Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Fully clothed and not made too look like a hooker. Result.

Well if you wanted to go that root, the ridiculous breasts shaped breastplate should have been omitted too.

Oddly enough this is the only miniature line that it exists and it bothers me.

Creator SCALE GAMES LLC about 6 hours ago

@Wayne Fitzgerald - You can raise your pledge now if you want, or you can wait for the pledge manager to come out, which should be soon.

I'm confused - don't we have to wait until the campaign is over to do stuff in a Pledge Manager?

Well you can raise it now and help the project by having it move up to stretch goals and then have a credit in the pledgemanager, or you can add stuff in the pledgemanager after it has been funded from the things already unlocked and pay then.

Or do both of the above.

I know all about the first part (and it is what I'll be doing as I want a lot here, but can only afford so much during this time of year!)

And you can't do the latter until this one is over!

So trust me, it still doesn't make sense!

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm confused - don't we have to wait until the campaign is over to do stuff in a Pledge Manager?

Technically you don't have to wait for a KS to end to do things in a Pledge Manager, a few kickstarters give you access to the pledge manager before hand. However those changes don't add or effect the KS directly. I think it may be something lost in translation honestly as soon(tm) is a subjective term. Soon after the KS ends the Pledge Manager may be available, which end up being 1-3 months later.

Yeah, 'soon' is a relative term.

I do think there's a few 'lost in translation' issues here, but hopefully not in the final rulebook!

Is that Dianne Tianseen just the render for the 75mm one? It looks exactly the same, and as seen by the Sayx guy, you make things smaller and you need to make changes.

(Also that coat will be a nightmare for casting, even in resin)

Honestly do you ever say anything that is not negative about these guys? you almost look as if you have an agenda against them.

This one?



No idea!

But I'll take your word for it - I wonder how extensive the changes will have to be in order for it to be 'castable'?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
$80K hit:

Update #9

Nov 17 2014

Up next... surprises!
2 comments
6 likes

Hello everyone,

We have already unlocked our third hero, you can now add Jason Ramires to your pledge for $15.

For the next stretch goal we have decided to give you a special treat, and now with the Silver Card Backs you will also receive a FREE painting DVD.

Additionally If we reach the $100,000 mark we have decided to give you another special treat to thank you for all the support, and we will make Hank “Operator 323” a FREE addition to all pledges with access to stretch goals. This means that the next 3 stretch goals (Silver Card Backs + Painting DVD, Hank “Operator 323” and Fink Draar) are all FREE!

$90,000 – Silver Card Backs + Painting DVD [FREE]

By unlocking this stretch goal we are going to make all card backs in shiny silver, which will be exclusive for this Kickstarter campaign. This means that no matter who you play with, they will always know you were one of the original backers of this campaign and helped make Fallen Frontiers a reality. Additionally you will receive a free painting DVD to help you paint your miniatures to an excellent standard!

That $90K stretch goal isn't terribly exciting (the DVD could be nice though!), but that $100K one certainly rocks!

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Honestly do you ever say anything that is not negative about these guys? you almost look as if you have an agenda against them.

Yes, regularly. Which you'd know if you'd read my remarks and weren't just trying another ad hominem attack.

The FF Supporters group is over there -->


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
This one?



No idea!

But I'll take your word for it - I wonder how extensive the changes will have to be in order for it to be 'castable'?

Yeah that's the one, looks like the same figure. I wish they'd stop doing that, the 'Sphynx' Harvester character is the 75mm one too.

A main reason for mentioning it is that the rescaled and resculpted 'Bitsie' is awful, broken Liefeldian spine, head seems to be in the wrong place, the 'boob armour' seems to have been made .. saggy for want of a better description and the guns have been beefed up to giant proportions.The 75mm one has a lot less issues and is clearly a 'much' better figure. Same pose, same figure, but something is clearly worse with the smaller one.

Added spoiler tags to large image - RiTides




Basically you can't just show people 75mm statues and say 'This is what you'll get in 40mm' when it's almost certain you will not. That Dianne is a really nice 75mm figure, but until I see a print of it in the size I'd be getting I'm not buying it.

I read your remarks, I read your remarks even from their previous attempt, you repeat the same thing over and over and most importantly in a way I can only read as toxic and unhelpful, almost as mudslinging than anything else.

