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cincydooley wrote:This continues to look really good.
It REALLY does!
I'm looking forward to this one...
Anyway this:
Bacms wrote:On other news I don't believe this was posted here:http://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=hpaF-T6_G0E&u=/watch%3Fv%3DcTs92GmCwkk%26feature%3Dem-uploademail
deserves the Dakka Dakka Youtube Button Treatment!
Artemis Black wrote: What I have been critical of is the vague and misleading statements about various aspects of the kickstarter coming from whoever's in charge of that stuff and in fact the biggest things I complained about last kickstarter turned out to be 100% correct. The miniatures weren't the size they claimed and they weren't making stuff in plastic with the basic funding goal.
Except on day 1 on KS1 it was stated it was injection plastic and 35mm. It is all time stamped in their comments. When it was questioned what type of plastic is where it became vague because they didn't make any contracts and were waiting for the final results of the KS. Then it was stated some plastic, some metal... then later resin. Resin was finalized and in response to the back sliding because people didn't want cheap plastic and it didn't seem possible to HIPS given the amount of miniatures on the budget. Unfortunately since it wasn't budgeted around resin minatures there was no way they could of delivered those miniatures at the prices they were at without losing a lot of money.
That's mostly speculation, and it seems to be taking for granted that a company started a kickstarter having no idea how much anything they wanted to make would cost. Surely that's more insulting to Scale than just assuming they were having language problems or whatever the reasons touted around last time were. They repeatedly changed their mind on what the material was going to be and it also seemed liek there wasn't just one person giving the information. The most common answer was a vague 'we want to use plastic' rather than an outright 'These will be in HIPS', hence people repeatedly asking. In the end they admitted by their own actions that those pointing out that 90k wasn't enough money to make all that stuff in plastic were correct.
They chose 90k for their funding goal, I assume there was some maths used to pick that number. You can 'only' do those maths if you have production costs, so either they just made it up, had incorrect plastic costs, or they were using resin costs and were hoping to overfund (like many companies do) to produce it in plastic. The latter is the least insulting option I think.
Artemis Black wrote: If you have a Kickstarter for a 40mm product and you put up a render, or in this case a painted final figure, without mentioning 'at all' that it's a 75mm statue, it gives the message that 'that' is definitely what you are buying.
I can understand to a degree if they actually didn't have anything else to show. The pictures and miniatures from GenCon were not 75mm statues. In fact you can look at the 75mm version and compare it to the quality for their 35mm on as they have both pictures on their Facebook page. The miniatures looked really good in person.
You missed the part where the things they have to show were my reason for asking. The one mini that's been resculpted and made smaller is Bitsie and the smaller version is demonstrably worse. In fact I consider it a bad mini whereas the 75mm is fine. The other minis 'do' look fine but they were not resized 75mm minis so that again more proves my point than not.
Artemis Black wrote: No idea why they just can't say that it's a 75mm figure, most of their fans won't care anyway and it's more honest for the ones that do.
It is called marketing. Why do you think there isn't fine print in fashion magazines that say 'photoshop'. Even other gaming companies doctor their photos up or take pictures of larger models without saying they are larger models. The only thing that matters if the final product.
So your argument seems to be that while it is misleading, that's ok cos other people do that too? I've not seen other companies put up photos of large scale minis without mentioning that's what they are. I mean they might be out there but none have crossed my path. The closest I've seen are renders that people have mistaken for minis and they haven't been corrected, but that too is bad business practice and I would point it out if it landed in front of me. It 'should' be pointed out, it's not good.
Artemis Black wrote: What 'convention' would this be? I've worked in this industry for twenty years and sold hundreds of different companies products and haven't heard of this convention. 'Some' companies use a to the eyes measurement, pretty much zero companies use that eye measurement when telling you how big an individual miniature is unless they specify 'to the eyes', A measurement without that specification is an actual height.
Measurements to the eyes didn't start out as a standard. Historical wargames tend to be more truescale and measured to the tops of the head. The problem is that many companies were doing fancier, more detailed hair, larger helmets, etc and over the years it has been becoming a standard. Not stating that the measurement is specified to the eyes does not infer that it is the actual miniature height. Not to mention from the beginning they did state and specify that the measurement is to the eyes. But you are saying you won't say that because to be accurate, you would have to type out 'to the eyes', despite they have already stated that as their measurement.
If you ask someone how tall a mini is, you do not mean 'to the eyes'. They have been asked how tall actual minis are and have said 35mm. 'No' other company would do that that I know of, I have never once seen it happen before this kickstarter. Note I am not asking a vague 'what scale is your game in' cos as I'm about to reply to your second point, that's a mostly useless question anyway'.
Dark Severance wrote: Not to mention WH40k is advertised as 28mm heroic scale, but are closer to 32mm and depending on the race they can measure up to 28mm to the eyes and up to 35mm to the top of their heads. Infinity is also advertised as 28mm miniatures, they do not specify to the eyes. Not all the humans measure 28mm to the eyes, if we measured height to the top of the head they would be 35mm miniatures but it isn't advertised as a 35mm game. Wild West Exodus is advertised as 35mm miniatures and not all 35mm to the top of the head, some measure 32mm instead. Warzone is advertised as 32mm which is to the eyes, the miniatures are 35-40mm high (usually because of helmets) but when we refer to them we refer to 32mm, not 40mm. Even then it doesn't matter because races, factions, armor all change the height so they will vary... instead companies state "these miniatures are compatible with 28mm gaming" or "these will work with 32mm miniatures" or in this case "these are 35mm and do appear slightly bigger but still compatible with 32mm terrain.".
I agree with everything you just said, which is exactly why the point is important in the first place. Everything you listed above (with the exception of WWE) use one of the many scales which have basically become code for 'Matches ok with GW'. "28mm scale" 30mm heroic" "32mm" Whatever. They can all walk through doorways on GW scenery, they don't look like giants next to a Space Marine etc. It's annoying enough to those of us who work in the industry that half the companies use a d6 with one of the above on to identify their minis for marketing purposes instead of real measurements or scales but when a company who, and I'm trying to avoid the wrath of Ritides here, basically make 40mm tall minis which most definitely don't match with GW figures, classifies themselves as a '35mm scale' game then, to me, that's a step too far. There's marketing and then there's taking the mick. They even resized their minis to make some of them 'actually' 35mm to the eyes and still all of the minis in the boxset this Kickstarter is selling are '37mm to the eyes' or 40mm in regular speech.
I'm not calling them 40mm because somehow that's an insult, I'm calling them 40mm because I've pledged for the boxset and when I get that boxset and hold a ruler next to any of the 34 figures in it, by their own admission, all the measurements will start with a 4. If I was discussing Ultramarines and called them 33mm minis I am pretty certain I wouldn't get attacked for it (at least I hope not, I haven't spent enough time on dakka to actually state that with any certainty), because they 'are' 33mm minis despite them using '28mm scale' or whatever they use as a descriptor these days. How come with this company alone, telling the truth seems to be frowned upon?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 01:55:42
Artemis Black wrote: If I was discussing Ultramarines and called them 33mm minis I am pretty certain I wouldn't get attacked for it ... because they 'are' 33mm minis despite them using '28mm scale' or whatever they use as a descriptor these days. How come with this company alone, telling the truth seems to be frowned upon?
