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 Gallahad wrote:
Why why why are they running this so close to Christmas?

Oddly based on the numbers, November is actually a good month for Kickstarter dollars. It has always made it harder for me but there are quite a few successful KS with November launches.

Bioptic wrote:
That's all well and good, but if everyone does that (and increasingly on these things, why wouldn't you?) the thing won't actually fund! Or will just scrape over funding, meaning no nice stretch goals. Hence why time of year is possibly going to be a factor for the success of the project. I agree that there may be other factors forcing the issue of when to launch though, and at least they won't be running up against a CMON or Sci-Fi Mantic one.

Not everyone celebrates the holidays or christmas in the same way. There is a large population, even in the US, in the world that don't celebrate the holidays by buying others presents. So it won't be an issue for everyone. Then you have some people who get their other halves to buy them KS presents too. In my case I have 2 children and will be spending quite a bit on presents but fortunately I already have the majority of them bought. I tend to do shopping early, except for a couple items which I expect a better sales price.

Bioptic wrote:
[at least they won't be running up against a CMON or Sci-Fi Mantic one.

They aren't running against a Sci-Fi Mantic but Mantic does have a KS starting this week or next week, can't remember which one.


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 Alpharius wrote:
[Hurries up to go buy cincy's present now]

Speaking of presents... I wonder if Dakka has ever done some sort of secret santa gift exchange thing. That seems like it would be an interesting thing to participate in. Of course it would probably end up being everyone dumping what crappy miniature they don't want but still seems like a good community building experience. I'll stop thinking out loud now.

 Alpharius wrote:
You might want to have a closer look over there in the DCM forum...

On topic here - is it Friday yet?!?!?

Nice! That sounds like a fun thing. I haven't really spent much time over, guess I should pop over more often. I do see one for 2013, doesn't look like anyone has started one for 2014 though, unless I missed it.

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm in!

Someone needs to break those pledge levels down quickly to see if that $290 pledge is 'worth it' or if it is better off to go in at a lower one and throw in the addons?

Something like this (still not done)?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L_gZIFvFHzo5ds9qx5CW4WM43KwHI8zIsSQTUdTKVnc/edit?usp=sharing

 Malkaven wrote:
Maybe throw shipping charges in those calcs since its different per pledge.

I'll throw in shipping once I get it completed. Do you want a break down of costs per miniature with shipping or just keep shipping separate?

 Alpharius wrote:
Are those high level pledges taking into account the minis in the game starter box?

The higher level pledges are including the miniatures in the main box. That is why Faction even though a higher amount was placed above the Core Box pledge... so moving forward I just include the totals from that range (if that makes sense).

Are you more interested in breakdown of individual miniature cost without scenery?

I'm including total price and savings based on if you just bought them straight out as add-ons. Since I know the scenery cost, I can subtract that from the pledge level to get an accurate cost per mini without scenery in the pledge or do you want a cost per mini including scenery?

 Alpharius wrote:
Someone needs to break those pledge levels down quickly to see if that $290 pledge is 'worth it' or if it is better off to go in at a lower one and throw in the addons?

Ok I think it is fairly accurate not. At least I've double checked it the best I can. If anyone see's any errors let me know. As the KS progresses, providing they add additional items then I will update the spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1L_gZIFvFHzo5ds9qx5CW4WM43KwHI8zIsSQTUdTKVnc/edit#gid=0

 Alpharius wrote:
The only faction I don't like is the Harvesters.

My only real issue is I believe they completely set up to market it wrong. I understand the pull behind having a base game but the issue is that it locks people into two factions starting out, unless they invest a lot more money. They should have a Core Box that contains rules, cards, counters, card terrain and/or anything else needed for the game (game mat maybe). Then they should let the Core Game Pledge get the Core Box choose their own 4 Heroes, 2 Combat Forces and 1 Booster. Then players who don't like Ares and/or Vengeance aren't stuck with them or if they want Ares and Sayx or Vengeance and Harvesters instead, they could do that. It also works out better for a couple of friends who want to go in together and split forces. With the way it is, it means anyone that wants to start another faction needs to drop another $100 on top of the already $100 they initially dropped. If they fix that.... then I think that would greatly improve their marketability.

Granted there are games that do two faction starters and are a great way for players to start Infinity: Ice Storm is a great example. However since all the miniature are fairly inexpensive, it makes it easier to drop into that game. It also is a bit bigger letting others sell and piece out parts. The same is with Dark Vengeance for WH40K. A lot of it can be parted out, there is a larger game base. A newer game trying to get off the ground though... makes it harder to do, unless you just throw a bunch of cheap miniatures that covers everything (Mantic) but we are dealing with resin (which I am happy for).

ClockworkChaos wrote:
*Waves hands in air*

That's me. I actually like the Sayx ALOT and dig the Harvesters but I am tight on case and I would rather not buy into factions I am not going to use. I may throw a dollar at this and see if the option

opens up but I just don't like the Ares (Vengeance I like a little but less than Sayx and the Harvesters).

I'm more into Ares and Sayx but yeah I really like Sayx. I did give them the suggestion, hopefully they listen. I think not only for future expansion but just for the game to grow it would be a great benefit.

 RobertsMinis wrote:
Don't get me wrong, some of the factions and models look great and I would buy them in a heartbeat if they were available now and I actually seen the casting quality.

