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I am a Warhammer 40k fan living in Exeter, and every Friday I would go down to the shop with my army, have a game, roll dice, exchange banters, exclaim when some epic luck/bad luck happens and, generally, some fun. For a few months, this is what happens, but things changed now.

First, the store issued a new policy where proxy models are illegal. I am fine with this and paid some more money to buy the models I need.

Then, the store disallowed players who don't bring a rulebook, which is quite strange given a lot of people still come to play without having the rulebook. And having the rulebook and the Codex does not prevent some elementary mistakes from happening. But I still go with it and buy myself a rulebook because I have the rules on my PC and I can't bring that to the shop.

But last, here is the big thing happening right now: nobody is playing with me anymore. The store used to be stacked with players looking for games. 3, even 4, tables, are constant in use and people are urged by the owner to finish quickly (end on turn 5) so that the next guys can play. Now, 2 tables have game, the other empty. People are not playing anymore, and when they do, they play with someone they book the table together with in advance. I don't see any new player coming, and a lot of old players are not coming to play as often as they did. Very few are either friendly or helpful anymore. Instead, they go to the store just to paint or have a talk. And this is sad because I am into the hobby and look forward to expand my army. If this continue, where can I find the motivation to buy new models if I know I won't get to use them?

I hate to say this, but my local community is dying or something. When I went to London, the store there only allow people with gaming table if they book in advance, because so many are there to play. I actually prefer this because while it is uncomfortable having to come early and book for game, this guarantees the chance of playing.

I don't want to believe I have wasted money and time and effort to get into playing Warhammer 40k for nothing. I don't want to give up the tabletop and focus entirely on Dawn of War 2.

Anyone here having any problems with you community just like I do?

Is this a GW store?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Is this a GW store?

Yes, it's a GW store. I don't know where else I might find somebody to play with.

The community is dying, and it is because your store has implemented two policies that do not foster a sense of community. Has the store made any other changes you haven't mentioned? That would also be a contributing factor.

GW appears to be dying a slow death.

Is there another place that people may be playing in the area? they may have migrated to a different store with more relaxed rules.

I know the community in my area is a bit spread out and there are less people playing, part of that has to do with the time of year and I know several people are working on massive upgrades to existing armies or building a new one.

Something to consider is talking with the store manager about doing a paint and play or escalation league or just a normal league to encourage people to play while they build up armies. I haven't played a lot of games lately because I am spending a lot of my free time assembling the 260+ Tyranids I have waiting in various stages.

This thread is not about GW itself or any urban legend "slow death", but a single "local store" and it's community.

I agree, it appears that the store has implemented a policy that is running off customers. Likely, they are just going to other shops (possibly even traveling distances to get there rather than play at a shop with policies they dont like) or they are becomeing basement players (as someone in another thread coined anyone who plays at home rather than in stores). My guess is either the shop will change policy or run itself out of business (in which case its only a matter of time before an indy pops up)
I would say, see if you can contact the players you no longer see and find out where they are playing now and join them there. might even be good to host games yourself.

bibotot wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Is this a GW store?

Yes, it's a GW store. I don't know where else I might find somebody to play with.

All those were company wide policies. A lot of people are rubbed the wrong way by GWs policies and find other places to play and buy.

Having said that though there is a huge problem with gamers in this hobby that cant afford the hobby and end up buying a few items, trading for the rest, never properly learning the game and never buy anything again for months. GW actively started cracking down on the "social club" aspects of their stores because certain people can actually scare off new customers via attitude or appearance. These types are the ones that tell people where to get deals in other stores and always ask for a store copy of the rulebook. They just aren't good to have around. And worse yet they feel entitled to the store space that they don't support like buying one box means they get a life pass.

Besides that you might just be seeing the growing disinterest in 40k, the neck break release speed combined with the abortion of 6th just 23 months in only to ask for another $100 rulebook is scaring people off, its over saturated, no one can keep up, and to top it off the game in an unfiltered way is absolutely stupid. When you need to have a 10 minute conversation on what you can and cant use there is big problems, more so when you can call a game before the dice are rolled based on what either person has. To counter all this I suggest a small league, either run by the store or individuals, make it a challenge to make 1000pt armies that follow restrictions and get armies you never tried before, some times its all you need to rekindle what you really liked about this hobby, hell I just made an all wraithguard foot eldar, it sucks competitively but its fun to use.

Long story short is you need to rethink your relationship with GW, make it work for you, or let it be and move on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The community is dying, and it is because your store has implemented two policies that do not foster a sense of community. Has the store made any other changes you haven't mentioned? That would also be a contributing factor.

