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Box Set Breakdowns Announced:


Looks spot on to what I predicted... I think (double checking now):

Ares vs Riff, 33 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals):
- Ares: Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers (14 miniatures)
- Riff: Fink, Sihals, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)

Ares vs Sayx, 33 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals):
- Ares: Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers (14 miniatures)
- Sayx: Tarko, Dianne, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)

Ares vs Harvesters, 33 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals):
- Ares: Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers (14 miniatures)
- Harvesters: Sphynx, Virus, 10 Necroslaves, 5 Slave Warriors, 2 Cybermasters (19 miniatures)

Riffs vs Sayx, 38 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals) +$15:
- Riff: Fink, Sihals, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)
- Sayx: Tarko, Dianne, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)

Riffs vs. Harvesters, 38 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals) +$15:
- Riff: Fink, Sihals, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)
- Harvesters: Sphynx, Virus, 10 Necroslaves, 5 Slave Warriors, 2 Cybermasters (19 miniatures)

Sayx vs. Harvesters, 38 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals) +$15:
- Sayx: Tarko, Dianne, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)
- Harvesters: Sphynx, Virus, 10 Necroslaves, 5 Slave Warriors, 2 Cybermasters (19 miniatures)

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm looking to get everything except the vehicles for Ares, Riff and Sayx. I've got a $100 EB Assault Trooper. What's the best way to go about this?

Since there's an alternate BITSIE for free, I'm thinking maybe it is to go with SAYX vs. RIFF as the box set, and adding everything else on individually?

After getting some coffee and looking at options more. That is a good point about the Bitsie alternate for free. Honestly the best method that I can see is (KISS) "EB Assault Trooper + Add-ons", no double pledging. Providing I didn't miss any troops and I'm doing my math correctly, it comes to $465 with shipping for 81 miniatures in total.

Breakdown and Comparison:

 Alpharius wrote:
For some reason, you only pay for shipping for pledge levels, not for add-ons, though I can see them eventually changing that?

Albino Squirrel wrote:
I wish they had gotten some sculpts done for the Sayx or Harvesters since the last Kickstarter. I'd really like some idea how those will turn out.

They have not done any for the Harvesters that I know of yet. Given how they have translated the existing sculpts so far, based on their sketches I'm fairly sure they will be pretty good. As for Sayx they did do Tarko Staklen and also have a video looking him over:

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
Maybe somebody should mention that in the FF comments as folk are actually starting to add postage costs on. If Artemis mentions it people will do the opposite what he recommends.

At this point I would want until we at least pass 90K. I would like to hear what they keep hinting at. Other than upgrading the PDF playmats to actual playmats or adding a booster, I'm not sure what new 'hidden' surprise they have. They seem to think it will be great... which it could be but I also know sometimes creators think something is really cool and everyone else is like 'meh'.

 Alpharius wrote:
Yeah, I'd definitely say it is smarter and more helpful for Scale Games if people do NOT add in their shipping now!

In the short term it really shouldn't matter. For the purpose of running a campaign, numbers always increasing are actually more useful than not increasing. Part of proper planning for a KS, the project manager should have already calculated the Kickstarter and Amazon fee's to determine their actual fund goal, along with stretch goals. KS does charge 5% and amazon charges 3-5% (depending if the funds came from a bank account, US credit card, International credit card or amazon stored funds).

It also greatly depends on what backer kit / pledge manager service they use. They could create their own and bypass a lot of fee's, there still tend to be credit card fees though for them. It is usually easier to use a service, then you don't have to deal with any security issues on your side. For an example I'll use the most common one used today, which is backerkit.com. It could potentially be worse depending on what backer kit service they use and what plan/services they use. Some backer kits charge 2-5% of your campaign funds and can have a clause to pull another 0-20% of funds raised in the backer kit. It is all really planning on the project manager side to determine if they expect to get a lot of dollars coming from the kit or if they don't. And some people have made the wrong choice unfortunately because they didn't think there would be a lot of add-ons.

For an example let us say it would of been $100,000 KS campaign if everyone added in shipping costs.

Now let's say that same campaign did end at $100,000, everyone included their shipping as part of the campaign.

So using the above examples and numbers, lets be a little more realistic. Given its the holiday, how the campaign is going and the assortment of forces we can safely predict that they could gain another $50,000 through the pledge manager, especially if they decide to open it up to new backers. Infamy is already at $7200, MERCS Recon is well past $150,000... granted I'm not putting this on that scale so I'm basing it off a combination of KS data.


