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 Envihon wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Envihon wrote:
I have to go with the Avatar of Khaine since Khaine is suppose to be the original and is older than Khorne but at the same time that is a piece of his power instead of the whole thing. Still got to give to Khaine though, I feel like that ancient battle prowess would win against a Bloodthirster.

Khorne is both older and butchered Khaine when he was still a god.

Also, being "ancient" has feth all to do with actual combat prowess. It just means you're old. It doesn't mean you have actual experience.

In the Eldar fluff stuff I have both listened to and read they talk about the relationship of Khaine and Khorne because the Eldar kind of don't mind if they are claimed by Khorne when someone like a Banshee looses themselves to a bloodlust and thus their soul is claimed by Khorne instead of Slaanesh. During these talks, they talk about the relationship between Khaine and Khorne. It is made quite clear that Khaine came before Khorne and it is kind of hinted to that Khorne might be related to Khaine in some way. Khorne didn't dominate Khaine, that was Slaanesh, Khorne came after the struggle to claim Khaine as his property and this struggle caused Khaine to fall into material space where he was shattered into his form now.

Neither! Calgar comes by and Falcon Punches both

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Envihon wrote:
I have to go with the Avatar of Khaine since Khaine is suppose to be the original and is older than Khorne but at the same time that is a piece of his power instead of the whole thing. Still got to give to Khaine though, I feel like that ancient battle prowess would win against a Bloodthirster.

Khorne is both older and butchered Khaine when he was still a god.

Also, being "ancient" has feth all to do with actual combat prowess. It just means you're old. It doesn't mean you have actual experience.

In the Eldar fluff stuff I have both listened to and read they talk about the relationship of Khaine and Khorne because the Eldar kind of don't mind if they are claimed by Khorne when someone like a Banshee looses themselves to a bloodlust and thus their soul is claimed by Khorne instead of Slaanesh. During these talks, they talk about the relationship between Khaine and Khorne. It is made quite clear that Khaine came before Khorne and it is kind of hinted to that Khorne might be related to Khaine in some way. Khorne didn't dominate Khaine, that was Slaanesh, Khorne came after the struggle to claim Khaine as his property and this struggle caused Khaine to fall into material space where he was shattered into his form now.

And the Chaos Gods have always existed. While they originally had birthdates, after their birth, the god has always existed and is older than time, thanks to how the way the warp works. There is no no such thing as a "time before Khorne", no to mention that Eldar Gods are incredibly, incredibly weaker then the Chaos Gods. Mere daemons can do stuff like rip open portals and start entire daemonic invasions, or even blow up stars.

Here's my take on it. In a story featuring the two, there's a 99.9% chance an Imperial is the hero of the story.

Since the Bloodthirster is more likely to be the baddie, the Thirster will off an Avatar to show how awesome it is before Bob Space Marine kills the Bloodthirster to show how awesome HE is.

For a chance, Norton speaks wisdom...

 Envihon wrote:


And you don't think that the Eldar Gods used to act like this? There was also a time before humans became a prevalent species when Khorne was an actual noble god.

I have never seen anything supporting the myth that Khorne once or is "noble". He has always been about blood for the sake of blood.

All the Chaos Gods and the Eldar Gods as well as the Ork Gods or the Gods of any warp connected species are is the projection of the thoughts, emotions and will of the species that believe in them hence the Emperor's plan to make the human species atheistic. If you have people stop believing in them, they loose their power hence also why the Eldar Gods got their asses handed to them when Slaanesh was born, the force of excess and the forgotten values that the Eldar used to have severely weakened their gods as well as strengthening the Chaos Gods thanks to all the negative emotions built up in the Eldar race. Gork and Mork are so strong because of the universal beliefs of the orks.

We don't know if Gork and Mork actually exist. They've never appeared, had direct influence over something, or have daemons. For all we know Gork and Mork may very well just be gestalt vague entities like the Tyranid Hive Mind compared to the Chaos Gods or Eldar Gods.

Every single Chaos God is created and sustained by the emotions and souls of every living being of the material universe which gives the possibility of the fact that if you would stop these things from flowing to a Chaos God, you would be able to destroy it in much the same manner that the Eldar Gods were destroyed during the Fall.

