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Fragile wrote:
Basic rule. FMCs can Deepstriking onto the board using Swooping.

Advanced. Monstrous Flock FMCs cannot Deepstrike since they cannot be put into Swooping.

You have shown no permission to change from Swoop to Glide using the MF rule. Nothing in the MF rule grants that.

The FMC Deep Strike onto the board using the Deep Strike rule.

Fragile wrote:
Basic rule. FMCs can Deepstriking onto the board using Swooping.

Advanced. Monstrous Flock FMCs cannot Deepstrike since they cannot be put into Swooping.

You have shown no permission to change from Swoop to Glide using the MF rule. Nothing in the MF rule grants that.

This. You're making an assumption that since Swooping is disallowed that any requirements to Swoop must be changed to Glide.
There's nothing allowing that, however. The right way to read the rules is that anything that requires Swooping is disallowed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Basic rule. FMCs can Deepstriking onto the board using Swooping.

Advanced. Monstrous Flock FMCs cannot Deepstrike since they cannot be put into Swooping.

You have shown no permission to change from Swoop to Glide using the MF rule. Nothing in the MF rule grants that.

The FMC Deep Strike onto the board using the Deep Strike rule.

Literally no argument.
Prove, using rules, that once it arrives it can Glide

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Basic rule. FMCs can Deepstriking onto the board using Swooping.

Advanced. Monstrous Flock FMCs cannot Deepstrike since they cannot be put into Swooping.

You have shown no permission to change from Swoop to Glide using the MF rule. Nothing in the MF rule grants that.

The FMC Deep Strike onto the board using the Deep Strike rule.

You keep parroting this. Deep Strike is forbidden due to MF. You have not found a permission in the MF rule to allow it.

Col_impact,
There are several reasons as to why you are misapplying Advanced Vs Basic

Let us address what you are trying to over-write using this Rule: A Codex Specific Restriction. Even if Basic Vs Advanced triggered in every situation where a Restriction occurs, I will address that point next, it specifically mentions that the Codex Rule takes precedence. It does not grant permission to re-write any of the rules creating the conflict to remove sections that cause problems, it grants us permission to completely over-write one of the two Rules entirely. Applying this Rule would require the 'more basic' Rule to be discarded and ignored entirely, we would have to follow the alternative instructions in the more advanced Rule to proceed.

In this situation we would have to drop the Deep Strike Special Rule, as we would need to ensure the Codex Restriction remains.

The other major point is that this Rule does not come into play unless there is a direct conflict between two Rules. This Rule can not be evoked every time a restriction prevents us from doing something, which is how you are defining a Conflict at the moment, as it was designed for those situations where we have two sets of instructions and no way of knowing which one is to be obeyed and which one is to be ignored. These conflicts are created because the two or more Rules in question directly relate to a single subject matter, but require us to do different things to that subject matter. If the two Rules relate to completely different things, they do not have the ability to create the sort of conflicts with each other that are resolved through Advanced Vs Basic.

There are many Rule Interactions where permission to do Xa has been granted, but Restriction Xb still renders the entire action of X illegal simply because Xb is not Xa.

 Byte wrote:
Random question. Are these new formations out of the new sold out book, Shield of Baal?

Yes, no?

JinxDragon wrote:
Col_Impact,
The problem is not Deep Striking, it is what occurs with this particular Model when it hit the table. It is forbidden from being in a Swooping state and there is no details informing us that this Restriction is only checked at specific times, so it is an on-going Restriction that has to always be obeyed. Upon Deep Striking this Rule will encounter the 'Counts as Swooping' Clause, and be forced to count the Model as Swooping for the purposes of this Restriction. Any action which puts it in a non-swooping state is in violation of this Restriction, and therefore illegal.

I've really got to agree with col_Impact on this one. Just because swoop is a result of deep-striking doesn't prevent you from deep-striking, via basic vs advanced.

If you have a unit with Moves Through Cover that's attempting to charge at another unit through cover, are you going to disallow them declaring a charge? Per the rules they are mandated to roll dice in a specific way due to the intervening cover, but Move Through Cover prevents them from rolling in that way - by your logic, as they are not allowed to perform that step, they are not allowed to declare a charge at all.