Starting with our $100,000 campaign if everyone added in shipping costs, that ended at $85,606 because everyone didn't add in their shipping costs. Now we'll add in the $50,000 made in the pledge manager and recalculate:

Again the same campaign ending at $100,000, everyone included their shipping as part of the campaign. Now we'll add in the $50,000 made in the pledge manager and recalculate:

It is fairly clear that a larger campaign should be using Entrepreneur plan, although it has been my experience that a good portion still end up picking Standard plan. Again though the differences in amounts, in terms of when they add shipping aren't that great. You aren't saving the company themselves a lot of money. It is a double edged sword though, because by not adding in shipping you could be hurting your campaign if people don't believe stretch goals are obtainable. That tends to have to do with the stretch goal choices, the amount differences between stretch goals, when they reveal, etc. There unfortunately isn't one set of rules to follow as each campaign tends to operate slightly different in terms of what their backers want and directions they can go.

In the case of FF since we're dealing with $10k stretch goals, there is more than enough leeway to account for inflation from the shipping... in particular it would be more helpful for their campaign. Some campaigns when they have $5k stretch goals and they are throwing freebies left and right or new sculpts, it could potentially could bite them in the end. Infamy for example had stretch goals varying from $2000-$7000 between. They weren't bad stretch goals, their market is slightly different and it worked out for them. Mercs on the other hand had $30-50k, but you were getting a lot of miniatures because they were in plastic. They are also a bigger company so the tooling was for plastic, they are also bigger company. FF given what they are given out though couldn't follow either of those paths, they sort of have to develop their own. Some of them have been pretty good and some are average but overall I don't think there will be issues. So far they have given themselves enough leeway and room given the information that is out there.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
I think the big news is the addition of the campaign book?

Unfortunately that is kind of a meh for me. Campaigns can be popular but since they haven't released enough information, demo's of gameplay and what that campaign includes... it doesn't pull me in. I'm sure, it will however for those that like Harvesters. If it came with a couple miniatures or a boss or some new mechanic, then maybe it could be interesting.

After skimming through rules though, starting to sort through fighting styles... I'm going to make a modified home brew and call it Craft Wars (can't call it Star Craft and can't call it Star Wars)... but for some reason playing Star Craft reminded me of this game. It is probably due to the resource management, gaining minerals, managing your forces. Drop your command center, troops on planet, use them to create your foot-hold to move forward and create more troops. I could fashion Ares Troopers like Terrain Marines. ^_^

 cincydooley wrote:
Yeah, seems to me it makes more sense for the companies running the KS projects to not charge for shipping until they last minute when they have the actual shipping costs.

It does but it is sometimes difficult to do for big projects because of sticker shock. I've heard some outrage at various KS because their shipping costs were so high and it was unexpected. It is used to be that creators calculated estimate, add 6-10% and absorb them as part of distrubtion cost. It is now becoming more of a trend to add shipping at the end of the campaign, charging what the actual total may be. Depending on who they use for shipping (distribution, simple postal service, ups, fedex) the differences can vary greatly from $5-50.

One of the harder things for a smaller KS (I'm not saying that this one is a smaller one) is trying to find that balance. For example something that costs $6 in the US, costs me $30 to send to Canada and Europe through normal postal means. Granted a lot of that is dependant on weight and packaging, which is why a lot of KS may have one retail box, with the rest being loose in bundles.

 Artemis Black wrote:
Added to your campaign, unlocking 2-3 stretch goals, possibly of freebies so zero increase in actual sales (There may be a minor increase in sales if the unlocks are add ons).

To be fair though their campaign isn't unlocking a lot of freebies, they are in terms of a couple single miniatures but compared to other campaigns where you'd get more. Not to mention their stretch goals are fairly spaced out.

 cincydooley wrote:
Honestly, I think the way CMoN is doing it now is probably the best way to do it. You estimate shipping, and then you have actual shipping at the end. The only better way is probably offering a "shipping credit."

I believe that is the safest way, at least for a companies who may not have experience with shipping or contracts through distribution centers. Give an estimate, have it applied as a credit at the end to go towards the actual amount. It helps avoid sticker shock for some.

