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The Prime did not change at all, with the exception of points increase. His stats, special rules, and options are all the same as 5th ed.

Alcibiades wrote:
Isn't the cost increased because he is a force multiplier for his squad, and therefore you are paying for +1 WS and +1 BS for many units?

For one unit. Warriors.

Alcibiades wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
He increases the squad's ranged damage output by IIRC 33%, which means that if you have 9 warriors that's an increase in damage output equivalent to 3 more warriors. assuming they all have deathspitters. Which is 120 points, right?

It's 105pts. So, he's not even good value on that front.

The other problem there is that their guns aren't very useful to begin with. 30pts for 3 S5 AP5 shots at 18" is not good value. Even with BS4. It's like telling a IG player that veterans are taken for those BS4 lasguns.

Similarly, you're assuming a max sized squad, which makes the value even more dubious. I mean, assuming no upgrades other than Deathspitters, that squad is costing 440pts (more likely 460+ unless you want to completely waste the Prime's statline by not giving him any melee stuff). And, what are you getting? 30 S5 AP5 shots at 18". So, *if* you somehow get the entire squad into range (bearing in mind that you're forced to footslot), then you're paying 440pts to gun down 4-5 marines per turn. Still sound like good value?

As a comparison, for 456pts I can have:
- 9 Kabalite Warriors with a Haemonculus in a Raider with Splinter Racks and a Dark Lance
- 5 Warriors with a Blaster in a Venom with an extra splinter cannon
- 5 Warriors with a Blaster in a Venom with an extra splinter cannon

So, that's a Dark Lance and 24 poison shots at 36"
2 Blasters at 18"
8 poison shots plus 9 TL poison shots at 24", or 16 poison shots and 19 TL poison shots at 12"

Plus, of course, I have 3 different units each with dedicated transports - so I can potentially shoot 6 different targets (as well as holding multiple objectives, splitting my forces etc.). Those warriors are stuck in a single block and have to use all their firepower against a single target.

 vipoid wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Isn't the cost increased because he is a force multiplier for his squad, and therefore you are paying for +1 WS and +1 BS for many units?

For one unit. Warriors.

Alcibiades wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
He increases the squad's ranged damage output by IIRC 33%, which means that if you have 9 warriors that's an increase in damage output equivalent to 3 more warriors. assuming they all have deathspitters. Which is 120 points, right?

It's 105pts. So, he's not even good value on that front.

The other problem there is that their guns aren't very useful to begin with. 30pts for 3 S5 AP5 shots at 18" is not good value. Even with BS4. It's like telling a IG player that veterans are taken for those BS4 lasguns.

Similarly, you're assuming a max sized squad, which makes the value even more dubious. I mean, assuming no upgrades other than Deathspitters, that squad is costing 440pts (more likely 460+ unless you want to completely waste the Prime's statline by not giving him any melee stuff). And, what are you getting? 30 S5 AP5 shots at 18". So, *if* you somehow get the entire squad into range (bearing in mind that you're forced to footslot), then you're paying 440pts to gun down 4-5 marines per turn. Still sound like good value?

As a comparison, for 456pts I can have:
- 9 Kabalite Warriors with a Haemonculus in a Raider with Splinter Racks and a Dark Lance
- 5 Warriors with a Blaster in a Venom with an extra splinter cannon
- 5 Warriors with a Blaster in a Venom with an extra splinter cannon

So, that's a Dark Lance and 24 poison shots at 36"
2 Blasters at 18"
8 poison shots plus 9 TL poison shots at 24", or 16 poison shots and 19 TL poison shots at 12"

Plus, of course, I have 3 different units each with dedicated transports - so I can potentially shoot 6 different targets (as well as holding multiple objectives, splitting my forces etc.). Those warriors are stuck in a single block and have to use all their firepower against a single target.

I'm not taking a position on whether he's good or not, I don't play Nids. I think that the designers probably did price him around his force multiplier ability calculated for a max size squad.