Similarly, can you actually shoot an Ork unit over 10 strong from the Waaaagh! Ghazkull supplement? Per the basic rules, should you inflict over 25% casualties and force a moral check, which if failed causes the unit to fall back. However an Ork unit over 10 strong (with a boss) from Waaaagh! Ghazkull will never fall back - can you not shoot them at all due to that prevention? Can't even -harm- fearless units by that criteria.

Deepstrike goes off without a hitch, Swooping is not relevant to that. Once deepstrike is through, you attempt to put the model into Swoop mode. You cannot, per the advanced rule in the formation. If models with Move Through Cover can charge through cover can charge, Ghazzkul's ork hordes can be shot at, and models with Fearless can be hurt at all, then there's nothing wrong with deepstriking in this instance.

EDIT:

 Byte wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Random question. Are these new formations out of the new sold out book, Shield of Baal?

Yes, no?

Yes, they are.

Morganfreeman,
That example does not make sense at all, because none of those actions are being Restricted.

Nothing prevents a Unit from Charging through Cover to begin with. To bring it more in line with the Deep Strike situation being discussed, it would be more akin to a restriction of 'this Unit can not Charge through Terrain' being over-turned by a Rule changing how far the Unit charges. Even if it is a Codex Specific Rule allowing the unit to charge up to 18 inches instead of 12, it still does not get to over-turn a Restriction stating that the Unit will not be able to charge through that particular piece of terrain.

Or to use your ork example:
Would you require such a Unit to take a Moral Test to simply because I have a Codex Rule stating Moral Tests are to be made with a 3d6?

JinxDragon wrote:
Morganfreeman,
That example does not make sense as nothing Restricts Charging through Cover to begin with... even a Unit without Move through Cover is legally able to declare that charge.
This would be more akin to a Unit possessing a restriction of 'this Unit can not Charge through Terrain' before pointing to an Rule which allows to Charge 3d6 though terrain as permission to over-turn this Restriction....

The issue here is that a part of the "rule" (if you deepstrike as a FMC, you must swoop) cannot be fulfilled due to an advanced rule.

If you declare a charge through cover, the way in which you roll your dice is different than a normal charge (I can't remember off the top of my head, oddly enough). Per "Moves through cover", you cannot compute with the mandate of the basic rule that you do something different than roll two d6 and add the result. Via basic or advanced, this is fine. Via your logic, this is not fine - because it's a fundamental part of charging through cover. You cannot charge at all with the unit, because that unit would simply roll a normal 2d6 instead of the specific way the rules tell you to in this case.

It's an ugly example, no argument, but it's absolutely relevant.

Guys,

Which track are you arguing from?

a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).

I am arguing from A since that is what is RAW. They always have Deep Strike and it is not accessed through Swooping or Gliding. The Swooping vs Gliding mode gets resolved via Basic v. Advanced after Deep Strike.

If you are arguing from B why are you even engaging in a debate at all? Per B a Deep Strike can't happen for you anyway.

The real debate is then for those that are arguing from B perspective is over A vs B.

A vs B is the real argument. Otherwise we aren't even working from the same premises and will be disconnected in our discussions.

 morganfreeman wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Col_Impact,
The problem is not Deep Striking, it is what occurs with this particular Model when it hit the table. It is forbidden from being in a Swooping state and there is no details informing us that this Restriction is only checked at specific times, so it is an on-going Restriction that has to always be obeyed. Upon Deep Striking this Rule will encounter the 'Counts as Swooping' Clause, and be forced to count the Model as Swooping for the purposes of this Restriction. Any action which puts it in a non-swooping state is in violation of this Restriction, and therefore illegal.

I've really got to agree with col_Impact on this one. Just because swoop is a result of deep-striking doesn't prevent you from deep-striking, via basic vs advanced.

If you have a unit with Moves Through Cover that's attempting to charge at another unit through cover, are you going to disallow them declaring a charge? Per the rules they are mandated to roll dice in a specific way due to the intervening cover, but Move Through Cover prevents them from rolling in that way - by your logic, as they are not allowed to perform that step, they are not allowed to declare a charge at all.

Similarly, can you actually shoot an Ork unit over 10 strong from the Waaaagh! Ghazkull supplement? Per the basic rules, should you inflict over 25% casualties and force a moral check, which if failed causes the unit to fall back. However an Ork unit over 10 strong (with a boss) from Waaaagh! Ghazkull will never fall back - can you not shoot them at all due to that prevention? Can't even -harm- fearless units by that criteria.

