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This actually isn't a problem that has much to do with gender, though, but rather AAA games being very poorly written in general.

Sigvatr wrote:This actually isn't a problem that has much to do with gender, though, but rather AAA games being very poorly written in general.

I dunno ... it could just be coincidence based on the scarcity of big budget games with female characters, but from looking at the ones we have, I do get the impression that they are generally more thought out.

It's probably more a case of devs who want to focus on mindless action being more prone towards going for the default white male cliché, rather than said cliché simultaneously also being a guarantee for bad story, though.

It is usually a pretty good indicator though.

 Lynata wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:This actually isn't a problem that has much to do with gender, though, but rather AAA games being very poorly written in general.

I dunno ... it could just be coincidence based on the scarcity of big budget games with female characters, but from looking at the ones we have, I do get the impression that they are generally more thought out.

It's probably more a case of devs who want to focus on mindless action being more prone towards going for the default white male cliché, rather than said cliché simultaneously also being a guarantee for bad story, though.

It seem that most games that include a female character put focus on the character. They make a big deal of them. If they don't care about the character or the character is unimportant then they will make them male. (They don't leave then undefined or blank though and I kind of think they should.)

I think some of the baldness is intentional. That is they intentionally make the character bland in order to be inoffensive and some thing something immersion.

None that can't be more broadly generalized into issues with games characters as a whole. For the most part male characters get a wide variety of interesting character designs, narrative and mechanical roles, they're freely slotted into just about any archetype. On the whole I'd say the state of "Men" in gaming is about as good as any class of persons gets in gaming.

I know I can not properly explain this complaint, but I believe that games kind of butcher the idea of masculinity. Games tend to be very masculine, but it's a very malformed form that is immature and hollow... Ya I kind of can't explain it too well, but maybe someone else knows and can explain it better.

nomotog wrote:
I know I can not properly explain this complaint, but I believe that games kind of butcher the idea of masculinity. Games tend to be very masculine, but it's a very malformed form that is immature and hollow... Ya I kind of can't explain it too well, but maybe someone else knows and can explain it better.

I think I get what you're saying. The depiction of "masculinity" in video games posits that to be "masculine" must mean that you're a) steroid-junkie huge, b) have absolutely zero moral qualms with killing a huge number of probably-intelligent beings, c) display no emotions other than rage or lust, d) tend to solve problems by shooting them.

Which, frankly, is all entirely juvenile male power-fantasies. They don't make male characters huge and muscle-bound for female gamers, it's not eyecandy for them, it's eyecandy for the (ostensibly) male player, because the image is a male power fantasy.

 Psienesis wrote:
The depiction of "masculinity" in video games posits that to be "masculine" must mean that you're a) steroid-junkie huge, b) have absolutely zero moral qualms with killing a huge number of probably-intelligent beings, c) display no emotions other than rage or lust, d) tend to solve problems by shooting them.

Except for the a), Bastion in a nutshell, is it not? Except you can add smashing them, slicing them and burning them to shooting them. And with the narrator's choice emphasizing how you are acting like a total almost genocidal jerk, while making it look like he think you are justified in doing that. That game was pretty damn weird, disturbing. Great soundtrack though.

 Psienesis wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I know I can not properly explain this complaint, but I believe that games kind of butcher the idea of masculinity. Games tend to be very masculine, but it's a very malformed form that is immature and hollow... Ya I kind of can't explain it too well, but maybe someone else knows and can explain it better.

I think I get what you're saying. The depiction of "masculinity" in video games posits that to be "masculine" must mean that you're a) steroid-junkie huge, b) have absolutely zero moral qualms with killing a huge number of probably-intelligent beings, c) display no emotions other than rage or lust, d) tend to solve problems by shooting them.

Which, frankly, is all entirely juvenile male power-fantasies. They don't make male characters huge and muscle-bound for female gamers, it's not eyecandy for them, it's eyecandy for the (ostensibly) male player, because the image is a male power fantasy.