The problem is that you are mixing terms frequently. There is a distinct difference between saying "this model measures 60mm to the crown of it's head" versus "this model is 60mm scale".
If you were to say the latter regarding something, you most definitely would be disagreed with on Dakka, or anywhere that discusses miniatures. Your using the terms interchangeably makes it extremely hard to tell what you're talking about. When you say "40mm minis" it sounds like you're saying "40mm scale minis". Just like people say "28mm minis" referring to GW, or "32mm minis" referring to Privateer Press, or "35mm minis" referring to Kingdom Death or Arena Rex.
I don't need to have the last word here at all, so I'm going to give you a chance to respond to this post (or any others referring to scale in the interim).
However, after you've made one additional post regarding scale in the wargaming industry, I do ask that you take further discussion of it to an independent thread, and allow this one to focus on the Fallen Frontiers campaign.
We offer these same protections to any company posting a thread in N&R - some criticism is fine, but at some point people interested in the campaign have to be allowed to discuss it. Thanks for understanding and feel free to PM me if you have any questions whatsoever!
Artemis Black wrote: What I have been critical of is the vague and misleading statements about various aspects of the kickstarter coming from whoever's in charge of that stuff and in fact the biggest things I complained about last kickstarter turned out to be 100% correct. The miniatures weren't the size they claimed and they weren't making stuff in plastic with the basic funding goal.
Except on day 1 on KS1 it was stated it was injection plastic and 35mm. It is all time stamped in their comments. When it was questioned what type of plastic is where it became vague because they didn't make any contracts and were waiting for the final results of the KS. Then it was stated some plastic, some metal... then later resin. Resin was finalized and in response to the back sliding because people didn't want cheap plastic and it didn't seem possible to HIPS given the amount of miniatures on the budget. Unfortunately since it wasn't budgeted around resin minatures there was no way they could of delivered those miniatures at the prices they were at without losing a lot of money.
That's mostly speculation, and it seems to be taking for granted that a company started a kickstarter having no idea how much anything they wanted to make would cost. Surely that's more insulting to Scale than just assuming they were having language problems or whatever the reasons touted around last time were. They repeatedly changed their mind on what the material was going to be and it also seemed liek there wasn't just one person giving the information. The most common answer was a vague 'we want to use plastic' rather than an outright 'These will be in HIPS', hence people repeatedly asking. In the end they admitted by their own actions that those pointing out that 90k wasn't enough money to make all that stuff in plastic were correct.
They chose 90k for their funding goal, I assume there was some maths used to pick that number. You can 'only' do those maths if you have production costs, so either they just made it up, had incorrect plastic costs, or they were using resin costs and were hoping to overfund (like many companies do) to produce it in plastic. The latter is the least insulting option I think.
Artemis Black wrote: If you have a Kickstarter for a 40mm product and you put up a render, or in this case a painted final figure, without mentioning 'at all' that it's a 75mm statue, it gives the message that 'that' is definitely what you are buying.
I can understand to a degree if they actually didn't have anything else to show. The pictures and miniatures from GenCon were not 75mm statues. In fact you can look at the 75mm version and compare it to the quality for their 35mm on as they have both pictures on their Facebook page. The miniatures looked really good in person.
You missed the part where the things they have to show were my reason for asking. The one mini that's been resculpted and made smaller is Bitsie and the smaller version is demonstrably worse. In fact I consider it a bad mini whereas the 75mm is fine. The other minis 'do' look fine but they were not resized 75mm minis so that again more proves my point than not.
Artemis Black wrote: No idea why they just can't say that it's a 75mm figure, most of their fans won't care anyway and it's more honest for the ones that do.
It is called marketing. Why do you think there isn't fine print in fashion magazines that say 'photoshop'. Even other gaming companies doctor their photos up or take pictures of larger models without saying they are larger models. The only thing that matters if the final product.
So your argument seems to be that while it is misleading, that's ok cos other people do that too? I've not seen other companies put up photos of large scale minis without mentioning that's what they are. I mean they might be out there but none have crossed my path. The closest I've seen are renders that people have mistaken for minis and they haven't been corrected, but that too is bad business practice and I would point it out if it landed in front of me. It 'should' be pointed out, it's not good.
Artemis Black wrote: What 'convention' would this be? I've worked in this industry for twenty years and sold hundreds of different companies products and haven't heard of this convention. 'Some' companies use a to the eyes measurement, pretty much zero companies use that eye measurement when telling you how big an individual miniature is unless they specify 'to the eyes', A measurement without that specification is an actual height.
Measurements to the eyes didn't start out as a standard. Historical wargames tend to be more truescale and measured to the tops of the head. The problem is that many companies were doing fancier, more detailed hair, larger helmets, etc and over the years it has been becoming a standard. Not stating that the measurement is specified to the eyes does not infer that it is the actual miniature height. Not to mention from the beginning they did state and specify that the measurement is to the eyes. But you are saying you won't say that because to be accurate, you would have to type out 'to the eyes', despite they have already stated that as their measurement.
If you ask someone how tall a mini is, you do not mean 'to the eyes'. They have been asked how tall actual minis are and have said 35mm. 'No' other company would do that that I know of, I have never once seen it happen before this kickstarter. Note I am not asking a vague 'what scale is your game in' cos as I'm about to reply to your second point, that's a mostly useless question anyway'.
Dark Severance wrote: Not to mention WH40k is advertised as 28mm heroic scale, but are closer to 32mm and depending on the race they can measure up to 28mm to the eyes and up to 35mm to the top of their heads. Infinity is also advertised as 28mm miniatures, they do not specify to the eyes. Not all the humans measure 28mm to the eyes, if we measured height to the top of the head they would be 35mm miniatures but it isn't advertised as a 35mm game. Wild West Exodus is advertised as 35mm miniatures and not all 35mm to the top of the head, some measure 32mm instead. Warzone is advertised as 32mm which is to the eyes, the miniatures are 35-40mm high (usually because of helmets) but when we refer to them we refer to 32mm, not 40mm. Even then it doesn't matter because races, factions, armor all change the height so they will vary... instead companies state "these miniatures are compatible with 28mm gaming" or "these will work with 32mm miniatures" or in this case "these are 35mm and do appear slightly bigger but still compatible with 32mm terrain.".
I agree with everything you just said, which is exactly why the point is important in the first place. Everything you listed above (with the exception of WWE) use one of the many scales which have basically become code for 'Matches ok with GW'. "28mm scale" 30mm heroic" "32mm" Whatever. They can all walk through doorways on GW scenery, they don't look like giants next to a Space Marine etc. It's annoying enough to those of us who work in the industry that half the companies use a d6 with one of the above on to identify their minis for marketing purposes instead of real measurements or scales but when a company who, and I'm trying to avoid the wrath of Ritides here, basically make 40mm tall minis which most definitely don't match with GW figures, classifies themselves as a '35mm scale' game then, to me, that's a step too far. There's marketing and then there's taking the mick. They even resized their minis to make some of them 'actually' 35mm to the eyes and still all of the minis in the boxset this Kickstarter is selling are '37mm to the eyes' or 40mm in regular speech.
