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 Haight wrote:
So please answer me this. Very nice receipt btw.


Why would the OP, in his first post, say that you asked him to pay the deposit by gift ?

Likely to avoid paying the fee paypal charges in other forms of payment.


Look, the guy has responded and has promised action. Let's all back off and let him make reparation to the OP, demonstrating in relatively quick time that he's making progress with painting and/or simply refunding the OP. If he comes through, we all celebrate, his honor remains in tact and we might even suggest him in the future as a potential option for people looking for a painting service.

Of course if he fails to make good on these promises... then we shall have at it...

James at Siege studios:

It is extremely poor form to reveal identifying information about someone else, i.e. first and last name. This should be removed from the post. You have actually violated your client's privacy by posting even his first name and then to post his surname? Poor form and extremely unethical.

Further, your posts appear to be written with a strong sarcastic tone, i.e. using "buddy" when you're attempting to undermine another person's post. Sarcasm is completely inappropriate for business correspondence, and since you are posting as a representative of Siege studios, you might want to consider using using business appropriate language.

I hope that others who may consider using this service will see what is on display here...



Edit - to be more clear

 Gymnogyps wrote:
James at Siege studios:

It is extremely poor form to reveal identifying information about someone else, i.e. first and last name. This should be removed from the post.

Agreed!

I'll be watching this with interest, hope OP gets what he paid for.

 SiegestudiosUk wrote:

 Haight wrote:
So please answer me this. Very nice receipt btw.


Why would the OP, in his first post, say that you asked him to pay the deposit by gift ?

Cuz ya know, when you pay by gift, makes it VERY hard to recoup from paypal if there's a dispute, right. In fact, i'm pretty sure it's a big no-no to claim something is a gift when it's not ?

And if this is not true, why woudl carl (again, in his first post.... i can quote it for you, seeing as you almost assuredly haven't read it...) claim that you requested this, but he declined because it felt off ?


Your little jpeg there doesn't actually address any of that.



You are patently ignoring the fact that the client is claiming that you asked him to do this, but HE, not YOU, but HE declined because it felt off.



I will insert a jpeg of a caramel here, as it is equally arbitrary and proves just as much as your receipt.

Have you considered that maybe just maybe Carl made a mistake saying he paid as a gift, nothing against Carl at all in my comment but people do make mistakes, and my proof that the paymnt was paid by invoice and NOT as a gift as you seem adamant on even though you have a section of text that was typed that maybe, just maybe was miss typed.

Please do not lecture me on how PayPal works, I do know how it works buddy, hence why we don't ask for payments as gifts in a business transaction, it would invalidate the security of the payment and the whole process.

The receipt, shows, proves and verify that the payment was NEVER a gift as you are claiming.

Again your argument it beyond invalid and my "nice little receipt" as you put it, completely proves that your simply slandering and trying to "troll" for an arguments sake.

I have zero to hide and my honesty is all I need to prove how foolish you are making yourself look.

Thanks any way for a very entertaining evening, im glad that at least one of us is being honest.

Kindest regards

James
Siege Studios Limited

www.siegestudios.co.uk

Why would he be "mistaken" about you asking him to pay as a gift ? That makes zero sense. Absolutely none.

Your posting of the receipt proves that he paid a deposit ; not that you did not ask him to pay via gift. The fact that he paid a deposit was never in question, not by me or anyone else. Again, straw man arguments are digging your hole deeper. His original post (which, again, please go read it if you have not already) states very clearly that a James from Siege asked him to pay the deposit in the form of a gift, but that he declined to pay the deposit as a gift as it seemed "off". You have proven he paid a deposit, which there is and never was any doubt about. What is in doubt is if you requested it as a gift or not, which you still have yet to give a straight answer to. So, thusly, once more into the breach!


So again i'll pose the questions:


1) Question 1 (there's a macro question here, and then a few subquestions): Did you ask Carl to pay as a gift ?


If yes, why would you do this as a business ?

If yes, what was your response when Carl declined. Who made the counter offer that it was okay for payment to not be made in the form of a gift - Carl or yourself, or another agent of Siege's or Carls ?


If your answer is no, then there are two possibilities : Either Carl was mistaken, and if so i'd curious as to how he'd be "mistaken". How does one mistake one being asked to pay for something as a gift and then mistake declining what one was asked to do ? How precisely does one do that? Honest question.


