to to it. Or you play without line of sight blocking terrain, but I've assumed you have a halfway competent plan, so please do me the favor of assuming I'm not an idiot in my deployment plans either.

If you want T1, I could care less. The only thing that can hurt my KP denial list is WK and if they are on the board T1, they will likely not be on T2 . Even if you want ot get lucky with a charge in, my wrecked raider will have been deployed out of line of sight to your serpents so you've got to come inside my double grav bubbles to shoot the 2+ save guys inside. Your list has 2 scary things. I have 6 scary things and mine are scarier to your guys than yours are to me if we have statistically average rolls.

Also, Imotek's storm (?) will F up your "OP" list hard all by itself and can be bubble wrapped out of line of sight for at least 3 turns with smart deployment of units and terrain.

Edit:

Oh and chapter tactics. Does it matter? I guess Iron hands for FNP on the cents.

That's a lot of talk considering that list actually won games rather than armchairing games - for instance the terrain you mention is much more than most tournaments or games I have ever played in.

Can you give example of actual games where what you have described has worked in reality?

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

that list would not win a major tournament.

Except:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/1st-Overall-Champion-Tony-Kopach-Nova-2014-.pdf

So, kill point denial single codex SM 1500 list...

Ok, first pass would be:
1 Libby
2 5 man sniper scout squads.
2 5 man LotD w melta+combi melta.
2 3 Centurion Devastators w/GravCannon+Amp and an Omniscope
1 DT LR wMM+XA
and a firestorm redoubt with 2 battle cannons and an ammo store (for the embarked guys later).

If my math's right, that's 1500 on the dot.

That's a horrible list. The LotD are useless after they have delivered their melta. Scouts are useless entire game.
A single LR that's easy to focus down and would be a field trip for the WK to remove.
So you have 3 cents that's supported and 3 others that isn't? Why would you omniscope them when they are only 3 and have no Libby to support?

The posted WS spam list would roll that list all over the place.

If you wanted a real kill point denial unit then....

GK w/ SM allies

GK
HQ- Libby - ML3, Glaive
LoW - Draigo
Troops - 5 PAGK w/ Incinerator
Heavy Support - Dreadknight
Heavy Support - Dreadknight

SM
HQ- Sevrin Loth - Get Invisibility
Troops- 5 Scouts - Camo Net w/ Sniper rifles and a teleport homer
Heavy Support - 3 Centurions - Omni and Grav

Comes out to 1500 and the most kill points one could give up is 9 with 5 of those being in one squad that is going to have invisibility and GoI, along with whatever else the Libby snagged. Another 2 are on MC that will seriously wreck your face in and the last two are on your basic troops, one of which should be in a ruin and the other DS in late as possible.

 Zewrath wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

that list would not win a major tournament.

Except:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/1st-Overall-Champion-Tony-Kopach-Nova-2014-.pdf

So, kill point denial single codex SM 1500 list...

Ok, first pass would be:
1 Libby
2 5 man sniper scout squads.
2 5 man LotD w melta+combi melta.
2 3 Centurion Devastators w/GravCannon+Amp and an Omniscope
1 DT LR wMM+XA
and a firestorm redoubt with 2 battle cannons and an ammo store (for the embarked guys later).

If my math's right, that's 1500 on the dot.

That's a horrible list. The LotD are useless after they have delivered their melta. Scouts are useless entire game.
A single LR that's easy to focus down and would be a field trip for the WK to remove.
So you have 3 cents that's supported and 3 others that isn't? Why would you omniscope them when they are only 3 and have no Libby to support?

The posted WS spam list would roll that list all over the place.

No duh, the NOVA list had another 350 points. I didn't pick the 5 DAVU 2WK Eldar list, the Andius Greatsword did.

The LotD will likely grab 2 kill points on arrival. I don't care if they die afterwards, but they may grab a third or at least snuff some disembarked DAs.

The libby was there as an HQ tax, not to be productive.

Upon reflection though, the Autarch in there can be used for reserve shennanigans enabling DS on the WK and the autarchs WS, so I'd aim for the Redoubt with 2 2 shot twinlinked LC and more central placement instead, rather than hope to scattering onto multiple serpents. Maybe grab another mastery level on the libby with the points (dropping 5 rifles) and leave it at that hoping for gate. I'll put the scouts on the board T1 via infiltrate into an out of sight corner or as needed, and reserve the raider to counter his DS WK.

He can focus the LR if he wants. He gets 4 shots at it, hits under 3, glances under 2 and I'll have 4+ cover from the ruin. It's got about a 50:50 shot of surviving both WK's and I still have the AV14 redoubt.

