Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

We had a thread about this a while back but it got closed. WAAC stands for Win at All Costs.
This is an attitude and not a list build. Although list build is a part of this. For example finding loopholes that were never intended and abusing them. A perfect example is the classic old space wolf armies with termies running about toting assault cannons while also carrying cyclone missile launchers. We players know that combo wasnt supposed to happen but the attitude of the players who abused the typo caused them to use it anyway. So the list did not make them WAAC, but their WAAC attitude caused them to use the list. This makes the list CAN be only one of many symptoms.
Other symptoms include cheating, tailoring and cherry picking games like seeking out the new players who havnt learned the game yet.
So WAAC players exist and those who are the worst WAAC players will fight the hardest to deny the term simply because it describes them in a negative light. (The usual not that this statement is general and is not intended to include any members here).

HOWEVER, this does not mean there is a WAAC player hiding behind every tree. They are still the minority. I think you just happened across jerks who have been being more and more drawn to the hobby since 2nd edition when tournaments started.

You will notice that all WAAC players are competetive players but not all competetive players are WAAC players.

@XdeadpoolX: I'm not entirely sure why your condemning an entire shop full of people based on a conversation with one guy and deciding everyone was running net lists.

Every shop has a guy that talks too loudly, disparages every one else's decisions and makes horrible recommendations. Sometimes people gather around this guy just to hear what he has to say in the same vain as people who drive slow past a car crash. A month before the DE codex came out I was in the shop playing a guy who spent a fair amount of time loudly stating that DE "sucked", that "poison" weapons were a waste and that they needed a "lot" of S6 type weapons. Although I normally don't go for the throat quite this fast, I tabled him T3. With my DE.

You might very well have walked into a somewhat organized day were everyone was *supposed* to bring the most OTT army they could. The shop I play at does this every so often. Did you bother actually talking to anyone else?

Regardless, yes, GK changed, that's to be expected; and there is plenty of power in that codex. Most of the moaning comes from the fact that they are indeed different from before; but that's to be expected with any codex release.

OP, While it doesn't seem your opponent was necessarily a WAAC player, he was certainly being an ass in being derisive of how you play the game. You're not wrong to be taken aback by his attitude, but probably the best thing you can do is laugh and/or politely tell him where he can put it.

Regarding level of competitiveness, a similar thing happened to the group I played Magic the Gathering with. Basically after 10 years of playing casually and making do with random packs of cards, we started ordering some powerful single cards on the net, in order to develop some of our decks. For a while it was fun, but unfortunately it became an expensive arms race and got to the point where some of the others were paying €40 or €50 for single cards. What ruined it for me was when I realised that few of the others cared anymore about deck themes, coolness of artwork or fun rules, it all just became a number crunching exercise, and a matter of who had the money for those cards. I stopped playing because I did not find that fun in the slightest. And if I attempted to bring a fun theme deck against one of their tournament meta decks, I stood about a 5% chance of winning! Not fun either. So I stepped out and sold my €1100 collection. Some of the others continued, because they liked that element of the hobby, but it killed it for me. If the same can be true of 40k (I haven't played it for long enough to say), then I completely understand your frustration, even if I don't entirely agree with your viewpoint.

While what the others are saying is correct -avoid playing against people that are unenjoyable to play against- that can be a bit harder in practice, where you only have a small amount of people that play in your area. And that is true of many things, not just hobbies.

 XdeadpoolX wrote:
Anyone else see this and how do you deal with it? it feels like all the people i've gamed with have been corrupted with these power lists. that i really have no interest in playing outside of competitive. yeah i can make an army of dreadknights interceptors and storm ravens but its not gonna be fun for anyone to play against and not fun for me to play. Same with my necrons. Yeah i can run a boring as net list and stomp everyone into the ground but honestly i dont wanna be that waac guy but i dont wanna play them either. I live in a pretty remote area and the lack of places to game is very slim GW only lol. so please any advice would be great

Some people find netlists fun. They also find the waac pound your opponent into the ground approach fun too. Some of them might still be happy playing against you because they will stomp you. Others won't because your "for fun" list isn't enough of a challenge for them and you are ruining their fun. It is fine to not be in sync with those players if it isn't your playing style, of course you aren't going to be happy playing against them.

I feel you pain and your only real solution is that you need to find like minded opponents and take your gaming home. That is what I did. Haven't ever regretted it. I get to play against decent opponents who all have the same approach to the game as I do. I want a fun game with an interesting opponent. I got tired of seeing the same army over and over across the table even though I played 3 different opponents in the same day. That is totally boring to me. I love armies like the previous Daemonhunters and Witchhunters lists along with the updated Heretics chaos lists in Imperial Armour 13. Lists with character and fun concepts, but that are not geared towards powergaming. I hate netlists with a passion. Also add in the continued poorly written rules and it is also much less annoying playing in a consistent group where all of the "usual" questions have been answered and house ruled by us. By playing with a consistent group that you know approaches the game the same way you get rid of a lot of what can be most annoying about showing up at a local shop for a game. All you need is a 4x6 table of some kind and some starter scenery. If everyone in the group chips in eventually you'll have a solid set of scenery to use.

