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Talys wrote:
There are proxies, and there are proxies.

If someone uses a model of the sergeant from DV and proxies him for a SM Captain, no biggie. As long as the weapons and armor are correct and the model is distinctively painted why not?

On the other hand, of someone takes a predator and proxies it for a land raider, or my favorite, 5 random vehicles as wave serpents.... well, Houston, we have a problem Or they say, "these dire avengers are fire dragons".

In terms of models in a GW store, I would say, same rules as a model submitted for a Golden Daemon: GW kit, GW kitbash, or scratchbuilt themed to a GW game.

In most cases I would agree, unless they are using them to try out a unit they don't have and want to see if they fit with their play style.

bibotot wrote:
I can see people are agreeing that we should use at least the right model and have the books in order to play.

But MY PROBLEM here is that I have ALL the requirements, and yet, have not found any game for a while.

The issue is they're not playing at the store then.

So....

(A) are they 'not playing' entirely? Have they given up?
(B) are they playing elsewhere? At home? At another club? At another store?

You need to be organised. Do you have their details? Phone numbers? Emails? Facebook/social media? Get in touch, find out where they are and where they are playing and see if you can re-engage with your local community. Simples.

So many of these issues can be solved by folks doing a bit of organisation and communication

Deadnight wrote:

You need to be organised. Do you have their details? Phone numbers? Emails? Facebook/social media? Get in touch, find out where they are and where they are playing and see if you can re-engage with your local community. Simples.

On this vein, we have a "Game Finder" thread here on dakka. Post up for your area, see if your buddies are watching and can let you in on their new hot spot.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
I still don't see the downside of you both bringing everything your army needs. If an extra rulebook and templates are 'cluttering up the gaming area' to the extent that it's better not to bring them, then you need a bigger gaming area. If you're worried about space then just leave them in the case or bag in which they were brought and the problem is solved.

Again, there is no downside to both players bringing rulebooks, only advantages.

Other than having excess clutter laying about to be in the way of other players thus interfering with their games and their enjoyment? possibly carrying so much excess stuff that they dont need that they are unable to buy any new product because they are too loaded down. of course, I fail to see the downside of making arrangements with your opponant beforehand and communicating with them in such a way as to make the game go more swiftly and smoothly while carrying less "poundage" in terms of exxcess supplies that would otherwise take up valuable gaming space.That is not the point. The point is forcing players to leave the store and not allowing them back in thus cutting off revenue, future revenue and alienating large numbers of clientele. because they made previous arrangements to ensure that they had everything they might possibly need without bringing doubles that are not needed.
I think a few of you are making a bigger deal than needs to be because someone points out that communicating with an opponent could lead to redundancy.

I might have missed it. has anyone provided an actual link from GW stating that this is a corporate wide policy that is set in stone with no exceptions or are we still going on hearsay and rumors? If not, it doesnt matter as that is a different topic altogether and I only mention it because someone else brought it in.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Other than having excess clutter laying about to be in the way of other players thus interfering with their games and their enjoyment? possibly carrying so much excess stuff that they dont need that they are unable to buy any new product because they are too loaded down....

...
I think a few of you are making a bigger deal than needs to be ....

The irony! It burns!


If having a second rulebook on hand clutters up the next table, surely you can just leave it in your bag until you need it?

And if you're so infirm that the 'extra' weight of the rulebook prevents you from carrying anything else, you probably shouldn't be standing around in a store for 3 hours playing a game in the first place.

So your saying that there is zero possibility as in never ever not even once a chance of two players being able to work out beforehand what each will bringr even*gasp* ride together to a shop to ensure that will both have access to what they need? Or that a player may not need even have everything for a game? shop owner "Sorry kid, you arent allowed in the shop any more because you forgot to bring a flamer template"d- "but I dont need it. I dont have any flamers or torrent weaponsthing in my army that needs to use it. Shop owner"sorry dss da rulesbeat it"kid- *pulls out hundreds of dollars*'but I wanted to buy whole new army with the money I've been saving up for the last 4 years" shop owner " Dont make me call the cops, we dont want your kind around here. Go spend your money somewhere else".