Both of those situations have rules to resolve them.
Cite a single rule that handles resolving one rule that requires you end up Swooping and another that restricts you from Swooping.

Deepstrike goes off without a hitch, Swooping is not relevant to that. Once deepstrike is through, you attempt to put the model into Swoop mode. You cannot, per the advanced rule in the formation. If models with Move Through Cover can charge through cover can charge, Ghazzkul's ork hordes can be shot at, and models with Fearless can be hurt at all, then there's nothing wrong with deepstriking in this instance.

Except, of course, the fact that you literally can't Swoop and you have no permission to Glide out of Deep Strike (aside from assumptions and made up rules). There are rules to handle Fearless, Ghaz hordes, and Move Through Cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Guys,

Which track are you arguing from?

a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).

I am arguing from A since that is what is RAW. They always have Deep Strike and it is not accessed through Swooping or Gliding. The Swooping vs Gliding mode gets resolved via Basic v. Advanced after Deep Strike.

If you are arguing from B why are you even engaging in a debate at all? Per B a Deep Strike can't happen for you anyway.

The real debate is then for those that are arguing from B perspective is over A vs B.

A vs B is the real argument. Otherwise we aren't even working from the same premises and will be disconnected in our discussions.

Neither. No one is arguing the ability of a FMC to Deep strike in general. Please actually read the thread.

col_impact wrote:
Guys,

Which track are you arguing from?

a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).

I am arguing from A since that is what is RAW. They always have Deep Strike and it is not accessed through Swooping or Gliding. The Swooping vs Gliding mode gets resolved via Basic v. Advanced after Deep Strike.

If you are arguing from B why are you even engaging in a debate at all? Per B a Deep Strike can't happen for you anyway.

The real debate is then for those that are arguing from B perspective is over A vs B.

A vs B is the real argument. Otherwise we aren't even working from the same premises and will be disconnected in our discussions.

Your trying to argue the point of the locked thread. Neither of those have anything to do with the Rule at hand. Please argue the point and not lock this thread over a rehash of those two points.

The issue here is that a part of the "rule" (if you deepstrike as a FMC, you must swoop) cannot be fulfilled due to an advanced rule.

There, you just summed it up. You cannot swoop due to an advance rule. If you cannot Swoop, you cannot do something that requires you to Swoop. Therefore you cannot Deep Strike.

rigeld2 wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Col_Impact,
The problem is not Deep Striking, it is what occurs with this particular Model when it hit the table. It is forbidden from being in a Swooping state and there is no details informing us that this Restriction is only checked at specific times, so it is an on-going Restriction that has to always be obeyed. Upon Deep Striking this Rule will encounter the 'Counts as Swooping' Clause, and be forced to count the Model as Swooping for the purposes of this Restriction. Any action which puts it in a non-swooping state is in violation of this Restriction, and therefore illegal.

I've really got to agree with col_Impact on this one. Just because swoop is a result of deep-striking doesn't prevent you from deep-striking, via basic vs advanced.

If you have a unit with Moves Through Cover that's attempting to charge at another unit through cover, are you going to disallow them declaring a charge? Per the rules they are mandated to roll dice in a specific way due to the intervening cover, but Move Through Cover prevents them from rolling in that way - by your logic, as they are not allowed to perform that step, they are not allowed to declare a charge at all.

Similarly, can you actually shoot an Ork unit over 10 strong from the Waaaagh! Ghazkull supplement? Per the basic rules, should you inflict over 25% casualties and force a moral check, which if failed causes the unit to fall back. However an Ork unit over 10 strong (with a boss) from Waaaagh! Ghazkull will never fall back - can you not shoot them at all due to that prevention? Can't even -harm- fearless units by that criteria.

Both of those situations have rules to resolve them.
Cite a single rule that handles resolving one rule that requires you end up Swooping and another that restricts you from Swooping.

Deepstrike goes off without a hitch, Swooping is not relevant to that. Once deepstrike is through, you attempt to put the model into Swoop mode. You cannot, per the advanced rule in the formation. If models with Move Through Cover can charge through cover can charge, Ghazzkul's ork hordes can be shot at, and models with Fearless can be hurt at all, then there's nothing wrong with deepstriking in this instance.

