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These folks are on the right path.

I still don't quite think so. Jonol isn't the hypothetical newbie and I doubt any such person would immediately gravitate towards Dakka or any website to ask this question. I still think it'd be more likely to be someone you know, asking about your hobby, or some curious person poking their head round the door of your club or flgs. In which case 'find out what's played locally' becomes a bit... 'wait, what?'

What are you playing locally, that you think a newbie might like?

 Vermis wrote:

These folks are on the right path.

I still don't quite think so. Jonol isn't the hypothetical newbie and I doubt any such person would immediately gravitate towards Dakka or any website to ask this question. I still think it'd be more likely to be someone you know, asking about your hobby, or some curious person poking their head round the door of your club or flgs. In which case 'find out what's played locally' becomes a bit... 'wait, what?'

What are you playing locally, that you think a newbie might like?

That's generally what I had in mind for the thread. I know that 'whatever you can find opponents for' is a good answer if someone is actually asking you, but I was more interested in the hypothetical where any game you suggest will magically have abundant players. What games do you think are good for a new person to the hobby to get into on their own merits?

 Vermis wrote:

These folks are on the right path.

I still don't quite think so. Jonol isn't the hypothetical newbie and I doubt any such person would immediately gravitate towards Dakka or any website to ask this question. I still think it'd be more likely to be someone you know, asking about your hobby, or some curious person poking their head round the door of your club or flgs. In which case 'find out what's played locally' becomes a bit... 'wait, what?'

What are you playing locally, that you think a newbie might like?

My answer wouldn't change. Bolt Action is a game we play locally and also happens to be among the easiest of the lot to get into. Additionally I think that the 28mm scale and platoon sized games are easier for beginners to get started with instead of the smaller scales and/or huge armies many of the other games we play are like. Although Flames of War would be a better fit for someone who just wants loads of tanks.

I actually disagree with "find out what's played locally." It's always sounded like a good idea to jump right in to an existing community, but the more I've seen games wax and wane in popularity and how quickly the local attention can shift, I'd say if you're not going with something prepainted like X-Wing, the way to go is with what you want to paint. What you find cool and inspiring.

In terms of practicality, the game should be lower model count as you might have to make two forces and the terrain or it could be a self contained board game like game where it's easy to unpack and play.

1st consideration: What inspires you and what do you want to paint?
2nd consideration: What can you easily build two forces for and/or provide a self contained experience?
3rd consideration (perhaps as a tie breaker): What are other people doing locally?

I think making your enjoyment contingent on what other people do is a bad way to go about a hobby.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I actually disagree with "find out what's played locally." It's always sounded like a good idea to jump right in to an existing community, but the more I've seen games wax and wane in popularity and how quickly the local attention can shift, I'd say if you're not going with something prepainted like X-Wing, the way to go is with what you want to paint. What you find cool and inspiring.

In terms of practicality, the game should be lower model count as you might have to make two forces and the terrain or it could be a self contained board game like game where it's easy to unpack and play.

1st consideration: What inspires you and what do you want to paint?
2nd consideration: What can you easily build two forces for and/or provide a self contained experience?
3rd consideration (perhaps as a tie breaker): What are other people doing locally?

I think making your enjoyment contingent on what other people do is a bad way to go about a hobby.

I think that your considerations are great for a veteran gamer who knows what they like and is willing to paint both sides and hunt down opponents. It's roughly how I make my decisions, though even I have steered clear of some games because even though they're nice looking I know the club will never play them.

However, for a beginner, who may just want to play some games and meet some gamers, a prime consideration should be what is being played locally. The beginner isn't likely to have the connections to local gamers, or even the experience necessary to really learn and promote an unpopular game. Luckly in most places there will be at least a few games being actively played and hopefully one will interest the beginner. If there are so few games being played locally that no game or faction interests them, then they may have to make their own path, but it's not an easy road.

As for the shifting sands of local gaming, a chosen game may wane, but that at that point they will no longer be a beginner and they can make a better decision about what game to go to next, and will likely have some valuable knowledge about gaming and their local gaming community.

I can see the merit in what you are saying, but I don't see the merit in essentially asking people to get into a game because other people are interested in it. The obvious best case scenario is to see what local people are playing and luckily find that it works for you too.

I also get that some people are more focused on the gaming side of miniature wargaming and may not spend the majority of their hobby time working on miniatures or terrain. Those people should make the decision of what to play on both locally available opponents and enjoyable game play.

I don't actually think someone needs to put the time in on a game they aren't really interested in just so they can become a non-beginner so they can pick what they really want when their first game fades from local interest. I think they should figure out what they actually want first and just go for that. With the internet and the proliferation of reviews, how to play videos, forums and all that, people should be able to get a sense of how things work and gain an understanding of what works for them based comparing how different things sound or look.

The sooner someone realizes they shouldn't spend one second of their hobby time on something they don't enjoy, the better off they will be. If you're going to spend any time doing something because someone else likes it, it's best to get paid for it. As I said earlier though, the best case scenario is to find a game that is both enjoyable to you and is played locally, but that's not always an option easy to come by.

