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col_impact. If you want to start that argument back up, please create a new thread. The premise behind this thread is based on the assumption an FMC can Deep Strike to begin with.
As such, there is nothing in the formation that overrides the FMC arrives Swooping, and as such would not be able to DS.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
Ghaz wrote: And that doesn't stop something that will forbid you from using it.
Nothing is forbidding it from Deep Striking in. The Deep Strike USR is ALWAYS granted.
The fact that that the FMC can't use Swooping mode is what is keeping it from Deep Striking. Just because you have a USR doesn't mean that some other situation won't allow it's use. Can a Space Marine use the bolter he ALWAYS has if all of the enemy models are out of range? By the logic your using, the answer would be yes.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Ghaz wrote: And that doesn't stop something that will forbid you from using it.
Nothing is forbidding it from Deep Striking in. The Deep Strike USR is ALWAYS granted.
The fact that that the FMC can't use Swooping mode is what is keeping it from Deep Striking. Just because you have a USR doesn't mean that some other situation won't allow it's use. Can a Space Marine use the bolter he ALWAYS has if all of the enemy models are out of range? By the logic your using, the answer would be yes.
This rule doesn't actually prevent Deep Strike
Spoiler:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
Deep Strike happens. In fact it has to have happened before the above rule could be called. Mode set to swoop. Formation sets mode to glide.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/24 22:16:58
Fragile wrote: Show where the MF rules sets your Movement mode to Glide.
The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use Gliding flight mode.
Nothing in that rule says it sets your movement to anything. Your making that part up.
Show where a FMC can DS in Glide mode and you might have an argument. Otherwise you have nothing.
Fair enough. The MF rule does not set the movement mode to Glide. I don't have a physical copy before me so I overlooked that bit.
However, the MF says that it can only use the Glide mode. Deep Strike is on the FMC entry. The Flyrant Deep Strikes in and is technically in Swooping mode but technically cannot use it.
You would have to show that the FMC needs to use the Swoop mode to Deep Strike which is not restricted from happening all on its own. Deep Strike does not depend on Swooping.
I don't play Nids, but I have to say that I agree with col_impact on this one. "Counts as" is not exactly the same thing as "is".
The rules in the BRB say, "If a flying monstrous creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a flying monstrous creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode," even if you declared it to be in gliding mode.
Sequence: 1) the formation arrives via deep strike reserves 2) nids player declares that his FMC is in gliding mode to follow the restrictions of the formation 3) the FMCcounts as being in swooping mode.
No rules are broken. The formation has arrived via deepstrike, the FMC is moving via gliding as is the prerogative of the player per the BRB section on FMCs, AND the FMCcounts as being in swooping mode because it used deep strike.
However, the MF says that it can only use the Glide mode. Deep Strike is on the FMC entry. The Flyrant Deep Strikes in and is technically in Swooping mode but technically cannot use it.
Please explain using rules in the FMC section how you are Swooping but "dont" use it. MF states you can only use Gliding. Since you cannot use Gliding when you DS, you have violated that rule.
You would have to show that the FMC needs to use the Swoop mode to Deep Strike which is not restricted from happening all on its own. Deep Strike does not depend on Swooping.
This is an irrelevant point that you continue to try to address. It has nothing to do with the argument. You have to show how you can DS onto the board in Glide mode, which you cannot.
I don't play Nids, but I have to say that I agree with col_impact on this one. "Counts as" is not exactly the same thing as "is".
This is disproven many ways. Counts as = Is, or many rules break.
The formation has arrived via deepstrike, the FMC is moving via gliding as is the prerogative of the player per the BRB section on FMCs, AND the FMC counts as being in swooping mode because it used deep strike.
You truly have no clue on how FMCs move. Please show me how you can be in both Glide and Swoop mode at the same time, using the rules.
You truly have no clue on how FMCs move. Please show me how you can be in both Glide and Swoop mode at the same time, using the rules.
If you look at how the rules on FMCs is worded, it doesn't say that they have to be in swooping mode to deep strike. It says that the nid player gets to choose which mode they are in when they arrive, and that if they arrive by deep strike, they count as sooping. It doesn't say that they are swooping.
While I agree with the overall concept of "Count as does not equal is," for all Rule Interaction purposes it might as well be.
It is true that Count as Clauses exist to allow something other then X to gain access to X related Rules, but that doesn't mean that that Rules resolve as if it is both X and Y. As far as the Rules are concerned, for the duration of that Count As Clause every single one treats the subject matter as if it was X all along. If the any single Rule does not resolve as if the subject matter was X, then either the Count as Clause or the Rule in question has been broken and the entire action is illegal.
In this situation it leads to a Model is Restricted to Gliding but as far as the Rules are concerned it is Swooping.... This is clearly an illegal outcome.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/24 23:47:17
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
However, the MF says that it can only use the Glide mode. Deep Strike is on the FMC entry. The Flyrant Deep Strikes in and is technically in Swooping mode but technically cannot use it.