Except, of course, the fact that you literally can't Swoop and you have no permission to Glide out of Deep Strike (aside from assumptions and made up rules). There are rules to handle Fearless, Ghaz hordes, and Move Through Cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Guys,

Which track are you arguing from?

a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).

I am arguing from A since that is what is RAW. They always have Deep Strike and it is not accessed through Swooping or Gliding. The Swooping vs Gliding mode gets resolved via Basic v. Advanced after Deep Strike.

If you are arguing from B why are you even engaging in a debate at all? Per B a Deep Strike can't happen for you anyway.

The real debate is then for those that are arguing from B perspective is over A vs B.

A vs B is the real argument. Otherwise we aren't even working from the same premises and will be disconnected in our discussions.

Neither. No one is arguing the ability of a FMC to Deep strike in general. Please actually read the thread.

It is EXTREMELY relevant what premises people are arguing from. If the flyrant is deep striking at all then it is not doing so as dependent on Swooping so any B implicit thinking needs to be discarded altogether as totally irrelevant to the argument being discussed. So the Deep Strike happens. Resolve any conflicts between modes via the Basic vs Advanced rule since that is the way the rules provide for us to resolve conflicts.

If someone wants to argue with B thinking implicit then we need to take the argument directly to A vs B.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Byte wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Random question. Are these new formations out of the new sold out book, Shield of Baal?

Yes, no?

Yes, they are.

Thank you.

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Guys,

Which track are you arguing from?

a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).

I am arguing from A since that is what is RAW. They always have Deep Strike and it is not accessed through Swooping or Gliding. The Swooping vs Gliding mode gets resolved via Basic v. Advanced after Deep Strike.

If you are arguing from B why are you even engaging in a debate at all? Per B a Deep Strike can't happen for you anyway.

The real debate is then for those that are arguing from B perspective is over A vs B.

A vs B is the real argument. Otherwise we aren't even working from the same premises and will be disconnected in our discussions.

Your trying to argue the point of the locked thread. Neither of those have anything to do with the Rule at hand. Please argue the point and not lock this thread over a rehash of those two points.

The issue here is that a part of the "rule" (if you deepstrike as a FMC, you must swoop) cannot be fulfilled due to an advanced rule.

There, you just summed it up. You cannot swoop due to an advance rule. If you cannot Swoop, you cannot do something that requires you to Swoop. Therefore you cannot Deep Strike.

The whole point of A vs B is whether Deep Strike is dependent on Swoop. For A it is not. For B, FMC cannot Deep Strike and if somehow they could then Deep Strike would be dependent on Swoop.

We are arguing from different tracks. And you are making discussion of the real issue taboo for some silly reason, so no real way forward is possible, since in the background, we are actually arguing A vs B.

Morganfreeman,
I see where the communication error has occurred... you are making an assumption that my opposition to applying Basic vs Advanced to this situation means it can never be applied to any situation. I have never made the argument that Basic vs Advanced is never to be applied, only that a direct conflict must first occur before it is applied. This is because Rule Interactions can lead to multiple Restrictions being put forth on a situation, and unless we require a direct conflict then a single permission could over-turn a wide range of Restrictions in ways that clearly are not intended.

Example:
Charging after Disembarking from an Assault Vehicle that Arrived from Reserves.....

So I request you review this post again, as it will highlight some of the concerns I have had within:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/624393.page#7380120

col_impact wrote:

It is EXTREMELY relevant what premises people are arguing from. If the flyrant is deep striking at all then it is not doing so as dependent on Swooping so any B implicit thinking needs to be discarded altogether as totally irrelevant to the argument being discussed. So the Deep Strike happens. Resolve any conflicts between modes via the Basic vs Advanced rule since that is the way the rules provide for us to resolve conflicts.

If someone wants to argue with B thinking implicit then we need to take the argument directly to A vs B.

Basic vs Advanced does not allow you to do something that requires you to end Swooping if you're not allowed to Swoop.
This is what you are hand waving and refusing to address.

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

It is EXTREMELY relevant what premises people are arguing from. If the flyrant is deep striking at all then it is not doing so as dependent on Swooping so any B implicit thinking needs to be discarded altogether as totally irrelevant to the argument being discussed. So the Deep Strike happens. Resolve any conflicts between modes via the Basic vs Advanced rule since that is the way the rules provide for us to resolve conflicts.

