Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Ehhh... most of the Primarchs landed on gakky war-torn planets, but not all of them turned bad. Sanguinus grew up on a planet infested with zombie-mutants, Corax was a prisoner, Kahn was a Warlord enamored in constant fighting, etc.
Living in a gak-hole is no excuse for being an donkey-cave. I say the same thing for Kurze that I say about Angron. If he was really just a poor tortured soul who hated life so much, he should have just vented himself out an airlock. There's no excuse for making the Galaxy suffer for your emotional baggage.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/14 18:33:30
BlaxicanX wrote: Living in a gak-hole is no excuse for being an donkey-cave. I say the same thing for Kurze that I say about Angron. If he was really just a poor tortured soul who hated life so much, he should have just vented himself out an airlock. There's no excuse for making the Galaxy suffer for your emotional baggage.
What are you talking about? Living in a gak-hole is far and away the best excuse for being an donkey-cave. And venting himself out an airlock wasn't going to solve the problem of OMG EVERYONE IN THIS gakky GALAXY REALLY NEEDS TO DIE RIGHT NOW.
BlaxicanX wrote: Living in a gak-hole is no excuse for being an donkey-cave. I say the same thing for Kurze that I say about Angron. If he was really just a poor tortured soul who hated life so much, he should have just vented himself out an airlock. There's no excuse for making the Galaxy suffer for your emotional baggage.
What are you talking about? Living in a gak-hole is far and away the best excuse for being an donkey-cave.
Nah. Tell that to all the Primarchs who grew up on gak-holes and didn't become psychotic monsters.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: And venting himself out an airlock wasn't going to solve the problem of OMG EVERYONE IN THIS gakky GALAXY REALLY NEEDS TO DIE RIGHT NOW.
Indeed. Hence why they're psychotic villainous bad guys rather than tortured puppies that just need a hug.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/10/15 00:55:29
Oh, I'm not saying that growing up into Psychotic Evil Vampire Batman was necessarily a choice Kurze made so much as what was forced onto him, but it's nevertheless what happened.
Yes, Corax and Sanguinius were on worlds almost as bad. But they had something he didn't - any form of caring human contact. Both were raised by humans as children and grew up with broadly positive views of humanity in their psyches.
A closer analogy is the Lion, who survived in the forest as a child, and was introduced into society later - and noticeably is a primarch with next to no people skills who despite his tactical and strategic instincts, can't really cope with a war where you don't have the good guys in white hats and the bad guys in black hats, and alternates between refusing to trust anyone and trusting people he really shouldn't have.
Kurze watched humanity from the outside, and formed his lasting opinion from the world he was born on. Unfortunately for the galaxy, that world was Nostromo, which is portrayed as an equal mix of 1920's chicago and the Butcher Bay super-max prison. As a result, his - perfectly logical - decision was that humanity consists entirely of terrified sheep and vicious bastards, and the only way to maintain any kind of order is to be even more terrifying, vicious, and bastardish than anyone else.
Terror - at least early on - is a method, not a goal.
Of course, visions, hatred, and general psycohopathy kind of corrupted that along the way.
He always had the visions that were driving him crazy.
Oh, and Emp punished him for doing the exact thing he'd done to dozens of other systems.
So he did choose his own path? Ok got it.
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
The Night Lords are fully aware that the chaos gods exist, but (for most of them) that's no good reason to go around doing anything as stupid as believing in them!
This part is more interesting, the more I think about it. In a way, it's sort of the rokko's basilisk problem.
Most chaos know that the chaos gods exist, and they then worship them, and most people in general don't worship them, but they don't know about their existence, either, so of course they wouldn't. It's an interesting idea that NL know that the gods are real, and that they don't worship them at the same time. They're not atheists - they know the chaos gods exist, nor are they your more garden-variety unbeliever.
They are apostates - they know the truth, but choose to reject its implications on ethical grounds.
