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 Frankenberry wrote:
So...people WANT to play the 40-something, beer-gut having, balding, bad-skin sporting, deadend job-having majority?

Thank god you people don't make video games because jesus christ would they be depressing as hell.

I wouldn't mind there being some characters like that. Having too many characters that are homogonised and too similar to each other can be boring no matter what the character is.

 Frankenberry wrote:
So...people WANT to play the 40-something, beer-gut having, balding, bad-skin sporting, deadend job-having majority?

Thank god you people don't make video games because jesus christ would they be depressing as hell.

I feel like there's a fallacy of some sort that deals with making an extreme, absurd version of what people are saying to make the argument look ridiculous. But I can't find it, so maybe not.

Also, someone did make just such a game and it is about depression. Actual Sunlight.

 Lotet wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
So...people WANT to play the 40-something, beer-gut having, balding, bad-skin sporting, deadend job-having majority?

Thank god you people don't make video games because jesus christ would they be depressing as hell.

I feel like there's a fallacy of some sort that deals with making an extreme, absurd version of what people are saying to make the argument look ridiculous. But I can't find it, so maybe not.

Also, someone did make just such a game and it's is about depression. Actual Sunlight.

And people played it? My god.

The situation is so much worse than I originally feared.

 Frankenberry wrote:
And people played it? My god.

The situation is so much worse than I originally feared.

What do you mean by that? I can't figure out if your being empathetic or judgmental.

 Lotet wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
So...people WANT to play the 40-something, beer-gut having, balding, bad-skin sporting, deadend job-having majority?

Thank god you people don't make video games because jesus christ would they be depressing as hell.

I feel like there's a fallacy of some sort that deals with making an extreme, absurd version of what people are saying to make the argument look ridiculous. But I can't find it, so maybe not.

Also, someone did make just such a game and it is about depression. Actual Sunlight.

I think it's a strawman. I'm not quite sure.

Also, Frankenberry, you are being purposely ignorant. It's very possible to have a game with a non-generic protagonist without having it be something like that. Using extremes like that is not an actual argument.

Leave Mario alone! :(

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Lotet wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
So...people WANT to play the 40-something, beer-gut having, balding, bad-skin sporting, deadend job-having majority?

Thank god you people don't make video games because jesus christ would they be depressing as hell.

I feel like there's a fallacy of some sort that deals with making an extreme, absurd version of what people are saying to make the argument look ridiculous. But I can't find it, so maybe not.

I think it's a strawman. I'm not quite sure.

OH! Strawman! How could I forget that? It's like the first fallacy anyone ever learns and it completely slipped my mind.

I think that the white soldier player that has the always cool under fire black Sarge is a bit trope-ish. Black Sarge is sometimes used as the best friend character role but he always has that gruff no nonsense overly macho balls out attitude.

It sticks out to me because he's often the only black character in the game.

 Frankenberry wrote:
So...people WANT to play the 40-something, beer-gut having, balding, bad-skin sporting, deadend job-having majority?

Thank god you people don't make video games because jesus christ would they be depressing as hell.

Personally, that sounds like the beginning of a VERY fun FPS game or possibly an open world game.... Although, to make it really work, it'd probably be very similar in feel to Saints Row

I don't have much sympathy for 'variety for the sake of variety' arguments, which are intellectually, ethically, and artistically lazy. My complaint concerning the stubbly white thirty-something male with brown hair has little to do with him being white, his age, his brown hair, or even his stubble. Sure, seeing variations on this guy appear in so many games is a comical testament to the lack of imagination inherent to the traditional partnership between developers and publishers. And I don't think the whiteness or the maleness of the avatar is coincidental. But the real issue is that our generic protagonist is the harbinger of a larger problem, that so many games boil down to righteous violence dramas.

Let's just take Shadow of Mordor, for example. The story begins with our hero's happy family life shattered by the murder of everyone Talion knows, most especially his family. Couldn't anyone think of a better reason for the protagonist to slide so easily into casual mass murder? Yes. It seems like the creators of the game did just that. Talion is guilty of killing a man (not an orc), which is why he is 'sentenced' to the Black Gate in the first place. I think the developers crammed in the tried and true 'they killed my family' angle to brighten up Talion's image. Without the dead wife and son, Talion might easily be read as a serial killer forced to prey on orcs because he has been justly exiled from human society, which is just not very heroic at all.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Lotet wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
So...people WANT to play the 40-something, beer-gut having, balding, bad-skin sporting, deadend job-having majority?