I'm not calling them 40mm because somehow that's an insult, I'm calling them 40mm because I've pledged for the boxset and when I get that boxset and hold a ruler next to any of the 34 figures in it, by their own admission, all the measurements will start with a 4. If I was discussing Ultramarines and called them 33mm minis I am pretty certain I wouldn't get attacked for it (at least I hope not, I haven't spent enough time on dakka to actually state that with any certainty), because they 'are' 33mm minis despite them using '28mm scale' or whatever they use as a descriptor these days. How come with this company alone, telling the truth seems to be frowned upon?
I feel like most of this can be summed up by the point made in the Painting Buddha video. Its a 35mm scale. The humans ARE 35mm but other others that are not human are taller or shorter. Of course this is also basic logic. I do not expect my goblin in a 28mm scale to be 28mm and I don't expect a 9 foot alien and superhuman spliced alien to be as tall as a human. They should loom over them cause... well cause they are huge. So if the humans are the smallest species and they are 35mm to the eye its a 35mm scale. It just so happens that 2 of the factions are bigger than the humans and thats ok! (I assume the harvesters are as tall as humans as most of them seem to be undead humans.
As a side note, that is more on topic, does this make sense- If I pledge $1 now and then up the pledge to the assault trooper afterwards will I still get all the benefits/stretch goals of it? Cause I want the stretch goals but honestly between the holidays and the Antenocitis KS I have basically no cash.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 03:23:11
As a side note, that is more on topic, does this make sense- If I pledge $1 now and then up the pledge to the assault trooper afterwards will I still get all the benefits/stretch goals of it? Cause I want the stretch goals but honestly between the holidays and the Antenocitis KS I have basically no cash.
I think this will be possible, but best to get extra for certain confirmation to be safe!
Artemis Black wrote: You missed the part where the things they have to show were my reason for asking. The one mini that's been resculpted and made smaller is Bitsie and the smaller version is demonstrably worse. In fact I consider it a bad mini whereas the 75mm is fine. The other minis 'do' look fine but they were not resized 75mm minis so that again more proves my point than not.
Spoiler:
A couple of them were actually re-sized to be created when they took them to GenCon. You can tell there are some slight differences from their painted 75mm version, but it isn't very noticeably. The issues could be chalked up more to paint job than anything. Is that the final production version that is going to print and be produced from? No it isn't. They already stated that all the miniatures will need to be slightly reworked and touched up for production and manufacturing. It is no different than seeing a concept render or sculpt. Half the renders shown for Robotech RPG Tactics didn't turn out the way shown in the final version either. Some were better and others were worse but we all knew those weren't the final production renders. People aren't completely blind or stupid but you are expecting final results when we haven't even gotten through the door yet. Also repeating the same thing over and over again like a broken record still doesn't change the fact they don't have anything else to show yet, that is sort the whole point for a Kickstarter to continue or get funding to complete, finalize or produce.
Artemis Black wrote: So your argument seems to be that while it is misleading, that's ok cos other people do that too?
Spoiler:
It is neither misleading nor leading. That is all based on your interpretation and perception. They have not stated that is the final render and that is the production model. Not to mention standard practice would be create your test version, make sure it passes, then create your final master for it. You don't just render, print and go to production. I can understand questioning but if you don't think a company knows how to run through a production, or don't have faith they will put out a good quality product to make customers happy then why bother backing. I've seen what they have been done, been happy with the quality so far so I am assuming they will provide the same quality they have been providing all along. Even then there is no guarantee, they are human and even great companies don't always have great sculpts. I like some things from Hasslefree and other things I think are way off. However I'm not going to actively keep going off on saying everything is crap and its all horrible or try to tell them how to run their company. I buy what I like, don't buy what I don't like... it is really that simple.
Artemis Black wrote: If you ask someone how tall a mini is, you do not mean 'to the eyes'. They have been asked how tall actual minis are and have said 35mm. 'No' other company would do that that I know of, I have never once seen it happen before this kickstarter.
Spoiler:
You can not always give accurate measurement of how tall a miniature is because it changes with hairstyle, type, pose, race that is why it has been changing. If I said my human was 50mm tall and someone gets it and decides to use the helmet that was 10mm tall (I know exaggeration and poor example), now the miniature is really 40mm. Now I'm going to be accused of lying because the miniature was really 40mm. The level from the bottom of the feet to eye level should never change, no matter what helmet or crazy hairstyle a miniature has. That is why it has been becoming the industry standard. Considering not all the miniatures are fully produced or posed I don't think there is anyone who can provide "true scale" measurements for every miniature in their line in the beginning of the Kickstarter. And if they did provide them, would anyone believe them without actually seeing the miniature next to a ruler (the answer is no as it has been proven).
Fallen Frontiers state in their FAQ:"The scale of our miniatures is 35mm to the eyes and are therefore compatible with other miniatures and scenery on the market. This means that a 1,80m tall human in a standing pose is 38mm tall from head to sole, which is also known as 1:48 scale (American O scale).
However, being either alien or super humans, some faction models in Fallen Frontiers game are slightly larger than regular humans. An Ares for example is 37mm tall from eyes to sole."
Now I can understand that is where you may be taking, "it's going to be a 40mm tall miniature", at least for Ares who aren't true humans but that is assuming the character is in a straight pose. They are going to be posed which means they won't be measuring or standing that way completely, there will be variance from 1-4mm. Just because you have not seen something, even given your experience, doesn't mean it does not happen or that you happen to be the industry only expert. There is no one true right way. You are right I have never seen it happen either... wait, there are actually quite a few companies that do this.
Kingdom Death in their FAQ:"Kingdom Death minis are all 35mm which is comparable to 28mm heroic. For reference, please check out this size comparison shot of an earlier KD miniature:"
It looks likes a 40mm tall miniature, yet being called 35mm and "comparable to 28mm heroic".
Warprime: "Our miniatures will be scaled to the same size as the most popular 28mm miniatures games. This means that most humans will be approximately 28mm to eye level while other units like our heavy armored Lancers will be closer to 32mm."
Dungeon Saga:"The miniatures are the industry standard 28-30mm scale (distance from base to eye level for a human figure), and are therefore compatible with the vast majority of other miniatures on the market."
I really don't have the time or energy to bother scouring them all to keep proving a point. What you are really referring to or trying to say is 'true scale', which some companies that actually are talking about full measurements from sole to top of head tend to say 'True Scale'.
MERCS Recon:"MERCS Miniatures are sculpted in true 35mm scale. When we say 35mm scale you know you can count on a figure that's representing a 6" tall human male stands 35mm from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head. Most figures in the MERCS Miniatures line will fall into this size height, however MERCS is a dynamic figure line so some figures may be shorter or taller to reflect the various shapes and sizes of characters we create."
Even though this is true scale miniature, measured 35mm from the bootom of their feet to the top of their heard, they are still compatible with WH40K. Not all of them even fully measure to 35mm can appear smaller than 30mm. That is why there is so much discrepancy in the industry and another reason for leaning towards a standard. So now are they liars because their miniatures didn't actually measure 35mm? Should we go after them and claim that their measurements are all completely wrong and they are really 30mm or call them all 30mm?
Artemis Black wrote: They can all walk through doorways on GW scenery, they don't look like giants next to a Space Marine etc. It's annoying enough to those of us who work in the industry that half the companies use a d6 with one of the above on to identify their minis for marketing purposes instead of real measurements or scales but when a company who, and I'm trying to avoid the wrath of Ritides here, basically make 40mm tall minis which most definitely don't match with GW figures, classifies themselves as a '35mm scale' game then, to me, that's a step too far. There's marketing and then there's taking the mick. They even resized their minis to make some of them 'actually' 35mm to the eyes and still all of the minis in the boxset this Kickstarter is selling are '37mm to the eyes' or 40mm in regular speech.