The Chaos Gods are self-sustaining at this point, not to mention it's questionable if you can destroy them given their complete breaking of causality, which the Eldar Gods never demonstrated (and perhaps why they were destroyed).

If the Imperial Truth would of happened, if the Emperor would of succeeded in his plan, such an event would of been possible where the Emperor would of been able to go in and shatter the Chaos Gods like they shatter the Eldar Gods. The Chaos Gods just as the Gods before them are completely dependent on the emotions of mortal warp connected creatures for their power and continued existence hence why they put so much time and effort into corrupting things as much as possible but if they were ever to win is also the reason why this would cause them to destroy themselves.

The Eldar Gods were dependent on the Eldar race themselves- the warp is connected to other universes, and the Chaos Gods are spread throughout all time and space. They aren't anything like the Eldar Gods in function, scope, or power. Not to mention that the Emperor and Astronomicon, that which provides the shear psychic power for the Emperor, is dying and the Emperor's mental strength fading as well.

Also, another point, then how can Nurgle claim to be the oldest and thus claim the title "Grandfather Nurgle"?

Because causality is not respected in the warp. If you've read Lovecraft, you'd be familiar with Eldritch Abominations not respecting any physical laws or even being comprehensible by normal logic. Physics doesn't exist in the warp, it's a soup of liquid thought which formed seperately from the material universe and thus is governed by completely different physical laws (hence why many things dissolve when exposed to warp energy, they literally can't exist). Slaanesh is both newborn yet has always existed. Schrodinger's state of existence, half dead and half alive.

And this is also how Khaine and Khorne can be related (Awfully similar spelling isn't it?) The negative emotions could very well split Khaine into two entities eventually where the negative emotions would feed Khorne while the other more positive emotions of the Eldar fed Khaine which is why the Eldar see them as being related to each other which makes sense given the nature of warp itself and how Khorne could of been more about noble warfare during his first inception but the negative emotions and bloodlust corrupted his being.

Wat

Khaine and Khorne are completely seperate entities. Largely because Khorne was present for Khaine's sundering by Slaanesh.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Fluffwise, an Avatar is way more powerful than a bloodthirster.

An Avatar is a shard of an actual god, a not insignificant chunk either. Bloodthirsters are, for all their power, still just a regular old daemon.

Uh, all aligned Daemons are also fragments of their deific patron. As in, a daemon is a part of their God, except Nurgle ones because he's Special.

So... really, Bloodthirsters are to Khorne what the Avatar is to Khaine... and since Khaine is more an assassin type (murder) than a battlefield type (blood), the Bloodthirster probably would win in an even fight.

Yes, but there are more bloodthirsters than there are Avatars. And Khorne still exists in another location.

That means each Avatar is proportionally a larger chunk of Khaine than any Bloodthirster is of Khorne. All bloodthirsters together likely account for less than 1% of Khorne's total essence. All Avatars together make 100% of Khaine.

This is what has actually happened when the two meet:
-Eldar book: The Avatar wins in a fight that almost kills it, or the Avatar takes the thirster with it.
-Chaos book: The Thirster roflstomps the Avatar.
-Imperial book: The Thirster beats the Avatar, but at least breaks a sweat.
But yeah: The blood thirster is a shard of a God that is many magnitudes more powerful.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Envihon wrote:


And you don't think that the Eldar Gods used to act like this? There was also a time before humans became a prevalent species when Khorne was an actual noble god.

I have never seen anything supporting the myth that Khorne once or is "noble". He has always been about blood for the sake of blood.

All the Chaos Gods and the Eldar Gods as well as the Ork Gods or the Gods of any warp connected species are is the projection of the thoughts, emotions and will of the species that believe in them hence the Emperor's plan to make the human species atheistic. If you have people stop believing in them, they loose their power hence also why the Eldar Gods got their asses handed to them when Slaanesh was born, the force of excess and the forgotten values that the Eldar used to have severely weakened their gods as well as strengthening the Chaos Gods thanks to all the negative emotions built up in the Eldar race. Gork and Mork are so strong because of the universal beliefs of the orks.