If someone wants to argue with B thinking implicit then we need to take the argument directly to A vs B.

Basic vs Advanced does not allow you to do something that requires you to end Swooping if you're not allowed to Swoop.
This is what you are hand waving and refusing to address.

I am not hand waving anything.

Per the A track of thinking, Deep Strike is on the FMC and is not dependent on anything.

The Deep Strike happens. After it happens a conflict arises. The FMC rule conflicts with the MF rule.

The rules give me permission to resolve conflicts one way.


One of 2 things happen after the Deep Strike. Either the FMC is in MC mode per no mode active. Or it is in Glide mode per MF overriding. Or they simply co-exist since they are not in direct contradiction.


If you are going to argue, do not argue from a B track of thinking. There is no point to that. We would need to instead argue directly A versus B.

The conflict between Advanced and Basic occurs before you Deep Strike.

The advanced rule of MF says you cannot Deep Strike. You still have not shown any permission to overcome that advanced rule.

Fragile wrote:
The conflict between Advanced and Basic occurs before you Deep Strike.

The advanced rule of MF says you cannot Deep Strike. You still have not shown any permission to overcome that advanced rule.

How does the advanced rule of MF say I cannot Deep Strike? Remember, do not resort to any B track thinking.

I'm just going to post this from the 'How to Have an Intelligent Rules Debate' article posted in the Tenets:

Conflicts With Another Rule

If you've provided a set of premises that support your argument, but they are in conflict with another rule, your argument will not hold. It's important to remember to "Break No Rule".

For example, in 40K (4th edition) units that arrive on the table via deep strike "may not move or assault on the turn they arrive". However, if that unit has the 'Fleet' Universal Special Rule they are allowed to move D6" during the shooting phase in a turn they don't shoot. In this case there are two viable rule that clash; one stating that the unit cannot move that turn and the other saying the unit is indeed allowed to move if it doesn't shoot, so which one takes precedence? Because we must always strive to "Break no Rule" and moving at all during the turn a unit arrives via Deep Strike would break a rule we must play that the unit arriving via Deep Strike cannot 'Fleet' on the same turn.

To Deep Strike, the FMC must be able to Swoop and thus breaks the formation rule that forbids him from Swooping. By forbidding him from Deep Striking you have broken no rules.

col_impact wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The conflict between Advanced and Basic occurs before you Deep Strike.

The advanced rule of MF says you cannot Deep Strike. You still have not shown any permission to overcome that advanced rule.

How does the advanced rule of MF say I cannot Deep Strike? Remember, do not resort to any B track thinking.

MF says you cannot Swoop. Deep Strike requires you to place the Tyrant on the board in Swooping mode. That is a basic FMC fule, that is in direct conflict with a Codex rule. Therefore the Codex rule forbids DS.

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

It is EXTREMELY relevant what premises people are arguing from. If the flyrant is deep striking at all then it is not doing so as dependent on Swooping so any B implicit thinking needs to be discarded altogether as totally irrelevant to the argument being discussed. So the Deep Strike happens. Resolve any conflicts between modes via the Basic vs Advanced rule since that is the way the rules provide for us to resolve conflicts.

If someone wants to argue with B thinking implicit then we need to take the argument directly to A vs B.

Basic vs Advanced does not allow you to do something that requires you to end Swooping if you're not allowed to Swoop.
This is what you are hand waving and refusing to address.

I am not hand waving anything.

Per the A track of thinking, Deep Strike is on the FMC and is not dependent on anything.

The Deep Strike happens. After it happens a conflict arises. The FMC rule conflicts with the MF rule.

The rules give me permission to resolve conflicts one way.

Spoiler:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

One of 2 things happen after the Deep Strike. Either the FMC is in MC mode per no mode active. Or it is in Glide mode per MF overriding. Or they simply co-exist since they are not in direct contradiction.


If you are going to argue, do not argue from a B track of thinking. There is no point to that. We would need to instead argue directly A versus B.

You're separating the Deep Strike from the requirement to Swoop. You shouldn't.
The quoted rule does not give you the permission you say it does.
I can tell because it doesn't say anything like "Make up what you want the end result to be."

And yes, Swooping and Gliding are conflicting rules. You cannot be both.

 Ghaz wrote:
I'm just going to post this from the 'How to Have an Intelligent Rules Debate' article posted in the Tenets:

Conflicts With Another Rule

If you've provided a set of premises that support your argument, but they are in conflict with another rule, your argument will not hold. It's important to remember to "Break No Rule".

