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squidhills wrote:
Everything else died, because nobody's armor was as good as it was supposed to be.

That's one way to look at it.

The other way is that everyone's armour was exactly as good as it was supposed to be, because it was designed to factor in the modifiers.

IG and Orks wouldn't get a save at all,...

Against most armies, they don't get a save now, so no real difference there.


The main reasons characters were so survivable in 2nd edition were a) the easy access to invulnerable saves for pretty much everyone and b) the shooting rules requiring you to target the closest unit making it really easy to keep your characters safe from enemy shooting. Unless they had the 'Assassins' mission... The jacked up stats compared to basic troops helped somewhat as well.

Armour Save Modifiers had little to do with it,

Yeah, having WS7 S5 T5 W4 I7 Chief Librarians and T5 I7 Canoness' certainly made characters a lot harder to put down

Fluff : no Nob worth his power klaw would ever refuse a challenge.

Game : in most challenges Nobs die before they even swing and ork players do their best to avoid challenges.

- Models can Look out Sir against Lasers... how? I don't care how good your reflexes are, by the time you've seen the threat, it's most definitely too late.

- Units that stop to fight can move about twice as far as units that run.

- When a unit of Guardsmen is charged by a Wraithknight, everyone in the unit immediately rushes forwards to try and skewer it with bayonets.

- In the above scenario, other units are unable to shoot the Wraithknight, for fear of hitting the guardsmen who come up to its ankles. I refuse to believe that their aim is *that* bad.

- A Commissar will shoot his own men at the slightest provocation, but won't allow anyone to shoot into a doomed combat. Surely he'd just order the execution of the guardsmen involved, for the crime of 'obscuring his weapons' or something.

- What exactly is it about vehicles that prevents units from assaulting out of them - even when they remained stationary? And, for that matter, what makes assault vehicles so damn special in that regard?

- Why is speed represented by snapshots when it comes to fliers, whilst everything else gets a cover save for moving fast?

- Also, with regard to fliers, how high are they? They're implied to be travelling very high, yet this apparently has no effect on the range of weapons shooting at them. Even pistols can apparently fire normally at fliers... so they can't be that high. And, if it's just speed, then why don't they use the existing speed mechanic (i.e. cover saves). It can't be because they travel faster than other units, because Jetbikes can flat out 36", yet still receive no snap-shot mechanic. Likewise, why can't a flying MC charge a flier? If it's the speed aspect, then I'll once again bring you back to jetbikes - which can be charged normally regardless of how fast they're moving.

 vipoid wrote:
- Models can Look out Sir against Lasers... how? I don't care how good your reflexes are, by the time you've seen the threat, it's most definitely too late.

- Units that stop to fight can move about twice as far as units that run.

This has always been bonkers to me, the imagery of dudes on bikes running into combat and then sitting in a melee is insane, they'd be absurdly easy to engage if they're sitting on their bikes stationary or even only moving slightly (e.g. in circles). If anything, they'd roll through a unit, running over people and slashing with CC weapons and then keep on going straight through. That said, there's also a reason nobody uses bikes as combat vehicles in the modern world

You guys need some more imagination Look out sir can be that the guys already anticipate some unit targeting their leader, maybe intelligence briefed them. And due to this they constantly move in front of him etc.

With the bikes in cc I imagine it indeed like sort of a cavalry attack. If the non-bikers have the higher I they try to hit the approaching bikers, if they have lower I they try to hit them in the back when they pass. Or they throw caltrops to the ground or whatever. The game rules abstract things. If one has not enough imagination to find suitable explanations I feel sad for him. Try playing some RPGs (not on the computer...) it helps a lot with creating enjoyable stories with others.

Abstraction only goes so far, especially with multi-round combat. Bikes have no business being involved in combat for multiple rounds, at least not as substantial penalty if they're remaining sitting on those bikes

The inability to shoot into CC. "We're the IG. We'll happily sacrifice a million men to a suicide mission. Unless there's a single Guardsmen getting eaten by a swarm of Tyranids. Then his life is sacred."

 Jimsolo wrote:
The inability to shoot into CC. "We're the IG. We'll happily sacrifice a million men to a suicide mission. Unless there's a single Guardsmen getting eaten by a swarm of Tyranids. Then his life is sacred."

Yeah, I think armies like AM, Orks, maybe even Tyranids, should be able to fire into combat with certain units. Like, if it's a veteran squad, maybe not. But a blob of regular guardsmen, a blob of Boyz, or a blob of Hormagaunts? Why not light'em up?

