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 jonolikespie wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
In Australia they could easily lose 30% and still be more expensive than their competition.

But they don't just need to drop their prices, they also need to make a game worth playing. At the moment, they're not doing that.

Or make the models worth collecting. They really just can't stand up to the 52 and 75mm resin sculpts you can by for the same price or cheaper. GW have this idea that they are selling to collectors but compared to the collector's market they really are no better than toys in many cases.

That too.

But some of that they just can't fix due to the way they design their games. Since there's so many options, they need to make their stuff as modular as possible, right down to individual little details. So their rank and file units and some of their bigger models suffer in decent posing options without severe cutting and filling. Then add the model counts needed for games and the desire to not have repeat poses. When they do a single pose model these days, like their single clampack plastic characters, they're usually quite nice.

But when you take, say, an Ork Boy or a Tactical Marine that have been built without cutting and filling with just stock parts and stand them next to models from other ranges that have single pose models (even plastic single pose) and they're really lacking.

However, that undermines their idea that they're selling to collectors and not to gamers. If they were selling to collectors, they'd simply make the best miniatures they could (like they do with their single pose models) and not bother too much with the multipart natures of many of their kits. It really is quit an odd situation on the model quality side of the issue.

I'd love to see what GW actually COULD do with cheap models, say, €1 per figure. Given the quality of Dark Vengeance, I'd say the results would be pretty sweet. I'd buy the gak out of "GW budget line".

i think they should at least think about decreasing cost and relying less on older methods of making miniatures. Transfer from casts to actual digital 3d printing machines, which can be more personalized and better created and allow for more personalization.

As someone who studies 3d modelling. I can tell you over the long term if you simply make it not by hand but by machine you are going to have far more detail from a computer than from a cast.*


*as long as it is in capable and experienced hands.

For painting and assembling.

 cincydooley wrote:
For painting and assembling.

Bad dum tish.

Yeah because I paint my marines.

*Plastic and unpainted marines.*

 prowla wrote:
I'd love to see what GW actually COULD do with cheap models, say, €1 per figure. Given the quality of Dark Vengeance, I'd say the results would be pretty sweet. I'd buy the gak out of "GW budget line".

Down here the budget line is called forgeworld, and for the price they do some pretty sweet models compared to the expensive 'regular gw' range.

I used to buy a fair bit at the US retail prices, it was right at the limit of what I could tolerate, but the new kits all costing 20-30% more than their predecessor really broke what I could do. $50 for 5 plastic sternguard? $30 for a single Space Marine character? $35 for 5 monopose plastic guardsmen? $50 for a tonka truck?

The mediocre quality of releases with their new approach to price rises really burned me, on top of the game just not being worth playing. Perhaps if I still found the game enjoyable, had it not been absolutely wrecked by the 7th edition ruleset and GW's business decisions, I might tolerate the higher prices in very small doses, but as is? Not a bloody chance; there isn't a single new kit since 6th I'd even consider buying, and most of the ones since 5th don't appeal to me either on aesthetic, price and interest grounds.

 Azreal13 wrote:
There's a world of difference between catching the customer's eye and exchanging a greeting (simultaneously breaking the ice, communication wise, and letting them know you know they're there - useful from a security point of view and also encourages them to hang around if you're busy, rather than them feeling ignored and walk out) and jumping on them the moment they walk through the door.

Not doing the former or doing the latter would get you a bollocking from me if you were on any sales team I managed.

I'm not sure which one you're saying GW do, but in my experience it's definitely the latter.

Having said that I remember a few years ago now, my grandad took me to London and we went in the store down Oxford Street, and I saw one of the staff building one of the plastic stegadon and the manager let me buy one a week early because we'd traveled fairly far. So their customer service generally is pretty good, it's just as soon as you go in nowadays there's someone talking to you about what you're looking for and they always try and get you to buy more. It's almost impressive how they manage it seeing as they're all one man stores now...

 Asherian Command wrote:
i think they should at least think about decreasing cost and relying less on older methods of making miniatures. Transfer from casts to actual digital 3d printing machines, which can be more personalized and better created and allow for more personalization.

IOW, add a few zeroes to the price of each model. 3d printing is not a viable option for GW.