We don't know if Gork and Mork actually exist. They've never appeared, had direct influence over something, or have daemons. For all we know Gork and Mork may very well just be gestalt vague entities like the Tyranid Hive Mind compared to the Chaos Gods or Eldar Gods.

Every single Chaos God is created and sustained by the emotions and souls of every living being of the material universe which gives the possibility of the fact that if you would stop these things from flowing to a Chaos God, you would be able to destroy it in much the same manner that the Eldar Gods were destroyed during the Fall.

The Chaos Gods are self-sustaining at this point, not to mention it's questionable if you can destroy them given their complete breaking of causality, which the Eldar Gods never demonstrated (and perhaps why they were destroyed).

If the Imperial Truth would of happened, if the Emperor would of succeeded in his plan, such an event would of been possible where the Emperor would of been able to go in and shatter the Chaos Gods like they shatter the Eldar Gods. The Chaos Gods just as the Gods before them are completely dependent on the emotions of mortal warp connected creatures for their power and continued existence hence why they put so much time and effort into corrupting things as much as possible but if they were ever to win is also the reason why this would cause them to destroy themselves.

The Eldar Gods were dependent on the Eldar race themselves- the warp is connected to other universes, and the Chaos Gods are spread throughout all time and space. They aren't anything like the Eldar Gods in function, scope, or power. Not to mention that the Emperor and Astronomicon, that which provides the shear psychic power for the Emperor, is dying and the Emperor's mental strength fading as well.

Also, another point, then how can Nurgle claim to be the oldest and thus claim the title "Grandfather Nurgle"?

Because causality is not respected in the warp. If you've read Lovecraft, you'd be familiar with Eldritch Abominations not respecting any physical laws or even being comprehensible by normal logic. Physics doesn't exist in the warp, it's a soup of liquid thought which formed seperately from the material universe and thus is governed by completely different physical laws (hence why many things dissolve when exposed to warp energy, they literally can't exist). Slaanesh is both newborn yet has always existed. Schrodinger's state of existence, half dead and half alive.

And this is also how Khaine and Khorne can be related (Awfully similar spelling isn't it?) The negative emotions could very well split Khaine into two entities eventually where the negative emotions would feed Khorne while the other more positive emotions of the Eldar fed Khaine which is why the Eldar see them as being related to each other which makes sense given the nature of warp itself and how Khorne could of been more about noble warfare during his first inception but the negative emotions and bloodlust corrupted his being.

Wat

Khaine and Khorne are completely seperate entities. Largely because Khorne was present for Khaine's sundering by Slaanesh.

To start my rebuttal, when you act like Chaos Gods are completely the most powerful thing in the Galaxy, you border on making them seem more like a Mary Sue property than an actual unstoppable force. Frankly, this bothers when anyone does this with any property, no matter the side and I have seen every kind of fan do it in Warhammer 40k. The Chaos Gods are not omnipotent like you are making them out to be, they aren't even omnipresent or omniscient. Are they powerful warp entities? Yes, they are but they can still be laid low and they can still be defeated. They are not masters of the Warp, no entity is. They are truly at the mercy of those who believe in them. Why do we as mortals then try to overcome them? Because they appeal to our baser instincts and let us give into our dark desires. That is what they represent. They are a force that we can destroy, if we wanted to but being human, we don't want it.

That being said now, Gork and Mork most certainly exist. Orks have their emotions and will reflected into the warp just like humans and eldar. This has manifested both gods into existence and the orks powers aren't as flashy as humans or eldar, they believe their mechanics work so they do is usually how ork psychic energy works so therefore, the manifestations of Gork and Mork would never been in the same manner that the Chaos Gods, the Eldar Gods or the Emperor choose to manifest themselves. The demonstration of Gork and Mork is usually through the Orks themselves like when Mekboys get visions to build Gargants or when an Ork Waaagh! is called like the one called by Ghazghkull and is usually the reason why Orks win so well during such times. At the same time, other races don't feel the influence of either Gork and Mork because they don't care, they only care about Orks and Orks fighting everything. So to say that they don't exist is kind of a misnomer when in an interesting ironic principle, the power of Gork and Mork is subtle and only felt by Orks.

