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Okay. You're looking for an army that traditionally has at least a few good CC elements and some way of going quickly into your opponent's deployment zone?

How much mobility do you need once you get there? Do you want an army that traditionally penalizes you for running a gunline so you don't even have the temptation? How aversed to casualties are you?

 Ailaros wrote:
Okay. You're looking for an army that traditionally has at least a few good CC elements and some way of going quickly into your opponent's deployment zone?

How much mobility do you need once you get there? Do you want an army that traditionally penalizes you for running a gunline so you don't even have the temptation? How aversed to casualties are you?

First - I am exactly looking for something like that - mostly CC, can quickly appear in Opponent's Deployment Zone and doesn't have to include any "powerful" gunlining from 36th or 48th inch elements.

Second - I could use at least moderate mobility (this is why I hestitate about GK), I just don't have temptation about gunlining anyway, never-ever, so I guess I wouldn't feel that penalty. About casualities - I am more a person who likes to add character to each of his painting models, even generic troops, and I just don't find myself playing gargantuan HORDES of wimpy enemies and sweep 8+ models every turn, or either play something that will sink down like a porcelain while being shot at (this is why I hesitate a bit about DE..). But, of course, sometimes SOME casualities are necessary..

Alright. A few more:

Good guys or bad guys? Foot or mech? Silly or serious?

 Ailaros wrote:
Alright. A few more:

Good guys or bad guys? Foot or mech? Silly or serious?

Either will do - but perfect would be something in between. Imagine Garret or generic Bounty Hunter from SW - fights for his cause and sometimes gets to save the world when no one better is around. Let's say it that way - if good, then more like Batman than Superman, and if evil, then more like Jango Fett rather than Darth Sidious xD

I'd prefer more foot than mech

Serious for sure, I am not that into Trolltastic Orks as I mainly like 40k for its grimdark lore.

Okay, one last thing to clarify, is deepstriking enough mobility? As in, you throw guys in with a drop pod, for example, but then they move at the speed of foot after? Or do you want there to be some ability to scoot around once they land?

It seems like you could go either way on this, so if you could clarify, that would be great.

 Ailaros wrote:
Okay, one last thing to clarify, is deepstriking enough mobility? As in, you throw guys in with a drop pod, for example, but then they move at the speed of foot after? Or do you want there to be some ability to scoot around once they land?

It seems like you could go either way on this, so if you could clarify, that would be great.

I'd like to have A LITTLE more mobility than just Drop Pod and termies Deep Strike. I've already tried to play Steel Rain on Sternguards and Tacticals - it was damn fun, I must admit, but it was lacking some speed and mobility when everything landed down and I was forced to footslog with all the forces to another enemy tank / due to scatter.

Dark Eldar are mostly mech though.

morgoth wrote:
Dark Eldar are mostly mech though.

I know, this is why I hesitate about DE as well a bit. - but THIS kind of Mech army is at least better than SM or IG Mech-focused lists (because DEldar's vechicles and Reavers look awesome and are truly blinding fast, in contrast to clunky Bikers, Rhinos or Chimeras...)

Yeah Mech is fast to me, I play Eldar Mech.

And I find the lumbering Imperial Mech a pitiful excuse for mech tbh.

The day that tanks move and shoot slower than infantry is not close at hand.

morgoth wrote:
Yeah Mech is fast to me, I play Eldar Mech.

And I find the lumbering Imperial Mech a pitiful excuse for mech tbh...

True to that, this is why I couldn't even try going with either IG on Vets or SM Razorspam/Bike army never, ever xD

And about Eldar Mech - I also thought a little bit about them (mainly because frequently I was vassal to my friend who plays them, on Saim-Hann), but oh gosh, number of old or finecast minis is too damn high, as well as most of their fluff isn't my cup of tea (well, maybe besides Iyanden - these guys ring my bell a bit).

I tell this to anyone getting into any tabletop wargame.

Choose the army with the most aesthetically pleasing models and fluff to you.

A miniature game requires a bit of devotion and a lot of time. You will be building, painting, and playing with your army for a decent amount of time (and if it is something that you truly love, decades).


