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Mavlun,
Given that there is no instructions for working out the Unit Type of an entire Unit....

And all this is exactly why I think Necrons are the overlooked chariot and that RAI is clear from the other Chariots.

 Mavlun wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Hits aren't allocated. Wounds are. Changing the rules to suit your combo is cheating. Put a CCB in a unit and you still get wounded on majority T you get no LoS and your Lord takes the wounds. My advice tactically is to not put a CCB with a unit as it makes it much easier to kill. But if you want to do it you have to accept the consequences.

Per the chariot rules, I choose the profile that receives the hits and wounds when its being shot at. If I choose chariot, all those wounds will bounce off the chariot profile. It's perfectly legal to allocate wounds to a vehicle, it just gets nullified.

The rule you're referring to starts with "When shooting at a chariot unit". If it's attached to another unit, that's no longer a "chariot unit". Therefore, the allocating rule cannot be invoked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Hits aren't allocated. Wounds are. Changing the rules to suit your combo is cheating. Put a CCB in a unit and you still get wounded on majority T you get no LoS and your Lord takes the wounds. My advice tactically is to not put a CCB with a unit as it makes it much easier to kill. But if you want to do it you have to accept the consequences.

Per the chariot rules, I choose the profile that receives the hits and wounds when its being shot at. If I choose chariot, all those wounds will bounce off the chariot profile. It's perfectly legal to allocate wounds to a vehicle, it just gets nullified.

However, that's dumb. So you follow a one hit at a time methodology of resolving the situation.

which you can't do while in a unit

Yes you can, but it has to be a "chariot unit" as per the rules

I see what you guys are saying.

One issue is that if we follow this line of thinking, then don't we get to the point that in CC the attacker cannot effectively damage the vehicle profile (the attacker chooses which profile he is attacking and if he chooses vehicle then wounds will bounce off the hull)?

JinxDragon wrote:
Mavlun,
Given that there is no instructions for working out the Unit Type of an entire Unit....

We're given the hint in the beginning of the Chariot text:

"A chariot is an unusual unit, with a dual profile"

Mavlun,
The word Unit, when found in a Rule discussing a Unit Type, does not relate to a collection of Models like one would expect. Instead, it is in direct reference to a single Model with the Unit Type being discussed. This was one of the first teething I did in Rule debating, explaining why a Restriction that discusses 'Jump Units' or 'Chariot Units' either does absolutely nothing or it must relate to a Model with the correct Unit Type. Lot of that was based around the very simple fact we have no instructions telling us how to determine anything more then an individual Model's Unit Type but some of it was based off how impossible it would be to apply these Rules, even in the vacuum they where written, if they where discussing a whole Unit.

Sadly, not only is the inability to keep their own terminology straight a long standing joke with Game Workshop but it is one that they seem quite proud of.
After all, why continue to call it a 'Unit Type' when it has been a value found on a Models profile for multiple editions now?

Oh, and the Rule you posted is an example of a section that does not make sense when applied to the concept that an "X Unit" means a Unit of: If Chariot Units have a single duel profile then any Unit lacking this Profile, or with more then this Profile, can not be defined as a Chariot Unit. As there exists Chariots without Riders, with only have a single Profile, as well as Squadrons that will have a duel profiles for each Model and the ever present and all confusing 'Mixed Unit' that will allow non-duel profiles to mix....

Well... all these things must not be Chariots Units, correct?

JinxDragon wrote:


Oh, and the Rule you posted is an example of a section that does not make sense when applied to the concept that an "X Unit" means a Unit of: If Chariot Units have a single duel profile then any Unit lacking this Profile, or with more then this Profile, can not be defined as a Chariot Unit. As there exists Chariots without Riders, with only have a single Profile, as well as Squadrons that will have a duel profiles for each Model and the ever present and all confusing 'Mixed Unit' that will allow non-duel profiles to mix....

Well... all these things must not be Chariots Units, correct?

Riderless chariots are a thing, and even without a rider, qualify as chariots, they're mentioned in the Chariot entry.

It should also be noted that the rule states:

"The player controlling the Chariot unit then allocates each hit pool either to the rider or the Chariot of the closest model in the unit."

This leads me to believe (yes, assumption), that the phrase "chariot unit" refers either to a unit made up entirely of one single chariot model, or chariot squadrons, such as the Chaos ones.

pg 166 independent character "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

pg 9 Forming a unit, Units "warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections or similarly named groups - individuals do not normally go wandering off on their own on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium for obvious reasons!..."

unless I am misunderstanding (and if i am please clear it up for me) that if an IC joins a unit he becomes part of that unit for all rules purposes.