I have been way more critical than you on kickstarters, but never had that tone and on some cases actually the creator thanked me, even when I pointed out some really big issues because I gave workable solutions.

You simply stand and shout, it is annoying after a while and it has been quite a while.

While I don't agree on FF with Artemis probably all the time I would rather he question the piece rather than the rest of us just going "ohh shiny"

He is after all public enemy number one.

 Artemis Black wrote:
(Also that coat will be a nightmare for casting, even in resin)

It isn't going to be too much of a nightmare really. They just need to cast it similar to what Infinity, Wild West Exodus, Warzone and Kingdom Death miniatures have done. The body is one piece with part of the coat. The rest of the coat is a separate piece that is attached, with a slight overlap so it can become seamless.

 Artemis Black wrote:
Basically you can't just show people 75mm statues and say 'This is what you'll get in 40mm' when it's almost certain you will not. That Dianne is a really nice 75mm figure, but until I see a print of it in the size I'd be getting I'm not buying it.

KS have always done this showing renders, concept and pictures of what they are creating even in the correct size and sometimes they match up and sometimes they don't, but I have been really surprised on how they always seem to match up pretty well.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
While I don't agree with Artemis probably all the time I would rather he question the piece rather than the rest of us just going "ohh shiny"

He is after all public enemy number one.

There's a vast ocean of space between going "ohh shiny" and implying that Scale are trying to trick their backers and that they won't be able to fulfill their kickstarter obligations, which Mr. Black does in every post.
Keep glorifying his contribution though, it's important to encourage snide criticism amongst peers, we really don't see it enough on the internet.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Honestly do you ever say anything that is not negative about these guys? you almost look as if you have an agenda against them.

If you see the video from Michael Bartel they actually discuss that the render has a bigger fun so it can be cast in the smaller scale. But you probably won't given the last campaign episode

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I read your remarks, I read your remarks even from their previous attempt, you repeat the same thing over and over and most importantly in a way I can only read as toxic and unhelpful, almost as mudslinging than anything else.

I have been way more critical than you on kickstarters, but never had that tone and on some cases actually the creator thanked me, even when I pointed out some really big issues because I gave workable solutions.

You simply stand and shout, it is annoying after a while and it has been quite a while.

I think the only agenda here is yours, you characterise my questions as an 'attempt' for a start yet don't say what it is an attempt to do. I am a backer of this kickstarter, and not for a $1, I have praised a number of the designs and some of the actual miniatures. I have said good things about the graphical presentations and especially the sculptors and artists.

What I have been critical of is the vague and misleading statements about various aspects of the kickstarter coming from whoever's in charge of that stuff and in fact the biggest things I complained about last kickstarter turned out to be 100% correct. The miniatures weren't the size they claimed and they weren't making stuff in plastic with the basic funding goal. Seems a reasonable thing to question, normally when a company isn't telling the truth about their products then the person pointing it out doesn't get this much stick from random company cheerleaders. Doesn't bother me, it's just weird.

Same company, second time around, less benefit of the doubt. I'm definitely going to question any vague information or misleading advertising, you can feel free to ignore my questions if ya like, it's probably not hard, I won't be stopping because some random on the internet tries to paint me with some kind of made up agenda though,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 plastictrees wrote:

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
While I don't agree with Artemis probably all the time I would rather he question the piece rather than the rest of us just going "ohh shiny"

He is after all public enemy number one.

There's a vast ocean of space between going "ohh shiny" and implying that Scale are trying to trick their backers and that they won't be able to fulfill their kickstarter obligations, which Mr. Black does in every post.
Keep glorifying his contribution though, it's important to encourage snide criticism amongst peers, we really don't see it enough on the internet.

No Mr. Black does not.

Edited by RiTides - Rule #1 of Dakka is "Be polite"




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dark Severance wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:
(Also that coat will be a nightmare for casting, even in resin)

It isn't going to be too much of a nightmare really. They just need to cast it similar to what Infinity, Wild West Exodus, Warzone and Kingdom Death miniatures have done. The body is one piece with part of the coat. The rest of the coat is a separate piece that is attached, with a slight overlap so it can become seamless.