Ya it basically snips anything positive out, but then paradoxical still plays it as positive. I kind of think men need a better power fantasies then the kind that exists in a lot of games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The depiction of "masculinity" in video games posits that to be "masculine" must mean that you're a) steroid-junkie huge, b) have absolutely zero moral qualms with killing a huge number of probably-intelligent beings, c) display no emotions other than rage or lust, d) tend to solve problems by shooting them.

Except for the a), Bastion in a nutshell, is it not? Except you can add smashing them, slicing them and burning them to shooting them. And with the narrator's choice emphasizing how you are acting like a total almost genocidal jerk, while making it look like he think you are justified in doing that. That game was pretty damn weird, disturbing. Great soundtrack though.

Oh ya there is that weird paradox element in a lot of games. You have these people that can be rather nasty people, but the setting and game will present these people as justified and right. I kind of had this feeling with the last of us. Joe is kind of a bad person with really no redeeming qualities, but the game really pushed for the idea that he was exactly how he should be. (That is how I saw it anyway. There is room for interpenetration)

The only issues I have with representation of men in video games is race. Women whine about unequal representation in video games, which certainly is a valid complaint, but how many black protagonists do you see in video games? How many latino, or native american or arabic protagonists?

That's probably the only thing that really bugs me about male representation, but that isn't exclusively a male representation issue, as they're just as little racial minorities of the female variety in gaming.

Beyond that, don't really care. I like my muscle-bound Gears of War characters, and my buzz-cut 5 o'clock shadow soldiers, and my Rambos.

Oh ya there is that weird paradox element in a log of games. You have these people that can be rather nasty people, but the setting and game will present these people as justified and right. I kind of had this feeling with the last of us. Joe is kind of a bad person with really no redeeming qualities, but the game really pushed for the idea that he was exactly how he should be. (That is how I saw it anyway. There is room for interpenetration)

I touched on Joel's presentation in the other thread, the one on the appearances of females in video games, but I'll mention it again here.

Joel is presented to you, the player, as an idealized male figure, especially if you are a player of a certain age or of a certain background.

I was most-definitely that ideal player. I come from a region and a family in which I was taught that, as a man, it was my job to defend the home, provide for the family, and protect women and children. It was Southern Chivalry/Chauvinism at its finest.

Joel is entirely that figure. Ellie is entirely the perfect archetype to make the player want to protect her, and it is the belief that you, the player. will have the same social conditioning, that you have been taught that you, a man, are responsible for the well-being of women and children (and, *most especially*, female children)that will drive you to kill an entire battalion of soldiers with your bare hands (if need be), all in the selfish drive to protect your father/daughter relationship with Ellie, to the possible detriment of all Mankind.

If we are talking RPGs...I like misc. grizzled dude protagonists. Because the lead character is supposed to be me; the more characterization they force onto them the less I am that character. It's the quintessential difference between Western and Japanese RPGs ... in most JRPGs I am watching a movie starring someone else where I get to make some of the choices. In Western RPGs I am the lead character and this is my story.

I want the lead to be bland, and I want the side characters to be interesting.

 Bromsy wrote:
If we are talking RPGs...I like misc. grizzled dude protagonists. Because the lead character is supposed to be me; the more characterization they force onto them the less I am that character. It's the quintessential difference between Western and Japanese RPGs ... in most JRPGs I am watching a movie starring someone else where I get to make some of the choices. In Western RPGs I am the lead character and this is my story.

I want the lead to be bland, and I want the side characters to be interesting.

What if your not a grizzled dude. I can get behind blank characters, but they aren't giving us blank characters. They are giving us this one defined character over and over.

Even setting aside that an extremely generic white guy is only (or at least primarily) identifiable to white guys, the obvious answer to the problem of having an identifiable RPG protagonist is character customization.

Also - that definition of JRPGs would include many BioWare "RPGs" (not that I disagree with the definition).