ClockworkChaos wrote:
Hmm some weird drop of like 2k in the pledges occurred. It seems that scale games contacted people and its mostly due to financial occurrences on some peoples parts but I wonder why you would change now? I mean doesnt it make sense to make changes at the end? Then again maybe thats just me. I just dont like to see that total drop below 90K. Not cool. I mean I know a lot of people are going to be adding a lot of money post KS but still I hope most stay in for what they got.

I have 6 Kickstarters ending shortly and 4 pledge managers closing in 4 weeks. There has definitely been some shifting around on my part (not with this campaign) but it happens. There could be a lot of different reasons, new medical bills, kids needs glasses, car got a flat and needs a new set of tires. I just replaced the breaks in my truck and a new battery, I almost pulled out of 2 campaigns myself to cover... thankfully my bonus covered me.

Someone did a Battle Rep, testing out the alpha rules for Fallen Frontiers and posted it on Facebook here:

Got a game in to Playtest today. I used the Ares alpha list and my buddy used the Riff alpha list. His list contained an assault squad led by Sihlas Fenn, a trooper squad with an officer, and a trooper squad with a heavy machinegunner. My list contained a soldier unit with both a sergeant and a gauss gunner, and a soldier squad with Bitsie. We set up the battlefield with the objective in the middle, and the four Krithium deposits. Riff setup first, and the Ares setup second. Ares win initiative and made the Riff activate first. (Pay no attention to my army loitering on the side)

The end of round 1.1 (round.phase), we moved into position around our deposits and figured out who was going to break the ice. By 1.3, Riff sent their middle trooper squad towards the objective. Bitsie squad chews them up pretty well, Sihlas squad moves behind the tower on the right. 2.1 comes around. I had taken the initiative in both 1.3 and 1.4. I won the initiative roll for 2.1. My Bitsie squad had taken a hit from the heavy machinegunner and the Riff player pinned them. Sihlas squad moved within assault range.

Here was my Ares dilemma. If I take initiative, two things happen. Bitsie would have to take her pinning morale check, and if she misses I am out a full squad and hero. I would also be fatigued, so my shooting would be at a disadvantage as well as an assault. If I pass the initiative, Sihlas gets the assault, and I would have a pinned disadvantage during my turn. I decided to try to take the initiative. I killed two of Sihlas squad, lessening the effect of his assault. Missed on the left hand side (where everyone is afraid of poking their head out. Sihlas assaults, gets three hits and miraculously I save them all. This would end up being a long combat because we kept missing or tying in casualties.

By the end of the game, Riff ended up getting two activations in a row setting up a move and fire against the left hand Ares squad, decimating them. Bitsie's squad finally took out Sihlas, but she was reduced to her and two soldiers. These were cut down eventually by the Riff machine gunner, securing the win for the Riff.

Conclusions:
There needs to be a starting level of command and Krithium. Waiting four phases before you can really use any cards was rough. We felt a good compromise would have been to give 3 command/3 Krithium to start, and then reduce the end of turn amounts by one automatic point each, and one per hero/leader and one per Krithium deposit.

Sihlas and the assault units seemed to lack a bit of shock and awe when assaulting. I rolled my saves really well, but it seems like my Ares should have feared them a bit more than I did.

Overall, we felt the Ares were a bit stronger overall, but with the small amount of units and cards, we're overlooking that at the moment.

All in all, we had a great time, and really love how the base system works so far. The timing of fatigue and activations make for some very stressful decisions, and we really liked it. Will play another game next weekend!

-Jason

Definitely a great idea to allow choice of hero as well. I hope those changes will help bring some new life to the campaign... but with the holidays, we might already be at the limits considering the other Kickstarters currently happening. Not that I don't mind, at this point everything is gravy. I do expect there to be a bigger push though towards the last 48 hours with this one.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
It does make a dedicated painters pledge kind of pointless now if you are getting 7 heroes plus the box set at a cheaper price than buying 7 heroes individually.

To be honest its something they should have done from the beginning is give the customer choice. Hindsight is a wonderful thing though.

It depends, the heroes in the box set are still locked in depending on the factions you choose for your core set. You don't get to choose those. However a Core Set is a better choice for painters, more miniatures with now the bonus to be able to choose heroes that are unlocked. At the moment we've only unlocked one, hopefully we'll break $110k by the end of the campaign and unlock 2 others.