My point was that there COULD be situations where a player might not need to have every codex, rulebook pice of possible equipment. Whether this is through planning and communication with their opponent or simply not needing it. That there ARE times when it is possible for something to be redundant Not to say that it might not still be usefull ( players looking up a rule at once could make it get found faster), but that the possibility was there. For this a huge deal and production is made. Really, how hard is it to say,"you have a point, there might be times when it is redundant or not TOTALLY needed"?

 EVIL INC wrote:
So your saying that there is zero possibility as in never ever not even once a chance of two players being able to work out beforehand what each will bringr even*gasp* ride together to a shop to ensure that will both have access to what they need?

No, that's not what I'm saying. You can tell that's not what I'm saying by the fact that I didn't say it.

My point was that there COULD be situations where a player might not need to have every codex, rulebook pice of possible equipment.

Nobody is arguing that.

What they're saying is that asking players to bring their rules with them is a sensible rule, and isn't actually as big a deal as you seem determined to make it out to be.

 insaniak wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
So your saying that there is zero possibility as in never ever not even once a chance of two players being able to work out beforehand what each will bringr even*gasp* ride together to a shop to ensure that will both have access to what they need?

No, that's not what I'm saying. You can tell that's not what I'm saying by the fact that I didn't say it.

My point was that there COULD be situations where a player might not need to have every codex, rulebook pice of possible equipment.

Nobody is arguing that.

What they're saying is that asking players to bring their rules with them is a sensible rule, and isn't actually as big a deal as you seem determined to make it out to be.

As someone who worked in a GW store for 4 years, the reason for this rule is very simple: people were never bringing their own books and simply relied on the 1 store copy of the BRB. If that book was in use however, players were going over to the shelf with the rule books for sale and leafing through one of those copies. The Codices/Army Books were even worse!
What this lead to however, was a rather large number of damaged books that were no longer fit for sale due to players treating store product as if it was their own personal library to abuse in whatever ways they saw fit!
Thus, we weren't selling as many books, (because people just used the so-called "store copies"), AND we were also being forced to write off books as damaged product due to the neglect & misuse by regular players.

Thus, we took away all the store copies, and implemented the rule that if you didn't have all your required books with you when you came to play, then you couldn't argue any rules disputes and had to take your opponent at 100% truth!
People very quickly either miraculously 'found' their own books, (which were often in mint condition since they'd always been relying on the store ones), as well as the fact we found ourselves suddenly selling a good deal more books to both regulars & new comers alike!

Yes, some donkey-caves through a hissy fit at being told off to nut-up and stop acting as if the store was their own personal frat house, but those were the worst actual customers anyways who never dropped a dime in the store to begin with. (and good riddance to that kind of poisonous filth!)

Unfortunately, this sounds like a pretty common occurrence. Some people are leaving due to 40k's recent changes, but it also sounds like your store may be driving away with their silly policies. My suggestion would be to google local areas or call and see if any other comic shops have 40k nights. I don't think there is much you can do personally other than maybe mention this to the shop. It sounds like it may be a corporate thing or they may have made up their own reasons.

 insaniak wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
So your saying that there is zero possibility as in never ever not even once a chance of two players being able to work out beforehand what each will bringr even*gasp* ride together to a shop to ensure that will both have access to what they need?

No, that's not what I'm saying. You can tell that's not what I'm saying by the fact that I didn't say it.

My point was that there COULD be situations where a player might not need to have every codex, rulebook pice of possible equipment.

Nobody is arguing that.

What they're saying is that asking players to bring their rules with them is a sensible rule, and isn't actually as big a deal as you seem determined to make it out to be.