Spoiler:
Can you link me to where there are measurements of everything in the boxset? Did you also look at the previous miniatures comparison post and miniatures terrain post I made? They won't look like giants to space marines, although space marines will always look fat. The miniatures also shouldn't have any issues walking through doorways on GW scenery. Yes the heavy armor may but its heavy armor, we aren't expecting a Dreadnought to walk through the doorway. My eldar have trouble going through doorways as it is, good thing we suspend reality in miniature gaming.
Artemis Black wrote: I'm not calling them 40mm because somehow that's an insult, I'm calling them 40mm because I've pledged for the boxset and when I get that boxset and hold a ruler next to any of the 34 figures in it, by their own admission, all the measurements will start with a 4. If I was discussing Ultramarines and called them 33mm minis I am pretty certain I wouldn't get attacked for it (at least I hope not, I haven't spent enough time on dakka to actually state that with any certainty), because they 'are' 33mm minis despite them using '28mm scale' or whatever they use as a descriptor these days. How come with this company alone, telling the truth seems to be frowned upon?
Spoiler:
Except as I have shown they are not all going to end with a 4, some of them even to the top of their head are 38mm. Some will be taller, some shorter depending on race, armor and pose. Now if we are talking about a specific measurement to one of the miniatures, a race or certain class of that specific miniature that would be a different thing. The difference is you keep referring to the whole product line as 40mm, even when they've stated their measurements, how they classify and what their standards are which is 35mm. You seem intent on trying to push your own views or standards perceiving they are wrong because you have the only valid method. It may not be how you measure and that is fine but that is how they measured and defined it. When we talk about WH40K we don't specifically talk about individual miniatures, unless someone said "How big is that Ultramarine" or they were specifically talking just about the Ultramarines height. The whole line is referred to as 28mm heroic scale. Just like I don't refer to my Eldar as 35mm because that is how tall they are, they are still are referred to as 28mm. Or in more technical terms, they are comparable and compatible with 28-32mm gaming materials. If I went around claiming that all of WH40K were 40mm and should not be classified as 28mm because my Tyranid measured that... pretty sure people would have a problem with it as well.
@Artemis Black - I just want you to know overall I prefer to think that everyone has good intentions and aren't trying to be jerks and sabotage things. I always like to think that even though people may not agree or communicate on the same wave length, they are trying to be of a benefit. Granted that isn't always the case but I always try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I don't think you are trying to ruin things but it does make it hard and skeptical for others, when the same thing is hashed over and over. It also doesn't help that this is currently the only Kickstarter listed that you are a backer of, which is probably why you get a lot of resistance too. It tends to make people feel like the intentions may not be the best or you may have joined just to cause discord. I do understand that doesn't necessarily mean you've never backed other kickstarters, I have a couple accounts, some I've used to sell pledges for and others so I can double up on some things so not everything I backed appears under mine either. Even though I don't agree with what you saying a good portion of the time and think your perceptions are mixed up and don't match mine. I know sometimes when there are discussions with lots of quoting back and forth between people, it can seem or start to be taken personal, and want you to know I don't have any bad feelings or hostile intentions towards you. I just simply don't see it the same way or agree.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClockworkChaos wrote: I feel like most of this can be summed up by the point made in the Painting Buddha video. Its a 35mm scale. The humans ARE 35mm but other others that are not human are taller or shorter. Of course this is also basic logic. I do not expect my goblin in a 28mm scale to be 28mm and I don't expect a 9 foot alien and superhuman spliced alien to be as tall as a human. They should loom over them cause... well cause they are huge. So if the humans are the smallest species and they are 35mm to the eye its a 35mm scale. It just so happens that 2 of the factions are bigger than the humans and thats ok! (I assume the harvesters are as tall as humans as most of them seem to be undead humans.
That is a good point to which I want to add. Ares are not considered humans, they are larger sized human-like race genetically altered for war making them bigger and bulkier. Sayx are whom would be defined more closely as human, even though they were also modified but they weren't created to be the big bulks like Ares were.
ClockworkChaos wrote: As a side note, that is more on topic, does this make sense- If I pledge $1 now and then up the pledge to the assault trooper afterwards will I still get all the benefits/stretch goals of it?
The answer is yes. You can pledge afterwards and still get the benefits of the stretch goals if you upgrade to a pledge that has stretch goals. They answered it in the comments section of Update 6.
SCALE GAMES LLC: Yes, changing to higher pledges from $1 after the Kickstarter will give you access to the stretch goals.
The $1 pledge was one of the recommendations I pushed for given the multiple KS and the holidays going on now. It really was in their best interest to have had that and I'm glad they listened. On the plus side... I have also been told they are looking into the other suggestion about coming up with a method for more of a customization of the Core Box set. That doesn't mean it will happen but I can hope. I know if they do allow it, there are at least a few people I know who would finally back as that is the only thing holding them back.
Edited: Added in spoiler tags so no one would take a critical hit from the wall of text.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/11/18 05:06:39
Artemis Black wrote: If I was discussing Ultramarines and called them 33mm minis I am pretty certain I wouldn't get attacked for it ... because they 'are' 33mm minis despite them using '28mm scale' or whatever they use as a descriptor these days. How come with this company alone, telling the truth seems to be frowned upon?
The problem is that you are mixing terms frequently. There is a distinct difference between saying "this model measures 60mm to the crown of it's head" versus "this model is 60mm scale".
If you were to say the latter regarding something, you most definitely would be disagreed with on Dakka, or anywhere that discusses miniatures. Your using the terms interchangeably makes it extremely hard to tell what you're talking about. When you say "40mm minis" it sounds like you're saying "40mm scale minis". Just like people say "28mm minis" referring to GW, or "32mm minis" referring to Privateer Press, or "35mm minis" referring to Kingdom Death or Arena Rex.
I don't need to have the last word here at all, so I'm going to give you a chance to respond to this post (or any others referring to scale in the interim).
However, after you've made one additional post regarding scale in the wargaming industry, I do ask that you take further discussion of it to an independent thread, and allow this one to focus on the Fallen Frontiers campaign.
We offer these same protections to any company posting a thread in N&R - some criticism is fine, but at some point people interested in the campaign have to be allowed to discuss it. Thanks for understanding and feel free to PM me if you have any questions whatsoever!
Out of interest, where am I mixing terms? I don't believe I am, I've not called this Kickstarter '40mm scale' I have said that their minis are 40mm, because that is the height of, so far, the majority of their miniatures and both of the races in the main boxset. They can call their game, 36.2mm scale or FF scale or 20mm uber mega heroic scale, it doesn't change what 'I' would call the individual minis, which is the actual size of them. When talking about the new Tarko Stahlen I 'have' described it as 38mm, because it is. When we see more humans and apparently Harvester, if they are all 38mm then that may change things but Scale have also said that heroes are larger, so if 2 of the 4 races are 40mm or larger and the heroes of the other 2 races are larger than 38mm also then the majority of figures they make are larger than 38mm, making the guy calling them '40mm minis' the only one here talking any sense.