EDIT: Just thought of a local example. A guy posted on the FB group of a local board game club asking about miniature gaming. For some reason he decided he wanted to get into some sort of wargaming. I sent off a few emails and we arranged at the next monthly meeting (a 10am to 10pm sort of thing) we'd bring a few different games (WM/H, X-Wing, Black Powder) and told him he could read up on them in the mean time. He ended up telling us not to bother as in his readings he found Battletech and the miniatures and free quick start rules really clicked with him when he read them. Now he shows up regularly to the board game day to run BT for other people (I'll often play). He could have just settled for what was played locally, but instead he's doing what he wants and contributing more opportunities for a greater variety of games to be played locally. Yeah, for most of his opponents he has to supply everything, but that's par for the course when you take ownership of your own hobby and don't have it depend on the buy-in of other people. He didn't have to put in the time painting and playing with miniatures he didn't care about in order to figure out what he really wanted. I think that's not giving people enough credit. Especially when the internet exists.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I can see the merit in what you are saying, but I don't see the merit in essentially asking people to get into a game because other people are interested in it. The obvious best case scenario is to see what local people are playing and luckily find that it works for you too.

I also get that some people are more focused on the gaming side of miniature wargaming and may not spend the majority of their hobby time working on miniatures or terrain. Those people should make the decision of what to play on both locally available opponents and enjoyable game play.

Spoiler:

I don't actually think someone needs to put the time in on a game they aren't really interested in just so they can become a non-beginner so they can pick what they really want when their first game fades from local interest. I think they should figure out what they actually want first and just go for that. With the internet and the proliferation of reviews, how to play videos, forums and all that, people should be able to get a sense of how things work and gain an understanding of what works for them based comparing how different things sound or look.

The sooner someone realizes they shouldn't spend one second of their hobby time on something they don't enjoy, the better off they will be. If you're going to spend any time doing something because someone else likes it, it's best to get paid for it. As I said earlier though, the best case scenario is to find a game that is both enjoyable to you and is played locally, but that's not always an option easy to come by.

EDIT: Just thought of a local example.

Spoiler:

A guy posted on the FB group of a local board game club asking about miniature gaming. For some reason he decided he wanted to get into some sort of wargaming. I sent off a few emails and we arranged at the next monthly meeting (a 10am to 10pm sort of thing) we'd bring a few different games (WM/H, X-Wing, Black Powder) and told him he could read up on them in the mean time. He ended up telling us not to bother as in his readings he found Battletech and the miniatures and free quick start rules really clicked with him when he read them. Now he shows up regularly to the board game day to run BT for other people (I'll often play). He could have just settled for what was played locally, but instead he's doing what he wants and contributing more opportunities for a greater variety of games to be played locally. Yeah, for most of his opponents he has to supply everything, but that's par for the course when you take ownership of your own hobby and don't have it depend on the buy-in of other people. He didn't have to put in the time painting and playing with miniatures he didn't care about in order to figure out what he really wanted. I think that's not giving people enough credit. Especially when the internet exists

.

Fair enough. I do think that your guy is a bit of an outlier though as someone for whom minis and rules click so hard he's able to run with the game on his own. If a beginner is that self directed, motivated, and able to learn the game on their own then they're going to do exactly what you've described and more power to them.

I would put forth that most beginners aren't looking to become the local promoter for a virtually unplayed game and most that I've met haven't specialized their tastes enough to even know exactly what game they want to be playing. Getting those players plugged into a local gaming community is as valuable as finding their perfect game. This is not to say that you should play a game you hate. In my first post in this thread, I recommend checking out all the locally played games, playing demo's etc. Still, if you can limit your scope as much as possible to what's played, you'll have alot more opponents.

I would compare it to playing guitar. You buy your first guitar because it plays, and some vague combination of looking cool and features that you probably don't entirely understand. It's your second guitar that really reflects your taste in music, playing style, personal aesthetic, etc.

I'm probably spoiled in that a beginner here in the Chicago area has a really wide range of games he can play regularly if he's willing to drive 30 miles or so each time. Though in somewhere where there are far fewer players, it could be even more important to choose a game that's likely to have an opponent.

I'm actually not sufficiently knowledgeable about how people get into miniature gaming on average. I imagine when I got into it the way I did was fairly typical for the time (80s D&D) but I have no idea about today. Furthermore, my involvement in more general gaming clubs (especially board game clubs) means that if I encounter someone getting into miniature gaming, it's within the context of gaming in general rather than a 40k or WM/H or whatever gaming group.

I suspect, but do not claim to know, that the majority of people are introduced to the hobby by someone they know that already plays something. If this is the case then this theoretical beginner that's looking to get into miniature war gaming without knowing someone who already does it might be exceedingly rare.

I think advising new players to play as many different games as possible and read (and watch) online content about as many different games and miniature ranges as possible before they purchase anything is probably the best thing to suggest to new players.

I would actually recommend they start with some boardgamethat uses miniature pieces like "Last Night on Planet Earth", "Frag", "Mice and Mystics" or "Zombies" or something to start.

If they like those boardgames, then maybe they can graduate to the big boys rules.

 Easy E wrote:
I would actually recommend they start with some boardgamethat uses miniature pieces like "Last Night on Planet Earth", "Frag", "Mice and Mystics" or "Zombies" or something to start.

If they like those boardgames, then maybe they can graduate to the big boys rules.

And agian I point out Dust, start as a board game then move to table top with the same rule set.

My partner and I recently played a couple Fantasy Flight games that have been on our shelf for a few months. After reading the rulebook, re-reading the rulebook, popping out all the chits and tokens and sorting cards and setting up the game and going through a couple turns, it hit me:

I could explain Warmachine or Malifaux in 1/4 the time it takes to set up and learn quite a few FF games. I think the best games for beginners are ones that can have the guts of the game explained in a half hour or so.

Or, to quote "Broad City":




Also, the older gamer group I know got into Dust specifically because of the board game.