That's the nightmare part, I hate cutting things up like that. We were looking to have to do it with a recent fig but in the end decided to make the cloak heavier and fill the parts (Mostly though because we had an eye to metal rpduction too, but the resin guys were definitely happier about it )

 Dark Severance wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:
Basically you can't just show people 75mm statues and say 'This is what you'll get in 40mm' when it's almost certain you will not. That Dianne is a really nice 75mm figure, but until I see a print of it in the size I'd be getting I'm not buying it.

KS have always done this showing renders, concept and pictures of what they are creating even in the correct size and sometimes they match up and sometimes they don't, but I have been really surprised on how they always seem to match up pretty well.

I have no problem with the idea, I mean half the stuff on there is drawings. what I take issue with is not mentioning it anyway. If you have a Kickstarter for a 40mm product and you put up a render, or in this case a painted final figure, without mentioning 'at all' that it's a 75mm statue, it gives the message that 'that' is definitely what you are buying. And as seen with Bitsie, it is regularly not.

No idea why they just can't say that it's a 75mm figure, most of their fans won't care anyway and it's more honest for the ones that do.

@plastic

if you get off your high horse in your hatred for Artemis for a minute , I was more pointing out that every opinion is welcome whether its good or bad.

it's important to encourage tolerance amongst peers, we really don't see it enough on the internet. Touché

Some Kickstarters use just artwork, some renders, and in this case photos of similar figures at a different scale. I'd say that's better than artwork or renders, even though I'd prefer to see actual models.

However, I'm backing other campaigns and while I express that I would like to see a 3d print at least, I don't go back to it over and over... either they're capable of footing the costs upfront, or they need the KS funds and can't. It's then a call of whether I have confidence enough to back or not based on what they can show.

Here, I'm in for $1. But, you seem to not give credit where it is due. For example, you have repeated 40mm several times in your last post, when on the first day they posted this in the comments:

Scale Games wrote:@Gomezaddams - The miniatures are fully produced in Spain, whilst other bits and pieces (such as cards, dice, etc.) are produced in China. The scale of the miniatures when standing straight is 35mm from soles to eyes for Sayx and Harvesters, and 37mm from soles to eyes for the Ares and Riff. For more questions and images regarding the scale please refer to the FAQ.

Nov 14 2014 on Fallen Frontiers REBOOT.

So, basically 40mm is something that you are just repeating over and over but doesn't correlate to the figures in this campaign, from what I can see.

I would personally appreciate it if you kept your criticism more focused, as right now it does just seem like you are out to get them, and that turns people off to your view rather than convincing them of it.

 Pilgrim_uk wrote:
@plastic

if you get off your high horse in your hatred for Artemis for a minute , I was more pointing out that every opinion is welcome whether its good or bad.

it's important to encourage tolerance amongst peers, we really don't see it enough on the internet. Touché

How dare you sir! I would never ride my high horse in hatred. That's just basic high horse safety. I'm frankly stunned that you would even suggest otherwise.

 RiTides wrote:
Some Kickstarters use just artwork, some renders, and in this case photos of similar figures at a different scale. I'd say that's better than artwork or renders, even though I'd prefer to see actual models.

And when you see a piece of artowrk do you think you are buying artwork or do you you think you will be getting a mini base don that artwork? If you see a finished mini that makes no mention of it not being the mini you are going to get I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that's what you are getting. In this case that would be an incorrect assumption, thus misleading.

 RiTides wrote:
However, I'm backing other campaigns and while I express that I would like to see a 3d print at least, I don't go back to over and over... either they're capable of footing the costs upfront, or they need the KS funds and can't. It's then a call of whether I have confidence enough to back or not based on what they can show.

Here, I'm in for $1. But, you seem to not give credit where it is due. For example, you have repeated 40mm several times in your last post, when on the first day they posted this in the comments:

Scale Games wrote:@Gomezaddams - The miniatures are fully produced in Spain, whilst other bits and pieces (such as cards, dice, etc.) are produced in China. The scale of the miniatures when standing straight is 35mm from soles to eyes for Sayx and Harvesters, and 37mm from soles to eyes for the Ares and Riff. For more questions and images regarding the scale please refer to the FAQ.