TWG (Talk Wargaming) did a product review of one of the miniatures, a Riff Berserker. There are images of the pieces, detail as well as comparison photo next to Warhammer 28mm and Malifaux 32mm miniatures:
http://tinyurl.com/m7n9243

We passed the $92,000 mark and have unlocked two new heroes, Harvester Magnus and Ares Alexander "Operator 03". They are still hinting at surprise tomorrow, so we shall see what they have up their sleeve. I would have to guess a discount on something, maybe shipping since that seems to be the current 'complaint' at the time.

Update 26: Gameplay Example: Phases & Fatigue



Update #27: Presenting: Dianne Tianseen & Bianca Render!

 Alpharius wrote:
Good to see some forward momentum here finally!

I wonder what got this one going again?

Maybe a lack of truly 'good deals' in the USA "Black Friday" sales?

Not entirely sure but there is some truth on the Black Friday sales. I know someone from our game group brought the discussion over to reddit in a couple places. I also suggested they start a note on Board Game Geek in the Kickstarter section. They had one post in the News Press area, but nothing in the Kickstarter section. Not sure if that contributed at all, but it did start a couple discussions in those areas. Maybe its the holiday weekend and people are looking at Kickstarter while waiting for Turkey? ^_^ Still nice seeing a continual gradual climb in backers though, haven't been losing any just fluctuating totals.

The Fallen Frontiers Spreadsheet was updated, includes Black Freeday, updated Stretch Goals unlocks and Add-ons.:
http://tinyurl.com/mq65j2m

Hhmmmm now to do some recalculating on what to get. But first breakfast and lots of coffee.

Edit: If you do a double pledge (2x Battle Squad) you do not receive double stretch goals, 2x Free Heroes... but you do get double Black Freeday specials (2x Free Hero, 10 Scenic Bases, 2 Scenery resin elements. That could potentially make for a couple friends who want to split an army, a better deal than both getting 2x Assault Trooper. Hypothetical though, I haven't actually done the math for it yet. Had to chase the dog down, she broke out of the fence and was playing in the neighbors muddy yard. So I have been fixing a fence all day.

Cyber Monday! Their website is also back up and updated at http://www.fallenfrontiers.com/

Update #33

Dec 1 2014

The Damned are here!

Cyber Monday is here, and with it we are proud to announce the reveal of: THE DAMNED!

The Damned is a collection of mercenary heroes that offer their “services” to multiple armies. Each one of these heroes can be used in several armies, expanding your strategic possibilities further.

As a special treat we are offering these heroes at a special discount price of $12 each until the end of the campaign!

Here is a list of who can fight for which army:

- Kyra “Operator 551”: Ares + Riffs + Sayx
- Zerobyte: Harvesters + Sayx
- Val’n Dorr: Riffs + Ares

That’s it for now, make sure to check back with us later when we post a bit of background story on these heroes!

Just so everyone knows they did say that "until the end of the campaign", both for Black Freeday and Cyber Monday deals, means until the after the 'pledge manager' closes. Although It would be great to get the full backing now, they understand that it is the holidays and don't want anyone to miss out on these deals. At the very least you have to be in the $1 pledge to get access to the pledge manager but from there you will be upgrade and still have access to these specials.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
Those 3 definately make up for Bianca.

But I love Bianca... although the pose is a bit different. I do think they will have to adjust as it could have issues with casting. They did say they were looking at making a tabard option for those that don't want to look at her ass though :p

 RiTides wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:
If I was discussing Ultramarines and called them 33mm minis I am pretty certain I wouldn't get attacked for it ... because they 'are' 33mm minis despite them using '28mm scale' or whatever they use as a descriptor these days. How come with this company alone, telling the truth seems to be frowned upon?

If you were to say the latter regarding something, you most definitely would be disagreed with on Dakka, or anywhere that discusses miniatures. Your using the terms interchangeably makes it extremely hard to tell what you're talking about. When you say "40mm minis" it sounds like you're saying "40mm scale minis". Just like people say "28mm minis" referring to GW, or "32mm minis" referring to Privateer Press, or "35mm minis" referring to Kingdom Death or Arena Rex.

However, after you've made one additional post regarding scale in the wargaming industry, I do ask that you take further discussion of it to an independent thread, and allow this one to focus on the Fallen Frontiers campaign.