You can see a video of them looking at a couple of their resin production casts here: http://tinyurl.com/orwqxuf

 Artemis Black wrote:
I do notice that Scale are now going with the line that their figures work just fine with Infinity terrain, which is odd because Infinity figures are quite small and slender and generally the buildings made of it reflect that. You could easily use Infinity barriers and crates etc. and they'd just be smaller barriers and crates but then again you could say that for 'anything' generic. When people say 'scenery' they tend to include buildings and set pieces and 40mm hulking powered armour figures walking around a, for example, Micro Arts Infinity town are surely going to look like they are wandering around Legoland when the buildings are about 40mm per storey.

Something to remember about Infinity miniatures, their standard base (without any modifications) is 3mm high. Typically people will flip another base over to dress it up or use other existing bases which can measure to about 5mm high.

Ok now for actual picture evidence to help alleviate some conjecture, since I had a little extra time and wanted give actual examples that people can see. For some this will be great news and for others it may not be but overall it should be informative for everyone. There is no reason reason why existing 28mm "Heroic Scale" - 32mm terrain would not work with Fallen Frontiers. Unfortunately my Wild West Exodus miniatures (35mm) are being borrowed and Knight Miniatures haven't come in yet so I don't have them with me. I decided to gather up a few miniatures from various brands to create a lineup and give some actual examples with them in the meantime.

The miniatures and terrain used in the pictures are:
- Infinity: Nomad Grenzers, Nomad Mobile Brigada, Yu-Jing Guijia, scratch-built Drone, Operation: Icestorm terrain
- Warhammer 40K: Eldar Guardian, Terminator from Space Hulk 4th edition, Ruined building from Space Marines vs Dark Eldar box (4th edition I think?)
- Dust Tactics Grim Reaper
- Underground Lasers: Guard shack and blockade.
- Micro Art Studio: District 5 Garage

Disclaimer: The camera is my S5, sitting flat on its side against the table (other than one high angle shot), when I took the pictures. I tried to keep the setup and positioning exactly the same so there was no if very little variance. Keep in mind not all miniatures, other than the lineup, are side by side so some might seem a bit bigger because of perspective as they are obviously closer or further to the camera. It should be pretty clear what is what. The red line in the images is measured at 40mm. Also remember that base sizes vary from 3mm-6mm. There is a 4mm gap from the base of the ruler until it actually starts measuring, even though the line is at 40mm, it is actually at roughly 44mm in height.

Here are the control images of Fallen Frontier that I am using to base initial heights and sizes for comparisons with:


Here are my initial miniatures lineup images:


Now that we've established the baseline and comparison miniatures it is time to add in the terrain to the images starting Infinity Operation: Icestorm terrain. These are the pre-printed terrain buildings that came in the game box for Icestorm:


Warhammer 40K ruined building that came in a WH40K boxed set that was Space Marines vs Dark Eldar (I think 4th edition, it was forever ago so don't remember?).


Underground Lasers MDF laser cut terrain that was from their recent Kickstarter:


Adding in Micro Art Studio District 5 Garage into the lineup:

 OnePageAnon wrote:
Am i seeing this correctly and the mobile brigada is 35mm to the eyes? If so then you could use it as the perfect comparison between the FF miniatures and your terrain.

Yes that is about right.

 OnePageAnon wrote:
Am i seeing this correctly and the mobile brigada is 35mm to the eyes? If so then you could use it as the perfect comparison between the FF miniatures and your terrain.

Yes that is roughly correct. I created an image to show where 35mm is at. Keep in mind the Brigada base is 3mm and it is 4mm before the measurement actually starts on the ruler, so there is about 1mm discrepancy making the line really at 36mm.



Sure give me a few hours. I need to run some errands but I could probably do some pictures to give better examples.

I probably won't get new pictures posted until tomorrow... ran out of time and promised the wife I'd run do some MMO gaming with her for a bit.

I'll set up the table though with some terrain and take some pictures keeping the Dust Tactics Grim Reaper, Infinity Nomad Mobile Brigada, Yu-Jing Guijia, and Drone for consistency with the other pictures I've taken. I'm going to estimate that the Heavy Trooper types like the Behemoth, Vulcans, Hulks and Hyperion Armours will be fairly similar to the Yu-Jing Guijia in size.

If you were not interested in Ares and Vengeance the options that I can see are:

1) Faction Pledge (which does include stretch goals and rules) for $210-$220 with shipping. It is only 25 miniatures currently, there was a free one added as as stretch goal, $7.78-$9.57 per miniature. One disadvantage is it is just one army, so unless a friend gets a faction pledge you can't really play with friends or invite others to get into the game. You do get one of the vehicles as part of this, but I'm not sure if I like them yet or not.

2) Assault Trooper Pledge + Add-ons to create your 3rd Faction army. With shipping $295-305 for 57 miniatures if you are not interested in the vehicles, $5.18-$5.35 per miniature. You are able to get a different faction other than Ares and Vengeance and have a couple armies you can use to demo or play with friends. If you are lucky you can talk one of them into buying them or sell them off via 3rd party methods. It also includes stretch goals so you may end up with a couple extra miniatures by the end of the campaign, although no guarantee they are for your 3rd faction choice.

3) If you want a vehicle for your 3rd faction choice, you can do the Assault Trooper Pledge + Add-ons to get one vehicle, with shipping, for $340-$350. It would probably be better though to do Assault Trooper Pledge + Faction Pledge, if you are in Europe/USA it comes to the same price of $340. You unfortunately do not get double the stretch goals which is a shame and disappointment. However you do end up getting an extra Rulebook that can make it easier to selling Ares and/or Vengeance armies away along with the rulebook. If you are RoW it does cost $350 instead but it is cheaper than adding a $16 Rulebook add-on.