As someone who studies 3d modelling. I can tell you over the long term if you simply make it not by hand but by machine you are going to have far more detail from a computer than from a cast.*

And as someone who studies 3d modeling I can tell you that this is just laughably wrong. A 3d model can have more detail on the screen, but once you translate that into a physical object there's absolutely no difference between digital and traditional sculpting. And you certainly aren't getting better detail out of a 3d printed model than an injection molded or cast resin model, at least not from any 3d printing method that would be anywhere near the price of a current GW model.


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 prowla wrote:
I'd love to see what GW actually COULD do with cheap models, say, €1 per figure. Given the quality of Dark Vengeance, I'd say the results would be pretty sweet. I'd buy the gak out of "GW budget line".

Probably not very much. GW's models aren't expensive because they're more expensive to design and produce, they're expensive because GW has decided that their business strategy should revolve around selling a small amount of models at a high price to a few dedicated collectors instead of cutting prices and making their money through market share and sales volume. If GW ever released a "cheap" line of models they'd have to deliberately make them suck so they don't damage sales of their "core" lines, if they made the "cheap" models as nice as possible they'd be the exact same models as we have now with a smaller price tag.

 Riquende wrote:
Stop playing GW games, and magically you stop caring about the prices too.

That's the easiest solution by far, or using non-GW mini's for GW games if you must.

Verviedi wrote:
Cut prices 40%.

That's about what I get to as well. It'd likely then price them below a lot of competition and all them to use economies of scale to compete properly.

I've wanted to buy the Hobbit Goblin Town box since launch, and kept putting it back on the shelf until I got it at 40% off. £45 for a plastic starter set is much more appealing than £75. That's more than I paid for the 40K starter boxes when I started, but their costs have gone down and inflation has happened.

The 40% just about works in all cases too; it makes the marine characters £10.8 in plastic, instead of £18, which is expensive but tolerable. I'd generally not pay more than about £6/7 for a 28mm character regardless of material, unless it was something particularly special. I'd pay more for resin than metal, and more for metal than plastic, and I've bought resin mini's for less than £11 each.

 Anfauglir wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
On the online store everything is just 20% off.

Except, just like all the other so-called "discount" online wargaming stockists, their stuff comes with an additional VAT cost. So, that ~£12 box of Skeleton Warriors looks pretty good vs GW ~£15 box, right? Well, you actually pay ~£14. Your discount is £1.03, less than 10%. This is the same with Wayland and all the other sites advertising "20-25%" off.

I've never seen that. In the UK, unless it's aimed at the trade, prices are almost always VAT included (GW's retail prices are VAT included). There may be a VAT breakdown on the bill, or a shipping charge, but the discount will still be available (usually 10%). Granted, you might need to spend £50-100 to get free shipping, but at GW prices that's barely anything. It's different in the US where local taxes are required, but the same would apply to GW direct, so the discounter will still provide a discount if you're buying enough to offset the shipping.

When asking about fair prices for product, you should check what the recasters ask of you. Mould-Making isn't cheap, however you do it and the cost of artists to design the miniatures should be negligible for a company selling across the world, so whatever the recasters are asking is about fair game. You could also look to similar sized historical model kits for comparisson.

Long story short, instead of 25€, a box of basic troops should be around 15€ maximum. Tanks may be as expensive as 30€, the really big ones maybe up to 60 or so. A single infantry model should under no circumstances be more than 5-6 €. Everything above that is just GW charging you extra for their name.

I've seen the GW Knight kits for as cheap as 35 $, ffs. Says it all.

I agree with the previous comment. GW doesn't do any advertisement or market research and their products do not see any reliable sort of QA or even playtesting. If a recaster is able to produce at a very similar quality at a significantally lower price, then the current prices are a joke.

In our opinion, the old LotR tabletop (LotR SBG) boxes were fairly priced. You know, before GW increased the price by almost 200%. Iirc, the boxes had e.g. 24 Warriors of Minas Tirith for...ugh..someone help me out here...20€? 24€?

We all complain about prices but yet most of us still pay them haha! Im still buying models and complain all the time hahahahaha!

40KNobz11 wrote:
We all complain about prices but yet most of us still pay them haha! Im still buying models and complain all the time hahahahaha!

Less and less people are buying them, which is why GW's sales are declining. I think it's a 50/50 split roughly between price and the rules.