A second of math tells me that if you have a squad of 9 warriors and add a Prime, all with deathspitters, the unit's damage output against MEQ goes from 3 unsaved wounds to 4.44, and so an increase of almost 50%.. How does that work out pointswise?

Now if his special rules said the squad can use his strength and toughness, then I'd be sold

Alcibiades wrote:

I'm not taking a position on whether he's good or not, I don't play Nids. I think that the designers probably did price him around his force multiplier ability calculated for a max size squad.

I agree, that was probably taken into account in his cost.

However, he had that exact same ability in 5th and it didn't change or improve in 6th. So, where did the 50% price increase come from in 6th?

 vipoid wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

I'm not taking a position on whether he's good or not, I don't play Nids. I think that the designers probably did price him around his force multiplier ability calculated for a max size squad.

I agree, that was probably taken into account in his cost.

However, he had that exact same ability in 5th and it didn't change or improve in 6th. So, where did the 50% price increase come from in 6th?

Good question. Maybe an oversight in 5th, or a change in how they decided to calculate pricing (min-sized units vs. max, for instance)?

Come on, if the designers based points cost on the buff given to a maximum squad size, then for imperials, AM priests, Inquisitors and and ATSKNF or fearless IC would be costed far far more because they all can buff a 50man squad plus characters.
Why would they base it on maximum squad size? Also it is flawed due to the fact that if you do base it on that, for every model you lose, his value decreases.

Alcibiades wrote:

Good question. Maybe an oversight in 5th, or a change in how they decided to calculate pricing (min-sized units vs. max, for instance)?

Considering that the Prime was functional in 5th, but not in 6th, it seems like 6th is the more likely oversight.

I'd say the Prime will be best buddies with Sergeant Stonetooth Harker

 Sir Arun wrote:
I'd say the Prime will be best buddies with Sergeant Stonetooth Harker

In that they can hang out together on shelves?

 vipoid wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
I'd say the Prime will be best buddies with Sergeant Stonetooth Harker

In that they can hang out together on shelves?

and talk about the glory days of their previous incarnations.


I did find a tactica that can make a Prime work though (unlike Harker who has literally zero good uses): have it lead a 9 man Tyranid Warrior mini deathstar with a barbed strangler, and death spitters on everyone and 3 lash whips&boneswords on 3 of them, and flesh hooks on everyone - have them emerge from a hole a Trygon burrowed and lay waste to the enemy deployment zone in games of about 2000 points and more. It's a 416 point unit with WS 6 and BS4, churning out 24 S5 shots and a large blast upon emerging, and then charging with 36 attacks at I4 through cover, of which 12 are at AP3 and hit pretty much everyone on a 3+, so thats 24 hits, 8 of them AP3.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Come on, if the designers based points cost on the buff given to a maximum squad size, then for imperials, AM priests, Inquisitors and and ATSKNF or fearless IC would be costed far far more because they all can buff a 50man squad plus characters.
Why would they base it on maximum squad size? Also it is flawed due to the fact that if you do base it on that, for every model you lose, his value decreases.

I don't remember who it was, a Russian Ork player who posts frequently on this forum, the guy with the owl avatar. Anyway he showed convincingly IMO using the magic of math that the point cost for the priest is actually factored into the cost for Guard power weapons. So it shows up indirectly.

Alcibiades wrote:
I don't remember who it was, a Russian Ork player who posts frequently on this forum, the guy with the owl avatar. Anyway he showed convincingly IMO using the magic of math that the point cost for the priest is actually factored into the cost for Guard power weapons. So it shows up indirectly.

If that's true, then it's a really idiotic way of doing it.

It means that any IG squad without a priest is overpaying for power weapons (and, presumably, any squad without power weapons is underpaying for priests).

 vipoid wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
I don't remember who it was, a Russian Ork player who posts frequently on this forum, the guy with the owl avatar. Anyway he showed convincingly IMO using the magic of math that the point cost for the priest is actually factored into the cost for Guard power weapons. So it shows up indirectly.