 OnePageAnon wrote:
Oh that's awesome. Could you take a few pictures just with the mobile brigada next to different terrain pieces then?

I thought this would be easy but it ended up being a bit harder than I thought. I wanted to take lower level shots so people wouldn't think that angles were being manipulated. Then it was a matter of trying to figure out how to position things to give an actual idea of size comparison. I settled for a little bit of everything. I also ended up getting a couple other miniatures the same size as the Nomads Mobile Brigada, Dark Age's miniature and Infinity: Combined Army - Suryats. Sorry some of them are painted and the terrain is pretty bare, since I've been sick most of my stuff is on loan so I gathered the left overs together.

For those that missed the original post size comparisons with a ruler, it is posted on this page or you can just click it here.

Infinity Operation: Icestorm card terrain that came with the box:


To help keep continuity I started to mix in other terrain including Battle Systems scifi wall and doorway and WH40K building ruins:


Now to switch it up a bit and started to add in various MDF laser cut terrain from Underground Lasers, Burn in Designs and Micro Art Studio:


I hope that helps give everyone a better idea of how Fallen Frontiers miniatures can still incorporate into existing 28-32mm terrain.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I just can't do $35 for shipping. If I was all in and getting tons of miniatures, maybe it would be worth it, but I was thinking of just grabbing 10 or so.

If you only want a few miniatures, even with $35 shipping, the Faction pledge isn't that bad of an option. You get 14 miniatures which puts them at $7.50 per resin 35mm miniature. On average resin miniatures tend to run $15-40 depending on size and where you get them, so overall not too horrible. Although for $35 more, the Assault Trooper pledge is definitely the best bang for the buck, 34 miniatures ($4.12 per miniature with shipping added to the total).

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm confused - don't we have to wait until the campaign is over to do stuff in a Pledge Manager?

Technically you don't have to wait for a KS to end to do things in a Pledge Manager, a few kickstarters give you access to the pledge manager before hand. However those changes don't add or effect the KS directly. I think it may be something lost in translation honestly as soon(tm) is a subjective term. Soon after the KS ends the Pledge Manager may be available, which end up being 1-3 months later.

 Artemis Black wrote:
(Also that coat will be a nightmare for casting, even in resin)

It isn't going to be too much of a nightmare really. They just need to cast it similar to what Infinity, Wild West Exodus, Warzone and Kingdom Death miniatures have done. The body is one piece with part of the coat. The rest of the coat is a separate piece that is attached, with a slight overlap so it can become seamless.

 Artemis Black wrote:
Basically you can't just show people 75mm statues and say 'This is what you'll get in 40mm' when it's almost certain you will not. That Dianne is a really nice 75mm figure, but until I see a print of it in the size I'd be getting I'm not buying it.

KS have always done this showing renders, concept and pictures of what they are creating even in the correct size and sometimes they match up and sometimes they don't, but I have been really surprised on how they always seem to match up pretty well.

 Artemis Black wrote:
What I have been critical of is the vague and misleading statements about various aspects of the kickstarter coming from whoever's in charge of that stuff and in fact the biggest things I complained about last kickstarter turned out to be 100% correct. The miniatures weren't the size they claimed and they weren't making stuff in plastic with the basic funding goal.

Except on day 1 on KS1 it was stated it was injection plastic and 35mm. It is all time stamped in their comments. When it was questioned what type of plastic is where it became vague because they didn't make any contracts and were waiting for the final results of the KS. Then it was stated some plastic, some metal... then later resin. Resin was finalized and in response to the back sliding because people didn't want cheap plastic and it didn't seem possible to HIPS given the amount of miniatures on the budget. Unfortunately since it wasn't budgeted around resin minatures there was no way they could of delivered those miniatures at the prices they were at without losing a lot of money.

 Artemis Black wrote:
That's the nightmare part, I hate cutting things up like that.

With digital and 3d printed works cutting miniatures up is the easiest part. It would be a nightmare if it was a traditional sculpt though instead of digital. That is the great thing about how well the newer Infinity's models have been turning out because of how well they've been cutting up their digital sculpts.

 Artemis Black wrote:
If you have a Kickstarter for a 40mm product and you put up a render, or in this case a painted final figure, without mentioning 'at all' that it's a 75mm statue, it gives the message that 'that' is definitely what you are buying.

I can understand to a degree if they actually didn't have anything else to show. The pictures and miniatures from GenCon were not 75mm statues. In fact you can look at the 75mm version and compare it to the quality for their 35mm on as they have both pictures on their Facebook page. The miniatures looked really good in person.

 Artemis Black wrote:
No idea why they just can't say that it's a 75mm figure, most of their fans won't care anyway and it's more honest for the ones that do.

It is called marketing. Why do you think there isn't fine print in fashion magazines that say 'photoshop'. Even other gaming companies doctor their photos up or take pictures of larger models without saying they are larger models. The only thing that matters if the final product.

 Artemis Black wrote:
What 'convention' would this be? I've worked in this industry for twenty years and sold hundreds of different companies products and haven't heard of this convention. 'Some' companies use a to the eyes measurement, pretty much zero companies use that eye measurement when telling you how big an individual miniature is unless they specify 'to the eyes', A measurement without that specification is an actual height.