The other "no" answer is you're insinuating he's lying.

I suppose there's other possibilities, but i'm genuinely curious on this item.

Which one is it ? Yes you asked Carl to pay as gift. No you didn't, he's mistaken.... if so how does one make that mistake, and then be mistaken about it feeling "off" too? No you didn't, he's lying.



2) Were you the direct copy on the emails that Carl sent ? Were you cc'd ?

3) Was the artist or any other agent of Siege's the direct copy on the emails that Carl sent? Was the artist cc'd ?

4) Were none of you direct or cc'd, and if so, then to whom in your organization was Carl sending emails ?

4A) If to someone in your organization, as Director, why were you not aware and at what point where you made aware ? Was it before or after the separate business owner contacted you on behalf of Carl as mentioned in the OP ?

4B) As director of your organization why were you not aware that a client had no verifiable progress from October to January (october is when the Banshees were posted, right ?) and a client that had paid in August ?

5) Is 3 months a normal expectation for no progress on a commission with your painting service of this size ? Is this typical, is this what clients should expect ? Is asking for more progress in a shorter time frame "time wasting communication" ? (some of those may seem sarcastic, they are not meant as such).




Finally, you should probably redact Carl's last name and repost the pic.

I will also make you a deal: we can cut out the vitriol and have a civil discussion. I'm game if you are ?

As a laurel branch after my first paragraph i tried to keep the questions without vitriol.

The community (your potential customer base) probably would like to know as well.

The salt and odd answers alone makes this whole thing seem shifty. I hope he replies soon.

Yeah, I'd be really annoyed with any business posting my receipts on a forum. Just don't do it.

If I ever go into business doing anything and screw up, I'll always address the customer privately, explain myself and do the right thing according to the situation. As soon as you come here and start defending yourself, you lose credibility.

A happy customer would have come here and defended you much better. It's so simple.

@SiegestudiosUK

Whether you're right or wrong, this is kinda why you don't engage people on a public forum as a business. Nothing good will come out of this continued back and forth. Any mistakes you make in your posts, any (mis)interpreted tone to the message, will just add fuel to the fire. Deal with your customer directly, let him post his completed army in the thread and any positive/negative comments, and move on.

Alright, so I was at work, and I checked on this thread and saw it had gone to Hell real quick. Now I understand why that guy grabbed popcorn earlier... :p

I asked James to stop posting in this thread and he's respected that request. As some others have pointed out, I don't think it was helping anything and it was just going to get a lot worse. I'll address a couple of things that were brought up:

As you all can see from the invoice that was posted, the initial payment took place quite a while ago (July 2014). I still have all the original e-mails saved and the conversation pretty much went like this (I'm not going to post the exact e-mails, it's really not necessary):

***

Me: Alright, everything looks good. Please send me a Paypal invoice and I"ll get you paid.

James: Great! I'm out right now, and I can't send an invoice on my phone, the paypal app is rubbish so I"ll have to send the invoice tomorrow! And please pay it as a gift, I'd appreciate it.

Me: Not a problem, but I don't feel comfortable sending funds via Paypal as a gift, seeing as this is the first time we've worked together. Please let me know if that's a problem.

James: Not a problem at all buddy, I completely understand and it's fine! I'll send you the invoice tomorrow.

***

Honestly, I didn't think anything of the above. It's not like he tried to pressure me into it, and out of about 6 total commission artists I've worked with over the years (including terrain designers), 4 of them have asked me to send the money as a gift (and I've told them all no). I think James probably forgot about this cause it was so long ago, and from my understanding, he doesn't request this anymore.

Way I look at it is like this: Did Siege Studios screw up? Yeah, they did, and they've owned up to it. And part of it is my fault. I let things go for a few months without following because of my wife's injury and the baby. Now the question is: what are they going to do about it? If he lives up to his word (And I believe he will), they'll finish my commission for essentially half-price, which is a *huge* discount and more than enough to make things right in my book. Compared to a lot of other threads here with similar situations, I don't think I've ever seen such a generous resolution offered.

My promise is I'll keep this thread updated and post photos of the work as it gets done. To everyone who has showed support, thank you, I appreciate it, I really do. I've lurked here for probably 6+ years, and the community is wonderful - people really look out for each other. Makes me wish I was a bit more active in my posting :p The next step is to wait and see what happens, but I'm much more optimistic now and hopefully we'll have a happy ending to this thread.