For the other guy, the terrain isn't a square foot each. It's about 15% of the table and you should have 12 or so pieces (using the 6th d3 per table 6th, 2 average = 12) anyway, if they aren't that big. The tables are actually pretty bare feeling when you play, to the point that some people picked up and bring in their forgeworld battle boards.

To all, please don't tell me my proposed 1500 list is horrible compared to an 1850 point one. No sherlock. That's not productive or helpful to anyone, even if it makes you feel big and strong and powerful while you display poor reading comprehension. Instead, why don't you show you can do better vs the supplied 5 DAVU WS +2 WK list instead. What does your list look like against that?

Put up or shut up, or, since this is the Internet after all, don't. My feelings won't be hurt - it's Andius asking for help, not me. I play games for fun with people who do the same and no one here does that.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

No duh, the NOVA list had another 350 points. I didn't pick the 5 DAVU 2WK Eldar list, the Andius Greatsword did.

Yet that has the same amount of WS and 1 less WK. It's there to prove that the 1500 point lists, that follows a near identical pattern, is indeed very tournament worthy and your claim of said list being unable to win a tournament or major tournament is false.

The LotD will likely grab 2 kill points on arrival. I don't care if they die afterwards, but they may grab a third or at least snuff some disembarked DAs.

Your LotD has 2 meltas. There's only ~ 44% chance that you will hit with both, so in the vast majority of your games, you'll see them hit only once. So you'll have to rely on 1 melta killing a transport. Given the opponent will know you are deep striking melta, he will deploy the serpents with the back side against the table edge or simple bubble wrap, which will be absurdly easy since you don't have a MM with a threat range of 12"

The libby was there as an HQ tax, not to be productive.

You're wasting potential then

He can focus the LR if he wants. He gets 4 shots at it, hits under 3, glances under 2 and I'll have 4+ cover from the ruin. It's got about a 50:50 shot of surviving both WK's and I still have the AV14 redoubt.

That's 1 round of shooting. How many rounds do you think the WK will shoot it? 50% is actually really good odds for AT to kill something..

To all, please don't tell me my proposed 1500 list is horrible compared to an 1850 point one. No sherlock. That's not productive or helpful to anyone, even if it makes you feel big and strong and powerful while you display poor reading comprehension. Instead, why don't you show you can do better vs the supplied 5 DAVU WS +2 WK list instead. What does your list look like against that?

Put up or shut up, or, since this is the Internet after all, don't. My feelings won't be hurt - it's Andius asking for help, not me. I play games for fun with people who do the same and no one here does that.

We weren't comparing those 2 lists. There's little point in comparing 1850 Eldar with 1500 SM.
We're just saying your list is gak, and given that you don't understand that cents need support in order to become truly obnoxious, it's hard to take you serious when you're trying to comment on competitive settings.

Put up or shut up, or, since this is the Internet after all, don't. My feelings won't be hurt - it's Andius asking for help, not me. I play games for fun with people who do the same and no one here does that.

Why am I not surprised that the guy who thinks the Forgefiend is OP in melee writes his list such as that?

"Show me an OP list you fear and I will tailor a counter to that since you don't seem to know how to do that". This was your statement RAWRAI, the list has been provided, please provide a tac 1850pt list so we can compare which is a better tac list. Don't however then give a 1500pt list and act horrified that they would be compared (even though they have not been).
Don't give it all the talk, and then when somebody calls you on it, go in a total different direction.
Put proof to your words. I'll even help you out if you want - to make a tac list that will beat that serpent list and still be a better tac, very few lists will be able to do this, try spamming sicarans. There we go, now you've had a bit of help, can you provide us with your tailored counter? And afterwards for extra marks and shiny stickers, try doing one without any help to start you off.
Also that 1500pt list you gave is not fantastic at all, especially against serps!

Forget KPs, it was objectives only, 3-5 depending on the table. Deployments were long and wide edges, and one with table quarters from 5th ed.

Oh and the #2 was Eldar as well, basically the same list but with some different embarked squads and Wraithknights swapped for Crimson Hunters. He went 4/4 as well but 1 was a more minor victory so he came 2nd.

That said, I think this is a silly exercise. Any list can be hard countered, especially with the 7th ed shenanigans that are out there. However, Serpent Spam is probably the most TAC list out there just due to the versatility they offer. They don't have to tailor as much as other armies to win consistently.

And even if we forget about the whole versatility power, and "tilde-lock" the WS into any of his four possible setups, he's still a very solid choice. the ability to switch at will is what brakes it so hard.

Shield is either on or shooting, jink is either activated or not, there are 4 possible scenarios:

Shield mode unjinked-couples decent durability, decent firepower, good transport and good mobility. does pretty much everything you need to a reasonable degree without any downsides.

Shoot mode unjinked-comparable firepower to a similarly costed main battle tank, and comparable defense.