Please explain using rules in the FMC section how you are Swooping but "dont" use it. MF states you can only use Gliding. Since you cannot use Gliding when you DS, you have violated that rule.
You would have to show that the FMC needs to use the Swoop mode to Deep Strike which is not restricted from happening all on its own. Deep Strike does not depend on Swooping.
This is an irrelevant point that you continue to try to address. It has nothing to do with the argument. You have to show how you can DS onto the board in Glide mode, which you cannot.
You don't Deep Strike onto the board using Swoop or Glide mode you just use the rule. It's the rule itself which accomplishes the Deep Strike. The FMC rules then tell you what mode you happen to be in once you have indeed Deep Struck onto the board.
Show me in the rules where Deep Strike depends on Swooping. Deep Strike is always granted to the FMC per the rules.
Spoiler:
DEEP STRIKE
Some units make their way to battle via tunnelling, teleportation, flying, or some other
extraordinary means which allows them to appear in the thick of the fighting.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep
Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in
Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes
called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin
the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and
then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you
would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a
vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must
continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be
placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When
the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model
touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.
Units Deep Striking into ruins are placed on the ground floor. Deep Striking units count
non-ruined buildings (except for their battlements) as impassable terrain.
In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out)
as normal, and count as having moved in the previous Movement phase. Vehicles, except
for Walkers, count as having moved at Combat Speed (even Immobilised vehicles). This
can affect the number of weapons they can fire with their full Ballistic Skill.
In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to
units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.
It seems what is at stake is not whether the Flyrant can Deep Strike (that's already happened) but whether or not it can Jink.
Everyone please address the simple issue that a FMC Deep Strikes and then on it's 2nd turn can charge, right?
If so then it wasn't swooping in its first turn when it arrived from deep strike and couldn't move, only shoot or run, right? And in its 2nd turn could charge.
Therefore first turn was gliding and not swooping, right?
JinxDragon wrote: While I agree with the overall concept of "Count as does not equal is," for all Rule Interaction purposes it might as well be.
It is true that Count as Clauses exist to allow something other then X to gain access to X related Rules, but that doesn't mean that that Rules resolve as if it is both X and Y. As far as the Rules are concerned, for the duration of that Count As Clause every single one treats the subject matter as if it was X all along. If the any single Rule does not resolve as if the subject matter was X, then either the Count as Clause or the Rule in question has been broken and the entire action is illegal.
In this situation it leads to a Model is Restricted to Gliding but as far as the Rules are concerned it is Swooping....
This is clearly an illegal outcome.
You are not applying the rules as they are. Deep strike happens. At stake is what mode it is in or the mode it can use from that point on. It may indeed only have access to Monstrous Creature rules after it has deep struck in.
Nid Bits wrote: Everyone please address the simple issue that a FMC Deep Strikes and then on it's 2nd turn can charge, right?
If so then it wasn't swooping in its first turn when it arrived from deep strike and couldn't move, only shoot or run, right? And in its 2nd turn could charge.
Therefore first turn was gliding and not swooping, right?
No, it cannot.
Arriving Turn ("Turn 1"): FMC Deep Strikes in the Movement phase, counts as being in Swooping mode. FMC cannot charge due to arriving from Reserves, arriving by Deep Strike, and being in Swoop mode.
Turn 2 : FMC switches to Glide mode. FMC cannot charge due to switching Flight modes.
Turn 3: FMC can charge.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
If a flying monstrous creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/25 00:07:56
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
If a flying monstrous creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode
It is applied. The FMC Deep Strikes in. It counts as always being in Swooping mode. It can only use Gliding mode.
A question for you. What specifically keeps the Deep Strike from happening?
The fact that the FMC can only use Gliding mode, yet it must count as being in Swooping mode, the conflict makes the DS impossible since the FMC can not be in Swooping mode.
So it cant do anything that forces it into Swooping mode, which DS does.
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If a flying monstrous creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode
It is applied. The FMC Deep Strikes in. It counts as always being in Swooping mode. It can only use Gliding mode.
A question for you. What specifically keeps the Deep Strike from happening?
The fact that the FMC can only use Gliding mode, yet it must count as being in Swooping mode, the conflict makes the DS impossible since the FMC can not be in Swooping mode.
So it cant do anything that forces it into Swooping mode, which DS does.
Deep Strike is ALWAYS in effect per this rule.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
So after the Deep Strike happens, if there is a contradiction, you resolve it with Basic versus Advanced rule, which is per the rules. There is no contradiction until after the Deep Strike has happened.