Thank god you people don't make video games because jesus christ would they be depressing as hell.

I feel like there's a fallacy of some sort that deals with making an extreme, absurd version of what people are saying to make the argument look ridiculous. But I can't find it, so maybe not.

Also, someone did make just such a game and it is about depression. Actual Sunlight.

I think it's a strawman. I'm not quite sure.

Also, Frankenberry, you are being purposely ignorant. It's very possible to have a game with a non-generic protagonist without having it be something like that. Using extremes like that is not an actual argument.

It's a strawman in totality, I haven't misrepresented anyone's argument, I'm merely exaggerating. My point is that I'm tired of reading about how people seem to think that playing a game based on every day lives would somehow be fun. I think that is beyond ironic, seeing as how we play video games to escape our reality, and yet...people bitch when that escape isn't realistic enough.

I'm frustrated is all, I'm tired of seeing people whining.

 Frankenberry wrote:
I'm tired of reading about how people seem to think that playing a game based on every day lives would somehow be fun.

Would you kindly quote the post where that has been argued ITT?

 Frankenberry wrote:
It's a strawman in totality, I haven't misrepresented anyone's argument, I'm merely exaggerating. My point is that I'm tired of reading about how people seem to think that playing a game based on every day lives would somehow be fun. I think that is beyond ironic, seeing as how we play video games to escape our reality, and yet...people bitch when that escape isn't realistic enough.

I'm frustrated is all, I'm tired of seeing people whining.

Someone obviously has never played The Sims.

 Frankenberry wrote:
It's a strawman in totality, I haven't misrepresented anyone's argument, I'm merely exaggerating. My point is that I'm tired of reading about how people seem to think that playing a game based on every day lives would somehow be fun. I think that is beyond ironic, seeing as how we play video games to escape our reality, and yet...people bitch when that escape isn't realistic enough.

I'm frustrated is all, I'm tired of seeing people whining.

Seems you're easily frustrated if the little amount of that on this thread has lead to getting so annoyed. Especially if you're the type to exaggerate it and get even more mad about the caricature you've made.

Personally, I'm a fan of starting off with a somewhat mundane character. Such as in Morrowind, you can get your but kicked in a 1v1 fight against a level 1 peasant when you start playing for the first time. Dark Souls as well, especially if you haven't played that kind of game before.

 Lotet wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
It's a strawman in totality, I haven't misrepresented anyone's argument, I'm merely exaggerating. My point is that I'm tired of reading about how people seem to think that playing a game based on every day lives would somehow be fun. I think that is beyond ironic, seeing as how we play video games to escape our reality, and yet...people bitch when that escape isn't realistic enough.

I'm frustrated is all, I'm tired of seeing people whining.

Seems you're easily frustrated if the little amount of that on this thread has lead to getting so annoyed. Especially if you're the type to exaggerate it and get even more mad about the caricature you've made.

Personally, I'm a fan of starting off with a somewhat mundane character. Such as in Morrowind, you can get your but kicked in a 1v1 fight against a level 1 peasant when you start playing for the first time. Dark Souls as well, especially if you haven't played that kind of game before.

Sigh. Sure dude, whatever.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Sigh. Sure dude, whatever.

People just like different settings than you. Hardly seems like a point worth arguing about.

EDIT: I remembered no one has ever cared

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
It's a strawman in totality, I haven't misrepresented anyone's argument, I'm merely exaggerating. My point is that I'm tired of reading about how people seem to think that playing a game based on every day lives would somehow be fun. I think that is beyond ironic, seeing as how we play video games to escape our reality, and yet...people bitch when that escape isn't realistic enough.

I'm frustrated is all, I'm tired of seeing people whining.

Someone obviously has never played The Sims.

Sims is most fun when it's crazy though. It's kind of a mix of mundane and fantasy that works best. That may just be me though. I'm not your typical sims fan. Most seem to want more and more realistic stuff. At least the people who talk the most want that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
I don't have much sympathy for 'variety for the sake of variety' arguments, which are intellectually, ethically, and artistically lazy. My complaint concerning the stubbly white thirty-something male with brown hair has little to do with him being white, his age, his brown hair, or even his stubble. Sure, seeing variations on this guy appear in so many games is a comical testament to the lack of imagination inherent to the traditional partnership between developers and publishers. And I don't think the whiteness or the maleness of the avatar is coincidental. But the real issue is that our generic protagonist is the harbinger of a larger problem, that so many games boil down to righteous violence dramas.