Reminds me of Steam sales and game developers. They have been reporting that even though they are taking significant cuts in pricing they are still making a lot of money on the sheer number of people buying the games at the discounted price.

40KNobz11 wrote:
We all complain about prices but yet most of us still pay them haha! Im still buying models and complain all the time hahahahaha!

If people wanna pay the prices, then fair play to them.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
i think they should at least think about decreasing cost and relying less on older methods of making miniatures. Transfer from casts to actual digital 3d printing machines, which can be more personalized and better created and allow for more personalization.

IOW, add a few zeroes to the price of each model. 3d printing is not a viable option for GW.

As someone who studies 3d modelling. I can tell you over the long term if you simply make it not by hand but by machine you are going to have far more detail from a computer than from a cast.*

And as someone who studies 3d modeling I can tell you that this is just laughably wrong. A 3d model can have more detail on the screen, but once you translate that into a physical object there's absolutely no difference between digital and traditional sculpting. And you certainly aren't getting better detail out of a 3d printed model than an injection molded or cast resin model, at least not from any 3d printing method that would be anywhere near the price of a current GW model.

Considering how inexpensive it is now to actually get a 3d Printer. Just having a few could be more viable than the current casting system that they use.

3d Printers and the materials they use are the same it just wont be done by hand.

They use it for tons of other companies. Hasbro and several other companies do it as well. They don't simply rely on the injection molds they use a variety to spice it up a bit.


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 Vash108 wrote:
Reminds me of Steam sales and game developers. They have been reporting that even though they are taking significant cuts in pricing they are still making a lot of money on the sheer number of people buying the games at the discounted price.

true. Considering how much money you make just by putting your game on steam is incredible.

40KNobz11 wrote:
We all complain about prices but yet most of us still pay them haha! Im still buying models and complain all the time hahahahaha!

Not sure why you complan about them if you still buy them anyway. Makes the complaining pretty pointless.

 Sigvatr wrote:

40KNobz11 wrote:
We all complain about prices but yet most of us still pay them haha! Im still buying models and complain all the time hahahahaha!

Not sure why you complan about them if you still buy them anyway. Makes the complaining pretty pointless.

Its not that hard to find superior products that cost less than GW Anvil Industry and several other studios produce models at more agreeable prices and even have sales.

Sales in general are quite good for business and great models to have .

40KNobz11 wrote:
We all complain about prices but yet most of us still pay them haha! Im still buying models and complain all the time hahahahaha!

Not me. Haven't bought anything from GW in three years.

And from their last report, it looks like I'm not alone.

That's true. This means that GW had at least half an once of sense before they decided to sell to a bunch of millionaires

I almost started a Dark Elf army, Dark Elves were my first Warhammer army back in the day so I have a nostalgic affection for them. I worked out an army for Lion Rampant using Dark Elves as substitute medieval troops. I've just built a Hussite force from scratch for this rule set that cost me about £60 (42 28mm metal models from 1st Corps).

£35 for 10 plastic Witch Elves soon put an end to that project. Those prices are comedy bad.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

40KNobz11 wrote:
We all complain about prices but yet most of us still pay them haha! Im still buying models and complain all the time hahahahaha!

Not sure why you complan about them if you still buy them anyway. Makes the complaining pretty pointless.

Its not that hard to find superior products that cost less than GW Anvil Industry and several other studios produce models at more agreeable prices and even have sales.

Sales in general are quite good for business and great models to have .

Certainly. My point is that if you buy products nevertheless, then all your complaining is void. You bought it, and that's everything any company cares for.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
There's a world of difference between catching the customer's eye and exchanging a greeting (simultaneously breaking the ice, communication wise, and letting them know you know they're there - useful from a security point of view and also encourages them to hang around if you're busy, rather than them feeling ignored and walk out) and jumping on them the moment they walk through the door.

Not doing the former or doing the latter would get you a bollocking from me if you were on any sales team I managed.

I'm not sure which one you're saying GW do, but in my experience it's definitely the latter.

Having said that I remember a few years ago now, my grandad took me to London and we went in the store down Oxford Street, and I saw one of the staff building one of the plastic stegadon and the manager let me buy one a week early because we'd traveled fairly far. So their customer service generally is pretty good, it's just as soon as you go in nowadays there's someone talking to you about what you're looking for and they always try and get you to buy more. It's almost impressive how they manage it seeing as they're all one man stores now...