Measurements to the eyes didn't start out as a standard. Historical wargames tend to be more truescale and measured to the tops of the head. The problem is that many companies were doing fancier, more detailed hair, larger helmets, etc and over the years it has been becoming a standard. Not stating that the measurement is specified to the eyes does not infer that it is the actual miniature height. Not to mention from the beginning they did state and specify that the measurement is to the eyes. But you are saying you won't say that because to be accurate, you would have to type out 'to the eyes', despite they have already stated that as their measurement.

Not to mention WH40k is advertised as 28mm heroic scale, but are closer to 32mm and depending on the race they can measure up to 28mm to the eyes and up to 35mm to the top of their heads. Infinity is also advertised as 28mm miniatures, they do not specify to the eyes. Not all the humans measure 28mm to the eyes, if we measured height to the top of the head they would be 35mm miniatures but it isn't advertised as a 35mm game. Wild West Exodus is advertised as 35mm miniatures and not all 35mm to the top of the head, some measure 32mm instead. Warzone is advertised as 32mm which is to the eyes, the miniatures are 35-40mm high (usually because of helmets) but when we refer to them we refer to 32mm, not 40mm. Even then it doesn't matter because races, factions, armor all change the height so they will vary... instead companies state "these miniatures are compatible with 28mm gaming" or "these will work with 32mm miniatures" or in this case "these are 35mm and do appear slightly bigger but still compatible with 32mm terrain.".

 Artemis Black wrote:
You missed the part where the things they have to show were my reason for asking. The one mini that's been resculpted and made smaller is Bitsie and the smaller version is demonstrably worse. In fact I consider it a bad mini whereas the 75mm is fine. The other minis 'do' look fine but they were not resized 75mm minis so that again more proves my point than not.

 Artemis Black wrote:
So your argument seems to be that while it is misleading, that's ok cos other people do that too?

 Artemis Black wrote:
If you ask someone how tall a mini is, you do not mean 'to the eyes'. They have been asked how tall actual minis are and have said 35mm. 'No' other company would do that that I know of, I have never once seen it happen before this kickstarter.

 Artemis Black wrote:
They can all walk through doorways on GW scenery, they don't look like giants next to a Space Marine etc. It's annoying enough to those of us who work in the industry that half the companies use a d6 with one of the above on to identify their minis for marketing purposes instead of real measurements or scales but when a company who, and I'm trying to avoid the wrath of Ritides here, basically make 40mm tall minis which most definitely don't match with GW figures, classifies themselves as a '35mm scale' game then, to me, that's a step too far. There's marketing and then there's taking the mick. They even resized their minis to make some of them 'actually' 35mm to the eyes and still all of the minis in the boxset this Kickstarter is selling are '37mm to the eyes' or 40mm in regular speech.

 Artemis Black wrote:
I'm not calling them 40mm because somehow that's an insult, I'm calling them 40mm because I've pledged for the boxset and when I get that boxset and hold a ruler next to any of the 34 figures in it, by their own admission, all the measurements will start with a 4. If I was discussing Ultramarines and called them 33mm minis I am pretty certain I wouldn't get attacked for it (at least I hope not, I haven't spent enough time on dakka to actually state that with any certainty), because they 'are' 33mm minis despite them using '28mm scale' or whatever they use as a descriptor these days. How come with this company alone, telling the truth seems to be frowned upon?

@Artemis Black - I just want you to know overall I prefer to think that everyone has good intentions and aren't trying to be jerks and sabotage things. I always like to think that even though people may not agree or communicate on the same wave length, they are trying to be of a benefit. Granted that isn't always the case but I always try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I don't think you are trying to ruin things but it does make it hard and skeptical for others, when the same thing is hashed over and over. It also doesn't help that this is currently the only Kickstarter listed that you are a backer of, which is probably why you get a lot of resistance too. It tends to make people feel like the intentions may not be the best or you may have joined just to cause discord. I do understand that doesn't necessarily mean you've never backed other kickstarters, I have a couple accounts, some I've used to sell pledges for and others so I can double up on some things so not everything I backed appears under mine either. Even though I don't agree with what you saying a good portion of the time and think your perceptions are mixed up and don't match mine. I know sometimes when there are discussions with lots of quoting back and forth between people, it can seem or start to be taken personal, and want you to know I don't have any bad feelings or hostile intentions towards you. I just simply don't see it the same way or agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ClockworkChaos wrote:
I feel like most of this can be summed up by the point made in the Painting Buddha video. Its a 35mm scale. The humans ARE 35mm but other others that are not human are taller or shorter. Of course this is also basic logic. I do not expect my goblin in a 28mm scale to be 28mm and I don't expect a 9 foot alien and superhuman spliced alien to be as tall as a human. They should loom over them cause... well cause they are huge. So if the humans are the smallest species and they are 35mm to the eye its a 35mm scale. It just so happens that 2 of the factions are bigger than the humans and thats ok! (I assume the harvesters are as tall as humans as most of them seem to be undead humans.

That is a good point to which I want to add. Ares are not considered humans, they are larger sized human-like race genetically altered for war making them bigger and bulkier. Sayx are whom would be defined more closely as human, even though they were also modified but they weren't created to be the big bulks like Ares were.

ClockworkChaos wrote:
As a side note, that is more on topic, does this make sense- If I pledge $1 now and then up the pledge to the assault trooper afterwards will I still get all the benefits/stretch goals of it?