I'm not the one making a big deal out of it. I only made a side comment about how although its generally a good idea to bring everything you might need, there are situations where you might not need to bring everything if you KNOW your opponent has it and your both willing to share with one another. It was at that point you made a huge production out of it.

Experiment 626, Our local shop shrink wraps their books/codices to prevent that. If you worked at a shop, you will know that the majority of players actually DO bring their own stuff almost every time and only borrow on the rare occasions when they forget. I've found that generally, players are more than willing to share with one another "Hey, can I use your flamer template? Mine is in my other case" "sure".

To the OP. I agree with other sentiments, check social media, see if you can get #s of players about setting up games or playing somewhere else. Generally players usually do bring their own stuff but dislike when they aren told they HAVE to. Yeah, I know doesnt make sense to do something on your own and get mad when told what your already doing is a requirement. If I know I'm not going to be allowed to play because I forgot my flamer template at my buddies house even though the army I'm wanting to use for the day doesnt use anything that would require it's use, chances are, I'd just play at home or go play at my buddies house again. Such policies get places out of business fairly fast. Soon enough it will likely be gone and hopefully the indy that eventually replaces it will have better business sense. Good luck.

I sometimes forget things but never my wallet. I'd love for a retail business to tell me to GTFO because I didn't bring something other than the capital needed to purchase additional goods in their store.

Well, hey, people who run stores are people. Talk to them, tell them how you feel, and get them to change the policy.

You are a customer, you spend money there, you don't like the way the community is going. If they don't respond, get someone else to talk to them for you. If that doesn't work, organize your own gaming league in people's houses and advertise for it at the store.

There's no way you are the only person affected by these policy changes. You are the only one speaking up about it. Speak up louder and to people who can do something about it!

The discussion is rather fun with a "supplier" telling you what to do:

Q "So let me get this straight, I buy things from you but I have not bought enough items to be allowed to play in the store..."
A "Yes, you need the codex and rulebook on-hand in order for you to play."
Q "You have a store-copy available, could you not allow me to make use of it until I can make that purchase?"
A "Sorry, it is meant for a perspective buyer to look at in order to promote sales."
Q "Would not me using it be enough to help promote sale of that item?"
A "We would not want to create a differing GW experience, besides; we would not want to encourage others to do without or you all would want to borrow the same copy."

The GW sales person would probably also think if I cannot be bothered to buy a codex or rulebook I may not be a customer they want anyway to wring more sales from.
Does not promote the relaxing hobby experience but certainly epitomizes the cut-throat retail experience.
Makes an odd kind of sense.

 techsoldaten wrote:
...Speak up louder and to people who can do something about it!

I agree. It looks like people are speaking up in a very effective way.Not going to the store and not buying from them. The question is will the manager speak the language or will he run the store into the ground?

It's a GW, you're speaking like the manager has any say in the way it's run!

We hear repeatedly that while superficially the managers are free to adopt whatever they feel appropriate to make their store a success, in reality if they divert too far from the "one true way of GW" that they get moved on or possibly converted into servitors.

i've been to quite a few stores in my gaming life, some were ran well and some were ran with profit bloodlust..i've seen alot of stores put in place policys where the end result was "pay or leave"..which is understandable, the power bill dosen't get payed by free loaders, the key is providing an enviroment where you run on a monopoly on your gamer's wallets without making them feel like they are being robbed...for example back in the day i use to visit a store where every week at the same time we all met and had mini tournements where the store provided prizes out of pocket, had food and drink on hand for purcahse..and offered a discount card for a small fee which easily payed for itself after savings on a few purchases. What brought that nice enviroment to a halt was the fact that people would show up, not buy one thing and walk out weekly with the prizes provided for the loyal player who actually buy stuff, to try and win, Its really about a balance, you could charge small fees to play..but the player should also get something in return, "renting" a table is stupid really, i can set a table up in my living room for free and have people over so why pay somebody to use theres plus waste my gas to drive there? Nowadays i do just that, have a room with a table set up where my friends and i nerd out...if your struggling in your community that hard, then form a network and pile into somebody garage or basement to play.