Let's just take Shadow of Mordor, for example. The story begins with our hero's happy family life shattered by the murder of everyone Talion knows, most especially his family. Couldn't anyone think of a better reason for the protagonist to slide so easily into casual mass murder? Yes. It seems like the creators of the game did just that. Talion is guilty of killing a man (not an orc), which is why he is 'sentenced' to the Black Gate in the first place. I think the developers crammed in the tried and true 'they killed my family' angle to brighten up Talion's image. Without the dead wife and son, Talion might easily be read as a serial killer forced to prey on orcs because he has been justly exiled from human society, which is just not very heroic at all.

It would be a neat character though. Play with it a little. There is like an established trope for that kind of character even. You know the person who can't function in society, but at the same time they want to be valuable and productive so they do the one thing that lets them use their darker impulses/talents well also helping people.

I think there is merit in verity for verity's sake. Simply explained, novelty is nice. People like new and unexpected things particularly with characters. There can be other reasons to want change yes, but I believe verity has merit all by itself.

 Frankenberry wrote:
It's a strawman in totality, I haven't misrepresented anyone's argument, I'm merely exaggerating. My point is that I'm tired of reading about how people seem to think that playing a game based on every day lives would somehow be fun. I think that is beyond ironic, seeing as how we play video games to escape our reality, and yet...people bitch when that escape isn't realistic enough.

I'm frustrated is all, I'm tired of seeing people whining.

This might sound strange, but I wonder if it's like the uncanny valley for some people?

As in, there's a scale where someone needs to identify with a protagonist, but if you identify too much it becomes a negative and leads to unwanted self reflection.

Which brings me a baseless theory - I wonder if older gamers have less of a need to self-identify as the player character, as older video games had pre-packed main characters. You generally couldn't create 'yourself'

If true, that might mean that character customization becomes more of a standard as time goes by, because that's what the customer will demand

Or not just navel-gazing over here

 Frankenberry wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Lotet wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
So...people WANT to play the 40-something, beer-gut having, balding, bad-skin sporting, deadend job-having majority?

Thank god you people don't make video games because jesus christ would they be depressing as hell.

I feel like there's a fallacy of some sort that deals with making an extreme, absurd version of what people are saying to make the argument look ridiculous. But I can't find it, so maybe not.

Also, someone did make just such a game and it is about depression. Actual Sunlight.

I think it's a strawman. I'm not quite sure.

Also, Frankenberry, you are being purposely ignorant. It's very possible to have a game with a non-generic protagonist without having it be something like that. Using extremes like that is not an actual argument.

It's a strawman in totality, I haven't misrepresented anyone's argument, I'm merely exaggerating. My point is that I'm tired of reading about how people seem to think that playing a game based on every day lives would somehow be fun. I think that is beyond ironic, seeing as how we play video games to escape our reality, and yet...people bitch when that escape isn't realistic enough.

I'm frustrated is all, I'm tired of seeing people whining.

You represent everything that is wrong with modern game design.

 stanman wrote:
I think that the white soldier player that has the always cool under fire black Sarge is a bit trope-ish. Black Sarge is sometimes used as the best friend character role but he always has that gruff no nonsense overly macho balls out attitude.

It sticks out to me because he's often the only black character in the game.

"I'm too old for this gak." Actually, even in movies, cool under pressure black Sarge shows up WAY too much

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
Which brings me a baseless theory - I wonder if older gamers have less of a need to self-identify as the player character, as older video games had pre-packed main characters. You generally couldn't create 'yourself'

I've gamed longer than almost anyone on the forums (Atari 2600 master race), and this sure as HELL ain't true for me.

Some older games did allow you to choose though. Like that weird little shooter for genesis, Zero Tolerance. Almost always played the Nurse character.

 Melissia wrote:
Some older games did allow you to choose though. Like that weird little shooter for genesis, Zero Tolerance. Almost always played the Nurse character.

A minority could allow you to choose, but not really customize. I meant more Baldur's Gate style character customization, and I haven't noticed it much outside of western RPGs.

I find I don't really give two gaks in most cases. In games where race or gender don't matter (which is most of them), then the PC should be customisable within a limited range of presets (skin tone, a few faces, gender, possibly a few body types.)

Most PCs in games like Call of Duty or Battlefield or their cohorts could fit this in pretty easily. When the character is more specific - like the Shadows of Mordor guy being a Gondor Captain then fine, go for whatever archetype is best used for that character (and FWIW, the SoM guy is as generic and boring as all hell).