The answer is yes. You can pledge afterwards and still get the benefits of the stretch goals if you upgrade to a pledge that has stretch goals. They answered it in the comments section of Update 6.

SCALE GAMES LLC: Yes, changing to higher pledges from $1 after the Kickstarter will give you access to the stretch goals.

The $1 pledge was one of the recommendations I pushed for given the multiple KS and the holidays going on now. It really was in their best interest to have had that and I'm glad they listened. On the plus side... I have also been told they are looking into the other suggestion about coming up with a method for more of a customization of the Core Box set. That doesn't mean it will happen but I can hope. I know if they do allow it, there are at least a few people I know who would finally back as that is the only thing holding them back.

Edited: Added in spoiler tags so no one would take a critical hit from the wall of text.

 Artemis Black wrote:
Out of interest, where am I mixing terms? I don't believe I am, I've not called this Kickstarter '40mm scale' I have said that their minis are 40mm, because that is the height of, so far, the majority of their miniatures and both of the races in the main boxset. They can call their game, 36.2mm scale or FF scale or 20mm uber mega heroic scale, it doesn't change what 'I' would call the individual minis, which is the actual size of them.

We use it 'on that miniature' because she has a mohican so it's a shorter alternative than '25mm to the top of her head but not to the top of her hair' etc. Plus I didn't write that particular description or it may have said the long form anyway (Now that you've pointed it out to me it'll be changed after our premisesmove) However you will note it goes out of it's way to actually 'say' to the eye', it doesn't just say '25mm scale' and make you guess what that means.

Even though it was pointed out multiple times where it was done, it was ok because it goes out of its way to actually say to the eye. Which is apparently exactly what they do in their FAQ but somehow that isn't ok. And the other companies that also do it, apparently all have it wrong as well, making it is confusing to their customers. I don't see any confusion at all when they have been has transparent about size as just about every other company out there... not only in referring to what it is compatible and comparable with but the height. Just like WH40k really isn't 28mm but doesn't change the fact that it is considered that and advertised as that. Now whether you personally choose to call it that is a different story but by not following a norm, you end up being the cause of confusion for others.

 Artemis Black wrote:
....I don't use '40mm scale', mostly because it's meaningless. You can't actually have a mm based 'scale', mm is reserved for height. Any use of a mm scale is basically, as I've said, a proxy for 'meh, somewhere about this height'. Which is fine if that's what you want to know, but if someone asks 'Hey, how tall is this mini' or 'how tall is this race', you'd better be giving an actual height, and not to the eyes. I would fire someone for answering such a simple question with such a stupid answer....

....I already said all of the above, companies randomly describe their minis for marketing purposes. That does 'not' mean that people should be censored into using their made up definitions. If talking about minis of a certain height I'm going to use that height, anything else is simply stupid...

So you aren't going to call a tomato a vegetable, even though it is really a fruit, because every company refers and markets it that way?
http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=female-armature-%28b%29~hfl504&category=accessories~converting
"Single 28mm scale female armature." - Just want to point out that this not only is referring scale but also doesn't measure 28mm from the foot the head. It measures 27.5mm to where the eyes would be and is actually 29mm to the top of her head... but it's ok to say it is a 28mm scale, because it is obviously randomly described for marketing purposes. We also shouldn't use 28mm scale as a definition then and should be calling it 29mm.

If you wanted to, but it would be silly because they have gone out of their way to tell you that their minis will be different heights already and as I know the guys at MERCs I'm pretty sure that if you went on their facebook and asked them how tall any mini of theirs was they'd tell you the actual answer.

That was their answer when asked how tall their miniatures were. But when FF clearly answers with the size, shows a picture, gives you a variance of size and also explains the how and the way they measure... it isn't ok? The true height of miniature doesn't matter. It only matters that a height is given in a formula that lets customers determine if it will match up with their existing terrain, games and other miniatures.

Conversely their supporters, like yourself, have been overwhelmingly negative towards anyone asking such questions. Guess which one does more damage to a product?

I haven't been negative at all. I've simply answered questions and pointed out where opinions tend to diverge and given many examples. The questions have been answered but there are still pages talking about the same thing before I even started responding (as seen from the quotes I pulled earlier).

and a 40mm tall miniature will, of course, look like giants next to a 33mm space marine. Feel free to take that comparison pic and see how it goes.

I already did in two previous poses, you must of missed them. There were quite a few pictures with various miniatures from various companies, using their miniature examples to create a baseline based on my own miniatures. I even took them with terrain ranging from WH40K to Infinity terrain as well. They don't look like giants, but Space Marines look fat... they always look fat, it is the one thing I could never stand about them.

If GW had a kickstarter that was mostly Tyranids and said the Kickstarter was '28mm scale' without bothering to mention that the Tyranids were 54mm tall or showing any comparison photos for them or ruler shots however people 'would' have a problem with that.

I have a question for you. If you saw a kickstarter for a pack of actual fantasy giants, no ruler shot, no comparison shot and you asked them 'How big are your minis' and they said 'They are in 28mm scale' with no further info, how annoyed would you be?

