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 dusara217 wrote:

feth THE GRIMDARK. JUST MAKE A GOOD SETTING. I'm getting sick of everybody talking about the grimdark and how awesome the grimdark and this enhances the grimdark, and that enhances the grimdark. Just shut up about the fething grimdark.

Grimdark makes a good setting, it is what 40K is built upon.

Back on the subject of the Ultramarian IG, they should just be turned into ordinary regiments, sort of like how Cadia supplies a gak-ton of regiments for the IG, the Ultramarians should do the same instead of the Ultramarines having their own little private army of hypocrasy.

Why? Then we would have boring good guy Ultras and some boring IG regiments.

Also, SW truly believed that their Rune Priests weren't Psykers.

Then they were idiots (not particularly surprising.)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Genesis Chapter is not the Ultramarines Chapter so... no, it doesn't. It's not the same Chapter.

It is technically a separate chapter, but it is used by Ultras as additional reserves.

Lexicanum wrote:The Genesis Chapter is one of the closest chapters doctrinally and astrographically to the Ultramarines, often undertaking joint operations. The Genesis Chapter Space Marines also routinely fill the gaps in the Ultramarine companies if they fall below Codex strength, or fill specialist positions such as the Librarius or Forge staff.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Genesis Chapter is not the Ultramarines Chapter so... no, it doesn't. It's not the same Chapter.

It also bears noting that a Space Marine Homeworld is not required to tithe anything to the Adeptus Terra. Its tithe-grade is Adepta Non. Macragge is perfectly within its rights to maintain its own standing armies and such, in exactly the same way that every other Chapter with a populated Homeworld does. The only real difference here is that Ultramar is not some Stone Age backwater, but an advanced, thriving world of high-tech industry.

Ultramar is an entire mini-empire, its own "realm within a realm", with gargantuan numbers of Imperial Guard level forces under the command of the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines not in their role of Chapter Master, but as an Imperial Governor.

It's a rather awkward situation that I don't recall any other chapter enjoying the privileges of.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Ultramar is an entire mini-empire, its own "realm within a realm", with gargantuan numbers of Imperial Guard level forces under the command of the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines not in their role of Chapter Master, but as an Imperial Governor.

It's a rather awkward situation that I don't recall any other chapter enjoying the privileges of.

Its not that awkward. Ultramar answers to the Imperium of Man, with the Regent of Ultramar having rights to countermand such orders. The Ultramarines still function as a regular chapter does. It does not pull resources away from Ultramar to fulfill Chapter duties, merely to maintain and upkeep the Chapter, and all assets within the realm of Ultramar. I can easily imagine many other chapters doing the same.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
... dusara, let me tell you about this little thing called the Council of Nikea...

Which banned Librarians, not Rune Priests or Psykers in general. And I honestly can't remember who was the one who instigated that, but I thought that it was the Emprah reprimanding Magnus for researching the Warp before the Emperor had time to actually teach him.

So if Magnus had simply called all of his psyker warriors "ducks," he never would have been punished?

No other chapter holds a realm like Ultramar or the direct and immediate beck and call of so many successor chapters, and the Legions were split into Chapters and removed from command over the Imperial Army specifically so they couldn't draw upon such resources and large numbers of troops.

The Ultramarines are loyal *now*, but so was Horus at one point without question (to the point where Dorn even nearly killed the marines that brought him the news of Horus' rebellion). The whole point was to ensure another HH couldn't happen, with large contingents of marines in control of vast conventional forces and space fleets, even if it were unlikely.

The Ultramarines sire was the lead man on that whole thing, and that's why its awkward that the UM's are in the position that they are.

Ultramar now is not so different from Ultramar of then, though, either. This is exactly the sort of system that Guilleman set up.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Which banned Librarians, not Rune Priests or Psykers in general. And I honestly can't remember who was the one who instigated that, but I thought that it was the Emprah reprimanding Magnus for researching the Warp before the Emperor had time to actually teach him.

So if Magnus had simply called all of his psyker warriors "ducks," he never would have been punished?

The Council of Nikea happened because best mates Mortarion and Russ got together and had an anti-psyker party and decided to whine to daddy about how those evil Thousand Sons were corrupting all their other brothers with their stupid book learning.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Ultramarines are massive hypocrites, and clearly violate the spirit, if not the letter, of Codex Astartes.

And this is absolutely the coolest thing about them; it makes them something much more grimdark than just blue boy scouts.

feth THE GRIMDARK. JUST MAKE A GOOD SETTING.