The other aspect is that sometimes firing into combat is still going to be the best chance of saving those men.

I mean, if a squad of veterans are fighting a horde of Meganobz, they're just not going to win. They're going to suffer a unpleasant and messy death. Surely it's better to shoot into combat and give them a chance, then let them get slaughtered by a stronger enemy?

Hell, getting shot in the back by a lasgun is still probably a kindness, compared to the death they'd likely suffer otherwise.

 Murenius wrote:
You guys need some more imagination Look out sir can be that the guys already anticipate some unit targeting their leader, maybe intelligence briefed them. And due to this they constantly move in front of him

Sure. Until it turns into that one guy jumping in front of him 47 times in one round of shooting... at which point, it's just getting a wee bit silly.

 vipoid wrote:
- Models can Look out Sir against Lasers... how? I don't care how good your reflexes are, by the time you've seen the threat, it's most definitely too late.

Unless you are Custodes.

In a similar vein, the sicaran autocannon's high velocity shots are so fast that they ignore jink saves, yet lascannons do not.

Coteaz and his squad firing at multiple squads with interceptor, and then firing normally in their turn. In a turn based game what they pull off in a single turn would be similar to something out of the matrix.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
In a similar vein, the sicaran autocannon's high velocity shots are so fast that they ignore jink saves, yet lascannons do not.

Even funnier, in March of this year, the Hydra's autocannons did too, then in April, its Autocannons broke

 gwarsh41 wrote:
[Here is how you should think of this. Lets say a leman russ just fired at some marines in a forest. Leman russ gets a direct hit, 7 wounds are caused. Marines make 4 cover saves.
You then go, "Psh, because a tree can withstand the blast of this tank and save the marine?"
Wrong line of thinking.

We roll for aim, the aim hits - but if the models on the table don't represent their actual position, then why have models there in the first place and not just have a single token with a number on it denoting what's there?

 gwarsh41 wrote:
[Tank commander is told to aim at those trees, marines have been spotted in them. Tank commander fires at the trees, then sees some marines go flying in the explosion. Maybe he hit the right spot, maybe he didn't. The scatter dice just showed that his aim was true, his choice of where to shoot was obscured by the cover.

I see and appreciate this line of thinking - but I'm referring to a massive pie-plate over a squad in the middle of nowhere. There is nowhere they can hide. No trees, no terrain. It's just dark.

Similar situation, an Eldar Phantom Titan rolls on the explodes table. All the troops around it are out in the open and are hit by the Apocalyptic pie-plate of Nuke-all. They get a cover save because it's night fighting - not because of any physical cover. It's like a nuclear bomb has just detonated and some guy in the field is chuckling to himself because he chose to wear camo-cream or it's night time.


This is just one irritation from Apocalypse matches.

Space Marines. They don't feel like space marines. They feel like expensive cannon fodder. I'm not asking for every trooper to be a 2nd edition hero, but I'd want them to be good and not a necessary tax.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Space Marines. They don't feel like space marines. They feel like expensive cannon fodder. I'm not asking for every trooper to be a 2nd edition hero, but I'd want them to be good and not a necessary tax.

The problem is that the game has escalated drastically, without any regard for basic infantry. Or, for that matter good rule writing, game balance etc.

So, we have an issue whereby most troops are just useless because even light transports are immune to their weapons, and most MCs are virtually immune (and, naturally, there are no mechanics to even the odds in any way). So, you can either max out on special weapons (and have about 90% of the squad be no more than meat shields for the guy with the special weapon), or take as few infantry as possible and instead max out on vehicles and/or MCs - which generally have the high-calibre weapons required to take on other MCs and vehicles. This, of course, leads to infantry becoming even worse because there are fewer infantry around and hence even fewer targets for their basic weapons.

I think troops being the only units that could score certainly helped, but I don't think that's enough to save them at the moment (after all, scoring doesn't matter when your infantry have been vaporised).

The problem is that 40k is trying to be too many things at once and, with its awful rules and balance, is failing at all of them. There just shouldn't be situations where Space Marines are running into battles with super-heavy tanks or monsters. In fact, I'd like to quote some 'Advice for the Starship Captain':

"I will not throw infantry into close-quarter combat with creatures of leviathan stature, but shall turn such affairs over to the artillery crew."

Why does a unit lose it charge bonuses when it assault two units of 10 but not when it assault one unit of fifty (even if the the one unit is more spread out than the two units)?

Why can a heavy weapon user model choose to not move and still fire for full effect even when the rest of the unit moves, but everyone in a unit must run?