I wouldn't be annoyed at all. I would have asked for either a ruler example of exactly what was 28mm, to the top of their head or to their eyes. If they didn't provide anything else then I would have never backed them because there was no information to go from to use for reference. The difference is FF provided all the information, they identified what the scale of their product is (keep in mind companies also think about future products), they identified how they measured it, they gave multiple comparison images with rulers, they identified the larger race and gave you measurements stating to their eyes. With that reference you can figure out true height, take existing miniatures to determine if it will work with your terrain or if you need new stuff. You can make a decision on if that is the direction you want to go. All that information was provided even before day 1 launch. Just like I did using their images as a baseline, comparing them to multiple miniature brands and terrains to determine how compatible it would be. But judging from the way you comment, how you comment and what you have said it implies they didn't do any of that or they are trying to use marketing flim flam, when they aren't. You just don't agree with their definitions that are clearly outlined.

The boxset is the main focus for you. You even said it yourself because of the value. It actually isn't the focus for a lot of backers, that is actually the current issue at the moment. I'm hoping it will be changed as I've been told they are looking into it. It is the one big limiting factor in their whole campaign because not everyone likes or wants Ares/Riff. Personally I'll be getting Sayx and hopefully selling the others, although the secondary market will probably be shot unless there is some changes to the core box set.

 Alpharius wrote:
Happily, I love the Ares and the Riff, so I'm good to go with the box set.

I just need to figure out how to add in all their extras, as well as all the Sayx too!

I have to redo some of my calculations, I did try messing with combining two pledges like Assault Trooper + Faction but so far the best method is Assault Trooper + Add-ons, at least for me. That gets me complete Sayx minus the vehicle for $270 with shipping. I'm out of time so I'll redo calculations again later.

 Alpharius wrote:
ASSAULT TROOPER + add-ons does seem to the way to go...

So far, the only thing I don't is the vehicle design - none really work for me. They look more 'toy-like' than I'd prefer.

Maybe once we see actual physical models I'll change my mind though?

Hopefully vehicles won't dominate the game, and it won't end up mattering too much.

I am in agreement, at the time the vehicle designs just don't work for me. They do kind of remind me of hasbro-ish, not that it is a bad thing but it doesn't mix well with any other vehicles or forces I have. I like things that I can intermingle and there is no way I can mix them with my current stuff. I can however mix their troops and proxy in my own vehicles which I think will work out better.

It is possible once they see physical models I could change my mind, but right now they mostly look like fast attack vehicles. I don't think they will be a huge dominance in the game, at least I hope not, but if they are I'll stick with proxing some existing vehicles. I have an old Bulkhead from the Transformers Cartoon which fits the scale that I could modify anyways ^_^

YES FINALLY! This actually makes it easier to talk my friends into playing now. I was actually thinking they would go a different route by creating a new pledge, which gets you a 'customized core box'. It wouldn't be as much as a loss leader than Assault Trooper, but would be halfway between trying to start a complete new faction.... however I am good with this too. Well, we need to get to $85k, but as a stretch goal that is actually a great idea.

Ares vs. Riff (33 miniatures)
Ares vs. Sayx (33 miniatures)
Ares vs. Harvesters (33 miniatures)
Riffs vs. Sayx (38miniatures, +$15)
Riffs vs. Harvesters (38 miniatures, +$15)
Sayx vs. Harvesters (38 miniatures, +$15)

We are still tinkering with it a bit, but you can expect something like the following:
Ares - Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, Ares Troopers
Riffs - Fink, Sihlas, Officer, Heavy Weapon, Riff Troopers, Assault Troopers
Sayx - Tarko, Diane, Officer, Heavy Weapon, Sayx Troopers, Assault Troopers
Harvesters - Sphynx, Virus, Cybermasters, Necroslaves, Slave Warriors

Given the information, what we currently know about the forces and the break down of the boxes (after all they still want to sell boosters and vehicles) I am fairly certain the breakdown will be similar to below. These are supposed to be starters so I wouldn't expect other boosters because it could risk causing other issues or losing money, although with this change I'm certain it will definitely make their KS better. Unfortunately I don't know enough about the balance of the troopers to figure out which forces need more or less. This is all based on the initial core box, I'm assuming the Ares are the heavies and everything else is about on par (Harvesters given lore might be like Ares). So maybe a break down of something like this:

Ares vs Riff, 33 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals):
- Ares: Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers (14 miniatures)
- Riff: Fink, Sihals, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)

Ares vs Sayx, 33 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals):
- Ares: Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers (14 miniatures)
- Sayx: Tarko, Dianne, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)

Ares vs Harvesters, 33 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals):
- Ares: Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers (14 miniatures)
- Harvesters: Sphynx, Virus, 10 Necroslaves, 5 Slave Warriors, 2 Cybermasters (19 miniatures)

Riffs vs Sayx, 38 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals) +$15:
- Riff: Fink, Sihals, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)
- Sayx: Tarko, Dianne, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)

Riffs vs. Harvesters, 38 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals) +$15:
- Riff: Fink, Sihals, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)
- Harvesters: Sphynx, Virus, 10 Necroslaves, 5 Slave Warriors, 2 Cybermasters (19 miniatures)

Sayx vs. Harvesters, 38 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals) +$15:
- Sayx: Tarko, Dianne, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)
- Harvesters: Sphynx, Virus, 10 Necroslaves, 5 Slave Warriors, 2 Cybermasters (19 miniatures)

There might be some alternations depending on stats of troops, for example Harvesters may include 5 Necroslaves + 10 Slave Warriors or Sayx could be 5 Troopers + 10 Assault troopers instead. Without actual stats, knowing more about the game it is hard to guess what would be a more balanced starter set but it should be the above, give or take here and there.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:
Aside from them either having to make:
A - Multiple boxes for correct packaging, or
B - Making a single generic box.