I don't use '40mm scale', mostly because it's meaningless. You can't actually have a mm based 'scale', mm is reserved for height. Any use of a mm scale is basically, as I've said, a proxy for 'meh, somewhere about this height'. Which is fine if that's what you want to know, but if someone asks 'Hey, how tall is this mini' or 'how tall is this race', you'd better be giving an actual height, and not to the eyes. I would fire someone for answering such a simple question with such a stupid answer.
(Well I probably wouldn't because labour laws are a little stricter than that but rest assured they would not give such a stupid answer twice)
Dark Severance wrote: A couple of them were actually re-sized to be created when they took them to GenCon. You can tell there are some slight differences from their painted 75mm version, but it isn't very noticeably. The issues could be chalked up more to paint job than anything. Is that the final production version that is going to print and be produced from? No it isn't. They already stated that all the miniatures will need to be slightly reworked and touched up for production and manufacturing. It is no different than seeing a concept render or sculpt. Half the renders shown for Robotech RPG Tactics didn't turn out the way shown in the final version either. Some were better and others were worse but we all knew those weren't the final production renders. People aren't completely blind or stupid but you are expecting final results when we haven't even gotten through the door yet. Also repeating the same thing over and over again like a broken record still doesn't change the fact they don't have anything else to show yet, that is sort the whole point for a Kickstarter to continue or get funding to complete, finalize or produce.
Nobody is expecting final results, hence why I haven't requested that. I have stated that it is misleading to show a large scale miniature 'without mentioning that fact'. Note that if they showed the 75mm 'and' mentioned that fact I would have zero complaint. From a company that lied about the size of miniatures last time around I expect them to make mroe of an effort to not be misleading and frnakly I'd expect any company to be more upfront than that anyway.
(I also find it disingenuous to accuse someone of saying the same thing over and over when the reason we are still talking is because you are doing the exact same thing to me)
Dark Severance wrote: It is neither misleading nor leading. That is all based on your interpretation and perception. They have not stated that is the final render and that is the production model. Not to mention standard practice would be create your test version, make sure it passes, then create your final master for it. You don't just render, print and go to production. I can understand questioning but if you don't think a company knows how to run through a production, or don't have faith they will put out a good quality product to make customers happy then why bother backing. I've seen what they have been done, been happy with the quality so far so I am assuming they will provide the same quality they have been providing all along. Even then there is no guarantee, they are human and even great companies don't always have great sculpts. I like some things from Hasslefree and other things I think are way off. However I'm not going to actively keep going off on saying everything is crap and its all horrible or try to tell them how to run their company. I buy what I like, don't buy what I don't like... it is really that simple.[/quote[
I'm afraid not. You have made a simple strawman by associating my simple logical questioning with 'saying things are crap', which I have not done. And stating that they also haven't said that it's the final model is just a silly argument.
Dark Severance wrote: You can not always give accurate measurement of how tall a miniature is because it changes with hairstyle, type, pose, race that is why it has been changing. If I said my human was 50mm tall and someone gets it and decides to use the helmet that was 10mm tall (I know exaggeration and poor example), now the miniature is really 40mm. Now I'm going to be accused of lying because the miniature was really 40mm. The level from the bottom of the feet to eye level should never change, no matter what helmet or crazy hairstyle a miniature has. That is why it has been becoming the industry standard. Considering not all the miniatures are fully produced or posed I don't think there is anyone who can provide "true scale" measurements for every miniature in their line in the beginning of the Kickstarter. And if they did provide them, would anyone believe them without actually seeing the miniature next to a ruler (the answer is no as it has been proven).
I have no idea what any of this is? Nobody has asked for the measurement of a miniature with a silly hat or a silly pose? This is just random general discussion. Most of these guys (berserkers excepted) are just standing there. If asked for the height of any mini they should be able to answer it in seconds. Hell even if it has got a silly height it's damn easy to estimate the head measurement anyway, again, I've been doing this for twenty years. I have no idea why anyone thinks that if you asked a mini company how tall a mini was that you'd get the answer back 'to the eyes', go try it, see what happens.
Dark Severance wrote: Now I can understand that is where you may be taking, "it's going to be a 40mm tall miniature", at least for Ares who aren't true humans but that is assuming the character is in a straight pose. They are going to be posed which means they won't be measuring or standing that way completely, there will be variance from 1-4mm. Just because you have not seen something, even given your experience, doesn't mean it does not happen or that you happen to be the industry only expert. There is no one true right way. You are right I have never seen it happen either... wait, there are actually quite a few companies that do this.
<snipped>
I really don't have the time or energy to bother scouring them all to keep proving a point.
Good, because that's not a point. Well it was, it just wasn't a point that's relevant to the discussion. I already said all of the above, companies randomly describe their minis for marketing purposes. That does 'not' mean that people should be censored into using their made up definitions. If talking about minis of a certain height I'm going to use that height, anything else is simply stupid.
Dark Severance wrote: What you are really referring to or trying to say is 'true scale'[/u][/b], which some companies that actually are talking about full measurements from sole to top of head tend to say 'True Scale'.
I can assure you I am not trying to say another made up marketing term.
Dark Severance wrote: MERCS Recon:"MERCS Miniatures are sculpted in true 35mm scale. When we say 35mm scale you know you can count on a figure that's representing a 6" tall human male stands 35mm from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head. Most figures in the MERCS Miniatures line will fall into this size height, however MERCS is a dynamic figure line so some figures may be shorter or taller to reflect the various shapes and sizes of characters we create."
Even though this is true scale miniature, measured 35mm from the bootom of their feet to the top of their heard, they are still compatible with WH40K. Not all of them even fully measure to 35mm can appear smaller than 30mm. That is why there is so much discrepancy in the industry and another reason for leaning towards a standard. So now are they liars because their miniatures didn't actually measure 35mm? Should we go after them and claim that their measurements are all completely wrong and they are really 30mm or call them all 30mm?
If you wanted to, but it would be silly because they have gone out of their way to tell you that their minis will be different heights already and as I know the guys at MERCs I'm pretty sure that if you went on their facebook and asked them how tall any mini of theirs was they'd tell you the actual answer. Also they don't have that as their scale and then produce 60 percent of miniatures not in it.
(Also, i have no idea if it matters but the 2 minis in that comparison are from the first batch released before they even had a game, no idea if they have become larger but that does sometimes happen a la Infinity so the text may refer to currently manufactured minis)
Dark Severance wrote: Can you link me to where there are measurements of everything in the boxset? Did you also look at the previous miniatures comparison post and miniatures terrain post I made? They won't look like giants to space marines, although space marines will always look fat. The miniatures also shouldn't have any issues walking through doorways on GW scenery. Yes the heavy armor may but its heavy armor, we aren't expecting a Dreadnought to walk through the doorway. My eldar have trouble going through doorways as it is, good thing we suspend reality in miniature gaming.
The boxset is full of Riff and Ares. I don't need to point to anything, Scale Games are the ones saying those two races are larger than humans and that the heroes are larger again than regular troops. In this case your argument would be with them, not me.
And a 40mm tall miniature will, of course, look like giants next to a 33mm space marine. Feel free to take that comparison pic and see how it goes.
Dark Severance wrote: Except as I have shown they are not all going to end with a 4, some of them even to the top of their head are 38mm. Some will be taller, some shorter depending on race, armor and pose. Now if we are talking about a specific measurement to one of the miniatures, a race or certain class of that specific miniature that would be a different thing. The difference is you keep referring to the whole product line as 40mm, even when they've stated their measurements, how they classify and what their standards are which is 35mm.