I mean, it's easy to be an atheist in a world where there's no proof of god, but let's say that tomorrow he shows up everywhere and says "yeah, I'm real", and then hangs around and starts doing a bunch of god stuff. In the case of material proof, of course, very few would be atheists anymore (though there are a few flat-earthers left), but think about what kind of person you'd have to be to see tangible proof of the existence of God and then say "No thanks, we'll get along better on our own."
That's a special kind of crazy balsiness. That sort of infallible positivism is rare. Secular humanism, in a way, put to the test in a way it can't be now.
What you're describing is an anti-theist. Given the history of the world with a definitive god-form running it, I can see why people would take that position.
After all, there's some pretty terrible gak in the world. If God showed up tomorrow, I would ask Him "Why?". I doubt any answer He could give would satisfy me.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
BlaxicanX wrote:I mean... yeah, they have the whole "bat" motif thing going on with the ears, but they're methodology and convictions make them seem more like Space Punisher.
+1
If only they went around in black with a skull motif instead of flappy faced lightning squiggles...
You mean like the skull motif that lies at the center of their Legion symbol?
They have turned from the Emperor's light. There is no redemption for them. They have turned to their own agendas.
However, from a non-loyalist point of view, they actually are pretty redemptionable. Is that even a word? Anyways, they rebelled, which means that they did not turn to chaos. However, I don't think the Night Lords want to turn back to the Imperium.
They were always monsters. The Emperor chose them, turned them into superhuman monsters, and harnessed their horror upon Terra and the galaxy. To crush worlds in his name; flay, maim, defile, defenestrate, castrate, eviscerate and subjugate in his name. Their stubborn continued existence is a reminder that the Empire of Man was built on horror.
And when this Empire of Man finally tears itself apart, new monsters must be employed to strangle it back together.
How is that a redeeming quality? No allegiance to any of the four gods or a greater lord just makes them into backstabbing mercenary scums, which is an awesome but not very redeeming quality.
Because worshiping a god is shackling yourself to a life of servitude.
Night lords are all about freedom, what space marines can do when no one tells them how to act.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
The Night Lords are fully aware that the chaos gods exist, but (for most of them) that's no good reason to go around doing anything as stupid as believing in them!
This part is more interesting, the more I think about it. In a way, it's sort of the rokko's basilisk problem.
Most chaos know that the chaos gods exist, and they then worship them, and most people in general don't worship them, but they don't know about their existence, either, so of course they wouldn't. It's an interesting idea that NL know that the gods are real, and that they don't worship them at the same time. They're not atheists - they know the chaos gods exist, nor are they your more garden-variety unbeliever.
They are apostates - they know the truth, but choose to reject its implications on ethical grounds.
I mean, it's easy to be an atheist in a world where there's no proof of god, but let's say that tomorrow he shows up everywhere and says "yeah, I'm real", and then hangs around and starts doing a bunch of god stuff. In the case of material proof, of course, very few would be atheists anymore (though there are a few flat-earthers left), but think about what kind of person you'd have to be to see tangible proof of the existence of God and then say "No thanks, we'll get along better on our own."
That's a special kind of crazy balsiness. That sort of infallible positivism is rare. Secular humanism, in a way, put to the test in a way it can't be now.
Indeed. It's kind of the reverse of the creed put forwards by Argel Tal and the less cackling bond-villain types in his legion - what you might call the 'proper' word bearers in the same way Talos and Sevatar are the 'proper' Night Lords*. He's torturing you, burning your blood and chanting in dark daemonic tongues not because he's mad but because chaos is real and thats how sorcery works.
"The chaos gods are real, and disbelieving in them isn't going to make them go away. This is the way the universe is - it doesn't matter if I like it or not."
Lorgar himself is actually kind of similar - he tells Magnus that 'he hears the voices of the gods' and magnus warns him that they'll try to decieve him. Lorgar responds that he said he can hear them, not that he trusts them.
* Kor Phaeron and Erebus are still tools, though
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/16 07:25:02
Every space marine dies, not every space marine truly lives!