Shield mode jinked-the most indestructible transport in the game for the cost, and as jink has no effect on whoever is inside, its the perfect platform to carry highly destructive units with no meaningful protection or mobility of their own like fire dragons.

Shoot mode jinked-the one setup that is a failure, fortunately in a real game there is no logical reason to ever reach this setup besides desperation shots when you have nothing left, and as you had three solid setups to play with beforehand, you should not have gotten here.

So 3 are solid even when locked into a single option.


Lets go further and compare it to the most similar transport-the devilfish. for simplicity sake we'll compare the bare bones versions
Both are 12 model carriers that are DT skimmers.
Devilfish is 80 points, WS is 115
So you got 35 points difference.
The WS looses on 2 gun drones and a burst cannon.
The WS gains serpent shield, TL shuriken catapult, TL shuriken cannon, +1 side armor, +1 bs, and Fast status.

Even if the serpent shield is locked to either mode, its STILL a great deal.

 BoomWolf wrote:
And even if we forget about the whole versatility power, and "tilde-lock" the WS into any of his four possible setups, he's still a very solid choice. the ability to switch at will is what brakes it so hard.

Shield is either on or shooting, jink is either activated or not, there are 4 possible scenarios:

Shield mode unjinked-couples decent durability, decent firepower, good transport and good mobility. does pretty much everything you need to a reasonable degree without any downsides.

Shoot mode unjinked-comparable firepower to a similarly costed main battle tank, and comparable defense.

Shield mode jinked-the most indestructible transport in the game for the cost, and as jink has no effect on whoever is inside, its the perfect platform to carry highly destructive units with no meaningful protection or mobility of their own like fire dragons.

Shoot mode jinked-the one setup that is a failure, fortunately in a real game there is no logical reason to ever reach this setup besides desperation shots when you have nothing left, and as you had three solid setups to play with beforehand, you should not have gotten here.

So 3 are solid even when locked into a single option.


Lets go further and compare it to the most similar transport-the devilfish. for simplicity sake we'll compare the bare bones versions
Both are 12 model carriers that are DT skimmers.
Devilfish is 80 points, WS is 115
So you got 35 points difference.
The WS looses on 2 gun drones and a burst cannon.
The WS gains serpent shield, TL shuriken catapult, TL shuriken cannon, +1 side armor, +1 bs, and Fast status.

Even if the serpent shield is locked to either mode, its STILL a great deal.

Well said - now watch two or three aplogists try and say the Wave Serpent is a weak unit and "proper players" (like them) can defeat them with ease - well not they applogists cos they they all use Wave Serpents - odd that -and it must be fair - otherwise they would just be winning by using OP units and not their god like skill.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
And even if we forget about the whole versatility power, and "tilde-lock" the WS into any of his four possible setups, he's still a very solid choice. the ability to switch at will is what brakes it so hard.

Shield is either on or shooting, jink is either activated or not, there are 4 possible scenarios:

Shield mode unjinked-couples decent durability, decent firepower, good transport and good mobility. does pretty much everything you need to a reasonable degree without any downsides.

Shoot mode unjinked-comparable firepower to a similarly costed main battle tank, and comparable defense.

Shield mode jinked-the most indestructible transport in the game for the cost, and as jink has no effect on whoever is inside, its the perfect platform to carry highly destructive units with no meaningful protection or mobility of their own like fire dragons.

Shoot mode jinked-the one setup that is a failure, fortunately in a real game there is no logical reason to ever reach this setup besides desperation shots when you have nothing left, and as you had three solid setups to play with beforehand, you should not have gotten here.

So 3 are solid even when locked into a single option.


Lets go further and compare it to the most similar transport-the devilfish. for simplicity sake we'll compare the bare bones versions
Both are 12 model carriers that are DT skimmers.
Devilfish is 80 points, WS is 115
So you got 35 points difference.
The WS looses on 2 gun drones and a burst cannon.
The WS gains serpent shield, TL shuriken catapult, TL shuriken cannon, +1 side armor, +1 bs, and Fast status.

Even if the serpent shield is locked to either mode, its STILL a great deal.

Well said - now watch two or three aplogists try and say the Wave Serpent is a weak unit and "proper players" (like them) can defeat them with ease - well not they applogists cos they they all use Wave Serpents - odd that -and it must be fair - otherwise they would just be winning by using OP units and not their god like skill.

I won't say they are weak, nor will I apologize. But I will say that this thread is supposed to be about the Eldar codex sans Wave Serpent.

Yes, and than people showed up and claimed there is nothing wrong with WS, so we debunked that notion.

If you look back, I specifically said the the eldar codex is perfect if WS are nerfed and some other minor changes (like jetbikes not as troops, and on other sides some buffs)

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yes, and than people showed up and claimed there is nothing wrong with WS, so we debunked that notion.