Why does a open top vehicle gets its crew killed when hit with a flamer, but not the one with 6 fire ports (f anything, being trapped in a closed top vehicle after napalm has gotten in is usually a death trap)

Why can an infiltrating or outflanking unit shoot on the turn it comes in, but not assault?

And for those talking about shooting units reacting to assault: Shooting units DID react to assault units before overwatch was brought back: it's called your shooting phase. Each player's turn is meant to represent a simultaneous time frame, and the UGOIGO structure is purely a game construct. If anything, the overwatch is the inconsistency, because it creates an exception to the normal turn structure

Bolters. Basically machine guns firing mini rockets, but they almost never wound anything stronger than a lowly Guardsman or an Ork.

-Edited by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1-

Against MCs 20 bolter shots will hit with 13, wound with 2, so depending on the save that will probably be 1W. One battle cannon will not do more. People always assume a vacuum in which units meet, but the reality on the table looks differently, mostly. A unit is not only good if it can insta death something.

Also I consider 40k a framework of rules, if you don't have fun with it, add house rules. Or play another game. But sitting around complaining, waiting for daddy GW to fix everything you don't like will probably not lead to an enjoyable hobby for you.

I feel like the solution to most scale problems is to just play games in the correct range. We have 25-30 regulars at my club and the biggest thing there is a wraithknight. There are no IKs, no Superheavy Ctans, no titans, and troops do just fine. The 1500-2000 range is how GWs flimsy rules suck the least, so play in that range for the best time and don't bring the stupid 750 point models that you exchange six smaller units for. They change your decision making from "okay where do I move with all these guys, how can I get cover, what should my special weapons target, can I get an assault" into "hurr durr what shood mah giant kills anything cannon shoot this turn ? This game so much more epic with 3 models on the table!"

the_scotsman wrote:
They change your decision making from "okay where do I move with all these guys, how can I get cover, what should my special weapons target, can I get an assault" into "hurr durr what shood mah giant kills anything cannon shoot this turn ? This game so much more epic with 3 models on the table!"

Lol. Well put, sir.

Getting a Look Out Sir! roll for a Precision Shot is something I call a major league BS. The LoS DISCOURAGES me to try that chance.

Refusing a challenge means that your Ghazhkull - THE villain of Armageddon - curls into a small, sorry ball behind his boyz, crying and cowering: "I dontz wanna foight..."
Unless the opponent's character is something that you might even have a chance of winning the duel with your dude, accepting the challenge is also a bad choice, since nowadays your character can't work as a massive wound-shield for the rest of the crew, as in 7th edition, the rest of the wounds are spread to the last remaining unit in close combat. The challenges, at least since from the sixth edition, have been a double-lose scenario. When they're not fair, I despise and detest that feature (and almost never they are).

Oh yeah! What about those who have that nasty special rule that FORCES them to issue challenges whenever they can?
It sounds badass on the paper, but is something else in the table. I feel sorry for that Emperor's Champion who MUST challenge the Swarmlord...

GW is sorry and incompetent when it comes to writing codices and rules. While there are hits, they are followed by the misses - threefold.

 Tigramans wrote:
Getting a Look Out Sir! roll for a Precision Shot is something I call a major league BS. The LoS DISCOURAGES me to try that chance.

Whilst I agree that getting LoS on precision shots is silly, I can also understand it for balance purposes - since it seems like more fragile HQs would suffer considerably otherwise.

But then, I think the current wound allocation system is just a huge mess.

 Tigramans wrote:

Refusing a challenge means that your Ghazhkull - THE villain of Armageddon - curls into a small, sorry ball behind his boyz, crying and cowering: "I dontz wanna foight..."

Yeah, I really dislike that challenges were introduced to 40k.

 Tigramans wrote:

Oh yeah! What about those who have that nasty special rule that FORCES them to issue challenges whenever they can?
It sounds badass on the paper, but is something else in the table. I feel sorry for that Emperor's Champion who MUST challenge the Swarmlord...

I'm more interested in how he conveys his desire for a challenge to a creature that can't speak and which had no concept of honour.

 Tigramans wrote:

GW is sorry and incompetent when it comes to writing codices and rules. While there are hits, they are followed by the misses - threefold.

I think the problem is that there's far too much stuff that goes completely against the fluff. You have stuff like Wyches supposedly being deadly in combat, yet on the table they're utterly pathetic. Or, Lictors jumping out of hiding and then obligingly giving the enemy ample opportunity to shoot them, before actually attacking.