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
You do realize that the film Braveheart is historical fiction of the worst sort, right? And the Age of Enlightenment didn't do away with religion (far from it, actually, it would go on to create several more of them), it simply did away with pagan beliefs in the supernatural.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
He was the emperors terror weapon, his atomic threat. His legion quelled entire worlds merely by arriving in system. This is what the emperor wanted the night Haunter to be, however in the eyes of the fledgling imperium they went too far.
If you give a child a trowel and send them out into the garden to dig up weeds without properly instructing them as to which plants are actually flowers, how can you punish the child for your failings as a teacher?
Ailaros wrote: Yup, Braveheart was a movie, therefore freedom is a terrible thing.
/headdesk
One, William Wallace, in the film, represented a very-limited form of freedom. Freedom from an external nation ruling over an indigenous people. Not unlimited personal freedom to do whatever the feth you wanted.
Two, what "freedom" the Night Lords represent is "free to do whatever you want, until some stronger thing comes along, has its way with you, and leaves you broken and bleeding in the ruins of your own flesh, for the lulz"
Three, the Night Lords aren't freedom fighters. They're not trying to take down the Imperium. They know that is an impossible goal, especially since they fell apart into scattered warbands throughout the Eye of Terror since the death of Curze. They also don't give a feth about it. There is no unifying cause, creed or agenda for the Night Lords, apart from plunder and piracy. They exist only to fulfill their own selfish desires for loot, bloodshed, power, and entirely crushing an enemy.... preferably before the battle even starts. They are, at heart, cowards. They don't want to fight an enemy on even-footing, or even give an enemy any real chance to retaliate. The only battles they want to fight are the ones that they have all but guaranteed they are going to win, and win overwhelmingly, preferably through use of sabotage, terror, ambush and whatever underhanded trick they can imagine. A legion of honorable warriors, the Night Lords certainly are not.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: They are, at heart, cowards. They don't want to fight an enemy on even-footing, or even give an enemy any real chance to retaliate. The only battles they want to fight are the ones that they have all but guaranteed they are going to win, and win overwhelmingly, preferably through use of sabotage, terror, ambush and whatever underhanded trick they can imagine. A legion of honorable warriors, the Night Lords certainly are not.
What competent general ever wants to fight an enemy on an even footing or give them a chance to retaliate? I'm no military historian but I'll go out on a limb and say that the majority of wars have been won because one side had an advantage over the other. Does that make the majority of victors cowards?
What competent general ever wants to fight an enemy on an even footing or give them a chance to retaliate? I'm no military historian but I'll go out on a limb and say that the majority of wars have been won because one side had an advantage over the other. Does that make the majority of victors cowards?
The Night Lords would prefer to first rape and murder your civilian population. Then poison your water supply. And then infect your troops with Space-AIDS.
Then they capture the medical relief and replace the meds with more poisons.
We, in the modern world, have a dozen or more treaties that expressly forbid all of the above, and most civilized countries on the planet adhere to them.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
What competent general ever wants to fight an enemy on an even footing or give them a chance to retaliate? I'm no military historian but I'll go out on a limb and say that the majority of wars have been won because one side had an advantage over the other. Does that make the majority of victors cowards?
The Night Lords would prefer to first rape and murder your civilian population. Then poison your water supply. And then infect your troops with Space-AIDS.
Then they capture the medical relief and replace the meds with more poisons.
We, in the modern world, have a dozen or more treaties that expressly forbid all of the above, and most civilized countries on the planet adhere to them.
That's funny because the last major open conflict between great powers saw the wholesale bombing of civilian populations with the express purpose of causing as many civilian casualties as possible. Because when the chips are down the treaties all go out the window.
Ailaros wrote: Yup, Braveheart was a movie, therefore freedom is a terrible thing.
/headdesk
One, William Wallace, in the film, represented a very-limited form of freedom. Freedom from an external nation ruling over an indigenous people. Not unlimited personal freedom to do whatever the feth you wanted.