If you don't care too much about the models and just want the style of play (close combat/quarters) that is much easier, you want to play Daemons of Chaos. Daemons are the only true CC army left. 75% of the army is dedicated to CC, and even the shooty units perform in a CC or utility role for the army. Almost everything in the army moves 12" a turn, most ignores movement penalties, and most have fleet. There are many threads on Dakka and the Daemon dedicated forums for alternate models that can be used to collect on the cheap and attain different looks/aesthetics and to avoid paying for the models that are incredibly expensive (greater daemons, fleshhounds, fiends, and beasts of nurgle)

Sorry, but Daemons are completely off the topic for me, as I don't find either their fluff, models or even rules (what a hell with this WARP STORM?!) appealing AT ALL :(


About fluff, as I said before - I really enjoyed books like Garro, Xenos, Deliverance Lost (this is why I got an idea about those Raven Guards few posts back), or recently finished Path of the Seer (best 3$ I've ever spent on a book - great read, even though Tolkien made me spitefully hate most of the Elven Races). From computer games - well, Dark Eldar/Eldar/SM in DoW1, CSM in DoW2.. I didin't enjoy Space Marine game at all for example, don't know why to be honest

If I would need to point my favourite Space Marine Legion, it would be Raven's Guard (Guerilla warfare, stealthy tactics, not-so-maniac Primarch and rather Close Encounter approach), character - Garro or Kelamith, favourite unit minis - new Vanguard Vets (dem bitz) or GKSS (dem bitz again), favourite character model - Eldar Spiritseer (I bought and painted one just for pleasure and to put it on my model's shelf), and most-appealing vechicle - Razorwing Jetfighter ( come on, it is basically a Batwing variation xD).

Veskern wrote:
most-appealing vechicle - Razorwing Jetfighter ( come on, it is basically a Batwing variation xD).

Ah Dark Eldar as Batman themed conversions!

A couple Robin costumes here and there, Harlequins as the joker... it is all coming together!


I mean, if someone can field "Hello Kitty" space marines, you can field what you want!
Still like to explore the idea of Dark Eldar with a bat type theme, problem is those dudes are not the bulky buff types but THINK of grotesques as Bane.
Scary stuff.

Lol, this one looks particulary awesome xD



But still I'd just preffer to stay on 40k mythos and so on, possibly without homebrewing Chapters, Kabals, Craftworlds and else

But you get my concept of preffered fighting tactic and combat approach, I basically grew on Batman comics, mixed with good old games like Thief, Tenchu or sneaky character in Morrowind - and this is the closest that I want to get with my 40k army choosing. I thought for example, during playing CSM, about Night Lords (because these guys are pretty close fluffwise), but both Codex Rules, rather slow pace of an army and close to zero possibilities to make models (I mean, offical NL heads are ugly and old...) makes this rather unfun chore to make.

Something CC based, requiring thought and actual tactics, with at least moderate pace. Dark Eldar/Eldar/Space Marines with CT? As you already showed me that GK are no good option because they are rather slow combat force. And, besides Daemons, Blood Angels are off the topic, because of their fluff - i am just not that into Space Cherub Vampires..

Keep an eye on the rumoured Harlequins codex.
CC, fluffy, fairly fast, and should work well with DE.

 Skinnereal wrote:
Keep an eye on the rumoured Harlequins codex.
CC, fluffy, fairly fast, and should work well with DE.

I know, but still, I really believe that Harlequins will be more like Inquisition Codex - addition to another army instead of something standalone. Either way, I love their models (despite they are old), and I'll find place for them next to my main army somewhere for sure

If a new Solitare is included and he's anything like the old Solitare. I suspect he will be a mainstay in all Eldar armies.

Veskern wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Keep an eye on the rumoured Harlequins codex.
CC, fluffy, fairly fast, and should work well with DE.