For those interested... I did actually take the scale in wargaming industry discussion to an independent thread here. I haven't responded beyond the initial post to allow people to make their own posts, without having any interference or direction based on what was being discussed previously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
For me It just seems a rather unnatural pose. The extra sword I like but both seem out of place as well. Upturned left hand and raised right hand look in mid action as if placing inside scabbards? (to me they do) but no scabbards exist.

The pose does seem slightly unnatural if we basing it from using a real metal blade vs lightsaber or nano-extending metal blade like weapon. It does seem completely unnatural if we are talking a normal metal blade because there is a lack of scabbards. That type of blade wouldn't be carried open typically. Since it is scifi though and the lack of scabbards, it leads me to believe the blade is more like a lightsaber than a real blade. In a couple scifi movies and shows, they had similar extending blades that start in the hilt. Using a nano technology to build the blade like Ultraviolet for example.

It is reaching a bit without proper background on the weapons and tech. However lets assume something that extends from the hilts, with them being stored loosely on the belt... although I'd probably rather have them horizontal on the back of the belt so you reach behind to grab them. She has drawn them and is in the process to flip the one in the left hand around upright, while she is turning to pull the other one across in a defensive position. Or she could be using both to fight in that fashion, for references I'm talking Ahsoka from Star Wars Clone Wars when she uses two blades. There is a particular fighting style that she uses that backs up the pose.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
Some folk might think by picking on one figure out all the heroes is just nit picking. If scale 75 want to give us the best product they can then should we not help them. If they do decide to go with the new render I'm cool with that as well.

For those that are unaware there is a Fallen Frontiers facebook, it is an unofficial group but Scale75 does have access to it. From what I understand, in the discussion of Bianca and feedback from the group, the 3D sculptor did respond with the following:

I did this work in the middle of campaigning. All this work is for all our fans but is crazy work un this way.

I give you thanks for your feedback and support. It is very important to us.

You have to know that this is a first aprox. to Bianca miniature so I will fix or make it again all and get the best. But we need time to give you the best quality.

We going to give you the best wargame!!!

Thanks again friends

He also goes to add in later:

This my passion, not just a work.

So they are listening and do read things. I believe initially that is what sparked the discussion of a tabard add-on. Some like the tabard idea while others like the booty. It is probably a split down the middle... hahaha!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Almost to another Free Hero stretch goal unlock!

 Alpharius wrote:
At the same time, I'm sure Scale Games has to learn/resist the temptation to listen to the loudest voice, no matter what.

It isn't always right!

Yeah given what happened with the previous campaign, I believe they have learned that the loudest voice isn't always right. They have, I think at least, done a decent job of trying to make changes, make people happy but staying on track with their own decisions. I mean if we were listening to the loudest voices... these would be 28mm, made in plastic and there would be lots of cheap plastic men that would have been horrible quality.

Yeah for another Free Hero. I'm fairly sure we'll get another $10k in the next couple days to unlock a 3rd Free Hero as well. Then they had to go add a Hero pack, now I have to redo all my calculations to figure out how to get what I want. LOL!

For those that haven't seen there was a Product Review/Preview of Riff Berserker done by Talk Wargaming here.

Mr Lee's Painting Emporium also did some pictures and review of Riff Berserkers here.

D@Iron_Lich Twitter has posted pictures of painting a Riff Berserker.
- Top Half
- More Airbrushing
- Full Miniature

 Alpharius wrote:
While you're at it, if you could figure out the best way to get everything for Ares, Riff and Sayx (but NO vehicles), I'd certainly appreciate it!

I am assuming you also are wanting to include the Mercs who can work for those factions too? Sure that is what I've been working on actually. ^_^

Triszin wrote:
So If I wanted the Riffs, what/how much would I need to pledge to get them?

Assault Trooper is the best bang for the dollars. Get a Core Box that is Riff vs Ares ($105), Riff vs Sayx ($120), Riffs vs Harvesters ($120). From Riffs that gets you Fink Dradd, Sihlas Feen, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 5 Assaultr Troopers, 10 Riff Troopers and you can also get 2 free hero choices to add-on from stretch goals.

The real question do you want a complete Riff collection? Do you want all the Riff heroes, vehicles, Berserkers and Hulks.. Assault Trooper + Add-ons will still most likely be the best option but once I know what more you want, I can figure out the cheapest route.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
Yes I got banned from it

What did you do that got you banned?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am really NOT liking the new changes to the KS layout!