Optimates wrote:

I e-mail them. No response after about 4 days. E-mail them again. No response. E-mail them again. No response. Message them on facebook (https://www.facebook.com/siegestudios) - no response. E-mail their affiliaites (JMD Scenery). The wonderful owner there says he'll call James and e-mails me back about an hour later saying he spoke to James and that James promised to contact me ASAP. No contact follows. E-mail them yet again. No response.

 Thairne wrote:
Question...
Why didn't you inform your client on what was happening? As it looks like you played dead until the issue became public..?

Not trying to be venomous here, but this is, imo, the core that can make or break the case.

You know, James, this is the "suppostition" I based my "assumptions" on. I feel not the slightest need to feel embarrased by what I wrote.
The OP claimed you didn't reply several times. No reaction for months for the client, and you claim to know what was going on.
Why didn't you inform him? That is a legitimate question and not "slanderous accusations".

No contact and information for the client whatsoever. He posts on a popular forum which might cause a lot of negative PR. You show up and rectify the errors of your company.
That is fact, as documented in this thread.

You could have simply explained what was leading to this, but instead you choose to report a post, contact the administrators, basically call me a liar in an aggressive tone and then wonder why people don't simple shut up and praise you for finally doing what you were paid for?
Yeah.
A simple "the customer was in direct contact with the artists" would have absolved you of quite a part of the blame. Poor organisation on your part (if a painter goes awol, don't you check what he was working at? No control what so ever?), but no malicious intent.
Now you just dug your grave even deeper.

*scratches head*

Maybe it's the "BTP effect", but it seems people wanted an excuse to go witch-hunt. I think the reactions to James' posts are a wee bit exaggerated. Someone "dun goofed" and someone stepped in to fix it.

Anyway, Optimates, I'm happy the situation is being fixed and I too would be thankful if you keep sharing the project's progress with us.

Don't think so.
Everyone was cautiously optimistic once James replied, and when I asked my question I was accused of making up stuff in a very unfriendly manner.
That got him the negative will.

I mean, just look at what he leveled at me:

 SiegestudiosUk wrote:

... for the sake of your own embarasment please base them on FACTS not assumptions....

... any slanderous accusations, comments or statements based on non factual opinions, will be reported...

and he continues to rant on about reporting to the administrators etc.
Nope, he shot himself in the foot without anyone else aiming the gun.

This is a great example of why companies shouldn't get involved in discussions on forums. I'm sure James is an honest person, but he let himself be dragged into an antagonistic discussion where he was on the defense, irritated and frankly not showing his best side, because of what he probably percieved as unwarranted attacks on him and his company. The best thing to do would have been to make a single post with a statement saying we made a mistake, we're doing this and this to make amends... and then let the work speak for itself and leave any further dicussion to the client if he wishes.

Optimates wrote:

***

Me: Alright, everything looks good. Please send me a Paypal invoice and I"ll get you paid.

James: Great! I'm out right now, and I can't send an invoice on my phone, the paypal app is rubbish so I"ll have to send the invoice tomorrow! And please pay it as a gift, I'd appreciate it.

Me: Not a problem, but I don't feel comfortable sending funds via Paypal as a gift, seeing as this is the first time we've worked together. Please let me know if that's a problem.

James: Not a problem at all buddy, I completely understand and it's fine! I'll send you the invoice tomorrow.

***

Thank you for clearing that up. The community appreciates it very much.

I have zero need to editorialize further on this point.


I'm curious as to why James would say your mistaken, but i doubt we'll hear from him again.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
*scratches head*

Maybe it's the "BTP effect", but it seems people wanted an excuse to go witch-hunt. I think the reactions to James' posts are a wee bit exaggerated. Someone "dun goofed" and someone stepped in to fix it.

Anyway, Optimates, I'm happy the situation is being fixed and I too would be thankful if you keep sharing the project's progress with us.

It's not a witch hunt, and BTP isn't the first company to abuse the Contractor / Sub-Contractor / Client relationship in the commission painting arena. It's just one of the most public ones. It got so much publicity due to 1) Tenebre making a series of nice videos about it, and 2) the sheer scale of it was incredible.