Gaming Clubs are huge in the UK - and in particular I know of at least two in London.

Have you looked into The Overlords (http://www.theoverlords.co.uk) or HATE (https://www.facebook.com/events/1456852601194716/)

I have no idea where you live but both of these groups have great reputations.

He says he's from Exeter in the OP, which is my neck of the woods.

Suggesting London based clubs to an Exeter based gamer is somewhat akin to me suggesting a San Diego based club for an LA based gamer. I mean, sure, it isn't the end of the world away, but it's a damn sight further than you're going to travel for a casual PUG!

EDIT

Crikey, the Overlords are in East London. Modify my SD/LA example to account for a ludicrous amount of traffic. London traffic is so bad I was able to return home from visiting friends in London, a journey of around 170 miles, in literally 15 more minutes than my friend was able to collect her husband from hospital - a round trip of 20, but in London traffic.

We have a substantial home/club gaming scene in Australia, organized through a couple large Aussie forums mainly and some facebook groups. You might need to look into something similar. We have shops too of course that get used but I prefer clubs and homes tbh. I highly recommend you looking for a local club that plays like this, you won't need to put up with a stores rules designed to promote sales or annoying players, fly bys screwing with your stuff etc.

It does seem as though the GW policies haven't helped foster your community. GW not realising how important that is is a large part of why their profits are sliding constantly and the players of other games are increasing at a rapid rate.

bibotot wrote:


First, the store issued a new policy where proxy models are illegal.

Then, the store disallowed players who don't bring a rulebook.

Understandable. But that's a killer in the long run. How am i supposed to get new stuff without testing it out in the first place? Most people try to avoid units with awful rules even if the models are great. Your GW store should have some Sample miniatures if they disalow proxies at all.

EVIL INC wrote:
I might have missed it. has anyone provided an actual link from GW stating that this is a corporate wide policy that is set in stone with no exceptions or are we still going on hearsay and rumors? If not, it doesnt matter as that is a different topic altogether and I only mention it because someone else brought it in.

I'm not sure if it is a new policy. My local GW doesn't have a "no proxies" or "no book = no playing" policy (at least, not that I've known about).
It's definitely a curious case. I thought it was an over-sea thing (barring OP's case), but it seems some folk from the UK have the same thing in their stores...

Azreal13 wrote:Suggesting London based clubs to an Exeter based gamer is somewhat akin to me suggesting a San Diego based club for an LA based gamer. I mean, sure, it isn't the end of the world away, but it's a damn sight further than you're going to travel for a casual PUG!

I was going to suggest King's Lynn (my local area), but it turns out Exeter is actually a lot farther than I thought... like, a lot.
It didn't grow legs and run to the other side of the UK, right?

I don't know where many places are here, and I've been here all my life.


Edit: Fixed the quote. I am having a really slow day.

Look for clubs, as stores exist to sell, and game-space is extra.
there are 2 shops listed in Exeter, as mentioned. Drop into the other one and ask around.
Look up the people who posted those stores into the Store Finder, and drop them a PM. See if their Dakka friends are around still. PM them.

There will still be people looking for a game, but it looks like you'll have to find them.
if you have everything you need to play, look at getting a table to game on. Bring the games to you. Be the store... if nothing else, you'll be on your way to getting a club going yourself.

In the Watford games workshop the guy's pretty cool about everything except proxies, he even said I could use my guardsmen with non-GW heads if I kept quiet about it. I turned up for a game, realised I have forgotten a tape measure and my rule book, and he just let me borrow the store ones. There isnt a huge community, probably about 10 people who turn up a lot,, but we are all very feircely devoted, and mainly cause the guy is fine with us doing whatever as long as it has something to do with GW. This probably disproves all the theories about company wide rules about rule books. In all likelihood its just that the guy who runs your store doesn't really understand what he's done.