If I had to guess they also put in no trading bits in store, no non GW talk, no negative GW talk including saying a unit sucks, in that case they want you to say that it "provides a different hobby challenge."

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The community is dying, and it is because your store has implemented two policies that do not foster a sense of community. Has the store made any other changes you haven't mentioned? That would also be a contributing factor.

The disallowing of proxies has been a rule at my local GW for ~5-6 years, maybe more. It was annoying, more than anything, and whilst understandable if someone came repeatedly using the same proxies for a unit with no intention of buying the actual models, for someone looking to try before buying, they often played at the FLGS up the road to test stuff out instead.

The rulebook one, however, is one I can't really fault the store for implementing. If people are turned away by the daunting prospect of having to *gasp* bring in a rulebook, then they're not exactly people I'd want to play. I want to play against someone who can check up on the rules he's using, instead of relying on "I think it's _____" or "I'm not sure about _____ but I can't check it; want to dice-off on it?". I always brought my rulebook, codex, and FAQ, so if anything did crop up it could be looked up, and to be frank, that's not so much preparedness as just being damn sportsmanlike.

If those are the only two policies, then--as much as I hate to say it--I can't exactly see it as being the store's fault. The 'no proxy' rule I thought would be pretty standard by now, and it didn't really affect numbers anyway. The rulebook one is simply trying to get players to exhibit common sense and decency.

Why should BOTH players in a single game bring a rulebook? if I know who I am playing ahead of time and we agree to take turns bringing the book so that there is always one at our table, having a second one laying there that never gets opened is redundant.

Likewise the idea that all social players are smelly stinky players trying to run other players off along with the mythical person (that doesnt exist) who buys a single box set and expects a life pass.

This store will either learn it's lesson or fall to be replaced by an indy. More likely, the home company will notice the loss of sales and replace the manager with another who will implement different standards.

bibotot wrote:
I am a Warhammer 40k fan living in Exeter, and every Friday I would go down to the shop with my army, have a game, roll dice, exchange banters, exclaim when some epic luck/bad luck happens and, generally, some fun. For a few months, this is what happens, but things changed now.
First, the store issued a new policy where proxy models are illegal. I am fine with this and paid some more money to buy the models I need.

Good for you to contribute but not all would be quite so willing.
The person in charge may have noticed many play but do not pay.

Then, the store disallowed players who don't bring a rulebook, which is quite strange given a lot of people still come to play without having the rulebook. And having the rulebook and the Codex does not prevent some elementary mistakes from happening. But I still go with it and buy myself a rulebook because I have the rules on my PC and I can't bring that to the shop.

Again, similar to no proxies: noticed many may not have the books and another attempt to get some sales... somewhat reasonable.

But last, here is the big thing happening right now: nobody is playing with me anymore. The store used to be stacked with players looking for games. 3, even 4, tables, are constant in use and...

Possibly some issues where people may not have been willing to update their armies

people are urged by the owner to finish quickly (end on turn 5) so that the next guys can play.

People being rushed for a leisure activity does not make a relaxing atmosphere, I would be looking around elsewhere as well...

Now, 2 tables have game, the other empty. People are not playing anymore, and when they do, they play with someone they book the table together with in advance.

People do not want to go there and hang-out with the chance of not getting a game in so arranging makes sense but pretty much kills "pick-up" games.

I don't see any new player coming, and a lot of old players are not coming to play as often as they did. Very few are either friendly or helpful anymore. Instead, they go to the store just to paint or have a talk. And this is sad because I am into the hobby and look forward to expand my army. If this continue, where can I find the motivation to buy new models if I know I won't get to use them?

If this is the only place to go in the area you do have some decisions to make.

I hate to say this, but my local community is dying or something.

I think the policy's the owner put in place assumed things were thriving when they are not (blanket corporate policy they MUST follow even if the environment does not support it?)

When I went to London, the store there only allow people with gaming table if they book in advance, because so many are there to play. I actually prefer this because while it is uncomfortable having to come early and book for game, this guarantees the chance of playing.
I don't want to believe I have wasted money and time and effort to get into playing Warhammer 40k for nothing. I don't want to give up the tabletop and focus entirely on Dawn of War 2.
Anyone here having any problems with you community just like I do?

I have found sometimes these things do happen. You may have to show-up and paint and just let it be known you are available to play.
It may pick-up again but, in the meantime get what you do have to a good standard and be an ambassador of the hobby in hopes to get some people out.
Having a few models visible to those walking around can help advertise.
I would suggest getting into another game as "back-up" in case the area dries-up for a bit too long.