Or, in terms of general rules, you have stuff like Objective Secured - which might make sense for some armies, but really doesn't for others. Why are tyranid troops (most of which being utterly expendable) better at capturing objectives than virtually all the important, controlling organisms? Is there a reason SM recruits are better at the job than the elite veterans who are supposedly tasked with that exact role in the fluff? And, for that matter, why does the contents of a transport dictate how good that transport is at capturing objectives even when said transport is empty? Hell, how does a drop pod capture an objective at all?

It just seems like, for a company that endlessly bangs on about FORGING THE NARRATIVE!!!, its rules are almost anti-narrative.

It wouldn't necessarily be better for the game, but I HATE the fact that cover, armor, and invulnerable saves aren't cumulative.

The marine in a trench is just as easy to hurt as the one standing without cover. The trench doesn't do ANYTHING for him unless you shoot a plasma gun at him. The ork bullets and the lasgun shots just go right through the dirt and bounce (hopefully) off his armor.

The Chaplain with a Rosarius is just as vulnerable as the Imperial Preacher to lascannons and plasmaguns. The massive ceramite armor he wears provides NO extra protection than the Preacher's flak armor to those weapons.

I know that it would slow down the game to have multiple saves (although we already do, with Jink and Feel No Pain), but it always grates on me that you only take the best of armor, cover, or invulnerable. A Chaplain crouched in a trench should be harder to kill than one running like a loon across an open field.

Da Butcha wrote:
It wouldn't necessarily be better for the game, but I HATE the fact that cover, armor, and invulnerable saves aren't cumulative.

The marine in a trench is just as easy to hurt as the one standing without cover. The trench doesn't do ANYTHING for him unless you shoot a plasma gun at him. The ork bullets and the lasgun shots just go right through the dirt and bounce (hopefully) off his armor.

The Chaplain with a Rosarius is just as vulnerable as the Imperial Preacher to lascannons and plasmaguns. The massive ceramite armor he wears provides NO extra protection than the Preacher's flak armor to those weapons.

I know that it would slow down the game to have multiple saves (although we already do, with Jink and Feel No Pain), but it always grates on me that you only take the best of armor, cover, or invulnerable. A Chaplain crouched in a trench should be harder to kill than one running like a loon across an open field.

Eh, I can forgive this. It makes the game faster and adds a value to low AP, which is neat. Plus, it's not that hard to imagine that a beakie would know that sluggas (probably) aren't going to hurt him, but he'll duck into cover when he spots a lascannon or plasmagun.

the_scotsman wrote:
But on topic, WHY IS A RIPTIDE A MONSTROUS FRIGGIN CREATURE.

Walker: a walking vehicle with a separate, human-sized pilot. Since the crew is susceptible to shaking, stunning etc, it uses the vehicle damage rules. However, they are designed to be weapons platforms and generally mount more potent weaponry while MC's make greater use of their natural weaponry.

Monstrous Creature: a large entity that is itself a conscious being and has no separate crew. E.G Carnifexes, C'tan, and Wraithlords who are souls of dead Eldar plugged into huge new bodies WHICH IS DIFFERENT than Eldar War Walkers who are piloted. Piloted=Walker. Huge unpiloted monster=MC.

Riptides have pilots. Therefore they should be WALKERS. Same with Dreadknights from the GK codex.

If they were walkers they might actually be balanced and then GW wouldn't have sold so many riptides. This model is a classic example of writing rules to sell models with complete disregard for balance to the game or adherence to fluff.

Da Butcha wrote:
It wouldn't necessarily be better for the game, but I HATE the fact that cover, armor, and invulnerable saves aren't cumulative.

The marine in a trench is just as easy to hurt as the one standing without cover. The trench doesn't do ANYTHING for him unless you shoot a plasma gun at him. The ork bullets and the lasgun shots just go right through the dirt and bounce (hopefully) off his armor.

Oh....my God. Yes! I thought the same thing! Hence why I got into Fantasy as well as 40k. Cover actually makes sense.

 vipoid wrote:
It just seems like, for a company that endlessly bangs on about FORGING THE NARRATIVE!!!, its rules are almost anti-narrative.

My thoughts precisely.
How am I supposed to forge a nice narrative with interesting custom scenarios and get inside the table with an immersion, when there's ALWAYS the oddities of the crunch ruining your experience?
I'll just let my anger towards GW be vented elsewhere, since it's like snorting the ashes of the horse, which got cremated a decade ago, and beaten TWO decades ago while it was already dead.

Nothing breaks immersion or a "narrative" like a skimmer jinking when it's immobilized