Says the guy who plays the goofy Space Marines who ride giant wolves and get pulled in sleighs and have giant flying clown shoes with freeze rays and have long hair and beards that would make it impossible to seal a helmet for void warfare and William Murderfang Murderfang Murderfang.


So, what was your complaint about a good setting again?

1.) Brainwashing does not mean hypocrisy, nor does it mean idiocy. Also, everybody in 40k is just a toddler in big-ass Power armor, the Space Wolves are no different from the Ultramarines, who are no different from the Blood Angels, who are no different fro!m the World Eaters, who are no different from the Alpha Legion, who are no different from the Eldar, who are no different from the Dark Eldar, who are no different from the Necrons, who are no different from the Tyranods, who are not different from the Orks, who are no different from the Minotaurs, who are no different from the Space Wolves.
Long story short, EVERYBODY IN 40K IS AN IDIOT
2.) The SM were deprived of almost all of their power specifically because of guilliman. The Ultramarine Chapter Master has power over massive amounts of Guard forces, as well as a full Chapter of Space Marines (technically two), as well as a huge void fleet, as well as an entire system of powerful, self-sufficient, highly populated worlds with massive industrial capacity. The UM Chapter Master also has indirect power over at least 500other Chapters of Space Marines. Calgar has as much power as a Primarch. In short, the Ultramarines are massive hypocrites.

Also, sorry about any spelling or grammar mistakes, imcurrenty using a crappy tablet.

But Dark Eldar seems to be the safest race out there... Living in their own infinitely massive city... Cloning and growing new Eldar, technology to keep them alive, and resurect themselves indefinitely. Everything thing they is "just because they can" and like pain, and torment. Nothing about them really seems to be idiotic. Certainly different, but not really idiotic. I mean, they'll likely be the last ones around with the Necrons/ Tyranids/ or Orks.

 dusara217 wrote:
The Ultramarine Chapter Master has power over massive amounts of Guard forces,
/quote] Do we know that they are massive amounts of Auxilla? I haven't read about any indication of numbers.

as well as a full Chapter of Space Marines (technically two)

Controls a full Chapter of SM (technically two)? And the SW control... how much exactly? More. Lots more.

as well as an entire system of powerful, self-sufficient, highly populated worlds with massive industrial capacity.

And the reason the UM have that resource is because of Guilliman's strength - logistics. Hardly picking and choosing to have an advantage.

The UM Chapter Master also has indirect power over at least 500 other Chapters of Space Marines.

Indirect power, and several Chapter probably do not feel such close kinship with the UM after 10k Millennia, and some UM geneseed Chapters are not comprised of ex-UM. And still, Dark Angels have a relationship like this with their successors, but stronger.

Calgar has as much power as a Primarch.

And not Grimnar? Not Azrael? He doesn't directly control any Chapter other than the UM. Unlike aforementioned Chapters.

 Vaktathi wrote:
No other chapter holds a realm like Ultramar or the direct and immediate beck and call of so many successor chapters, and the Legions were split into Chapters and removed from command over the Imperial Army specifically so they couldn't draw upon such resources and large numbers of troops.

Indeed. The Astral Claws were smacked down originally precisely because they started their own mini-empire building, with establishing authority over other worlds and then raising non-Marine armed forces of their own.

Like with so much of the Imperium, what the letter of the law says and what is actually practiced can be entirely different.

An Inquisitor in theory and in law can do anything and answers to no one except the Emperor. Good luck however to the newly minted Inquisitor that tries to call for the execution of all the High Lords of Terra.

The Astral Claws were smacked down because they refused to pay their taxes. I'm pretty sure Ultramar get away with it by paying their taxes.

As for the Space Wolves, estimates extrapolated from the codex suggest that they actually only have one and a half, maybe two thousand Marines on hand... IE: about two chapters.

Areal commands about 7 - 8 chapters worth. Space Wolves are at about 1.5. Black Templar are at anywhere between 4 and 7, if I recall right.

2/3 of all space marines descend from Gulliman. It's pretty easy to see who won the aftermath of the heresy on the loyalist side.If even a third of those feel kinship with their birth chapter, it puts the Ultramarines far and ahead of the others.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
The Ultramarine Chapter Master has power over massive amounts of Guard forces,
/quote] Do we know that they are massive amounts of Auxilla? I haven't read about any indication of numbers.

as well as a full Chapter of Space Marines (technically two)

Controls a full Chapter of SM (technically two)? And the SW control... how much exactly? More. Lots more.

as well as an entire system of powerful, self-sufficient, highly populated worlds with massive industrial capacity.

And the reason the UM have that resource is because of Guilliman's strength - logistics. Hardly picking and choosing to have an advantage.