I know, but still, I really believe that Harlequins will be more like Inquisition Codex - addition to another army instead of something standalone. Either way, I love their models (despite they are old), and I'll find place for them next to my main army somewhere for sure

The Harlequins models aren't old at all. At least compared to the rest of the Eldar range.

morgoth wrote:
The Harlequins models aren't old at all. At least compared to the rest of the Eldar range.

Still, they are no-multipart-Failcast 6 models from 4th ed (I guess..?). But as I said - despite this fact I damn like these models, because they are pretty, sclupt is great, poses are very dynamic, and their masks look perfect.

Veskern wrote: my taste in army that requiers actual tactics instead of rolling all the time, very CC Focused army, fits my taste in "stealthy" characteristics and playstyle (as Raven's Guard are basically Guerilla), and got sweet looking models that are hyping me quite well (especially Vanguard ones, with amazing weapons).

Veskern wrote:First - I am exactly looking for something like that - mostly CC, can quickly appear in Opponent's Deployment Zone and doesn't have to include any "powerful" gunlining from 36th or 48th inch elements.

Second - I could use at least moderate mobility (this is why I hestitate about GK), I just don't have temptation about gunlining anyway, never-ever, so I guess I wouldn't feel that penalty. About casualities - I am more a person who likes to add character to each of his painting models, even generic troops, and I just don't find myself playing gargantuan HORDES of wimpy enemies and sweep 8+ models every turn, or either play something that will sink down like a porcelain while being shot at (this is why I hesitate a bit about DE..). But, of course, sometimes SOME casualities are necessary..

Veskern wrote:Either will do - but perfect would be something in between. Imagine Garret or generic Bounty Hunter from SW - fights for his cause and sometimes gets to save the world when no one better is around. Let's say it that way - if good, then more like Batman than Superman, and if evil, then more like Jango Fett rather than Darth Sidious xD

I'd prefer more foot than mech

Serious for sure, I am not that into Trolltastic Orks as I mainly like 40k for its grimdark lore.

Veskern wrote:
Sorry, but Daemons are completely off the topic for me, as I don't find either their fluff, models or even rules (what a hell with this WARP STORM?!) appealing AT ALL :(

Okay, so, we can break it down from here.

We can start by axing damons, because you said you just don't like them. It's also a rather random army. We can also knock out orks and SW, because they're silly armies (SW would otherwise match your profile, though). Then we can knock out tau, because MSM is fake tactics and the rest of the army only gunlines. Then we can knock out eldar because, with a brief exception near the beginning of 5th ed, eldar has been a mech army, not a foot army. This is especially bad when they have closed-top transports which, these days, basically prevents you from using them to assault.

Then we can knock out stormtroopers and knights, because they don't have what you want at all, and are too small to grow into, which was sort of the point in the first place. We knock out guard because they have a checkered history of close combat and decent tactics, but it's always been slow. We can cross of inquisition for much the same reasons. And we can axe necron, who are decently fast, and have some CC, but they have like two good CC units in an army that's otherwise designed for durability and shooting. Necron have never been a CC army, and I can't imagine that changing anytime soon.

So, what does that leave us with? SM, BA, DA, DE, GK, CSM, and tyranid. Let's see..

Tyranid are probably not going to be the best, because they do have some choppiness, but it comes on either hordes or super monstrous creatures, and they have drop pods, but nothing really fast otherwise. Flying hive tyrants and the like will work VERY well for your main goal, but that's just a handful of units. You don't want to have to ignore the rest of the codex just for that narrow of a build you like.

Then I'd axe DA. They do have ravenwing, which is fast, but the rest of the codex is geared towards the bolter banner and split-firing terminators. In any case, they're not the choppiest of the SM choices on the plate.

Then I'd take out BA for sort of the same reason. BA has a stronger CC profile, and for a decent stretch of 5th, they were a very good CC army. And they're very fast, what with their vehicles being fast. But... Apart from one crazy dreadnought, death company and being able to take bolter+CCW instead of boltgun marines as troops, it's all rather thin. BA have traditionally been a shooty army, not a choppy one (remember old death company rules?) You might want to come back and reconsider these if having a short-range firefight army with CC elements would count, because BA will do this pretty well,

While we're at it, let's knock out regular SM. They are, at heart, a shooty army. They can do a lot of what you're looking for, like a bike list or a drop pod list or a land raider rush list, but more or less so can GK, and they're just better at close combat.