If you shoot at a warrior unit with a CCB in it you are still just shooting/rolling to hit/rolling to wound at the necron warrior unit whithe CCB is part of but is still part of the warrior unit.

I kinda see it just like the work arounds for "hitting" an invisiable unit. You targeting one unit nearby with a blast (or normal shooting in this case) and it scatters onto the invisible unit causing hits that way (or in this context you are not targeting a chariot unit to fire at you are targeting the warrior unit). Because the shooting at chariots first sentence says "When shooting at a Chariot uni, ...." If you aren't shooting that a chariot unit, (but in fact a warrior unit) you don't use the rule. Correct? If not cone someone please explain why?

Oberron wrote:
pg 166 independent character "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

pg 9 Forming a unit, Units "warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections or similarly named groups - individuals do not normally go wandering off on their own on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium for obvious reasons!..."

unless I am misunderstanding (and if i am please clear it up for me) that if an IC joins a unit he becomes part of that unit for all rules purposes.

If you shoot at a warrior unit with a CCB in it you are still just shooting/rolling to hit/rolling to wound at the necron warrior unit whithe CCB is part of but is still part of the warrior unit.

I kinda see it just like the work arounds for "hitting" an invisiable unit. You targeting one unit nearby with a blast (or normal shooting in this case) and it scatters onto the invisible unit causing hits that way (or in this context you are not targeting a chariot unit to fire at you are targeting the warrior unit). Because the shooting at chariots first sentence says "When shooting at a Chariot uni, ...." If you aren't shooting that a chariot unit, (but in fact a warrior unit) you don't use the rule. Correct? If not cone someone please explain why?

Yes that is correct. Putting a CCB in a unit is a bad idea.

 FlingitNow wrote:


Yes that is correct. Putting a CCB in a unit is a bad idea.

There are still some tactical avenues.

If I understand it correctly, attaching a CCB to a unit makes the vehicle profile totally inaccessible in shooting and CC which can make certain matchups better (going up against armourbane CC or haywire CC).

Also, if the CCB has phaeron he can still move 12" and join a unit that has deep striked in with heavy weapons (sentry pylons or beamer wraiths) to enable them to fire off the turn they deep strike in.

Further, a CCB that has a res orb can have a pretty decent reanimating meatshield with jump praetorians, jump destroyers, or tomb blades. He can also run in to join a blob of warriors or immortals that is under fire to boost their RP. He boosts RP and gives fearless to any unit he joins even if he trades in invulnerability to small arms fire.

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


Yes that is correct. Putting a CCB in a unit is a bad idea.

There are still some tactical avenues.

If I understand it correctly, attaching a CCB to a unit makes the vehicle profile totally inaccessible in shooting and CC which can make certain matchups better (going up against armourbane CC or haywire CC).

Also, if the CCB has phaeron he can still move 12" and join a unit that has deep striked in with heavy weapons (sentry pylons or beamer wraiths) to enable them to fire off the turn they deep strike in.

Further, a CCB that has a res orb can have a pretty decent reanimating meatshield with jump praetorians, jump destroyers, or tomb blades. He can also run in to join a blob of warriors or immortals that is under fire to boost their RP. He boosts RP and gives fearless to any unit he joins even if he trades in invulnerability to small arms fire.

Most of those are minorly situational. But how does he give Fearless to something ?

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


Yes that is correct. Putting a CCB in a unit is a bad idea.

There are still some tactical avenues.

If I understand it correctly, attaching a CCB to a unit makes the vehicle profile totally inaccessible in shooting and CC which can make certain matchups better (going up against armourbane CC or haywire CC).

Also, if the CCB has phaeron he can still move 12" and join a unit that has deep striked in with heavy weapons (sentry pylons or beamer wraiths) to enable them to fire off the turn they deep strike in.

Further, a CCB that has a res orb can have a pretty decent reanimating meatshield with jump praetorians, jump destroyers, or tomb blades. He can also run in to join a blob of warriors or immortals that is under fire to boost their RP. He boosts RP and gives fearless to any unit he joins even if he trades in invulnerability to small arms fire.

Most of those are minorly situational. But how does he give Fearless to something ?

Moreover, it seems to be super fluffy and logical that a unit that is joined by a chariot gains fearless. What more could you ask for than RAW, RAI, and fluffy-approved.

Missed the Chariot giving Fearless to the Overlord. Interesting to know.

The Chariot is a vehicle, it has two profiles. You can't ignore one and join a unit. Vehicles cannot join units. The only "unit" of vehicles are squadrons which are purchased as such.

Also, having the bargeLord join a unit in the same turn that unit is assaulting is tactically solid.