A warp entity can never be self-sustaining, being of the immaterium, there is no way for a warp entity to keep itself existing. It has to have mortal races believing in them for them to continue their existence. A warp entity can't believe in itself. This is why the Cabal called for Horus to win who would then destroy humanity and then the Chaos Gods would be extinguished with them seeing as humans are their biggest fuel source when it comes to their power. If you destroy the majority of the race that believes in a Warp God, that God ceases to exist hence why the Eldar Gods will never come back to the same power levels that they had during the height of Eldar power, most of the Eldar race is dead and therefore can not contribute to giving more power to them. The whole reason why daemons and warp entities want to escape the warp and go into the material universe is because they want to actually exist and be real instead of being the reflections of the emotions and will of mortal beings. That is essentially the whole temptation and desire of leaving the warp, otherwise wouldn't staying in a realm of existence where anything is possible be more desirable? You have "infinite" power but can be blinked out of existence after the collective stops believing in you.

The Eldar Gods function differently from the Chaos Gods because a different race fueled them, the Eldar. Gork and Mork function fundamentally different as because they are created through the Orks. The Chaos Gods are mostly constructs of the human collective psyche and thus have mostly properties from that race. If the human race went extinct meaning if the Imeprium fell, the Chaos Gods days are numbered as well because the race that they have invested themselves in would be gone. That is the awesome paradox that comes from this. For Chaos Gods to exist, the human race has to exist because the Chaos gods are the reflection of the negative emotions and the desire for power in the human race, if they were to actually win, they would destroy themselves because everyone would turn on each other and the negative emotions would destroy itself.

The Emperor is not waning in power in the least bit, he has actually grown in power since he was interred into the Golden Throne. Not to mention that the Imperial Creed has helped him grow in power to God-hood because now you also have a collective of humans sending their positive emotions and will into the warp as worship of the Emperor thus making him more powerful. What is waning is the Emperor's connection to the material realm, the few life signs within his physical body are keeping him connected to the material world and thus keeping the Astronmicon lit. Should these cells dye, the Emperor would no longer have a physical body and become a pure warp entity at that point which could have many consequences and theories about what would happen should the Emperor's body die but he would not disappear from existence but become a human constructed God of Order through the Imperial Creed. At the same time he is also a Perpetual so there is a good chance that he would also be reborn should he ever be let to die so keeping him alive in the Golden Throne could actually be hurting the human race instead of helping. All in all though, the Emperor is not loosing power in anyway shape or form. As I said before, the miracles performed in his name which mirror those of the Chaos Gods and the fact that the Sisters can do what they do with their pure faith are the testament to the Emperor's divinity through the rise of the Imperial Creed.

I did not say that Khaine and Khorne are the same entity. What I did say is that they are in some way related to each other and that one may have come from the other. In the Eldar tales of the two Gods, they speak of there being some relation. The Eldar saying the Khorne came from Khaine and that to be consumed by Khorne would not be such a bad fate because Khorne would keep them from being consumed by She who thirsts. Evidence for this was in the audio drama Howl of the Banshee by Gav Thorpe. Whether this is just what the Eldar say or if it is true is another matter but it is the warp and anything can happen. This is also why Khorne would of laid claim to Khaine in the first place, whether Khorne came from Khaine or Khaine from Khorne, Khorne would have some leanings towards wanting to keep Khaine for himself.

Then there is the whole idea that the Chaos Gods don't exist, that they are just overarching ideas to describe the collective of negative emotions and corruption caused by the human races existence and that we just have given them names in order to understand them better. Give a name to something that we fight against instead of believing in and fighting against vague concept. It is the warp at all, the immaterium where almost anything is possible and impossible to figure out, the abstract and unreal.

I always feel like an Avatar of Khaine should win, but afaik the Bloodthirster would win if dice were involved.

In the fluff, an Avatar would win. There's just no debate.
We're not talking about The gods Khorne and Khaine, we're talking about An Avatar and a Bloodthirster.
Which means we're talking flesh and blood versus metal and lava... With the metal and lava being a slightly better fighter.