You haven't shown that, unless you are talking about something I've missed? The box set is full of the larger races. The only mini shown not be standing pretty much straight up is Sihlas Fenn and he has shown by Scale Games to be 40mm even bent over like that, so he's like a 50mm mini.
Dark Severance wrote: You seem intent on trying to push your own views or standards perceiving they are wrong because you have the only valid method. It may not be how you measure and that is fine but that is how they measured and defined it. When we talk about WH40K we don't specifically talk about individual miniatures, unless someone said "How big is that Ultramarine" or they were specifically talking just about the Ultramarines height. The whole line is referred to as 28mm heroic scale. Just like I don't refer to my Eldar as 35mm because that is how tall they are, they are still are referred to as 28mm. Or in more technical terms, they are comparable and compatible with 28-32mm gaming materials. If I went around claiming that all of WH40K were 40mm and should not be classified as 28mm because my Tyranid measured that... pretty sure people would have a problem with it as well.
Of course they would, but again more strawman as nobody is doing that. If GW had a kickstarter that was mostly Tyranids and said the Kickstarter was '28mm scale' without bothering to mention that the Tyranids were 54mm tall or showing any comparison photos for them or ruler shots however people 'would' have a problem with that.
I know this from personal experience because Dark Age did it with the Dragyri. I received a large number of complaints from early customers before I could update the website to say their actual size (Dark Age is also '28mm/30mm/whatever random thing means like GW' but the Dragyri are basically 50+mm minis as they are meant to be 9ft tall+).
This kickstarter has one ruler shot for a human, and one ruler shot for an Ares. That's it. And it shows the Ares as 40mm and the human as 38mm. There's also one comparison shot where it's shown the bent over Sihlas Fenn is the same size as the Ares guy. Everything else is just going on what they've said themselves.
Dark Severance wrote: It also doesn't help that this is currently the only Kickstarter listed that you are a backer of, which is probably why you get a lot of resistance too. It tends to make people feel like the intentions may not be the best or you may have joined just to cause discord. I do understand that doesn't necessarily mean you've never backed other kickstarters, I have a couple accounts, some I've used to sell pledges for and others so I can double up on some things so not everything I backed appears under mine either. Even though I don't agree with what you saying a good portion of the time and think your perceptions are mixed up and don't match mine. I know sometimes when there are discussions with lots of quoting back and forth between people, it can seem or start to be taken personal, and want you to know I don't have any bad feelings or hostile intentions towards you. I just simply don't see it the same way or agree.
Actually this 'is' the only Kickstarter I have personally backed (I have backed as HF too, just to show support to friends). As a retailer I get stuff at a discount anyway so don't usually care about the KS discounts and haven't yet seen any KS exclusives that I just have to have. I backed this one simply because they have priced it so insanely cheap that I don't believe that even as a retailer I will get it this cheap again. I've only backed for the box set as if I want the heroes I 'will' be able to use a retailer discount in the future for those, plus I only really like the Riff anyway, the Sayx are an excellent design but as humans are, and not intending to be sarcastic here, simply too big to go with anything else I own.
(It's my professional opinion that they will realise this themselves during the fulfillment stage)
However, as I could discuss it here even without being a backer and have only commented on the actual KS twice (because someone was annoying me repeatedly saying the last kickstarter was in plastic) it's not really much of an anti-me point. Backer or not this conversation would still be happening.
And for the record I don't take it personally either. I don't know you or pretty much anyone who has made any anti-me remarks (not including you in the latter) so it would be rather silly of me too. The trolling ones I always just find amusing, hence getting into trouble with Ritides for being sarcastic about it. The actual discussion posts, like this, are just fine. I'm not sad enough to care that someone disagrees with me
I have a question for you. If you saw a kickstarter for a pack of actual fantasy giants, no ruler shot, no comparison shot and you asked them 'How big are your minis' and they said 'They are in 28mm scale' with no further info, how annoyed would you be?
For me, that is literally the most useless answer they could have given outside of just saying 'potato'. How come that doesn't apply to closer in size cases? The boxset is the main focus of this Kickstarter, there are zero humans in it, so knowing the 'scale of the humans' is useless to a customer buying the boxset. Knowing the 'size' of the minis in the boxset is the useful measurement, and by Scale Games own accounts they are 40mm tall. That's why I objected, despite humans being the norm generally, to FF using them as their scale. They aren't in the box set, which indicates they aren't the focus of the universe. They just happen to be shorter and therefore allow them to use a smaller number and appeal to a larger audience. It's marketing flim flam, which again, isn't remotely unique to this company, but I'll be damned if I'm going to use it in normal conversation.
ClockworkChaos wrote: As a side note, that is more on topic, does this make sense- If I pledge $1 now and then up the pledge to the assault trooper afterwards will I still get all the benefits/stretch goals of it?
The answer is yes. You can pledge afterwards and still get the benefits of the stretch goals if you upgrade to a pledge that has stretch goals. They answered it in the comments section of Update 6.
SCALE GAMES LLC: Yes, changing to higher pledges from $1 after the Kickstarter will give you access to the stretch goals.
The $1 pledge was one of the recommendations I pushed for given the multiple KS and the holidays going on now. It really was in their best interest to have had that and I'm glad they listened. On the plus side... I have also been told they are looking into the other suggestion about coming up with a method for more of a customization of the Core Box set. That doesn't mean it will happen but I can hope. I know if they do allow it, there are at least a few people I know who would finally back as that is the only thing holding them back.
Ok, thanks! That is great to hear. I need to see if I can warm up to the Ares now. If they give that new hidden stretch goal female hero as a free add-on then I would be down. She looks pretty awesome.
Artemis Black wrote: Out of interest, where am I mixing terms? I don't believe I am, I've not called this Kickstarter '40mm scale' I have said that their minis are 40mm, because that is the height of, so far, the majority of their miniatures and both of the races in the main boxset. They can call their game, 36.2mm scale or FF scale or 20mm uber mega heroic scale, it doesn't change what 'I' would call the individual minis, which is the actual size of them.
Spoiler:
You flip flop here and there although you may not realize it. Sometimes you refer to the actual true height, other times scale and sometimes both. Here you start explaining the reason you call them 40mm because of the height:
I have said that their minis are 40mm, because that is the height of, so far, the majority of their miniatures and both of the races in the main boxset.
Now you talk about the confusion surrounding scales but you are actually talking about the true height:
Despite the confusion surrounding the scales it's more about them using old, even larger minis, for images than what they've said, which is that the Sayx are 38mm and the Ares and Riff are 40mm plus.
Talking about scale but leading into height by mentioning sizes and saying you need to be transparent:
As someone who works in the miniatures world I am very aware of the necessity to make your 'scale' or miniatures sizes transparent and answer any questions about such succinctly and correctly.
Now you are explaining about how you would describe scale, that it should be the height or an average. The last time I checked I'm fairly sure WH40K isn't 28mm average. I don't know many games, unless they only have humans, that could even do this.:
So far, of all the miniatures FF have shown actualy made, the smallest race, the Sayx, are shown as 35mm to the eyes only, or 38mm tall. The rest of the minis currently shown as a real product not a render, are 40mm or even considerably taller. I wouldn't describe a games scales to the eyes in the first place, but even if I did I'd try for more of an average than just using one race who happens to be the shortest. To me this will always be a 40mm game, to avoid confusion at the least and accusations of being misleading to garner more sales at the worst.