If you do a little research, it's a bit like the wild west out there. A lot of guys are above the board, but some are not (like most service based things... i even run into it in the construction project management world from time to time). It's very hard to get honest reviews and referrals, especially when it's almost all web based, and you have no word of mouth to go on that is independantly verifiable (testimonials on websites don't count...)

So if we don't react like this when a fellow community member posts something like this, and we don't ask tough questions, and get the company's that DO act poorly into the google searches, how will the next guy looking for a service avoid exactly this situation ?


Let's remember here that the crux of the situation is NOT Siege is being "attacked" (which they are not, i may be asking some hard questions, but i'm not attacking them. I simply am trying to get to the bottom of how they operate and what happened).

It's that this guy paid In august. Got one update one unit in October, and radio silence until January. He's out some money, he's out minis.

He sent a plethora of emails. No response.

He got a response after he contacted a second business owner with some kind of affiliation.

He was then promised the completion of project, some sort of discount, and further discount on further commissions.

However ONLY after it was brought to a very public and large pool of potential customers (i.e. Dakka)

There then became questions as to WHO asked for gift payment (which in the business world is SHADY, period. Despite all the strawmen thrown my way, paying as a gift makes it extremely hard to recoup funds via paypal. Someone who "knows paypal so well" should know this. Anyone knows that if you use the gift option to avoid fees when you pay someone for something you are taking a huge risk, as it makes it much harder to recoup. It's not worth avoiding the fees.).

There then opened a sub-question as to if this was a mistaken point, which apparently its not. But he claims he was.

I asked if he or any of Siege Studios agents were direct copied or cc'd on the emails. No response.

I also asked if He was aware of what was going on with and at his company in relation to this client, and not just the solution once it was brought to Dakka. Once again, no response.

Finally i asked if this is a typical expectation when dealing with Siege Studios miniature painting service. To get one update after 2 months on one unit, and then radio silence despite lots of (by his own words; "time wasting communication". Nice!) requests for 3 more months until a second business owner was involved.



Not one of those questions was answered with anything other strawmen, some mild backhanded comments (to my admitted snark, yeah i get like that. It's okay, i have thick skin i can take it back i actually found his comments humerous), and some ex post facto ninja editing (yeah he went back and took out his first few claims that i was embarrassing myself, etc, etc, in an effort to make his first retort to me look better).

No answers. No responsibility taking other than "i offered a discount, client is happy, that's all". No, actually that's not all, as at that time we hadn't heard from Carl. While i'm sure Siege Studios wishes otherwise, when you bring something like this to Dakka, it's going to get a response. There's no putting the wizard back behind the curtain. We now have heard from Carl, and we'll take a wait and see approach.


Also witch hunt is a touch strong ! Heh...

A witch hunt: an intensive effort to discover and expose disloyalty, subversion, dishonesty, or the like, usually based on slight, doubtful, or irrelevant evidence. That last part is the crux.
These are legit things that we should want other Dakkanauts to know. Lots of people come here as part of their commission research. This isn't a witch hunt. But yeah, BTP has raised the level of visibility for these things.


At the end of the day Carl will get his models (or we'll hear about it more in this thread), and people can make their own minds up about Siege Studios, a miniature painting service. Caveat Emptor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Optimates wrote:


My promise is I'll keep this thread updated and post photos of the work as it gets done. To everyone who has showed support, thank you, I appreciate it, I really do. I've lurked here for probably 6+ years, and the community is wonderful - people really look out for each other. Makes me wish I was a bit more active in my posting :p The next step is to wait and see what happens, but I'm much more optimistic now and hopefully we'll have a happy ending to this thread.

Thanks, Optimates. Honestly the goal is to make sure you get what you paid for and your minis, and make sure Dakkanauts doing research into painting studios are informed. Keeping this thread updated will either show that James is a man of his word, or not.

Hopefully he is.




Edit: spelling and formatting. I can do neither without morning coffee.

There then became questions as to WHO asked for gift payment (which in the business world is SHADY, period. Despite all the strawmen thrown my way, paying as a gift makes it extremely hard to recoup funds via paypal. Someone who "knows paypal so well" should know this. Anyone knows that if you use the gift option to avoid fees when you pay someone for something you are taking a huge risk, as it makes it much harder to recoup. It's not worth avoiding the fees.).