 Manchu wrote:
Even setting aside that an extremely generic white guy is only (or at least primarily) identifiable to white guys, the obvious answer to the problem of having an identifiable RPG protagonist is character customization.

Also - that definition of JRPGs would include many BioWare "RPGs" (not that I disagree with the definition).

Some times a character creator isn't really reasonable or very practical. like in a FPS.

Chargen is not necessary in a FPS.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The only issues I have with representation of men in video games is race.

That is not an issue with male character in particular, but with video games characters in general, as there are even less latino, arabic, native american, or black female characters than male characters.

That's one reason I really liked the Saints Row games. I made a BAMF Mexican woman that went around pistol whipping everyone.
"Toma te lo, pendejo!" I would shout with great relish.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
In a thread about what problems gamers have with how men are portrayed, why bring up how women are portrayed?

For comparison purpose. What about the rest of my message? Do you agree with it? Would you like examples?

Why? There is no need for comparison in this thread, as the problems of how women are represented in games has already been hacked to death in plenty of other threads.

So people maybe wondering why there are two topics here when these issues are very closely related. Well it has to do with how people talk about these issues. When someone brings up the topic of how women might not be presented well in games people will bring up how men are not presented well, not as a meaningful inclusion in the conversation, but as a way to kind of say shut up this issue isn't worth talking about. There seems to be a little bit of a ditto factor here too. Why are we bringing up men in video games when men are doing so much better then women are.

I can't say that these statements don't have a point. Both are in fact rather true. The problem is how enough people use these statements as diversions and deflections to avoid actually addressing anything. That is kind of why this is two threads rather then one.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Why?

Why not? It gives perspective. What about the rest of my post? The part that should be interesting to you because it speaks about how men are represented in games?

BlaxicanX wrote:That's probably the only thing that really bugs me about male representation, but that isn't exclusively a male representation issue, as they're just as little racial minorities of the female variety in gaming.

I think male characters are notably less varied. The overall number might be in a similar ballpark, but when you consider that there's a lot more male characters in general, there is an obvious difference in the percentage.

This kind of ties into my earlier comment regarding a lot of devs going for the default white male when not being overly focused on story and character development. It's only when they really invest a lot of thought into a game's character/s that you start seeing deviations from the standard, in race as well as gender (and other details, such as the aforementioned sameness in terms of haircuts etc).

Nilin, Faith, Chell, Rochelle, D'arci Stern are some examples that spring to mind. Not sure if Alyx Vance would count as you only really play her in a spin-off/standalone xpac.
There certainly are similar tendencies, but overall I do see more variety.

nomotog wrote:Ya it basically snips anything positive out, but then paradoxical still plays it as positive. I kind of think men need a better power fantasies then the kind that exists in a lot of games.

I agree. Though that seems to be an issue with society in general, extending far beyond games (which, in a way, are only a reinforcing reflection of society) and encompassing both genders.

nomotog wrote:Some times a character creator isn't really reasonable or very practical. like in a FPS.

Except when it's a multiplayer game or you end up seeing your character in cutscenes.

Generally, any game that actually has a model for the player character.

Psienesis: Hmm, going purely by the design and presentation of said characters that is an impression I could not avoid myself. I'm simultaneously glad as well as disappointed to see this prejudice vindicated by people who actually played that game.

I was watching a documentary on horror films last night and there was a very good point about the justification of violence that I think applies to video games and particularly to how men are portrayed in them.

The point was that in the 1970s, a lot of movie good guys went around killing tons of bad guys because some bad guys did something bad to them, usually being they killed the good guy's wife and/or kid(s). This kind of "dark justice" style protagonist remains extremely popular in films and TV today and seems to describe about 90% of male protagonists in video games.

There could be a TV trope about it: "we're all Batmen."

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The only issues I have with representation of men in video games is race.

That is not an issue with male character in particular, but with video games characters in general, as there are even less latino, arabic, native american, or black female characters than male characters.