Sure, you don't get Look Out Sir but you still get to allocate wounds as the controlling player to any models in b2b contact. So joining a unit of wraiths or scarabs or (now fearless and 4++ reanimating) immortals or warriors in for an assault on a WK gives you a nice ablative meatshield versus the ID attacks of the WK. You also get the minor buff that the WK can't access your vehicle profile which is a little bit more vulnerable than the rider profile to a WK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whacked wrote:
The Chariot is a vehicle, it has two profiles. You can't ignore one and join a unit. Vehicles cannot join units. The only "unit" of vehicles are squadrons which are purchased as such.

Independent Characters can't join vehicles. They can join units. There is nothing in the rules prohibiting a Vehicle that is an Independent Character from joining a unit.

col_impact wrote:


Also, having the bargeLord join a unit in the same turn that unit is assaulting is tactically solid.

Sure, you don't get Look Out Sir but you still get to allocate wounds as the controlling player to any models in b2b contact. So joining a unit of wraiths or scarabs or (now fearless and 4++ reanimating) immortals or warriors in for an assault on a WK gives you a nice ablative meatshield versus the ID attacks of the WK. You also get the minor buff that the WK can't access your vehicle profile which is a little bit more vulnerable than the rider profile to a WK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whacked wrote:
The Chariot is a vehicle, it has two profiles. You can't ignore one and join a unit. Vehicles cannot join units. The only "unit" of vehicles are squadrons which are purchased as such.

Independent Characters can't join vehicles. They can join units. There is nothing in the rules prohibiting a Vehicle that is an Independent Character from joining a unit.

So is there a rule that says vehicles can join other vehicles in a unit, or is it just because they have independent character that they can join a unit as long as it's not an IC/MC

Whacked wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Also, having the bargeLord join a unit in the same turn that unit is assaulting is tactically solid.

Sure, you don't get Look Out Sir but you still get to allocate wounds as the controlling player to any models in b2b contact. So joining a unit of wraiths or scarabs or (now fearless and 4++ reanimating) immortals or warriors in for an assault on a WK gives you a nice ablative meatshield versus the ID attacks of the WK. You also get the minor buff that the WK can't access your vehicle profile which is a little bit more vulnerable than the rider profile to a WK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whacked wrote:
The Chariot is a vehicle, it has two profiles. You can't ignore one and join a unit. Vehicles cannot join units. The only "unit" of vehicles are squadrons which are purchased as such.

Independent Characters can't join vehicles. They can join units. There is nothing in the rules prohibiting a Vehicle that is an Independent Character from joining a unit.

So is there a rule that says vehicles can join other vehicles in a unit, or is it just because they have independent character that they can join a unit as long as it's not an IC/MC

col_impact wrote:

Whacked wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Also, having the bargeLord join a unit in the same turn that unit is assaulting is tactically solid.

Sure, you don't get Look Out Sir but you still get to allocate wounds as the controlling player to any models in b2b contact. So joining a unit of wraiths or scarabs or (now fearless and 4++ reanimating) immortals or warriors in for an assault on a WK gives you a nice ablative meatshield versus the ID attacks of the WK. You also get the minor buff that the WK can't access your vehicle profile which is a little bit more vulnerable than the rider profile to a WK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whacked wrote:
The Chariot is a vehicle, it has two profiles. You can't ignore one and join a unit. Vehicles cannot join units. The only "unit" of vehicles are squadrons which are purchased as such.

Independent Characters can't join vehicles. They can join units. There is nothing in the rules prohibiting a Vehicle that is an Independent Character from joining a unit.

So is there a rule that says vehicles can join other vehicles in a unit, or is it just because they have independent character that they can join a unit as long as it's not an IC/MC

Spoiler:

INDEPENDENT CHARACTER
Mighty heroes go where they are needed, charging at the forefront of the most vital charges and leading their troops to victory. Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join units that contain vehicles or Monstrous Creatures. They can join other Independent Characters, though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!

While I miswrote IC/MC and meant Vehicle/MC you still didn't answer the question. Is there a rule that explicitly gives the vehicle profile the ability to join a unit? This is the only real counter argument that would prevent the model/unit from joining a unit of say wraiths or destroyers. I'm all for this working - I play necrons regularly.

Your question has been answered on page one of this thread already.

@whacked

The IC rule gives the whole model (raider and chariot profile) the ability to join other units.

Yes you can join just remember that you lose the ability to assign hits so you are wounded on majority toughness. In effect the Chariot profile disappears whilst joined.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes you can join just remember that you lose the ability to assign hits so you are wounded on majority toughness. In effect the Chariot profile disappears whilst joined.

This is correct. This is almost always a bad thing for the Chariot. However, there are corner cases where this can be beneficial (such as going into CC with Tankbustas).