 Alpharius wrote:
It looks as if we're better off getting the Sayx in the box set as it gets us 5 more troopers than if we get a Sayx 'Combat Force' where we only get 5 troopers and 5 assault troopers.

Ares should be purchased as a Combat Force Add-on and the Core box should be Riff vs Sayx for the best dollar. Still working out what is the best for complete 3 factions though (including 3rd free hero too since I am pretty sure we'll unlock it). It is tempting to Elite or Battle, but I think the scenery still makes it more than Assault Trooper.

For clarification. If you are at a $1 Pledge Level and you upgrade to a higher tier later in the Pledge manager, you will NOT get access to stretch goals. You DO get Black Freeday items but not stretch goals. Stretch Goals will be based solely on your pledge when the KS ends in 71 hours.

@William Stilwell . Yes, you wont get Stretch Goals. The pledges that give access to Stetch goals are indicated. But you still get BlackFreeday stuff.

For added clarification when the KS ends if you are at $1 Pledge or $70 Trooper Pledge levels (selected from Manage Pledge button), doesn't matter the dollar amount you are in for, you will NOT get stretch goals... even if you upgrade to a higher tier in the PM later.

If you are at the Assault Trooper pledge or higher when the KS ends in 71 hours, you WILL get stretch goals. Even if you change to a higher tier, say Commander at that time, you will still get stretch goals because you were already Assault Trooper Pledge level (which had stretch goals) or higher when the KS ended.

Triszin wrote:
Lets say If I wanted everything the Riff's had to offer (except the vehicles) + Lee Jenkins?

If you go Trooper Pledge ($70), you can get everything Riff related without vehicles for $214. However you do not get stretch goals, really just missing out on the PDF playmat, campaign book and painting DVD.

If you go Assault Trooper Pledge ($105), you can get a Riff vs Ares box and all Riff related without vehicles for $219. You will get the stretch goals, which why it ends up being similar because of free heroes. If we get to $130K that unlocks 2 new Riff heroes but also a 3rd free hero, so you would simply add another $15.

The pricing above doesn't including shipping, so depending on your region add in the shipping. Personally I'd go the Assault Trooper route. You technically could downgrade to Trooper later if you decided that was a better option, but you get more bang for only a few dollars more at AT level.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mymearan wrote:
Uh, what? I specifically asked them about upgrading to get stretch goals a couple of weeks ago, and they said clearly that YES, you will get all stretch goals if you upgrade from $1 after the campaign,

I'm going through comments trying to determine if it was specific. I know they definitely answered Black Freeday but can't remember on the stretch goals part though. Unfortunately with the new KS interface, it is really annoying.

I messaged Scale about the Stretch Goals and access after the pledge manager. It does appear it was asked and stated that they would get access. I let them know where it was at, so they can figure out if there was a change or a misunderstanding somewhere.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
Just a pity the new Heroes pack is not a pledge. I did ask about postage for heroes but so far its been left unanswered.

If you are just getting heroes, meaning $1 pledge + Heroes pack for $131, shipping would be $25 to USA and Europe and $35 to RoW.

Triszin wrote:
Are these discounted through the Kickstarter, or will they be the around the same price after the kickstarter?

I might just piece it out, and paint em and buy a few more and paint em. With my schedule I dont want to feel overwhelmed.

Do you mean retail wise or pledge manager after it closes? They did say the KS prices were discounted and they didn't have a MSRP for them yet. What that discount is and how much is unknown.

 Dentry wrote:
Ok, looks like I'm going Sayx and Ares.

Is there a picture anywhere that shows the pledges complete with applicable stretch goals? Trying to decide on which add-ons to grab but I'd like to avoid purchasing anything already coming my way.

Do these help?

http://tinyurl.com/pvlhvpg

http://tinyurl.com/oba4795

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
Actually was talking about would it be possible to get items sooner since folk are not waiting on items from china like cards and boxed items.

I am fairly sure the answer is no because heroes are still waiting for items from China. Each hero has cards, boxes. The cards for the heroes aren't in the base core box, they come with each individual heroes and troops from what it shows.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
Yeah but whats the point in cards when its obvious you aren't going to play the game just ship it in a box. It would be good if you had the choice.