If I'm not mistaken, paying as a gift could also cause other problems. Not only does it make it hard/impossible for you to get your money back in case you do get scammed, but if the amount is large enough it could look suspicious to PayPal and they could put a hold on your account. Commission painting is pretty expensive, it's not hard to get into four digit territory (or higher in tenebre's case) from what I've seen, and it might look shady if you're sending people such large amounts of money as "gifts". That would suck for both parties.

You're right that people like using PayPal because it's mostly safe and secure, but it seems like you don't realize that clients lose all that security when they mark payments as "gifts". It saves you a few bucks on fees, sure, but it completely feths over the customer when things go to gak, like they almost did here. In the future it would probably be better to never ask a client to send payment as a gift, and to instead charge them a little bit extra to make up for the fee (and maybe explain to them that the charge is to cover PayPal fees)...or just eat the damn fee, either one.

I will say, in all fairness to James and Siege Studios, the reason why he hasn't responded to some of the questions raised is because I specifically requested he not respond to this thread any further. I could tell it just wasn't going to go anywhere good. He's a small business owner trying to get his business off the ground, and I can understand why he'd get defensive, so I Just thought it best if he got some distance from things. I'm at work, so have to be brief, but I'm just waiting now to see what happens next and I'l llet everyone know how it goes.

Optimates wrote:
I will say, in all fairness to James and Siege Studios, the reason why he hasn't responded to some of the questions raised is because I specifically requested he not respond to this thread any further. I could tell it just wasn't going to go anywhere good. He's a small business owner trying to get his business off the ground, and I can understand why he'd get defensive, so I Just thought it best if he got some distance from things. I'm at work, so have to be brief, but I'm just waiting now to see what happens next and I'l llet everyone know how it goes.

No i know, Optimates. I'm glad he respected your wishes and is focusing on doing right by you ; that's the focus.

Though honest, not caustic answers to the questions would go a long way to figuring out just where it went wrong. Hell he might glean some info and improve his business processes by doing so. Would also set future clients at ease. But meh, if he chooses not to respond, that is his prerogative. I can understand not wanting to engage further at this point. He's probably no fan of mine and worried i'll bait him with my trolling yes and no inquiries into the finer parts of what clearly went off the rails.


Again focus is making sure you get made whole, and the community can at that point draw it's own conclusions. If both of those things happen ; mission accomplished.


Gonna sit back and subscribe to this thread. It'll be interesting to see the progress and updates - if it's not too much of a pain in the ass, can you post whatever and however often you get them ?

 Haight wrote:

Optimates wrote:
I will say, in all fairness to James and Siege Studios, the reason why he hasn't responded to some of the questions raised is because I specifically requested he not respond to this thread any further. I could tell it just wasn't going to go anywhere good. He's a small business owner trying to get his business off the ground, and I can understand why he'd get defensive, so I Just thought it best if he got some distance from things. I'm at work, so have to be brief, but I'm just waiting now to see what happens next and I'l llet everyone know how it goes.

No i know, Optimates. I'm glad he respected your wishes and is focusing on doing right by you ; that's the focus.

Though honest, not caustic answers to the questions would go a long way to figuring out just where it went wrong. Hell he might glean some info and improve his business processes by doing so. Would also set future clients at ease. But meh, if he chooses not to respond, that is his prerogative. I can understand not wanting to engage further at this point. He's probably no fan of mine and worried i'll bait him with my trolling yes and no inquiries into the finer parts of what clearly went off the rails.


Again focus is making sure you get made whole, and the community can at that point draw it's own conclusions. If both of those things happen ; mission accomplished.


Gonna sit back and subscribe to this thread. It'll be interesting to see the progress and updates - if it's not too much of a pain in the ass, can you post whatever and however often you get them ?

Oh, I guarantee I'll keep this thread updated, I promise. It always drives me nuts when people make threads like this and then just disappear without any sort of resolution. I can definitely post whatever gets sent my way, however often. Commission services really are like the wild west and I think its important people get to see what the outcome is, so like you said, they can come to their own conclusions. I don't have the time to paint myself anymore, so I rely on these services a lot, and I know reading these forums has spared from making a mistake a few times. Hopefully (And I think they will) Siege will come through and show they mean business.

Just wanted to update the thread to say there's been no updates thus far. :p

Optimates wrote:
Just wanted to update the thread to say there's been no updates thus far. :p

Thanks for letting us know ; has there been further communication and / or were you promised a timeline (i.e. - you'll have an update in 3 weeks, etc) ?