Two, what "freedom" the Night Lords represent is "free to do whatever you want, until some stronger thing comes along, has its way with you, and leaves you broken and bleeding in the ruins of your own flesh, for the lulz"
Three, the Night Lords aren't freedom fighters. They're not trying to take down the Imperium. They know that is an impossible goal, especially since they fell apart into scattered warbands throughout the Eye of Terror since the death of Curze. They also don't give a feth about it. There is no unifying cause, creed or agenda for the Night Lords, apart from plunder and piracy. They exist only to fulfill their own selfish desires for loot, bloodshed, power, and entirely crushing an enemy.... preferably before the battle even starts. They are, at heart, cowards. They don't want to fight an enemy on even-footing, or even give an enemy any real chance to retaliate. The only battles they want to fight are the ones that they have all but guaranteed they are going to win, and win overwhelmingly, preferably through use of sabotage, terror, ambush and whatever underhanded trick they can imagine. A legion of honorable warriors, the Night Lords certainly are not.
Anyone else get a massive sense of deja vu from this post?
What competent general ever wants to fight an enemy on an even footing or give them a chance to retaliate? I'm no military historian but I'll go out on a limb and say that the majority of wars have been won because one side had an advantage over the other. Does that make the majority of victors cowards?
The Night Lords would prefer to first rape and murder your civilian population. Then poison your water supply. And then infect your troops with Space-AIDS.
Then they capture the medical relief and replace the meds with more poisons.
We, in the modern world, have a dozen or more treaties that expressly forbid all of the above, and most civilized countries on the planet adhere to them.
and most non state entities do not. The night lord's arent a country. They never claimed to be.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
Which brings me back to my original point. They're cowards.They focus their attention on civilian targets, the unarmed, individuals who aren't even aware that they're at war with anyone yet. They're pirates and raiders, much like the Dark Eldar, striking the undefended, grabbing the loot, and then withdrawing before any serious resistance can be raised against them.
There is absolutely nothing redeemable about the Night Lords.
That's funny because the last major open conflict between great powers saw the wholesale bombing of civilian populations with the express purpose of causing as many civilian casualties as possible. Because when the chips are down the treaties all go out the window.
That was the war that created the treaties I mentioned.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: Which brings me back to my original point. They're cowards.They focus their attention on civilian targets, the unarmed, individuals who aren't even aware that they're at war with anyone yet. They're pirates and raiders, much like the Dark Eldar, striking the undefended, grabbing the loot, and then withdrawing before any serious resistance can be raised against them.
There is absolutely nothing redeemable about the Night Lords.
What is redeeming is that they aren't hipocrits. You think the IoM always opperates in a honorable way. Never kills innocent civilians, never attacks the softer support areas, never wages war against a force that isnt their equal?
All factions in 40k fight battles that suit them and commit war crimes. The night lords are just honest about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/17 17:55:09
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
You think the IoM always opperates in a honorable way. Never kills innocent civilians, never attacks the softer support areas, never wages war against a force that isnt their equal?
Citation needed.
What is redeeming is that they aren't hipocrits.
Or they are. The NL are not a unified Legion. They're a scattering of small groups, warbands, brigands and even solo operatives. Nothing can be said about them that applies to all of them other than they primarily look out for #1 first and foremost, above all else.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
"Not being a hypocrite" isn't a redeeming feature. What it IS is a "lack of a horrible/donkey-cave/evil feature"
Just because you are something that's NOT evil doesn't mean your good. A rock isn't a hypocrite either but I wouldn't particularly call that a redeeming feature of rocks.
Saying "At least they're not hypocrites" is the equivalent of saying "Well, at least they don't smell like monkey vomit" or "at least they aren't child molestors" or "at least they aren't chaos spawn". I wouldn't call either of those "redeeming features" either, myself. Instead, they're merely a "lack of being something awful"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/17 20:50:49
Corbulo is practicaly Jesus with a chainsword 