If you look back, I specifically said the the eldar codex is perfect if WS are nerfed and some other minor changes (like jetbikes not as troops, and on other sides some buffs)

Well, Jetbikes getting a bit more expensive too. But otherwise, yeah. Everything Eldar is just inherently good (except a very few units), and without the Serpent Shield for the most part, they wouldn't be as obnoxious.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yes, and than people showed up and claimed there is nothing wrong with WS, so we debunked that notion.

If you look back, I specifically said the the eldar codex is perfect if WS are nerfed and some other minor changes (like jetbikes not as troops, and on other sides some buffs)

Well, Jetbikes getting a bit more expensive too. But otherwise, yeah. Everything Eldar is just inherently good (except a very few units), and without the Serpent Shield for the most part, they wouldn't be as obnoxious.

Cept Shining Spears, those need a decrease in cost (Or better rules).

So community consensus is that if Serpent were handled, Eldar would be alright? Jetbikers might be a little too good, but acceptably so?

Aside from a few holdouts, consensus does seem to be shaking out.

I believe so. All in all the Eldar codex is really good. It probably has the best internal balance of all of the codices, to the point, where a fluffy Eldar list can hold its own against most (if not all) fluffy lists and probably a few competitive lists. And that's without Serpents.

IMO, regarding Serpent Shields themselves. Remove the shooting profile, give them the following rule "In the shooting phase, instead of firing its weapons, a Wave Serpent can "fire" it's shield. All units within D6" must take a Pinning test." If people still think that is broken, then give them the old rule as well - Str 9+ is treated as Str 8, ranged attacks only get to roll a single Armour Pen dice.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It has NOT been addressed as you are playing Schrodinger's Serpents right here. Break down the serpent price compared to a DevilFish or a chimera (half the price and free firing points) and the shield is appropriately costed into the model given it is AV10 rear and dies to assault from even tacticals., much less a dedicated unit. Serpent haters don't post fixed lists, the Eldar player always has the other options from the codex to meet any situation. Hordes? Scatter laser walkers. AV14 Bright lance walkers. Riptides Suncannon WKs. Play a fixed list and that gak goes away.

Didn't read the other post at all did you? Someone did break down the Wave Serpents firepower.

It's the equivalent to 4 Chimera's and 4 autocannon heavy weapon teams, without taking into account it's a fast skimmer.

www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/game-changers-the-wave-serpent/

I'll not argue the volume of firepower a WS has isn't impressive. I'll just point out the fact that even with all that, it can still only shoot at one unit per turn. If the unit dies, great, but I've had even "piddly" tactical units where 0/5 models died in a full turn of shooting. Yes, I've taken out all 5 at times, but the other player has to be off their game to not make at least a few 3+ saves.
Also, I have to say while the presentation on that "break down" was impressive and technically accurate, it was only from a certain point of view. Notice there was only one target for three WS to go after. I don't know that I've EVER seen that or ever will in a real game. Those WS that moved up field to take on that one tank have a very good chance to be trash or in trouble next turn, in my experience. There are LOTS of ways to take out AV12. I've even seen a unit of scouts take out a WS (back shot). Sure I'm new to this, but I can't be the only Eldar player that feels pain. I can't be the only one not running optimized lists 24/7.
Also I agree, the way it compared firepower makes it sound very impressive until you realize that those 4 Chimeras and 4 AC heavy weapon teams can shoot at more than one unit per turn. I'm also reasonably sure most armies can optimize their points to get even more firepower on field. Also also, there is more to firepower in a unit. How many HP does those 4 Chimeras bring? Based on firepower alone, I think those 4 Chim + 4 ACHWT would obliterate a WS.

BTW, this brings up a good point, why is everyone complaining about 115pts? I'd never take a vanilla WS, and no one here is talking about vanilla, (even though everyone in this thread so far seems to think SL+SC+SS are free). WS(115pts)+SL(5pts)+SC(10pts)+Spirit Stones(15pts)=145, the standard loadout everyone here is talking about. If you want to talk about 115, the standard loadout is TL Surk Cannon (24" range), TL Surk Cat (12" range), and the Shield (non TL). Still strong, but much shorter ranges. The Shield is also fairly unreliable. Yes, I've had 7 shots before, but I've also had 2. Either one gave someone a laugh, me or my opponent respectively.

EDITED: included the range for Shurk Cannon, removed remnants of sentence not included in final post.

Bharring wrote:
So community consensus is that if Serpent were handled, Eldar would be alright? Jetbikers might be a little too good, but acceptably so?

Aside from a few holdouts, consensus does seem to be shaking out.

That was always my view - but then I also think all codexes need a proper review and that the bad units need fixing as much as the OP units.