So that's DE, GK, and CSM. I guess from here it just matters what you want more.

CSM: Compared to the other two, this army's biggest problem is mobility. They can take bikes, but not as troops, and they don't have access to either a fast transport or drop pods. They do mitigate this somewhat in a few ways. They have three HQ choices that can grant infiltration, which means you can outflank or just move pieces up the board. I used to run a special character named Huron in a khorne list, which made 40 berzerkers start the game in range of a turn 2 charge. They also have a few fast, beaty HQ choices like a juggerlord or a flying demon prince. Plus, they have several units that can deepstrike, including terminators of course, but also two kinds of jump troops and two more kinds of terminator-esque infantry.

As for their strengths, it's CC, all the way. GK are also good for this, but CSM are insane. With the exception of havocs (who you can still dedicate to khorne and give a powerfist to), I can't think of a single unit that's just outright bad in close combat. Furthermore, everything starts with a marine statline, but has the option to take +1A or +1I, and anything with a mark of khorne can take a banner that lets them reroll charge ranges. These kind of mark and icon abilities are pretty much army-wide as well. Then on top of this, they have versions of regular SM stuff buffed exclusively for close combat. They have jump marines (who can take marks, etc.), but then they also have super jump marines that are the same, but with fear, a 5++ and lightning claws. They have an expensive version of terminators that come with two close combat weapons that you get to choose before you attack what they do - be it a pair of powerfists this turn or a pair of lightning claws the next.

You can still run bikes and jump troops en masse, but not as troops, and you have cheaper land raiders. If you can use these things to get around the mobility problem, then CSM is going to be the choppiest option.

Dark Eldar: The main dark eldar weakness is that they're not primarily a close combat army. Yes, you can easily build one, no problems, but for every squad of wyches and beasts, there's a squad of warriors and ravagers. Traditionally, they've been a very fast CC army, but that was when they had webway portals that actually worked correctly, unlike now. As a result, most people run them as more or less a mech gunline - a fleet of open top transports that they zip up into just barely in range, and if anything comes after them, they scoot away. It also doesn't help that their best units are shooty. That and everything is very flimsy. They fight more like a horde army where you shove a huge pile of stuff forward and then attack with whatever's left alive when you get there.

They are very fast, though. Nobody can deny that. Also, because everything falls apart with nothing more than a stern glower, you are forced to play more carefully with them, which means more tactics. That and they can run CC, and there's never been a time when they couldn't. And with that cheapness in quality is matched by a cheapness in price, which means you can spam the hell out of wyches in venoms. While they are like a horde army, they're like a horde army that actually works. Stuff will actually make it to the other side of the board and get to do things, unlike power blobs or footdar or green tide these days.

Play this army if you want to emphasize the fast tactics over hitting like a sledgehammer. DE are more like a faster, choppier version of imperial guard. That are evil.

Grey Knights: This army is sort of the balancing point between the two others. No, they don't have DE mobility, lacking fast transports or open top, and, like CSM, missing drop pods. Unlike CSM, though, they do have shunting, which is HUGE. Either you get your army into your opponent's deployment zone on turn 1, or you act a little more patiently, but can then press the "you can't get away from me" button later in the game. They also get interceptors, which are the best jump troop infantry outside of crisis suits.

Meanwhile, like CSM, they have a huge load of choppy options. The everybody gets as many power weapons as they want to carry thing they do is very nice, and they also have access through inquisitorial stuff to death cult assassin and warrior blobs. The only problem here, relative to CSM, is that their stuff is a lot more expensive, which means you just don't get enough of it. Having limited resources does engender more tactical play, but running out of stuff by turn 3 doesn't.

So you get a slightly faster, though slightly less hard hitting version of CSM, and a slower but much more elite and hard hitting version of DE. That and they get the ally chart of the IoM. My only beef with this, though, is that more than even regular SM, their units are all the same, but unlike regular SM, have a lot less diversity of them. This does sort of limit the amount of space you can grow into this army, as every army is sort of a recombination of the same few units. GK is a new army, though, so that might expand with time.