I found from experience that being locked-in a single hobby rather limits the social experience, find other things to fire the imagination and better promotes playing with strangers (sounds rather wrong in those terms...).

 EVIL INC wrote:
Why should BOTH players in a single game bring a rulebook? if I know who I am playing ahead of time and we agree to take turns bringing the book so that there is always one at our table, having a second one laying there that never gets opened is redundant.

Because it's polite to actually bring everything with you that you might need, it's a good habit to have, and on the off chance that someone might forget it or misplace it. It can also be nice having both players looking up a rule instead of having one twiddling his thumbs, and makes issues able to be resolved much faster than passing one book between the players.

So it might be redundant in some games, there is no downside whatsoever to bringing it, so why would you not?

 EVIL INC wrote:

This store will either learn it's lesson or fall to be replaced by an indy. More likely, the home company will notice the loss of sales and replace the manager with another who will implement different standards.

...and who would subsequently be sacked for failing to follow corporate policy...

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
Why should BOTH players in a single game bring a rulebook? if I know who I am playing ahead of time and we agree to take turns bringing the book so that there is always one at our table, having a second one laying there that never gets opened is redundant.

Because it's polite to actually bring everything with you that you might need, it's a good habit to have, and on the off chance that someone might forget it or misplace it. It can also be nice having both players looking up a rule instead of having one twiddling his thumbs, and makes issues able to be resolved much faster than passing one book between the players.

So it might be redundant in some games, there is no downside whatsoever to bringing it, so why would you not?

Ahem, thats the point. When you make arrangements with another player and one of you are bringing the rulebook, You ARE being polite and bringing everything you might need. The same can be said of templates as well.
Here is an example, I make arrangements with my buddy to go to the shop and play even though we COULD play at home, we prefer to help the store out by giving them free advertising in demonstrating games to potential customers. I brought my rulebook (I know I did because I stuck it in my case). I stop to pick my buddy up and tell him I have my rulebook, can he bring his templates. I watch him put them in his case and we go to the store.
Now, should the store kick us out and ban us from ever playing (and thus buying) from there again because we were polite enough to bring everything we might need while not cluttering up the gaming area with stuff redundant stuff we dont need? Seems like they would be shooting themselves in the foot to me. According to the OP, it appears that this is just what is going on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:

This store will either learn it's lesson or fall to be replaced by an indy. More likely, the home company will notice the loss of sales and replace the manager with another who will implement different standards.

...and who would subsequently be sacked for failing to follow corporate policy...

Possibly, possibly not. I would imagine that money talks. if the store were to quadruple income and become one of the most prosperous shops in the country, I dont think that would happen. I could be wrong though.
Has anyone provided the copy of corporate policy that states this is so? I dont mean someone saying it, I mean an actual copy of it. Citing sources and all that.

I still don't see the downside of you both bringing everything your army needs. If an extra rulebook and templates are 'cluttering up the gaming area' to the extent that it's better not to bring them, then you need a bigger gaming area. If you're worried about space then just leave them in the case or bag in which they were brought and the problem is solved.

Again, there is no downside to both players bringing rulebooks, only advantages.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The community is dying, and it is because your store has implemented two policies that do not foster a sense of community. Has the store made any other changes you haven't mentioned? That would also be a contributing factor.

The disallowing of proxies has been a rule at my local GW for ~5-6 years, maybe more. It was annoying, more than anything, and whilst understandable if someone came repeatedly using the same proxies for a unit with no intention of buying the actual models, for someone looking to try before buying, they often played at the FLGS up the road to test stuff out instead.

The rulebook one, however, is one I can't really fault the store for implementing. If people are turned away by the daunting prospect of having to *gasp* bring in a rulebook, then they're not exactly people I'd want to play. I want to play against someone who can check up on the rules he's using, instead of relying on "I think it's _____" or "I'm not sure about _____ but I can't check it; want to dice-off on it?". I always brought my rulebook, codex, and FAQ, so if anything did crop up it could be looked up, and to be frank, that's not so much preparedness as just being damn sportsmanlike.

If those are the only two policies, then--as much as I hate to say it--I can't exactly see it as being the store's fault. The 'no proxy' rule I thought would be pretty standard by now, and it didn't really affect numbers anyway. The rulebook one is simply trying to get players to exhibit common sense and decency.