The UM Chapter Master also has indirect power over at least 500 other Chapters of Space Marines.

Indirect power, and several Chapter probably do not feel such close kinship with the UM after 10k Millennia, and some UM geneseed Chapters are not comprised of ex-UM. And still, Dark Angels have a relationship like this with their successors, but stronger.

Calgar has as much power as a Primarch.

And not Grimnar? Not Azrael? He doesn't directly control any Chapter other than the UM. Unlike aforementioned Chapters.

Oh, believe me, I wish that every Great Company was the size of a Chapter, but to quote a wise man "Space Wolves like dying". The largest Companies have, at most, 500 Astartes. Personally, I think that the Space Wolves should raise small regiments of Fenrisian Army units, since they would Mae fantastic shock troopers. But alas, Grimnar only commands 3 Chapters' worth of Astartes max, but more like 2k Astartes is the closest estimate. And, each Wolf Lord is a King in his own domain. Grimnar does not generally exercise direct control over Great Companies aside from his own; though he definitely has the ability to do so. Calgar, on the other hand, controls more Guard regiments than there are Cadian regiments, on top of having hundreds of Chapters at his beck and call, on top of a massive warfleet, on top of having control of a system of self-sufficient worlds filled with billions of citizen soldiers and that are more than capable of manufacturing battle barges and battleships and just about anything else should Calgar have need of it.

On the Dark Angels: the Dark Angels never tried to enforce their beliefs upon other chapters, they just resisted Guilliman's influence the only way they knew how to- by lying.

Also, the Ultramarines control an entire mini empire.

Calgar has control over the Ultramar Auxilia in the way the Queen has control over the Church of England, technically in charge, but leaves it to others.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Which banned Librarians, not Rune Priests or Psykers in general. And I honestly can't remember who was the one who instigated that, but I thought that it was the Emprah reprimanding Magnus for researching the Warp before the Emperor had time to actually teach him.

So if Magnus had simply called all of his psyker warriors "ducks," he never would have been punished?

The Council of Nikea happened because best mates Mortarion and Russ got together and had an anti-psyker party and decided to whine to daddy about how those evil Thousand Sons were corrupting all their other brothers with their stupid book learning.

Actually the Emperor and the sigilitte decided decades before Nikea that they would ban psykers as stated in the Mortarion short story.

No, that's what the Emperor told Mortarion to get him on side. The reality is that he almost certainly knew that an Imperium without psykers was not going to work. He was, after all, pushing humanity towards the psionic singularity.

 Vaktathi wrote:
IIRC Ultramar doesn't contribute directly to the Imperial Guard but runs its own PDF/"Ultraguard" for defense of the realm of Ultramar and nearby regions in support of the Imperial Guard, under the command of the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines in his role as Governor.

Rather odd however given the intentional cleaving of the Imperial Army from the Space Marines and the creation of the Codex Astartes to prevent exactly this sort of a setup from existing

Indeed that screams "legion" doesn't it. How do other marine home systems operate? Do they have PDF? I know certain deathworlds like Fenris don't, but are there other more inhabited worlds (aka any marine chapter worlds that are Hives or such?)

Most Chapter homeworlds don't have PDF and just rely on the resident Astartes, who usually leave behind a Company or two at all times to defend said world, to protect them.

Gotcha.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
The Ultramarine Chapter Master has power over massive amounts of Guard forces,
/quote] Do we know that they are massive amounts of Auxilla? I haven't read about any indication of numbers.

as well as a full Chapter of Space Marines (technically two)

Controls a full Chapter of SM (technically two)? And the SW control... how much exactly? More. Lots more.

as well as an entire system of powerful, self-sufficient, highly populated worlds with massive industrial capacity.

And the reason the UM have that resource is because of Guilliman's strength - logistics. Hardly picking and choosing to have an advantage.

The UM Chapter Master also has indirect power over at least 500 other Chapters of Space Marines.

Indirect power, and several Chapter probably do not feel such close kinship with the UM after 10k Millennia, and some UM geneseed Chapters are not comprised of ex-UM. And still, Dark Angels have a relationship like this with their successors, but stronger.

Calgar has as much power as a Primarch.

And not Grimnar? Not Azrael? He doesn't directly control any Chapter other than the UM. Unlike aforementioned Chapters.

Your quotes and responses are fethed up there but...

Controls a full Chapter of SM (technically two)? And the SW control... how much exactly? More. Lots more.

To be specific, the Ultramarines probably have a hundred thousand allied space marines, compared to the Space Wolves who just number around two thousand.