Keep in mind the only confusion still seems to with what you believe and have defined. There hasn't been any confusion from the beginning because they have defined it clearly what size the miniatures are, outlining how they are measuring it. It is just you refuse to call it that because it doesn't match up with your personal opinion, perspective and ideas. You claim it is confusing and misleading, except it is clearly outlined in their FAQ and front pages:
However in this reboot they haven't lied about anything as far as I can see, my complaints were more of a 'please stop using larger minis without clarifying they are indeed larger, it's confusing' and that personally I would never call this game "35mm" in a million years.
We use it 'on that miniature' because she has a mohican so it's a shorter alternative than '25mm to the top of her head but not to the top of her hair' etc. Plus I didn't write that particular description or it may have said the long form anyway (Now that you've pointed it out to me it'll be changed after our premisesmove) However you will note it goes out of it's way to actually 'say' to the eye', it doesn't just say '25mm scale' and make you guess what that means.
Even though it was pointed out multiple times where it was done, it was ok because it goes out of its way to actually say to the eye. Which is apparently exactly what they do in their FAQ but somehow that isn't ok. And the other companies that also do it, apparently all have it wrong as well, making it is confusing to their customers. I don't see any confusion at all when they have been has transparent about size as just about every other company out there... not only in referring to what it is compatible and comparable with but the height. Just like WH40k really isn't 28mm but doesn't change the fact that it is considered that and advertised as that. Now whether you personally choose to call it that is a different story but by not following a norm, you end up being the cause of confusion for others.
Artemis Black wrote: ....I don't use '40mm scale', mostly because it's meaningless. You can't actually have a mm based 'scale', mm is reserved for height. Any use of a mm scale is basically, as I've said, a proxy for 'meh, somewhere about this height'. Which is fine if that's what you want to know, but if someone asks 'Hey, how tall is this mini' or 'how tall is this race', you'd better be giving an actual height, and not to the eyes. I would fire someone for answering such a simple question with such a stupid answer....
....I already said all of the above, companies randomly describe their minis for marketing purposes. That does 'not' mean that people should be censored into using their made up definitions. If talking about minis of a certain height I'm going to use that height, anything else is simply stupid...
So you aren't going to call a tomato a vegetable, even though it is really a fruit, because every company refers and markets it that way?
http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=female-armature-%28b%29~hfl504&category=accessories~converting "Single 28mm scale female armature." - Just want to point out that this not only is referring scale but also doesn't measure 28mm from the foot the head. It measures 27.5mm to where the eyes would be and is actually 29mm to the top of her head... but it's ok to say it is a 28mm scale, because it is obviously randomly described for marketing purposes. We also shouldn't use 28mm scale as a definition then and should be calling it 29mm.
If you wanted to, but it would be silly because they have gone out of their way to tell you that their minis will be different heights already and as I know the guys at MERCs I'm pretty sure that if you went on their facebook and asked them how tall any mini of theirs was they'd tell you the actual answer.
That was their answer when asked how tall their miniatures were. But when FF clearly answers with the size, shows a picture, gives you a variance of size and also explains the how and the way they measure... it isn't ok? The true height of miniature doesn't matter. It only matters that a height is given in a formula that lets customers determine if it will match up with their existing terrain, games and other miniatures.
Conversely their supporters, like yourself, have been overwhelmingly negative towards anyone asking such questions. Guess which one does more damage to a product?
I haven't been negative at all. I've simply answered questions and pointed out where opinions tend to diverge and given many examples. The questions have been answered but there are still pages talking about the same thing before I even started responding (as seen from the quotes I pulled earlier).
and a 40mm tall miniature will, of course, look like giants next to a 33mm space marine. Feel free to take that comparison pic and see how it goes.
I already did in two previous poses, you must of missed them. There were quite a few pictures with various miniatures from various companies, using their miniature examples to create a baseline based on my own miniatures. I even took them with terrain ranging from WH40K to Infinity terrain as well. They don't look like giants, but Space Marines look fat... they always look fat, it is the one thing I could never stand about them.
If GW had a kickstarter that was mostly Tyranids and said the Kickstarter was '28mm scale' without bothering to mention that the Tyranids were 54mm tall or showing any comparison photos for them or ruler shots however people 'would' have a problem with that.
I have a question for you. If you saw a kickstarter for a pack of actual fantasy giants, no ruler shot, no comparison shot and you asked them 'How big are your minis' and they said 'They are in 28mm scale' with no further info, how annoyed would you be?
I wouldn't be annoyed at all. I would have asked for either a ruler example of exactly what was 28mm, to the top of their head or to their eyes. If they didn't provide anything else then I would have never backed them because there was no information to go from to use for reference. The difference is FF provided all the information, they identified what the scale of their product is (keep in mind companies also think about future products), they identified how they measured it, they gave multiple comparison images with rulers, they identified the larger race and gave you measurements stating to their eyes. With that reference you can figure out true height, take existing miniatures to determine if it will work with your terrain or if you need new stuff. You can make a decision on if that is the direction you want to go. All that information was provided even before day 1 launch. Just like I did using their images as a baseline, comparing them to multiple miniature brands and terrains to determine how compatible it would be. But judging from the way you comment, how you comment and what you have said it implies they didn't do any of that or they are trying to use marketing flim flam, when they aren't. You just don't agree with their definitions that are clearly outlined.
The boxset is the main focus for you. You even said it yourself because of the value. It actually isn't the focus for a lot of backers, that is actually the current issue at the moment. I'm hoping it will be changed as I've been told they are looking into it. It is the one big limiting factor in their whole campaign because not everyone likes or wants Ares/Riff. Personally I'll be getting Sayx and hopefully selling the others, although the secondary market will probably be shot unless there is some changes to the core box set.
Weren't you guys asked to take the scale discussion elsewhere like 5 huge walls of texts ago? I don't think anyone in this thread is interested in seeing any more of it at this point. Frankly I'd be happy if Artemis Black was allowed to put a long text in the OP discussing his observations and the history of the previous campaign so new people could be informed and the thread could move on.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/11/18 09:32:58
I must admit, the level of leniency I've seen given to Artemis's posts are shocking considering my own run in's with the moderation team in the past. I think this is way past any doubt that the poster is simply here to sabotage the project. Even IF, and that's a big IF Artemis was really here making 'innocent' observations, his affiliations with a competing company should have been a huge red light to the control team to stem his flow. You simply can't expect someone in his position to be impartial. It's clear I'm not alone in these thoughts.
At this point I think Artemis position is clear to anyone who reads this thread. So if we could just move on rather than trying to discuss anything with him we would only be doing good to the project. You know how thw saying goes: Never argue with an....
Alright guys, everyone has had a chance to put in one last response on the scale issue, so I would now ask that Dark Severance, Artemis Black, and anyone else interested in discussing it further take it to another thread. I'm not kidding, Dakka Discussions is perfect for this kind of thing! However, it does not belong in Fallen Frontiers N&R thread.