I am fine with adhering to the rule. I have rulebook and Codex, I play with the right models, I bring army list. I just hate when people do in a wrong way:

- Having a rulebook and Codex does not prevent making mistakes that are OBVIOUS. I have seen this time and time again. Veteran squads with 15 models. Pask having Warlord Trait even though he is not Warlord. Dangerous terrain check and -2" charge distance for MC. No Invulnerable on Defilers and other daemonic engines. Why do I know more about your Codex then you do? Many more.

- wysiwyg is for professionals only. I use the right models but not the upgrades because I don't have time and effort to magnetize stuffs. I hate seeing starters playing with wysiwig because it feels wrong. A lot of people in my community use it as an excuse for not having army list, or actually thinking about what to have in an army, or making their army legal point-wise.

"What does this Dreadnought have?"

"I don't know."

"What is in your army list?"

"I don't have one."

"The model indicates Hurricane Bolter."

"OK, so what does Hurricane Bolter do?"

"It's your army, your Codex, go figure it out."

It's outright frustrating. People should have some thoughts about what they bring before going to the store. Don't check the rulebook and the Codex all the time.

 insaniak wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:

This store will either learn it's lesson or fall to be replaced by an indy. More likely, the home company will notice the loss of sales and replace the manager with another who will implement different standards.

...and who would subsequently be sacked for failing to follow corporate policy...

My local GW allows proxies so long as they're made of GW materials (or in the specific case of defence lines, they've outright said plasticard is fine if you're trying to get a line that fits your Xenos army rather than looking imperial, so long as it's a scratch built thing) and doesn't pay much attention to what books you have.

Some managers will be laxer than others depending on what they consider important rather than trivial.

I was lightly chastised for playing 6th edition once, but that was within a month of the new edition and neither me or the other guy has a lot of spare hobby cash for big books at that particular moment. They didn't make us stop, just encouraged us to switchover soon.

Something like this actually happened a little while back in my area, the only local store owner started some bad practices. We'd run a roster of who to play who, so you'd essentially get to play everyone at least once, with games outside this allowed. If you didn't buy something every couple weeks however, he started taking you off said list, meaning you were much less likely to get a game in. He also made it that models had to be painted and flocked to his liking to play them, no proxies.

Then, he made a rule that you couldn't trade anything in his store. From card games to models, he wanted to charge a fee if you made any sort of trade with anyone that you met in his store, and you couldn't compete in anything if you didn't. Even if it was outside the store and he found out about it somehow.

Yeah, let's just say a lot of people left. A couple guys actually opened a new gaming club (with blackjack and hookers), and many still go there. He got rid of all his rules and regulations, but he still doesn't get nearly the people he used to. Now that he undid said changes I go there, but I go to the other store an equal amount.

Maybe speak to some of the other local players and see if they have noticed the same thing. Also see if it is a normal thing in your area. In my area the local GW and FLGS slow down over the winter, especially during mid November to mid January.
This is a combination of Christmas requiring their extra time and funds, and the cold and snow making travel more tedious, so people wanting to make the trip less.
We tend to notice that it picks back up in late February-mid march, as people get over it being winter, and are eager to play with the models they got/painted for Christmas.

As others have said, it could be another FLGS in your area, or maybe a gaming club of some kind. These will be things that you'll need to ask around about.

Don't get too disheartened. The town I used to live in had it's only FLGS (with no GW store within 2 hours drive) closed up, and it was all doom and gloom. With very little effort, we put together a club, and I'm pretty sure we had more members than people I saw at the FLGS. Obviously this isn't a sure fix, but having a local store start to slow down isn't necessarily a sign of the coming apocalypse.

Remember these are stores, they exist to sell producst and make money, not as your personall clubhouse. letting you play there is a reward not a right. so the owner is perfectly in his right to ask you not to conduct side business on his premises, and to require you to buy the product to play the game

Seek out an independent club or alternative store.

There's Clifton Road Games in Exeter itself - they're totally GW free though, so you might have to suffer the tremendous enjoyment of taking up X Wing or one of the other systems that are popular.

You've got Kirton Games in Crediton, they run various events every week from beginner sessions to veterans, GW games and non-GW games.

There's a large and active club too, I forget the name, but I'm pretty sure the guys who run Kirton have close ties (they're co-hosting am X Wing tourney next year) so I'm sure they can put you in touch.

If you're willing to travel, my lot meet in Barnstaple on a Mo day night.

Bottom line, the GW is probably one of the worst places to game in the area, move on and broaden your horizons!