If that's true, then it's a really idiotic way of doing it.

It means that any IG squad without a priest is overpaying for power weapons (and, presumably, any squad without power weapons is underpaying for priests).

Maybe he'll show up himself, but IIRC it was something like a platoon commander with a power weapon with a priest who gets war hymns off will statistically beat a space marine sergeant with a power weapon. Or something like that.

Alcibiades wrote:
Isn't the cost increased because he is a force multiplier for his squad, and therefore you are paying for +1 WS and +1 BS for many units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
He increases the squad's ranged damage output by IIRC 33%, which means that if you have 9 warriors that's an increase in damage output equivalent to 3 more warriors. assuming they all have deathspitters. Which is 120 points, right?

Your math is way, WAY off.
1 more BS will result in 16% more hits. Let's go with Spitters.
No Prime: 27 shots, 14 hit, 10 wound.
Prime: 27 shots, 18 hit, 12 wound. (Ignoring the Primes gun here since we're only discussing the force multiplier)
4 more hits and 2 more wounds isn't 120 points. And 3 with Spitters is 105 anyway.

Oh, and he did the exact same thing in the last codex.

Alcibiades wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Come on, if the designers based points cost on the buff given to a maximum squad size, then for imperials, AM priests, Inquisitors and and ATSKNF or fearless IC would be costed far far more because they all can buff a 50man squad plus characters.
Why would they base it on maximum squad size? Also it is flawed due to the fact that if you do base it on that, for every model you lose, his value decreases.

I don't remember who it was, a Russian Ork player who posts frequently on this forum, the guy with the owl avatar. Anyway he showed convincingly IMO using the magic of math that the point cost for the priest is actually factored into the cost for Guard power weapons. So it shows up indirectly.

It was a thread about overcosted power weapons for ig iirc.

rigeld2 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Isn't the cost increased because he is a force multiplier for his squad, and therefore you are paying for +1 WS and +1 BS for many units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
He increases the squad's ranged damage output by IIRC 33%, which means that if you have 9 warriors that's an increase in damage output equivalent to 3 more warriors. assuming they all have deathspitters. Which is 120 points, right?

Your math is way, WAY off.
1 more BS will result in 16% more hits. Let's go with Spitters.
No Prime: 27 shots, 14 hit, 10 wound.
Prime: 27 shots, 18 hit, 12 wound. (Ignoring the Primes gun here since we're only discussing the force multiplier)
4 more hits and 2 more wounds isn't 120 points. And 3 with Spitters is 105 anyway.

Oh, and he did the exact same thing in the last codex.

Hmm, you're right, my math was off (or rather the mathhammer40k website's math was off).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Come on, if the designers based points cost on the buff given to a maximum squad size, then for imperials, AM priests, Inquisitors and and ATSKNF or fearless IC would be costed far far more because they all can buff a 50man squad plus characters.
Why would they base it on maximum squad size? Also it is flawed due to the fact that if you do base it on that, for every model you lose, his value decreases.

I don't remember who it was, a Russian Ork player who posts frequently on this forum, the guy with the owl avatar. Anyway he showed convincingly IMO using the magic of math that the point cost for the priest is actually factored into the cost for Guard power weapons. So it shows up indirectly.

It was a thread about overcosted power weapons for ig iirc.

That's right. What was your reasoning again?

Alcibiades wrote:

That's right. What was your reasoning again?

I was showing that ig power weapons are as effective as sm power weapons when it comes to platoons with priests and that they'd actually be underpriced if they cost lower for platoons.

the cost of the prime isn't because he's a force multiplier.

Last codex the prime was actually good, maybe even a little too good for his cost. I think someone at the studio hated getting their tac marine army stomped by primes so primes go up 50% in cost for no obvious reason. complete conjecture, but its what I got.