It adds inconvenience to having to deal with two separate shipments. They are already going to have to run multiple lists with the Core Box choices. Personally I'm not a fan of KS where some backers get some items first before others. The only time that I see it being acceptable is in Forward Base's case because their whole KS is about creating product and shipping in multiple waves. Plus there is no way for them to store that product effectively with the quantities they are making so it made more sense.

As much as I love my Battle Systems scifi set, it was the one thing that bothered me. Granted some of that wasn't their issue it was Wayland Games issue but it was really disappointing when backers get items 'months' before you get yours. Look at Robotech RPG tactics, the way they shipped was awful so backers were getting their product but because of it, others have to wait months. Not all of them were people who are playing the game either, they just wanted the miniatures. It is just poor taste in my opinion.

str00dles1 wrote:
I saw it in the KS page a few days ago...I think but now I cant find it. Didn't they have a game play video? I have more deadzone then I know what to do with and kind of just wondering what makes this different. IF someone has the video link id love to watch it

They don't have a game play video that I know of. The rules are still in Alpha. It was demo'd at GenCon and there might of been video of that but I haven't seen it. You are able to download the alpha rules, although pretty rough, and they did give a couple examples of game play in the updates.

I haven't played Deadzone so I couldn't tell you the difference. However this game does utilize deck building to a degree. You basically create a armoury and troop deck that matches your play style and helps your troops. Then using command points and resources gathered through objectives in the game, you can draw cards, power those cards, etc.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
Its obviously something you are going to be biased about. I don't see why its poor taste but great customer service. I do just want the miniatures you make it sound like a bad thing.

I wouldn't say I'm biased but I did say it was my opinion. It can and can't be seen as good customer service. There are backers who paid just as much to help create the project and make it a reality. I realize that you aren't playing the game and just want the miniatures, we all want them for different reasons. It comes down to the fact that we all backed at roughly the same time, paid money and someone ends up getting product before others... that is where it is not seen as good customer service. It doesn't really matter how those individuals use the product if they chose to play the game or just to paint miniatures but someone got product before someone else.

As a business too they have to be looking and what is going to keep the business running. They are launching a game and are those 'miniature' painters going to be the one who helps expand the product and keeps the game going? I realize that is subjective but but the painters aren't playing the game, demoing and therefore not growing it. They also pay less money than the other backers and gamers who play it for the game. Setting money aside though it ultimately just comes down to someone getting product before another person. Then we'll have the people who paid the 'most' demanding they get product before those that paid less. Granted some KS projects have been that way and reverse method as well, either take care of easy projects first or complicated and ship... it really depends on the operation and space. Most of those are 1-2 man operations though.

Like I said just my opinion based as not only a customer but as someone who runs a business. It makes other people feel like someone got preferential treatment over others. Emotions aside I understand how it can make logical sense but gamers aren't logical when it comes to getting product. It was always the one bad thing about GenCon, dealers have badges that get them in an hour early. They were able to buy and line up and get exclusives long before the average person and often by the time the average person got there, even those who waited first in line at the door... they were out for the day.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
Its your opinion and I'm cool with that. Like you I have my own personal reasons, opinions and quirks for a project. (One of which is a good experience with the company before.)

Yeah it really is just a difference of opinion. Like I said I do understand the want to a degree. They are making them in house, so providing it takes 3-4 months to create the miniatures, print out their final versions it can logically make sense to send those out. I can understand that but at the same time it isn't fair to other backers. If they decide to do that though, I'm not going to complain or cry about it but I guarantee there will be people that do.

The other issue let's say that someone says they only want the miniatures and they ship it. Then 8-12 months later that person decides they want to sell their miniature but the buyer wants the cards with it or they have decided that now they want to play the game. The person could technically claim they not given '100%' of what they pledged for or that it was incomplete. To prevent that the company has to now create a waiver, have the backer sign the waiver saying they won't do that and keep that on file indefinitely. I realize that the majority of the people would never do that... but there are people that would, it ends up becoming more of a hassle long term.

However if they did make a painter pledge, I could see them being able to say 'miniatures only' with no cards and will ship X date. That would be fine in that sense because it was outlined from the beginning that way. Personally I feel like the Heroes Pack is really a painters pledge pack though, between that and Trooper or Assault Trooper a painter can get a very wide variety. I have seen a couple KS do something like that but it isn't too common.