Strange. All sorts of WIP updates on his twitterfeed ! 11 hours ago an update on a WIP Guard project, then on the 6th a WIP Farsight army, Uriel, Angron, and ultramarine captain.

I've came to a conclusion with this:

James is a complete fething nutjob. He should be arrested for breaching data protection. Dont think ill be using this guy...

Not only that, but his studio is unreliable at best.
Another studio people should be wary about, if not just outright ignore.

Edit: redacted out some reactionary bits after some thought and commentary from the community. Fair points are fair.


Optimates, I've sent you a series of PM's. I'd like to keep that discussion there, but please read them and if possible, respond. Thanks. You still have options. Note I sent the PM's out of respect to BOTH parties - Carl, and Mr. Otero rather than posting here publically.




EDIT:
Also, anyone posting in this thread, kindly put "Siege Studios a miniature painting service" into your post somewhere (make sure your post has something relevant to avoid requests for locking). This will help bring this thread up in the "siege studios" google searches.

Once again, the point is that 1) If they do good by Carl, people will see its a company worth trusting. 2) If they don't, well, that's a message too.

That does sound a little "witchhunty" Haight.....We don't have a clear idea of resolution yet and you kinda seem to be going out of your way to grief this guy.

I'm not saying hes a good service or not...but lets find out what happens first?

While true, how many "slack" do we have to cut him?
Considering the history, I do not feel that more time will remedy the issue.
It is the same behavior the studio exhibited in the very first place - so he had his 2nd chance and failed to take it so far.

At some point one has to deduce if using this service is worth the risk - fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

If he mans up and works up positive PR we will give Siege Studios, a miniature painting service, credit; if he does not, well, we better warn anyone else from endangering triple, maybe even quadruple digit amounts of money might just disappear.

Last update I had was an e-mail from him on Jan. 29th. No definitive timeline was given, but he said he would start getting images ASAP to me and also gave some well-wishes for the wife. Don't know if he's gotta fit me into his schedule (looks like he's working on some big projects right now) or what the deal is, but hopefully he comes through.

Multiple people ITT have already sparked torches, it would seem.

It is rather unfortunate what has happened, but Haight, Thairne, and Da Stormlord seem to be peddling panic, rather than letting the situation develop.

Mayhaps some folks should follow James' example and back out of the thread for awhile until we hear more from Optimates.

 rayphoton wrote:
That does sound a little "witchhunty" Haight.....We don't have a clear idea of resolution yet and you kinda seem to be going out of your way to grief this guy.

I'm not saying hes a good service or not...but lets find out what happens first?

No, just PM'd a couple ideas to Optimates. Nothing witch hunty about it. I just chose to keep that convo there. Actually more out of respect for both Mr. Otero in a continued hope that he's making good on Carl, and Carl's privacy too (which is also a concern here, which has already been violated once, and then redacted, thankfully). Optimates does have options. It's his choice if he wants to exercise them or not. *shrug*. Optimates can decide 2 weeks with no contact is enough, or give him another 6 months, 6 years, or never. It's up to him.



As to the "siege studios, a miniature painting service", its not the first time i've requested that either. PR, good or bad, is PR. People look to places like B-town and Dakka for research on this sorta thing. Good bad or indifferent, the treatment of this client will be a correct expectation of what to expect if something goes wrong with Siege.


And i will, merrily, merrily say good on Mr. Otero if he sends Optimates a whole boatload of pics of works in progress tomorrow, and Optimates comes on here and says "Got a ton of updates, everything looks great! James is a standup guy!"

The point is to hopefully get Carl back his minis and what he paid for, or his minis and his money.


EDIT: Okay, after an objective re-read, acknowledged, i came off strong in my last one. I'll edit it. I let ego slip in, for sure, especially with my opener. I blame my northern irish blood on that

Those minis in the WIP picture from "Siege Studios a miniature painting service" are pretty cool.


I hope you get what you paid for from "Siege Studios a miniature painting service" Optimates.

Good on you haight. Many kudos for being able to look at previous comments objectively. Alot of people on forums don't seem to be able to do that. Have an exalt

Optimates ...good luck on this. These threads are pretty valuable and good on you for letting us know about them.