Anyways, I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any other questions.

First off, I want to thank you for great help all the time. It is very pleasant to have such support and helping hand in your person


And, getting back to topic, I'd like to ask you about your answer and additional options which I've found during last two days, or possibilities I've opened into.

About CSM - I already thought about them, even read their codex and rules, but the problem is.. I already played this army so much on previous dex that I am really not that into getting back to them. Plus the fact that it is highly reccomended these days to field these with Heldrake, which is one of my least favourite models in Wh40k at all - it is basically Fantasyhammer 40k, and, despite this unit being tough as balls, I don't feel like wishing to buy, assemble, paint and play that one. Sure, my best memories lie with Kharn+ Zerkers in a Land Raider, but still I think that a bit too much has changed in this army. Plus the fact that I would just like to try something different, and perhaps even change a bit my expectations

Second, about Dark Eldars - thank the Dark Gods that you told me so much about them, and made it best word of warning, because either philosophy of IG are not like my expectations, nor a gunline army - sure, one Raider or two filled with Warriors seem nice, but not making an army mostly focused on doing things like that. And of course I am rather opposed to Horde Tactics, throwing countless units at my oponent and fighting with what's left. Shame because all of my attitude was focused on how much CC'y this army was in 5th edition, but I guess these days are over :(


GK - they seem as the best option from these, but :


Recently I remembered about old gem of a book that I've found in a book thrift shop in my city ( Deliverance Lost ) and connected the dots with Generic SM Codex and Raven Guard tactica. I really enjoyed these guys, mostly because they meet most of my expectations about Space Marine Chapter/Legion, are fighting rather in Close Encounter, preffer personal and quiet approach to enemy, and got rather unique taste. Would you think it would make sense if I would create an army around that, even changing my expectations about 99% CC and blindingly fast, and make it moderate fast and 50-75% CC? For example fielding some of the Tactical Marines on foot, with Missle Launchers or Meltas to come up close to the enemy gunline or transports (thanks to RG Tactics), field few squads of Tacticals in Drop Pods, and filling the rest with either Assault or Vanguard Squads, armed to the teeth and either jumping from DS or arriving from Infiltrate? I would even put some stationary elements, like one or two Preds or one TFC. As long as most of the army stays mobile and can arrive quickly behind enemy lines - I'll be fine.


Or maybe you'll more approve second option that I recalled :

How about generic Eldar, as I already was vassal to my friend, found them somehow interesting (I mean, fluffwise only Iyanden seem good to me) ? They are not horde tactics, this army is fast and can prove useful in CC and in fire support from the back. For example, bringing Fast army on both types of bikes, some Walkers/Prisms on the back, one or two Serpents filled with Avengers, and as a main crunch, for example, Wraithguards/Blades led by Spiritseer with ++ save on them, ready to charge and soak some bullets. Or even field Wraithknight to stomp some puny units down low. But I guess this option is worse because I've got rather little sense nor option to arrive in enemy deployment zone in turn one, and rather shoot him to bits and charge on what is left - except of course fielding Warp Spiders, which are very good "sneaky" bastards as well.



So, what do you think about either of those? Do they have sense, or is it best to stay with GK?

There is such a thing as "analysis paralysis".

Just pick the basic army structure / type / look that acts as the "doll" or core of how your army looks.

Then just pick a colour scheme you like or create a story of why they look like they do.
I like red wing blackbirds so I could paint raven guard as a variant with black armour, red shoulder pads with a yellow trim.
Heck, look-up some japanese symbols and lean toward "ninja marines" who prefer using various blades in the dark...
Add cool accents like for Raven Guard, any marines without jump packs, make sure they have chord or rope, an auspix, extra ammo, pouches, bandolier... the ready for anything types they are.
Pay REALLY good attention to their scouts, they are their "core" force, give them extra targeting equipment, binoculars, these are the the guys who will call in the strike or drop pod on-target.