 Archonate wrote:
In the fluff, an Avatar would win. There's just no debate.
We're not talking about The gods Khorne and Khaine, we're talking about An Avatar and a Bloodthirster.
Which means we're talking flesh and blood versus metal and lava... With the metal and lava being a slightly better fighter.

Tell that to the Avatar that was choked by Fulgrim before being gutted with the Laer blade.

Also, the feth? Daemons aren't made of flesh. They're made of the warp, which can do fun things like make entities out of tissue stronger then actual metal. Hell in the fluff, Avatars have the distinction of being killed by virtually everybody. The only time Avatars show up is to be killed by the protagonist. The only time they made an appearance without dying that I can recall was in the Path of the Eldar books.

Depends who the story is about really.

pm713 wrote:
Depends who the story is about really.

But that's the point. The Eldar lose even in their own books. They suffer from being the whipping boys of GW and barely ever get an actual honest to god clean victory. It's almost always either a loss of Pyrrhic, just see the Path of the Eldar books where Alaitoc was nearly destroyed. In their own freaking book.

Even the Imperial Fists fair better then the Eldar, and that's saying a lot.

 Wyzilla wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Depends who the story is about really.

But that's the point. The Eldar lose even in their own books. They suffer from being the whipping boys of GW and barely ever get an actual honest to god clean victory. It's almost always either a loss of Pyrrhic, just see the Path of the Eldar books where Alaitoc was nearly destroyed. In their own freaking book.

Even the Imperial Fists fair better then the Eldar, and that's saying a lot.

You have a point there.

 Wyzilla wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Depends who the story is about really.

But that's the point. The Eldar lose even in their own books. They suffer from being the whipping boys of GW and barely ever get an actual honest to god clean victory. It's almost always either a loss of Pyrrhic, just see the Path of the Eldar books where Alaitoc was nearly destroyed. In their own freaking book.

Even the Imperial Fists fair better then the Eldar, and that's saying a lot.

Really? How do the Imperial Fists always lose? I know they come out severely battered and lost a lot of numbers but they complete their missions and win their battles...well, I guess that is what you are talking about.

 Envihon wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Depends who the story is about really.

But that's the point. The Eldar lose even in their own books. They suffer from being the whipping boys of GW and barely ever get an actual honest to god clean victory. It's almost always either a loss of Pyrrhic, just see the Path of the Eldar books where Alaitoc was nearly destroyed. In their own freaking book.

Even the Imperial Fists fair better then the Eldar, and that's saying a lot.

Really? How do the Imperial Fists always lose? I know they come out severely battered and lost a lot of numbers but they complete their missions and win their battles...well, I guess that is what you are talking about.

While the Ultramarines, Sallies, Dark Angels, etc tend to come out on top, the Imperial Fists are well known as a bit of a trope for either getting badly mauled in campaigns or becoming a straight up punching bag. Technically this would be due to their "win or die" attitude, but it's like rooting for the Raiders. Or the Sea Hawks.

Even if an Avatar won a physical contest, it would probably still be dragged down and die of wounds it sustained because of Eldar luck (or lack there of).

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Depends who the story is about really.

But that's the point. The Eldar lose even in their own books. They suffer from being the whipping boys of GW and barely ever get an actual honest to god clean victory. It's almost always either a loss of Pyrrhic, just see the Path of the Eldar books where Alaitoc was nearly destroyed. In their own freaking book.

Even the Imperial Fists fair better then the Eldar, and that's saying a lot.

Really? How do the Imperial Fists always lose? I know they come out severely battered and lost a lot of numbers but they complete their missions and win their battles...well, I guess that is what you are talking about.

While the Ultramarines, Sallies, Dark Angels, etc tend to come out on top, the Imperial Fists are well known as a bit of a trope for either getting badly mauled in campaigns or becoming a straight up punching bag. Technically this would be due to their "win or die" attitude, but it's like rooting for the Raiders. Or the Sea Hawks.

Even if an Avatar won a physical contest, it would probably still be dragged down and die of wounds it sustained because of Eldar luck (or lack there of).