Either way, neither is probably what they had planned for.

Not really. The Core Box is a KS Exclusive box anyways so it isn't a retail box and is designed only for this KS. The printing is being done in China and the miniature manufacturing done in Spain. I doubt they would send miniatures to China to box up, they will probably have the boxes sent in house and they will package them there. They are already going to have to put the items in the box to seal so they should already have a plan for that. They could outsource the packaging locally (someplace else doesn't make sense) so it really isn't something they have to worry about.

Historically KS have done this to a degree anyways. Set up an assembly line, move the box down and drop the items in. With the way they set up the packages (it isn't complete customization but it is WAY better than before), they could set up 6 rows and move through it fairly quickly.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
According to the comments Alpharius your final pledge price is $275 to get the 2 box sets.

That is correct. It would break down something like this:

Assault Trooper (Ares/Riff) with shipping to US, $105 + 25 = 130
Assault Trooper (Sayx/Harvesters) with shipping to US, $120 + 25 = 145
$145 + $130 = $275: 71 miniatures in total, $3.87 per miniature is a great value!

 cincydooley wrote:
I mean, that doesn't really follow. They were planning on doing a KS exclusive cover. Not the full box. Typically the back of your box details the contents. If they're now allowing for customizable ones, it could change the KS exclusive box considerably, meaning more work, meaning more areas something can be screwed up, meaning it's easily something that could stress a PM out.

I am not saying it wouldn't stress a PM out, any and all KS stress PMs out completely even when someone else is doing manufacturing. I am a Project Manager for my company, granted its different than a production manager but both positions are stressful in terms of deadlines, changes and delivery.

It does make sense what you mean by the back of the box, since it is a different cover from the commercial version. It depends on what they mean by cover, we haven't seen a real box, just concept and mockups. The cover could simply just be a sleeve, it all depends on what they define as 'cover' since technically a sleeve is a cover The mockup shows an actual cover though so it most likely won't be a sleeve. But I have unfortunately been disappointed by a couple KS that did that for their box. Even at GenCon Upper Deck were selling a GenCon exclusive VS box and it was simply a sleeve on a 800 count card box.

It is also possible the reason for the $85k goal, lets them increase their printing or make suitable changes so they could get multiple multiple box designs done. They could still have the one KS Exclusive cover with multiple different backs, although that would be a nightmare. It would probably be easier to print a separate KS exclusive box, includes back and front cover and then don't' make modifications to their existing retail boxes. A lot depends on what they are showing on the back of the box. Ideally the back lists contents, but some boxes show images of contents on the side (top cover) and have more a generic story or description on the back. It isn't usually ideal but becoming more popular for shelving reasons at a LGS. There are a few options but given the stretch goal I would believe that is covering the extra costs.

I'm still trying to figure out how they are going to MSRP that for retail, given the KS cost, whats in the box, distribution and markup... but that is a different discussion. They could do what some companies have done and simply deal with it all in house through a web-store and not distribute through retail stores.

 cincydooley wrote:
And that doesn't even consider that, if they do end up doing multiple boxes (6 of them for all possibilities), then that adds more QC work on the back end, where whomever is assembling the boxes has to ensure that the contents match the box. And while getting a package with the wrong back contents on it may not be a problem for you, or your friends, I think we're all realistic to understand that we're a part of a hobby where the demographic can assuredly be anal retentive and neckbeardy about things like that.

I am quite sure that there will be some that do get the wrong contents. It has happened to quite a few KS. I missed stuff from Krosmaster, Relic Knights, and Khaosball. They either had something extra or was missing items. In the terms of Krosmaster I ended up with a Miniatures Case that I didn't even order, on the plus side I was told to keep it. Not an ideal situation but that is standard as part of the job whenever you have multiple add-ons. Customization of a core box is really just an extension of that to a degree. It does add extra work and labor hours but there are ways to mitigate it with a good team, assembly line and final check person before sealing the package.

I believe the benefits are definitely going to outweigh the headache and risks. I can agree with your point about the statement being misleading. It probably should at least read something more like, "It shouldn't cause a production manager, much more issues or stress, given an operation where there is multiple distribution, sorting, packaging, planning involved with a KS campaign". KS campaigns at times are dynamic, some try to make plans and have everything set out but a lot of them tend to start to fly by the seat of their pants as modifications through-out the campaign.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
Single account with the ability to customise box contents but it will only be available once they hit 85k which I imagine be met at some point .

It was already asked if someone wanted to purchase an 'Additional Pledge' they would be able to do this. It isn't unheard of in KS. You simply increase your pledge amount by the 'other pledge' cost and shipping and add it to your existing pledge. When the Pledge Manager comes out later you will then be able to choose how it is distributed. You are able to do this even without hitting the $85 goal.

As an example if you were already an Assault Trooper pledge but interested in adding in the Faction pledge, you would just go to "Manage Your Pledge" and increase your pledge by $185 + whatever shipping would be for your region and that pledge. The total pledge without shipping would be $290.

 Alpharius wrote:
I guess there isn't a shipping hub in the USA?

$50 for shipping would seem high otherwise...