Well, it's kind of an interesting mental exercise to try to figure out what the designers were thinking. They're not actually complete simpletons and are using some logic.

What changed after 5th that they thought required a points increase? Maybe it's the introduction of the challenge mechanic, which he as one of the few Tyranid characters can use?

Alcibiades wrote:
They're not actually complete simpletons and are using some logic.

*looks at Maleceptor's rules.*
Yes they are and no they don't.

 Tyran wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
They're not actually complete simpletons and are using some logic.

*looks at Maleceptor's rules.*
Yes they are and no they don't.

I have found a decent use for the prime, but with one important caveat...

He is still too expensive.

But... if you are going to commit to a sea of claws type army list (think endless swarm), then a prime bouncing from squad to squad is the single most survivable source of synapse.

Rending claws and adrenal glands work fine. Break off a squad if it's charging to be a tarpit or stay in if it's time to kill.

For a laugh, I do want to try out dropping him and five warriors in a Nidsack.

__Synn

Alcibiades wrote:
. They're not actually complete simpletons and are using some logic.

Uh, no, they're not. The designers have said repeatedly that there is no logical system for points costs. It's whatever "feels right" to them during testing.


Seriously. They frelled up with the Prime. There is pretty much no other reasonable answer for it.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
I'd say the Prime will be best buddies with Sergeant Stonetooth Harker

In that they can hang out together on shelves?

and talk about the glory days of their previous incarnations.


I did find a tactica that can make a Prime work though (unlike Harker who has literally zero good uses): have it lead a 9 man Tyranid Warrior mini deathstar with a barbed strangler, and death spitters on everyone and 3 lash whips&boneswords on 3 of them, and flesh hooks on everyone - have them emerge from a hole a Trygon burrowed and lay waste to the enemy deployment zone in games of about 2000 points and more. It's a 416 point unit with WS 6 and BS4, churning out 24 S5 shots and a large blast upon emerging, and then charging with 36 attacks at I4 through cover, of which 12 are at AP3 and hit pretty much everyone on a 3+, so thats 24 hits, 8 of them AP3.

Honestly, if you want something that can do this, you are going to be way better off with a unit of Shrikes with Rending Claws and one or two with LW/BS than going all out on Warriors with a Prime. You can even have the Barbed Strangler if you want it. The Shrike unit can start on the board, moves 12" a turn, costs less, and does basically the same thing. They have a worse save, but that is almost completely mitigated by starting them in cover in Malanthrope/Venomthrope range for a 2+ shrouded cover save. Seriously, Shrikes are so much better than Warriors. The only downside is, you know, no official model (although they aren't too hard to kit bash with all the super-cheap Warrior sprues from Deathstorm floating around ebay these days. Just picked up a set myself for some Shrikes!).

Edit: the above set up, including the Prime (but with no wargear on the Prime) costs a minimum of 526 points. Plus a Trygon (which ain't so good itself).

Though these days lose the Wormey, and add a Pod. and it becomes almost a good thing. If you are fighting a Gunline, where the foe clumps up... But you are still paying too much for the Prime...

A pod full of Warriors can do almost the same job, for fewer points.

 Happyjew wrote:
The Prime did not change at all, with the exception of points increase. His stats, special rules, and options are all the same as 5th ed.

Not quite. He can't join units of MC's anymore (I used to run him with Dakkafexes sometimes) and his options are nerfed (Bonesword nerfed, Lashwhip nerfed, Scything Talons nerfed).
He gained the option of joining a unit in a pod.

And the pants-on-head stupid point increase.

Been thinking of ways to make a TP work in my lists too and thought about making him a quasi-backfield Synapse bucket of pain.

Sticking him with the Miasma Cannon in a Firestorm Redoubt with some Tyranid Warriors with Devourers, pumping out some good dakka at BS4

Get some Barricades for the Firestorm Redoubt and stick an Exocrine behind one and a unit of Biovores behind the other.