Most local shops have a gamer board to find people to play with. Post up what you are looking for and you might be surprised to find a whole bunch of people who feel the same way you do.

Skriker

To the OP, it sounds like the shop you visited just has a very competitive (possibly even cut-throat) meta, which really isn't all that unusual. If there isn't another shop anywhere around, you might benefit from hanging around a few games and kind of getting a feel for the players. Alot of times, those same "WAAC" players are just simply playing to the meta and actually would love a "fluff" game instead of constantly having to run ultra-competitive lists all the time.

Ask around, look at the models the players have both on the table and off. If you see somebody who may be running a hardcore spam army, but their box has alot of painted (and unused) models that are generally considered subpar, you probably have a potential like-minded player who is just doing what it takes to get a game in and not get pounded, and would love a break from the cut-throat style of play..

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
To the OP, it sounds like the shop you visited just has a very competitive (possibly even cut-throat) meta, which really isn't all that unusual. If there isn't another shop anywhere around, you might benefit from hanging around a few games and kind of getting a feel for the players. Alot of times, those same "WAAC" players are just simply playing to the meta and actually would love a "fluff" game instead of constantly having to run ultra-competitive lists all the time.

Ask around, look at the models the players have both on the table and off. If you see somebody who may be running a hardcore spam army, but their box has alot of painted (and unused) models that are generally considered subpar, you probably have a potential like-minded player who is just doing what it takes to get a game in and not get pounded, and would love a break from the cut-throat style of play..

Totally agree. A lot of times, people will look at my cases filled with my other models and comment on those models that are 'sub-par" and i've gotten a few games in withgood people who just want to play a relaxed game without it being cut-throat and winning being secondary to enjoying the hobby.
When the only possible game is against the WAAC player or the ultra competetive player, I beef it up. Usually my conscience doesnt let me beef it up enough to win but enough that I dont get embarrassed

 XdeadpoolX wrote:
So after a few month hiatus from playing i packed up all my models, Loaded them into the car and went down to my local for a few games, All the tables were in play so i picked up the new Grey knight codex and had a flip through. Just to see how much my army has changed (which ill admit it's changed A lot) So i spoke to another GK player about the changes wondering what in and whats out now. I played a Crowe army. Mainly because I absolutely loved his fluff and his model. I didn't over do it on the transports (which i know is what a Crowe army was all about ) after a little banter I realized this guy was a after he laughed and told me my army was a waste now and would only work with unbound and even then it was a rubbish army. when i inquired about his he was all (as i know now ) generic waac net list. After another hour in my local I lost heart after seeing net lists every where. Not one person came into a GW store for fun.

Anyone else see this and how do you deal with it? it feels like all the people i've gamed with have been corrupted with these power lists. that i really have no interest in playing outside of competitive. yeah i can make an army of dreadknights interceptors and storm ravens but its not gonna be fun for anyone to play against and not fun for me to play. Same with my necrons. Yeah i can run a boring as net list and stomp everyone into the ground but honestly i dont wanna be that waac guy but i dont wanna play them either. I live in a pretty remote area and the lack of places to game is very slim GW only lol. so please any advice would be great

I wish I had telepathy so that I could read the minds of everyone in a game store like that. That would be awesome.
So, after having read everyone's minds and knowing for a fact that they weren't there for fun, but to win, because, as we all know, winning is only for WAAC/netlisters, I'd suggest taking your powers to Las Vegas. You'd make a killing at the casinos.
But, seriously, don't judge them so harshly. Talk to them and play a few games before coming down with the "they're all WAAC netlisters that hate fun" judgement.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
<snip> if these people are very happy with tabling their opponent: they are not looking for a challenge, just to win as you observed.

How do you know that?

I tend to get a bit of a glum face when I destroy my opponent = no fun for anyone. Those who do not enjoy a close game need to question their motives.

Social situations are highly complex. We don't know those players aren't there for a challenge. The store might prefer strong lists in general, and thus, to be challenged everyone else brings tough lists. Everyone playing this game has some desire to win.

Yes, various points you make here are reasonable.

Don't make a villain out of those who try a little harder or care a little more about getting that win.

Now I am pointing out that the "villains" exist that like to "cave face" (do not say you have not met them in various forms).
I am trying to identify those who would be less fun to play since the OP identified a less satisfying experience and hope to identify WAAC from Competitive (yes that fun argument again).
Those who gloat on their win or say your list sucks tend to be those "fun" folks.

Point is, we know very little about the whole scenario, and the OP is being particularly judgemental of people that were just met and know very little about.

He may also be experiencing the new level of competitiveness the game requires so it may be normal at least in style of play (some social interaction described not quite so good...).

Social interactions are highly complex.

They can be, so? He made an opinion, we were not there, he has a right to dislike what he heard.

A line or two in a post describing the situation is hardly enough to draw any conclusions about the people the OP ran into.