I am not sure if they are shipping through a distribution center in the US. I would guess no but $25 for the amount of resin miniatures, boxing, seems about right given where it is coming from. You would be ordering twice the amount. However since I could potentially add a plethora of Add-ons and not have it not increase my shipping, I believe that is helping to offset that otherwise it will end up costing them more money in shipping. Even currently I am going to guess shipping will end up being at least $5k over their estimates.

 cincydooley wrote:
I think the "fly by the seat of their pants attitude" is actually what gets a lot of these projects in trouble. The more rigid ones and the ones with fewer options and a more focused goal almost ALWAYS deliver in a more efficient manner, in regards to both quality and timeliness.

It really does depend on the project. Using FF as an example, to some degree it makes sense to have a Core Box if you base the model of of existing companies. Even Infinity Operation: Icestorm is a great idea even if you aren't interested in Nomads or PanOceania. However it is much cheaper and easier to switch armies in Infinity than it would be in FF. There is a decent secondary market for Infinity that a person could still sell the items off or trade for existing armies. Even by purchasing Icestorm you aren't necessarily locked into those two factions entirely. Dark Vengeance is also another great value with the ability to trade or sell of existing models.

Looking at similar examples they probably assumed that is a good direction. It isn't completely a bad direction but there are a lot of unknowns to take into effect. There isn't an existing customer base, there isn't an existing secondary market yet and it's a complete unknown. To them though they probably thought our universe is centered around the Ares and Riffs conflict, with other factions on the side. They want to share that story with everyone and those in their minds are the most interesting. There are however a ton more gamers and all their views differ, so some might like them and others may prefer other factions. I don't believe they considered how many would want to change factions. They probably thought the answer was the Faction pledge but from marketing it is worse. If me and a friend want to get involved 2 Faction Pledges don't make sense when the Core Box is so much value in it but the unknown if we can offload the other miniatures, incorporate them, etc makes one or both less likely to jump in and wait until retail.

With Video Games and Software project management it is an even bigger nightmare. We design certain aspects believing this is how the end user should use it. It makes complete sense to us, QA and the test groups. Once something goes public and live there will always be one or a group of people who figure out some method to exploit or do something that the team didn't think people would do. Then we have to go make modifications to either prevent or enhance on what they are trying to do.

Now the ones that have absolutely no clue and literally change every time a backer makes a suggestion, yep those are the worst. I tend to not back or at least get a placeholder. Sometimes it just seems like they fly by the seat of the pants but have really have plans set in place, it just doesn't feel like to someone looking in from the outside.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
Getting 'everything' for all 4 factions (except vehicles) with a 2 box pledge now would cost me $620.

$100 EB Starter + $120 for the additional starter + (X) for all the boosters and heroes that aren't included + $50 shipping.

Take the Harvesters out completely, and it drops to $470.

How are you getting the $470 or is that not including shipping? Not getting Harvesters I come up with the following options. I did this quickly so I might be missing something or adding something up wrong.

EB Starter (Ares/Riff) w/ shipping: $125
Trooper Pledge w/ shipping: $95
5 (7) Heroes Add-ons: $75
- Ares: Brett "Operator 79"
- Riff: Krull Baal
- Riff: Feral Senn
- Sayx: Tarko Stahlen
- Sayx: Dianne Tianseen
- Sayx: Bianca Carlsson (free part of pledge)
- Sayx: Jason Ramires (free part of pledge)
6 Boosters: $210
- Ares Light Infatry
- Ares Hyperion Armours
- Riff Berserkers
- Riff Hulks
- Sayx Nightstalkers (free part of pledge)
- Sayx Vulcans (free part of pledge)
1 Combat Force Add-on: $0 (free part of pledge)
- Sayx Combat Force

$505, without Harvesters and includes shipping.


EB Starter (Ares/Riff) w/ shipping: $125
Faction Pledge w/ shipping: $210
4 (6) Heroes Add-ons: $60
- Ares: Brett "Operator 79"
- Riff: Krull Baal
- Riff: Feral Senn
- Sayx: Tarko Stahlen
- Sayx: Dianne Tianseen (free part of pledge)
- Sayx: Bianca Carlsson (free part of pledge)
- Sayx: Jason Ramires (free part of pledge)
4 (6) Boosters: $140
- Ares Light Infatry
- Ares Hyperion Armours
- Riff Berserkers
- Riff Hulks
- Sayx Nightstalkers (free part of pledge)
- Sayx Vulcans (free part of pledge)
1 Combat Force Add-on: $0 (free part of pledge)
- Sayx Combat Force
1 Vehicle: (free part of pledge)

$535, this is also completely without any Harvesters. It ends up being cheaper, you basically get a free vehicle and you have room to add another Hero if a new one unlocks for one of those 3 factions.


EB Assault Trooper Starter (Ares/Riff) w/ shipping: $125
Assault Trooper (Riff/Sayx) w/ shipping: $130
5 Heroes Add-ons: $75
- Ares: Brett "Operator 79"
- Riff: Krull Baal
- Riff: Feral Senn
- Sayx: Bianca Carlsson
- Sayx: Jason Ramires
6 Boosters: $210
- Ares Light Infatry
- Ares Hyperion Armours
- Riff Berserkers
- Riff Hulks
- Sayx Nightstalkers
- Sayx Vulcans

$540, this completely without any Harvesters and buffing up the Riff army. You could also go Ares/Riff and Ares/Sayx, buffing up the Ares army and take $15 off. Another option is Ares/Riff and Sayx/Harvesters for the same price, but see about selling Harvesters.