I'm not generalising either way, just responding to the assertion that it was somehow "customer service" to jump on someone the moment they set foot in store, and making the point that there is a right and a wrong way of doing it, and that as someone with experience running teams of retail salespeople I definitely have strong views on how my staff should approach that initial contact.

Personally I don't find GW staff too bad, but being a bit of a sales ninja myself, and GW only offering fairly basic sales training (judging by the techniques I've seen employed) I tend to be more amused than annoyed when they try and sell at me.

I don't understand why people continue to pay the full prices when there are places online/in store that sell for up to 25% off RRP. I understand not everybody has the luxury of purchasing from there but if enough people stop paying full RRP eventually something may come of it...

That's already happened - a substantial part of the range is Direct Only!

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

40KNobz11 wrote:
We all complain about prices but yet most of us still pay them haha! Im still buying models and complain all the time hahahahaha!

Not sure why you complan about them if you still buy them anyway. Makes the complaining pretty pointless.

Its not that hard to find superior products that cost less than GW Anvil Industry and several other studios produce models at more agreeable prices and even have sales.

Sales in general are quite good for business and great models to have .

Certainly. My point is that if you buy products nevertheless, then all your complaining is void. You bought it, and that's everything any company cares for.

It is because people are hoping that GW does something about those prices before those people reach the point where they stop buying.

Your comment is along the lines of 'why are people bailing if the boat is gonna sink anyway?' - and has much the same answer: Because they don't want the boat to sink.

Meanwhile Cap'n Kirby of the HMS GW is steerin' straight towards the iceberg, because navigation is otiose in the Arctic.

People want to continue buying GW products, but can see the writing on the wall that their days of making purchases at the prices that GW is charging is fast approaching an end.

And for more and more people those days are already long past.

At this point... I do not see myself buying from GW any longer, even if they did drop their prices by 60% - my interest in supporting them has reached negative levels.

The Auld Grump

 Peregrine wrote:


Probably not very much. GW's models aren't expensive because they're more expensive to design and produce, they're expensive because GW has decided that their business strategy should revolve around selling a small amount of models at a high price to a few dedicated collectors instead of cutting prices and making their money through market share and sales volume.

You are correct, of course, in that it's GW's own decision to make expensive collectibles. For GW to sell cheaper kits, they'd have to change their whole business model and actually sell 'miniature wargames' rather than cater for collectors. Although I'm still wondering from where did they pull the whole 'collectible model' thing - haven't they always been a game company, and their main audience still is wargamers who actually want to play games with the models?

 Kosake wrote:
When asking about fair prices for product, you should check what the recasters ask of you. Mould-Making isn't cheap, however you do it and the cost of artists to design the miniatures should be negligible for a company selling across the world, so whatever the recasters are asking is about fair game. You could also look to similar sized historical model kits for comparisson.

Long story short, instead of 25€, a box of basic troops should be around 15€ maximum. Tanks may be as expensive as 30€, the really big ones maybe up to 60 or so. A single infantry model should under no circumstances be more than 5-6 €. Everything above that is just GW charging you extra for their name.

Warlord's Bolt Action in 28mm is pretty good comparison point. Their cheapest plastic infantry boxes they have are around €30 for 30 models (prices from large UK webstore), and tanks are between 20-30 euros. I think King Tiger is the biggest tank they produce - one of the biggest tanks in WW2 - which is £26 on WLG's webstore, so maybe around €32 at a larger internet retailer.

Quickly comparing BA to GW: Cadian troops are about €56 for 30 models, compared to €30 for 30 German Infantry, Predator tank is €37 compared to €21 for a PzIV, and Land Raider is €47 compared to €29 for a Tiger I. I'm not even going to compare the elites and HQ's

-

 Bottle wrote:
If you buy at the rate you paint, the prices aren't too bad at all. To me a 2000 point army in 40k or WHFB is a goal to work towards. Not something you'd be purchasing at once.

This is kind of fallacious. Either the price is too high for the item in question, or it isn't, deferring the cost may make the purchase easier to manage, but has no bearing on if the price asked is disproportionate or not.