I really do not care to label the individuals, I look at it as FIND someone where the interaction may be more agreeable or bite the bullet and play a few games and keep a "wait and see attitude".
We do not have the opportunity to shame others the OP met, only to assist in finding fun in the game we enjoy no matter how willing we are to complain!

Snark levels are getting overly elevated in here, folks. Dial it down.

My point is that you don't know any details about the other person the OP ran into. We're talking about two sentences of information about them. That is absolutely not enough information to say that they enjoy tabling their opponents or cave face or anything about them, really. There's just too little information.

Either way, yes, OP needs to have a more in depth conversation and meet more people before making blanket assumptions. These things cut both ways. You can't look down your nose at people for being competitive, and not expect to be in turn looked down at for being 'Casual at all costs', as the term goes.

 Blacksails wrote:
You can't look down your nose at people for being competitive, and not expect to be in turn looked down at for being 'Casual at all costs', as the term goes.

You could say that someone who plays the game competitively will have a consistent experience.
The "casual" player will be destroyed in a normal game unless they find someone of a similar leaning.

Trying to find something salvageable from the negative experience needs to be the goal.
It is reasonable that looking around a bit more would be good before making rash decisions.

I also maintain if the climate of the hobby is not agreeable, a person is under no obligation to "suck it up" and can move-on.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

You would have a valid point on attitudes if these people are very happy with tabling their opponent: they are not looking for a challenge, just to win as you observed.

How do you know that?

Social situations are highly complex. We don't know those players aren't there for a challenge. The store might prefer strong lists in general, and thus, to be challenged everyone else brings tough lists. Everyone playing this game has some desire to win. Don't make a villain out of those who try a little harder or care a little more about getting that win.

Point is, we know very little about the whole scenario, and the OP is being particularly judgemental of people that were just met and know very little about. Social interactions are highly complex. A line or two in a post describing the situation is hardly enough to draw any conclusions about the people the OP ran into.

I agree with everything you say. However, my observation is that many people in pickup games do value a win very greatly, and would prefer a win to a challenge. And frankly, I don't think there is anything wrong with that, because when I play pvp computer games, I play to win. So why should tabletop war games be different?

However, it gives me more pleasure to win by being smart than to win by using a technically superior force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
You can't look down your nose at people for being competitive, and not expect to be in turn looked down at for being 'Casual at all costs', as the term goes.

You could say that someone who plays the game competitively will have a consistent experience.
The "casual" player will be destroyed in a normal game unless they find someone of a similar leaning.

Trying to find something salvageable from the negative experience needs to be the goal.
It is reasonable that looking around a bit more would be good before making rash decisions.

I also maintain if the climate of the hobby is not agreeable, a person is under no obligation to "suck it up" and can move-on.

Nah. The casual player is easy to spot from a mile away. I will field an appropriate force against a casual player (stranger or not), because a victory because they can't hurt my baneblade isn't really much of a win. Plus, a possible future gaming partner will leave disappointed.

Also, against a "casual player", I will usually point things out and let them take back obvious mistakes. I

 EVIL INC wrote:
You will notice that all WAAC players are competetive players but not all competetive players are WAAC players.

False. I have met, and played against WAAC "fun/fluffy" players. It's extremely miserable

Casual at all costs.

"LISTEN TO MY MARINE CHAPTER'S FAN FICTION!"

 Blacksails wrote:
Casual at all costs.

"LISTEN TO MY MARINE CHAPTER'S FAN FICTION!"

Sleeps in his Space Marines Power Pajamas.

 XdeadpoolX wrote:
After another hour in my local I lost heart after seeing net lists every where. Not one person came into a GW store for fun.

How would you know that what you where seeing is just a net list.

Just because something is strong doesn't meen everyone copy pastas off the web ya know.

It's important to play with like minded players. My FLGS has 24+ 40k players, and around 4 of them are the WAAC kind. What happens? The WAAC players don't get to play games with others. The process happened slowly, but after I and some other started both denoting them and reminding players that "they didn't have to play them" Everything basically got sorted out.

As it stands, none of them even come by the store that often, they tried going to another store but that didn't work. One player sold all his broken armies and is now currently trying to focus on just using tyranids, but it won't save him.

It helps that my FLGS has a vast majority of players that simply like to play. Pick up games are different than tournament games, and lists should be scaled appropriately.

 Blacksails wrote:
Casual at all costs.

"LISTEN TO MY MARINE CHAPTER'S FAN FICTION!"

"This is my space marine captain fighting hive fleet behemoth, do you see?
This is tactical squad 2's commendation for repelling a necron boarding action, do you see??
These purity seals are from my librarian's banishment of a bloodthirster, do you see!!??"

I won't roll any of my shooting dice until you hear my rousing speech to the fine soldiers of the Hammer Marines 3rd Company.

It's also worth considering that sometimes, not all the time, not even most of the time, but sometimes identifying themselves as a "fluff gamer" really just serves as social camouflage for for their more narcissistic tendencies. A good tell is the individual has simply never gotten over the fact that someone will invariably have first turn in a game. They just can't ever, even after years in the hobby get over that.

Guys I think OP ran away at this point; otherwise I think the point has been made.