No it's not. Just because you have the rule doesn't mean that some other rule can prevent you from using it. Please provide a rule that allows your FMC to Deep Strike when he can't be in Swooping mode when Deep Striking means you count as being in Swooping mode.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Ghaz wrote: No it's not. Just because you have the rule doesn't mean that some other rule can prevent you from using it. Please provide a rule that allows your FMC to Deep Strike when he can't be in Swooping mode when Deep Striking means you count as being in Swooping mode.
If a flying monstrous creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode
This rule doesn't actually prevent the Deep Strike. It only leaves open the question of what mode the FMC is in after the Deep Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote: You are not permitted to Deep Strike because it would require you to use the Swooping Flight Mode, which you have no permission to do because of MF.
You either walk on from the board edge or start deployed.
Look at the Deep Strike rules and point out what part depends on Swoop.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/25 01:05:55
Ghaz wrote: No it's not. Just because you have the rule doesn't mean that some other rule can prevent you from using it. Please provide a rule that allows your FMC to Deep Strike when he can't be in Swooping mode when Deep Striking means you count as being in Swooping mode.
If a flying monstrous creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode
This rule doesn't actually prevent the Deep Strike. It only leaves open the question of what mode the FMC is in after the Deep Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote: You are not permitted to Deep Strike because it would require you to use the Swooping Flight Mode, which you have no permission to do because of MF.
You either walk on from the board edge or start deployed.
Look at the Deep Strike rules and point out what part depends on Swoop.
I think your trolling now. You repeatedly refer back to asking for Deep Strike to depend on Swoop. You refuse to address to issue.
Ghaz wrote: No it's not. Just because you have the rule doesn't mean that some other rule can prevent you from using it. Please provide a rule that allows your FMC to Deep Strike when he can't be in Swooping mode when Deep Striking means you count as being in Swooping mode.
If a flying monstrous creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode
This rule doesn't actually prevent the Deep Strike. It only leaves open the question of what mode the FMC is in after the Deep Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote: You are not permitted to Deep Strike because it would require you to use the Swooping Flight Mode, which you have no permission to do because of MF.
You either walk on from the board edge or start deployed.
Look at the Deep Strike rules and point out what part depends on Swoop.
I think your trolling now. You repeatedly refer back to asking for Deep Strike to depend on Swoop. You refuse to address to issue.
You are saying that Deep Strike requires swooping mode. It does not. Deep Strike is granted AT ALL TIMES via the rule I quoted above.
We are having a disconnect here because you think the FMC accesses DS through Swoop or Glide. It does not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/25 01:40:53
Ghaz wrote: No it's not. Just because you have the rule doesn't mean that some other rule can prevent you from using it. Please provide a rule that allows your FMC to Deep Strike when he can't be in Swooping mode when Deep Striking means you count as being in Swooping mode.
If a flying monstrous creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode
This rule doesn't actually prevent the Deep Strike. It only leaves open the question of what mode the FMC is in after the Deep Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote: You are not permitted to Deep Strike because it would require you to use the Swooping Flight Mode, which you have no permission to do because of MF.
You either walk on from the board edge or start deployed.
Look at the Deep Strike rules and point out what part depends on Swoop.
I think your trolling now. You repeatedly refer back to asking for Deep Strike to depend on Swoop. You refuse to address to issue.
You are saying that Deep Strike requires swooping mode. It does not. Deep Strike is granted AT ALL TIMES via the rule I quoted above.
We are having a disconnect here because you think the FMC accesses DS through Swoop or Glide. It does not.
FMCs can Deep Strike because they move like Jump Infantry, therefore they gain that USR.
Your disconnect is failing to realize that Deep Striking places the FMC into Swoop Mode(quoted above). This is forbidden by the Monstrous Flock rule. You cannot use Swoop with your Hive Tyrant. Your trying to claim that you can be in both Swoop and Glide Mode at the same time, or some other mode, which is false.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/25 01:55:41
Col_Impact, The problem is not Deep Striking, it is what occurs with this particular Model when it hit the table. It is forbidden from being in a Swooping state and there is no details informing us that this Restriction is only checked at specific times, so it is an on-going Restriction that has to always be obeyed. Upon Deep Striking this Rule will encounter the 'Counts as Swooping' Clause, and be forced to count the Model as Swooping for the purposes of this Restriction. Any action which puts it in a non-swooping state is in violation of this Restriction, and therefore illegal.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/25 02:08:57
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
JinxDragon wrote: Col_Impact,
The problem is not Deep Striking, it is what occurs with this particular Model when it hit the table. It is forbidden from being in a Swooping state and there is no details informing us that this Restriction is only checked at specific times, so it is an on-going Restriction that has to always be obeyed. Upon Deep Striking this Rule will encounter the 'Counts as Swooping' Clause, and be forced to count the Model as Swooping for the purposes of this Restriction. Any action which puts it in a non-swooping state is in violation of this Restriction, and therefore illegal.
Nope. The rules provide for these occurences.
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