Even Captain Whatsisface from Space Marine could have had a skin-tone slider (and maybe a few haircut options) without harming the game or going against the fluff.

If there's actual characters with specific characterisation in play, like, say, GTA5, then fine. Same deal with licenced characters in games.

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Some older games did allow you to choose though. Like that weird little shooter for genesis, Zero Tolerance. Almost always played the Nurse character.

A minority could allow you to choose, but not really customize. I meant more Baldur's Gate style character customization, and I haven't noticed it much outside of western RPGs.

Most games didn't. Customization usually went as far as class/race or maybe stats, but actual look customization was pretty rare.

Anyone else wondering why this talk keeps coming back to customization? Maybe it's just melissia just bringing it up a lot or maybe there is something about games that invites it or something. Like you would never suggest a movie with a customizable protagonist.

 Psienesis wrote:
You represent everything that is wrong with modern game design.

Come on now, I disagree with Frankenberry but I would never go so far as to say that. I'd sooner say you represent everything wrong with modern discussion before I call Frankenberry such a big problem. But I won't, because it's not appropriate or true.

 Melissia wrote:
Some older games did allow you to choose though. Like that weird little shooter for genesis, Zero Tolerance. Almost always played the Nurse character.

*looks up Zero Tolerance Genesis*
*gasp!*
Melissia primarily chose a male character when given the choice of gender?? Truly, it was a different time.

 Lotet wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
You represent everything that is wrong with modern game design.

Come on now, I disagree with Frankenberry but I would never go so far as to say that. I'd sooner say you represent everything wrong with modern discussion before I call Frankenberry such a big problem. But I won't, because it's not appropriate or true.

 Melissia wrote:
Some older games did allow you to choose though. Like that weird little shooter for genesis, Zero Tolerance. Almost always played the Nurse character.

*looks up Zero Tolerance Genesis*
*gasp!*
Melissia primarily chose a male character when given the choice of gender?? Truly, it was a different time.

Sir, you have thanks for this hilarious reply.

 Lotet wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
You represent everything that is wrong with modern game design.

Come on now, I disagree with Frankenberry but I would never go so far as to say that. I'd sooner say you represent everything wrong with modern discussion before I call Frankenberry such a big problem. But I won't, because it's not appropriate or true.

 Melissia wrote:
Some older games did allow you to choose though. Like that weird little shooter for genesis, Zero Tolerance. Almost always played the Nurse character.

*looks up Zero Tolerance Genesis*
*gasp!*
Melissia primarily chose a male character when given the choice of gender?? Truly, it was a different time.

Captain Satoe Ishii. I was wrong in saying she was the nurse; she was communications specialist. Was probably remembering some other old game.

nomotog wrote:
Anyone else wondering why this talk keeps coming back to customization? Maybe it's just melissia just bringing it up a lot or maybe there is something about games that invites it or something. Like you would never suggest a movie with a customizable protagonist.

Because customisation is relatively easy to put into the majority of games where the race, looks and sex of the character is essentially immaterial to the plot (if the game even has a plot ). You wold not suggest a customisable movie because movies are typically shoot with real actors, and even digital films have a much tighter requirements for animation which means it is hard to render a user input in a reasonable time to give cinema grade visuals (though we are getting much closer these days to that capability).

 Melissia wrote:

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
Which brings me a baseless theory - I wonder if older gamers have less of a need to self-identify as the player character, as older video games had pre-packed main characters. You generally couldn't create 'yourself'

I've gamed longer than almost anyone on the forums (Atari 2600 master race), and this sure as HELL ain't true for me.

Some older games did allow you to choose though. Like that weird little shooter for genesis, Zero Tolerance. Almost always played the Nurse character.

Bah! I had a dedicated Pong system as my first video game system, Atari is so for newbs.

I think in a lot of classic games gender was pretty much a non thing, Pac Man and Ms Pac Man were probably the first ones to have gender and I don't think they can really be considered trope-ish as tropes depend on being a repeated situation. (Which wouldn't occur until later games). The older games were a lot simpler and didn't get into all sorts of story heavy settings and most of them never even had any lines. For the most part they were just a bunch of sprites so I don't think too many people were upset or wrapped up in the genders as it was about pounding buttons. IMO that wasn't something that came around until much later when graphics evolved enough that you could show a character with heaps of muscles or over flowing boobs and they started trying to write personalities into the games. (and in most situations early games did a terrible job establishing any characters male or female)