You should read people's posts before responding to them.

 Manchu wrote:
I was watching a documentary on horror films last night and there was a very good point about the justification of violence that I think applies to video games and particularly to how men are portrayed in them.

The point was that in the 1970s, a lot of movie good guys went around killing tons of bad guys because some bad guys did something bad to them, usually being they killed the good guy's wife and/or kid(s). This kind of "dark justice" style protagonist remains extremely popular in films and TV today and seems to describe about 90% of male protagonists in video games.

There could be a TV trope about it: "we're all Batmen."

Lots of revenge fantasies in video games. I wonder if that is any relation to the geek experience. You know the old you pick on me now, but I'll have my payback. It might also relate to how video game players seem to react as a whole to things. (You know what I mean.) There is this element of getting back at people who have wronged you that kind of envelopes game culture and games.

It gets kind of odd when you think about it. A lot of games expect the player to want to take revenge on NPCs and build their games around it. Like in bioshock 2 there was a segment where the game is expecting you to take petty revenge on someone who mildly inconvenienced you and then teats the opposite (that is not bloodily killing them for no reason.) as some big moral feat. (It wasn't. I mean come on why kill them at all when you don't have to.) There are other examples of games being set around revenge like the latter GoW games, Shadow of moredoor. Even saints row 2 as much as I like it has an entire segment all about more and more crazy revenge. (Though it dose play it as more horrible then justified.)

I am going to muse that revenge is even included in the gameplay of most games. Oh this boss has killed me 8 times I totally want to kill them now. The entire lutonarrative of dark souls basically revolves around getting enemies back for killing you.

nomotog wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I was watching a documentary on horror films last night and there was a very good point about the justification of violence that I think applies to video games and particularly to how men are portrayed in them.

The point was that in the 1970s, a lot of movie good guys went around killing tons of bad guys because some bad guys did something bad to them, usually being they killed the good guy's wife and/or kid(s). This kind of "dark justice" style protagonist remains extremely popular in films and TV today and seems to describe about 90% of male protagonists in video games.

There could be a TV trope about it: "we're all Batmen."

Lots of revenge fantasies in video games. I wonder if that is any relation to the geek experience. You know the old you pick on me now, but I'll have my payback. It might also relate to how video game players seem to react as a whole to things. (You know what I mean.) There is this element of getting back at people who have wronged you that kind of envelopes game culture and games.

It gets kind of odd when you think about it. A lot of games expect the player to want to take revenge on NPCs and build their games around it. Like in bioshock 2 there was a segment where the game is expecting you to take petty revenge on someone who mildly inconvenienced you and then teats the opposite (that is not bloodily killing them for no reason.) as some big moral feat. (It wasn't. I mean come on why kill them at all when you don't have to.) There are other examples of games being set around revenge like the latter GoW games, Shadow of moredoor. Even saints row 2 as much as I like it has an entire segment all about more and more crazy revenge. (Though it dose play it as more horrible then justified.)

I am going to muse that revenge is even included in the gameplay of most games. Oh this boss has killed me 8 times I totally want to kill them now. The entire lutonarrative of dark souls basically revolves around getting enemies back for killing you.

If designers are creating movies or videogames that are action packed based on the premise that action is entertaining and sells well then you need to craft a backstory that calls for lots of action. The easiest stories to contextualize car chases, explosions, brawls, firefights etc. are cops chasing bad guys, soldiers at war and protagonists seeking revenge. Horror and action movies want to entertain you with violent spectacles and videogames want to entertain by having you commit actions with your avatar/character. Killing something/one for flimsy specious reasons is probably more entertaining than just walking around not doing anything violent. Aren't the best selling games still dependent on driving/flight simulations and violence? How many games are escapist, immersive and have your character doing cool exciting stuff and not awash in violence? It's tough to find a way to have your character be that violent and still be the good guy unless you frame it so that everyone the protagonist maims and kills is bad. Revenge is great for that because since it allows the protagonist to go after everyone even people only tangentially involved with the original transgression/crime because a whole organization/entity of bad guys is tainted by that original sin.