Grey Knights rather than a bright silver and gold look, try a worn and incredibly old look: brass and a dark iron (more brown than blue).
Accent with really dark reds with purple washes in the recesses.

There is lots to play with here, give it thought, you need to put the fun in more than GW.

Cool idea - and thanks for your input and advice as well of course

Most probably I am going off with Raven Guards on semi-fluffy-semi-competetive style, to both have fun and play them my way, as well as being able to win, using right Tactics.

First shopping - I guess best would be a single Tactical Squad (for 500pts games - 2x 5 will be fine I guess), a single Vanguard Squad (both as beautiful models and bitz as well as conversion for Shrike/Captain), and two boxes of Assault Marines (5 with Flamer and maybe a PW should do okay). Will it do good or you got better ideas ?

Wouldn't it be better to use codex BA for those. All units stay the same, only you get stock +1Str on the charge and +1I if you play the formation, and why wouldn't you it lets you take 6 elite units. Your tacs could be armed with heavy flamers which seem to work realy nice for drop pod or razorback units. Although I maybe biased here, as I play IG. BA assault marines are also better then normal marine ones as they can take 2 plasmaguns or meltaguns in 5 man squads, and normal assault marines can only take flamers or overcosted plasmapistols.

Hate to say but that is how 7th edition is played: pick codex for play style, but ok to pick different army look to play.
<edit>I play black Templar and keep looking at BA codex to play them "properly".

 Talizvar wrote:
Hate to say but that is how 7th edition is played: pick codex for play style, but ok to pick different army look to play.
<edit>I play black Templar and keep looking at BA codex to play them "properly".

What? Sorry, but I've litterally never heard that. I've heard of liking SW color scheme/fluff and playing them as BA because you like the playstyle, but I've never heard of it being to play them "properly".

I wish you would buy my army. You are so luck y to have such disposable income to have bought and played so many armies. I started with CSM 6 years ago and signed a blood pact to only use them. I have fought in so many unfair battles and lost but each small victory renewed my devotion to the chaos gods and my determination. However now with all the ridiculousness of 7th ed (6 ed was worse) I can't see myself playing wh40k anymore.

Oh and did anyone mention Imperial knights for a close combat army? Those thing get into f2f and stomp everything dead!

 Talizvar wrote:
Hate to say but that is how 7th edition is played: pick codex for play style, but ok to pick different army look to play.
<edit>I play black Templar and keep looking at BA codex to play them "properly".

This mentality in even 6th edition made me dislike playing the game for a while - for example why trying Blood Angels - despite their power and rules, I just couldn't even look on Codex cover without a bit of disgust, because I didin't like them. Never. From the looks (Blonde Cherubs) throught their Lore, to their rules. Not my cup of tea, never, ever.
Beseides, I don't think that Raven Guard and SM Codex overall are "bad" or "uncompetetive". This is one of the best dexes now, with lots of solid, powerful units, access to all the good toys, and quite versatile. And RG Tactics is not a bad one, actually one of the better, especially for Mech Assault or Rhino Wall.

And Filch - but now CSM is not bad codex at all - for sure not as bad as it was in 5th ed. And, unlike previous dex, now CSM provide LOTS of different approaches to combat, with few quite powerful units. You want to play Word Bearers, with Cultists and Dark Apostles? Here you go! You want to play Death Guard Warband, with Plague Marines assisted by ZOMBIE? You are free to do it. You want to make proper use of your good, old Doomrider? Lord on a Bike, with Mark of Slaanesh and MURDER Sword. Thanks to this versatility (and Heldrake..) this Army is now best since 3.5

Sounds like you've made up your mind not to make up your mind.

Your not gonna get any better advice than what already has been provided.

 Byte wrote:
Sounds like you've made up your mind not to make up your mind.

Your not gonna get any better advice than what already has been provided.

What do you mean ? I just did few posts ago - Raven Guard Space Marines, as both combination of fluff/rules/models/playstyle which appeals to me, especially as I can take numerous CC elements for them and keep them mobile