Nov 14 2014 on Fallen Frontiers REBOOT.

So, basically 40mm is something that you are just repeating over and over but doesn't correlate to the figures in this campaign, from what I can see.

The only figure thus far made that is 38mm tall is the Sayx guy, the Sayx are not one of the races in the boxed set. The Riff and the Ares are in the boxed set and they are 40mm tall or even larger in the case of the Berserkers. I'm not writing '37mm to the eyes' over and over again? The boxed set contains 40mm figures so when I say 'They have to cast thousands of 40mm figures', it's because they do. That's a fact? Yes they also have to cast a bunch of 38mm figures, that doesn't make the first sentence any less true. I have no idea how tall Dianne is going to be but Scale have said that Hero figures will be larger than the average figures, so again I don't think saying '40mm' is in any way an attack, why on Earth would it be?

 RiTides wrote:
I would personally appreciate it if you kept your criticism more focused, as right now it does just seem like you are out to get them, and that turns people off to your view rather than convincing them of it.

You mean more focussed in the sense of talking about things that are in the Kickstarter rather than talking about things like... me? Pretty certain I was doing that, and may be in the minority on this page at least. If I was 'out to get them' I would a) not be doing it here, what a random place to do it and b) I would not have said the numerous positive comments including btw 'Everyone go buy that boxset'.

You were the one who closed the other thread with the instructions to talk about the kickstarter not about the forum members?

To the two issues you raise, my brief reply:

1. Almost every miniatures manufacturer for wargaming measures "to the eye", so your "40mm" characterization is (in my view) simply incorrect. You can stick to it if you like, but I think it's wrong. According to convention, these would be called 35mm, based on the quote from Scale Games I put above.

2. Again, it's fine to criticize them for not having physical models that are the correct scale, but doing so over and over can become off-topic as it can (again) derail the thread, which I'm trying to avoid. Many companies put renders on bases with dynamic lighting now, and it Looks like a mini, but it isn't. This is analogous, and while I don't like the practice, I'm simply asking you not to repeat yourself on that and allow those interested in the campaign to follow it's progress.

If you want to debate general issues like this, the best solution would be a thread in Dakka Discussions about "scale measurements in wargaming" or "using art, renders, or larger models instead of physical masters" to represent a product. But discussion in this thread needs to be focused on just this Kickstarter campaign, and not just the general points above which have been well covered by now.

Plastic

No doubt a lawyers letter will be on its way to me for such scurrilous remarks . Ohh the scandal at the riding club.

@Artemis

Your a stubborn git ain't you.

 RiTides wrote:
To the two issues you raise, my brief reply:

1. Almost every miniatures manufacturer for wargaming measures "to the eye", so your "40mm" characterization is (in my view) simply incorrect. You can stick to it if you like, but I think it's wrong. According to convention, these would be called 35mm, based on the quote from Scale Games I put above.

What 'convention' would this be? I've worked in this industry for twenty years and sold hundreds of different companies products and haven't heard of this convention. 'Some' companies use a to the eyes measurement, pretty much zero companies use that eye measurement when telling you how big an individual miniature is unless they specify 'to the eyes', A measurement without that specification is an actual height. The actual height of these miniatures is not '35mm'. If you ask me the scale of their game I would be forced to answer '35mm to the eyes' because that's their definition, that is not, and has never been ,the convention for talking about miniature heights though (in recent times, I am willing to believe when military miniatures were more the norm that it may have been due to the copious amount of headwear involved).

 RiTides wrote:
2. Again, it's fine to criticize them for not having physical models that are the correct scale, but doing so over and over can become off-topic as it can (again) derail the thread, which I'm trying to avoid. Many companies put renders on bases with dynamic lighting now, and it Looks like a mini, but it isn't. This is analogous, and while I don't like the practice, I'm simply asking you not to repeat yourself on that and allow those interested in the campaign to follow it's progress.

I may have mentioned it more than once but I'm not just randomly shouting it out like a weird tourettes victim. I mentioned it this time in specific to one of the minis because a render video of that mini was newly uploaded. It seems a perfectly reasonable question to ask if it's just the large scale render or not. Conversation led from that, it was not a general argument, I even included a specific example (Bitise) from this campaign to illustrate why I was asking.