For example, in 40K (4th edition) units that arrive on the table via deep strike "may not move or assault on the turn they arrive". However, if that unit has the 'Fleet' Universal Special Rule they are allowed to move D6" during the shooting phase in a turn they don't shoot. In this case there are two viable rule that clash; one stating that the unit cannot move that turn and the other saying the unit is indeed allowed to move if it doesn't shoot, so which one takes precedence? Because we must always strive to "Break no Rule" and moving at all during the turn a unit arrives via Deep Strike would break a rule we must play that the unit arriving via Deep Strike cannot 'Fleet' on the same turn.

To Deep Strike, the FMC must be able to Swoop and thus breaks the formation rule that forbids him from Swooping. By forbidding him from Deep Striking you have broken no rules.

You have just proven my point that the main debate is versus these two tracks.

a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).

How about before anyone posts they indicate which track they adhere to? It is very important to make explicit what premises people are working from.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

It is EXTREMELY relevant what premises people are arguing from. If the flyrant is deep striking at all then it is not doing so as dependent on Swooping so any B implicit thinking needs to be discarded altogether as totally irrelevant to the argument being discussed. So the Deep Strike happens. Resolve any conflicts between modes via the Basic vs Advanced rule since that is the way the rules provide for us to resolve conflicts.

If someone wants to argue with B thinking implicit then we need to take the argument directly to A vs B.

Basic vs Advanced does not allow you to do something that requires you to end Swooping if you're not allowed to Swoop.
This is what you are hand waving and refusing to address.

I am not hand waving anything.

Per the A track of thinking, Deep Strike is on the FMC and is not dependent on anything.

The Deep Strike happens. After it happens a conflict arises. The FMC rule conflicts with the MF rule.

The rules give me permission to resolve conflicts one way.

Spoiler:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

One of 2 things happen after the Deep Strike. Either the FMC is in MC mode per no mode active. Or it is in Glide mode per MF overriding. Or they simply co-exist since they are not in direct contradiction.


If you are going to argue, do not argue from a B track of thinking. There is no point to that. We would need to instead argue directly A versus B.

You're separating the Deep Strike from the requirement to Swoop. You shouldn't.
The quoted rule does not give you the permission you say it does.
I can tell because it doesn't say anything like "Make up what you want the end result to be."

And yes, Swooping and Gliding are conflicting rules. You cannot be both.

Again, once again you are proving that we are really arguing over A vs B. The A track removes Deep Strike from the requirement to Swoop.

Your just Strawman'ing now.

...

No, we're not. In general, FMCs are able to deep strike.
That has literally nothing to so with the fact that there is a restriction from Swooping and a requirement to Swoop, and no rules to handle that conflict.

col_impact wrote:
While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units.

And as soon as you bring them in using Deep Strike, they're Swooping. You don't have a choice in the matter. You have broken a rule.

 Ghaz wrote:

col_impact wrote:
While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units.

And as soon as you bring them in using Deep Strike, they're Swooping. You don't have a choice in the matter. You have broken a rule.

I haven't broken a rule. There is just a conflict. And the rules provide a way to resolve conflicts, and we know what that way is.

You broke the Codex rule that says you cannot swoop and codex trumps your BRB Deepstrike rule.

rigeld2 wrote:
...

No, we're not. In general, FMCs are able to deep strike.
That has literally nothing to so with the fact that there is a restriction from Swooping and a requirement to Swoop, and no rules to handle that conflict.

In the A track of thinking, Deep Strike is not dependent on Swooping. If swooping happens after the Deep Strike and that conflicts with MF than any conflict arising from that gets resolved with the Basic Vs. Advanced Rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
You broke the Codex rule that says you cannot swoop and codex trumps your BRB Deepstrike rule.

You are arguing from the B track of thinking.

The A track of thinking lets the Deep Strike happen since Deep Strike is not dependent on Swoop.

And a rule did not break, only a conflict happened. And we know how to resolve conflicts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
Your just Strawman'ing now.

I am not strawmanning. Which Track do you adere to?

a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).

col_impact wrote:
..I am not strawmanning. Which Track do you adere to?

a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).

This is your strawman. Btw, I already answered this question above.

Your point has been disproven.