So, I am going to be following through on my below note and simply deleting any posts from here on out that are discussing the general scale issue. You can certainly discuss it on Dakka - however, this thread now needs to be left for people to discuss the Fallen Frontiers campaign with, rather than general industry standards. Again... thanks for understanding, and if you see a post that fits this description, please hit the yellow triangle rather than respond, and the mods will handle it (regardless of which "side" of the scale issue the post is for).
RiTides wrote: Okay, I'm going to be reining in this thread. I will leave the above posts because I had not yet posted this warning, but from here on out:
We will not be rehashing all of that discussion here. In this thread, please limit discussion to the current campaign. Accusations of lying, or otherwise "stirring up" people in this thread, will simply not be tolerated. Posts of this nature will be edited or deleted. Every company deserves the right to stand or fall on its own merits, and this thread will be for discussing the current campaign only.
If you want to have more general discussions about the company, or general business practices in the miniatures industry, etc please start a separate thread in Dakka Discussions.
I think this note should be very clear, but PM me with any questions... and this will be enforced in this thread from this point forward.
I was able to snag an EB1 Assault pledge last night so I'm really hoping they offer different factions in the box. If not, Mierce will be getting my 100.
I like all the Factions, Riff and Sayx being my favorites. Unfortunately Ares are my least favorite. Still, I actually want everything, which never happens. Great sculpting on display here.
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Dark Severance wrote: I already did in two previous poses, you must of missed them. There were quite a few pictures with various miniatures from various companies, using their miniature examples to create a baseline based on my own miniatures. I even took them with terrain ranging from WH40K to Infinity terrain as well. They don't look like giants, but Space Marines look fat... they always look fat, it is the one thing I could never stand about them.
(I snipped the rest because of Ritides, and to be honest I don't think we're having the same argument anyway so I'm fine with the restriction as I'm pretty certain we were getting to the argument stage)
I haven't seen that, I did see an old red plastic Terminator, but I haven't seen a Space Marine. I could have missed it I suppose.
Dark Severance wrote: The boxset is the main focus for you. You even said it yourself because of the value. It actually isn't the focus for a lot of backers, that is actually the current issue at the moment. I'm hoping it will be changed as I've been told they are looking into it. It is the one big limiting factor in their whole campaign because not everyone likes or wants Ares/Riff. Personally I'll be getting Sayx and hopefully selling the others, although the secondary market will probably be shot unless there is some changes to the core box set.
About 50% of the money raised is via the boxset. Assuming the other 50% isn't all Sayx and Harvesters only and is split somewhat evenly, then the Ares and Riffs make up 75% of the current Kickstarter.
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Delephont wrote: I must admit, the level of leniency I've seen given to Artemis's posts are shocking considering my own run in's with the moderation team in the past. I think this is way past any doubt that the poster is simply here to sabotage the project. Even IF, and that's a big IF Artemis was really here making 'innocent' observations, his affiliations with a competing company should have been a huge red light to the control team to stem his flow. You simply can't expect someone in his position to be impartial. It's clear I'm not alone in these thoughts.
*laugh* Man these attempts get more amusing every time. I work for a miniature company, actually I work for 3 at the moment. It's not a secret, nor is it relevant to my opinion on the matter for many and varied reasons all of which have been made totally clear more than once.
The manufacturer I work for doesn't make miniatures in the same scale as this company. Nor do they make a sci-fi game nor do they have any plans to do so. Only someone desperate to shut me up with their own agenda would try to draw a line between the two things over and over again. There are a 'lot' of companies running Kickstarters way better than this one and in the same scale as the manufacturer I work for and in the same genre as a game we 'do' have planned. And yet, I remain strangely silent on them, because whenever they crossed my path it was simply a normal Kickstarter where I knew what size things were and what material it was made from, and all of the other things I would simply be repeating myself about.
As I also work as a retailer, a company making a new game is actually very beneficial to me. We make money from those, that's how retail works. FF doing well is better for me, FF screwing things up and burning more people on kickstarter as a platform is worse for me. That doesn't mean I'm going to support any dodginess I see just to make some extra cash, that's not the kind of person I am, personally or business-wise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 15:22:26
Artemis Black wrote: ...my opinion on the matter for many and varied reasons all of which have been made totally clear more than once.
It has been made very clear, so please, as noted above, let this be your final say on the matter here (i.e. in this thread, you may feel free to start another elsewhere).
I also ask that Dark Severance and Delephont do not reply and allow the thread to move on from this. You may all continue the discussion elsewhere or via PM, of course.
Alpharius wrote: Happily, I love the Ares and the Riff, so I'm good to go with the box set.
I just need to figure out how to add in all their extras, as well as all the Sayx too!
I have to redo some of my calculations, I did try messing with combining two pledges like Assault Trooper + Faction but so far the best method is Assault Trooper + Add-ons, at least for me. That gets me complete Sayx minus the vehicle for $270 with shipping. I'm out of time so I'll redo calculations again later.
These rules are rough. I'm curious to see how balanced this game is. It seems like having x5 assault troops gives Riff a clear advantage based on the stats so far. I guess time will tell.
Alpharius wrote: Happily, I love the Ares and the Riff, so I'm good to go with the box set.
I just need to figure out how to add in all their extras, as well as all the Sayx too!
I have to redo some of my calculations, I did try messing with combining two pledges like Assault Trooper + Faction but so far the best method is Assault Trooper + Add-ons, at least for me. That gets me complete Sayx minus the vehicle for $270 with shipping. I'm out of time so I'll redo calculations again later.
ASSAULT TROOPER + add-ons does seem to the way to go...
So far, the only thing I don't is the vehicle design - none really work for me. They look more 'toy-like' than I'd prefer.
Maybe once we see actual physical models I'll change my mind though?
Hopefully vehicles won't dominate the game, and it won't end up mattering too much.
I am not really interested in the box, or the majority of ARES, may be the yellow but the armour seems really unimpressive, for me it needed more top details and less boob armour to work.
Sayx on the other hand look interesting, that been said the main box would be more interesting if it included the light Ares troops in.
Malkaven wrote: These rules are rough. I'm curious to see how balanced this game is. It seems like having x5 assault troops gives Riff a clear advantage based on the stats so far. I guess time will tell.
Where are these rules at? I would like to take a look over them but all I see is that they have the Spanish rules up. Sadly I cannot read that. How rough is "rough" exactly?
PsychoticStorm wrote: I am not really interested in the box, or the majority of ARES, may be the yellow but the armour seems really unimpressive, for me it needed more top details and less boob armour to work.
Sayx on the other hand look interesting, that been said the main box would be more interesting if it included the light Ares troops in.
You're just spoiled by the aweseomeness of the Gecko and new Mobile Brigada
All kidding aside, I see where you're coming from. I'm not a huge fan of the yellow paint either, but I think it'll look really sharp in a blue or red. Then again, once I do that they'll look like they're straight from Starcraft.... Which I'm okay with
Malkaven wrote: These rules are rough. I'm curious to see how balanced this game is. It seems like having x5 assault troops gives Riff a clear advantage based on the stats so far. I guess time will tell.
Where are these rules at? I would like to take a look over them but all I see is that they have the Spanish rules up. Sadly I cannot read that. How rough is "rough" exactly?
Here are the rules. I'm my opinion they are more like rough draft rather than Alpha. Not complete at all but enough where you can get an idea of how it will work.
2000pts in 
with 
allies 1850pts finished