 Artemis Black wrote:
What I have been critical of is the vague and misleading statements about various aspects of the kickstarter coming from whoever's in charge of that stuff and in fact the biggest things I complained about last kickstarter turned out to be 100% correct. The miniatures weren't the size they claimed and they weren't making stuff in plastic with the basic funding goal.

Except on day 1 on KS1 it was stated it was injection plastic and 35mm. It is all time stamped in their comments. When it was questioned what type of plastic is where it became vague because they didn't make any contracts and were waiting for the final results of the KS. Then it was stated some plastic, some metal... then later resin. Resin was finalized and in response to the back sliding because people didn't want cheap plastic and it didn't seem possible to HIPS given the amount of miniatures on the budget. Unfortunately since it wasn't budgeted around resin minatures there was no way they could of delivered those miniatures at the prices they were at without losing a lot of money.

 Artemis Black wrote:
That's the nightmare part, I hate cutting things up like that.

With digital and 3d printed works cutting miniatures up is the easiest part. It would be a nightmare if it was a traditional sculpt though instead of digital. That is the great thing about how well the newer Infinity's models have been turning out because of how well they've been cutting up their digital sculpts.

 Artemis Black wrote:
If you have a Kickstarter for a 40mm product and you put up a render, or in this case a painted final figure, without mentioning 'at all' that it's a 75mm statue, it gives the message that 'that' is definitely what you are buying.

I can understand to a degree if they actually didn't have anything else to show. The pictures and miniatures from GenCon were not 75mm statues. In fact you can look at the 75mm version and compare it to the quality for their 35mm on as they have both pictures on their Facebook page. The miniatures looked really good in person.

 Artemis Black wrote:
No idea why they just can't say that it's a 75mm figure, most of their fans won't care anyway and it's more honest for the ones that do.

It is called marketing. Why do you think there isn't fine print in fashion magazines that say 'photoshop'. Even other gaming companies doctor their photos up or take pictures of larger models without saying they are larger models. The only thing that matters if the final product.

On other news I don't believe this was posted here:http://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=hpaF-T6_G0E&u=/watch%3Fv%3DcTs92GmCwkk%26feature%3Dem-uploademail

ugh if only I could swap one of the factions out for Sayx...

Which other company's have done the taking pictures of larger models thing?

I'd like to know so I don't end up blinded by ooh Shiney syndrome, and then be annoyed it looks different.

 Artemis Black wrote:
What 'convention' would this be? I've worked in this industry for twenty years and sold hundreds of different companies products and haven't heard of this convention. 'Some' companies use a to the eyes measurement, pretty much zero companies use that eye measurement when telling you how big an individual miniature is unless they specify 'to the eyes', A measurement without that specification is an actual height.

Measurements to the eyes didn't start out as a standard. Historical wargames tend to be more truescale and measured to the tops of the head. The problem is that many companies were doing fancier, more detailed hair, larger helmets, etc and over the years it has been becoming a standard. Not stating that the measurement is specified to the eyes does not infer that it is the actual miniature height. Not to mention from the beginning they did state and specify that the measurement is to the eyes. But you are saying you won't say that because to be accurate, you would have to type out 'to the eyes', despite they have already stated that as their measurement.

Not to mention WH40k is advertised as 28mm heroic scale, but are closer to 32mm and depending on the race they can measure up to 28mm to the eyes and up to 35mm to the top of their heads. Infinity is also advertised as 28mm miniatures, they do not specify to the eyes. Not all the humans measure 28mm to the eyes, if we measured height to the top of the head they would be 35mm miniatures but it isn't advertised as a 35mm game. Wild West Exodus is advertised as 35mm miniatures and not all 35mm to the top of the head, some measure 32mm instead. Warzone is advertised as 32mm which is to the eyes, the miniatures are 35-40mm high (usually because of helmets) but when we refer to them we refer to 32mm, not 40mm. Even then it doesn't matter because races, factions, armor all change the height so they will vary... instead companies state "these miniatures are compatible with 28mm gaming" or "these will work with 32mm miniatures" or in this case "these are 35mm and do appear slightly bigger but still compatible with 32mm terrain.".

This continues to look really good.