We wrote:
Remember these are stores, they exist to sell producst and make money, not as your personall clubhouse. letting you play there is a reward not a right. so the owner is perfectly in his right to ask you not to conduct side business on his premises, and to require you to buy the product to play the game

Sure, but just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should do something. If you want to run a successful retail store in a world where online stores sell all of your products at lower prices you have to make your customers like you enough to give you charity donations. And that means letting your customers treat your store like their personal clubhouse. If you don't offer the clubhouse experience then you aren't going to have any customers.

And let's not act like the store owner is being reasonable here. They went beyond banning side business in their own store and demanded a share of every sale/trade "their" customers were involved in, even when the sale/trade happened away from the store.

Thats silly how can anyone really expect to be allowed to play Proxies and no rules or copied rules in a GW store?

Honestly you can foster a decent community anywhere as long as you all work together AND with the Store, even GW to figure out what you ALL need and want.

I can see people are agreeing that we should use at least the right model and have the books in order to play.

But MY PROBLEM here is that I have ALL the requirements, and yet, have not found any game for a while.

bibotot wrote:
I can see people are agreeing that we should use at least the right model and have the books in order to play.

But MY PROBLEM here is that I have ALL the requirements, and yet, have not found any game for a while.

Have you tried a text community or perhaps tried to start a campaign kinda thing?
or is it school season where you are? (honest question)
People get busy ya know especially in the holiday season.

at best find some people you like make a text group and prearrange games and dates.

kb305 wrote:
GW appears to be dying a slow death.

In the UK? I can see in North America, where in my city, 40K is dead, but in the UK, I thought GW and 40K is popular. Surprised to read this is happening in UK now.

To the OP all you can do now is just be a collector or quit. Since nobody played where I live, I collected for a bit then quit. Coming back now, but just for painting modelling and collecting. Still no gaming.

So it seems you have 2 options. Quit, or just collect until people start gaming again.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Ahem, thats the point. When you make arrangements with another player and one of you are bringing the rulebook, You ARE being polite and bringing everything you might need. The same can be said of templates as well.
Here is an example, I make arrangements with my buddy to go to the shop and play even though we COULD play at home, we prefer to help the store out by giving them free advertising in demonstrating games to potential customers. I brought my rulebook (I know I did because I stuck it in my case). I stop to pick my buddy up and tell him I have my rulebook, can he bring his templates. I watch him put them in his case and we go to the store.
Now, should the store kick us out and ban us from ever playing (and thus buying) from there again because we were polite enough to bring everything we might need while not cluttering up the gaming area with stuff redundant stuff we dont need? Seems like they would be shooting themselves in the foot to me. According to the OP, it appears that this is just what is going on.

You're making this into a bigger issue than it actually is.

Requiring every player to bring their own rules serves to ensure that every player has the rules they need to play the game. It's that simple.

Sure, there are situations where you've arranged a game with someone, and they're supposed to bring the book. And then that other guy doesn't show up, and you wind up playing against someone else, and neither of you has a book (or the other guy just doesn't like having other people go through his books)...



Frankly, I prefer having my own stuff on hand anyway.

Possibly, possibly not. I would imagine that money talks. if the store were to quadruple income and become one of the most prosperous shops in the country, I dont think that would happen. I could be wrong though.

For what it's worth, we've had examples in the past of GW managers being warned by head office, or being removed, because their store was doing well but was doing so in a way that differed from the official 'right way'.

Money only talks so loud. Corporate Yes-men coming up with business strategies despite never having actually managed a store talk louder.

Some very good advice here about finding a non-GW group and some cold hard truths about the corporate priorities of GW.

It made me think how lucky I am - am equidistant from the weekly meeting of Wargamers Association of Reading, a FLGS - Promethean Games (with loads of table space) - Bracknell and Bracknell + District Wargamers Club.

All I need now is time to do any of these justice!

Good luck in your search for a games group.

There are proxies, and there are proxies.

If someone uses a model of the sergeant from DV and proxies him for a SM Captain, no biggie. As long as the weapons and armor are correct and the model is distinctively painted why not?

On the other hand, of someone takes a predator and proxies it for a land raider, or my favorite, 5 random vehicles as wave serpents.... well, Houston, we have a problem Or they say, "these dire avengers are fire dragons".

In terms of models in a GW store, I would say, same rules as a model submitted for a Golden Daemon: GW kit, GW kitbash, or scratchbuilt themed to a GW game.

My store has had those rules for as long as it's been open. I like those rules as I quickly tire of playing people who use their entire army as something completely different and never seem to have the rules on them. It hasn't hurt our player community at all. Try to find out where everyone has migrated to. I'm sure they didn't all just stop playing. They just migrated to somewhere that allows people to use transformers as riptides without even having the tau codex...