That is called begging the question.

Prestor Jon wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I was watching a documentary on horror films last night and there was a very good point about the justification of violence that I think applies to video games and particularly to how men are portrayed in them.

The point was that in the 1970s, a lot of movie good guys went around killing tons of bad guys because some bad guys did something bad to them, usually being they killed the good guy's wife and/or kid(s). This kind of "dark justice" style protagonist remains extremely popular in films and TV today and seems to describe about 90% of male protagonists in video games.

There could be a TV trope about it: "we're all Batmen."

Lots of revenge fantasies in video games. I wonder if that is any relation to the geek experience. You know the old you pick on me now, but I'll have my payback. It might also relate to how video game players seem to react as a whole to things. (You know what I mean.) There is this element of getting back at people who have wronged you that kind of envelopes game culture and games.

It gets kind of odd when you think about it. A lot of games expect the player to want to take revenge on NPCs and build their games around it. Like in bioshock 2 there was a segment where the game is expecting you to take petty revenge on someone who mildly inconvenienced you and then teats the opposite (that is not bloodily killing them for no reason.) as some big moral feat. (It wasn't. I mean come on why kill them at all when you don't have to.) There are other examples of games being set around revenge like the latter GoW games, Shadow of moredoor. Even saints row 2 as much as I like it has an entire segment all about more and more crazy revenge. (Though it dose play it as more horrible then justified.)

I am going to muse that revenge is even included in the gameplay of most games. Oh this boss has killed me 8 times I totally want to kill them now. The entire lutonarrative of dark souls basically revolves around getting enemies back for killing you.

If designers are creating movies or videogames that are action packed based on the premise that action is entertaining and sells well then you need to craft a backstory that calls for lots of action. The easiest stories to contextualize car chases, explosions, brawls, firefights etc. are cops chasing bad guys, soldiers at war and protagonists seeking revenge. Horror and action movies want to entertain you with violent spectacles and videogames want to entertain by having you commit actions with your avatar/character. Killing something/one for flimsy specious reasons is probably more entertaining than just walking around not doing anything violent. Aren't the best selling games still dependent on driving/flight simulations and violence? How many games are escapist, immersive and have your character doing cool exciting stuff and not awash in violence? It's tough to find a way to have your character be that violent and still be the good guy unless you frame it so that everyone the protagonist maims and kills is bad. Revenge is great for that because since it allows the protagonist to go after everyone even people only tangentially involved with the original transgression/crime because a whole organization/entity of bad guys is tainted by that original sin.

I don't think that is the reason. I mean ya a lot of games use action and violence because that is what they are good at, but there are way more vehicles for action and violence then revenge. You listed a few yourself and their are tons just tons of reasons to have you killing all kinds of bad people who never did anything to you personally. Like you don't have to be personally hurt by evil to fight evil.

My musing is that revenge fantasists are used for their own sake and not just because they make an easy vehicle to drive action and violence. Borderlands 1 was not a revenge fantasy, but borderlands 2 was. The plot line in BL1 was actually a lot more simple and easier to set up then the plotline in BL2. Portal 2 was a revenge story (you could also muse the same about portal 1) Though it didn't have much action or violence to it.

I think part of my thought here is that revenge is selfish. It's not a noble goal. It's selfish small piety and all around a bad reason to do most anything. Nothing good comes from revenge by itself and I think that playing revenge as the answer or in some other positive light is maybe the wrong message to be putting out there.

Then again I may be thinking too hard about this as I am know to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
That is called begging the question.

What dose that mean?

Assuming the point one is making.

Prestor Jon's argument seems to be that Batman is the most suitable character for games about Batman.

So...people WANT to play the 40-something, beer-gut having, balding, bad-skin sporting, deadend job-having majority?

Thank god you people don't make video games because jesus christ would they be depressing as hell.