That is what is kind of endearing about the Imperial Fists and characters like the Eldar and their Avatar (Unlike the Ultrasmurfs who border on Mary Sue characterization), even against all the odds they still hold out but you are right, the Eldar don't fair too well but isn't that what they are suppose to do? They are a twilight race hanging on the last strands to make sure to thwart Chaos.

Maybe that is what swaying my opinion because in a straight up fight, I will give it to you, the Bloodthrister would win but I am factoring the Eldar doing something else to guarantee that the Avatar wins. It would cost them but ultimately they would win.

 Envihon wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Depends who the story is about really.

But that's the point. The Eldar lose even in their own books. They suffer from being the whipping boys of GW and barely ever get an actual honest to god clean victory. It's almost always either a loss of Pyrrhic, just see the Path of the Eldar books where Alaitoc was nearly destroyed. In their own freaking book.

Even the Imperial Fists fair better then the Eldar, and that's saying a lot.

Really? How do the Imperial Fists always lose? I know they come out severely battered and lost a lot of numbers but they complete their missions and win their battles...well, I guess that is what you are talking about.

While the Ultramarines, Sallies, Dark Angels, etc tend to come out on top, the Imperial Fists are well known as a bit of a trope for either getting badly mauled in campaigns or becoming a straight up punching bag. Technically this would be due to their "win or die" attitude, but it's like rooting for the Raiders. Or the Sea Hawks.

Even if an Avatar won a physical contest, it would probably still be dragged down and die of wounds it sustained because of Eldar luck (or lack there of).

That is what is kind of endearing about the Imperial Fists and characters like the Eldar and their Avatar (Unlike the Ultrasmurfs who border on Mary Sue characterization), even against all the odds they still hold out but you are right, the Eldar don't fair too well but isn't that what they are suppose to do? They are a twilight race hanging on the last strands to make sure to thwart Chaos.

Maybe that is what swaying my opinion because in a straight up fight, I will give it to you, the Bloodthrister would win but I am factoring the Eldar doing something else to guarantee that the Avatar wins. It would cost them but ultimately they would win.

It's narrative overriding common sense. In a military engagement, Eldar should utterly dominate everyone but Necrons and Space marines given the absurd and delicoius away of weaponry. These are guys who wield weaponized dimensional gear that tears holes in realtiy that rip apart vehicles or flesh, their basic firearm is a pistol that fires a shuriken disc capable of severing molecular bonds, and every, single, individual, is, a, psyker. On the scale of "feth stuff up" Eldar should be very near the top. Not to mention the idea of their race "dying off" is overblown considering they aren't suffering from inbreeding, and Craftworld populations number in the billions. Small compared to the quadrillions of humanity, but certainly not a fading light.

Also, it's not really sue-ish ness, it's just being an effective fighting force. When somebody keeps losing in a fight, eventually the conclusion is going to be drawn that you're just not very good at waging war, as opposed to being the punching bag of the author.

As for the fight, there is no other "help". It's a Bloodthirster and Avatar dropped into a boxing ring with no outside help. The only likely conclusions is either the Bloodthirster decapitates the Avatar and claims its head, or the Avatar kills the Bloodthirster and falls over dead from its wounds. Although it's not like it's a real loss for either of them, considering they're daemons and will pop back into existence in varying amounts of time.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Depends who the story is about really.

But that's the point. The Eldar lose even in their own books. They suffer from being the whipping boys of GW and barely ever get an actual honest to god clean victory. It's almost always either a loss of Pyrrhic, just see the Path of the Eldar books where Alaitoc was nearly destroyed. In their own freaking book.

Even the Imperial Fists fair better then the Eldar, and that's saying a lot.

Really? How do the Imperial Fists always lose? I know they come out severely battered and lost a lot of numbers but they complete their missions and win their battles...well, I guess that is what you are talking about.

While the Ultramarines, Sallies, Dark Angels, etc tend to come out on top, the Imperial Fists are well known as a bit of a trope for either getting badly mauled in campaigns or becoming a straight up punching bag. Technically this would be due to their "win or die" attitude, but it's like rooting for the Raiders. Or the Sea Hawks.

Even if an Avatar won a physical contest, it would probably still be dragged down and die of wounds it sustained because of Eldar luck (or lack there of).

That is what is kind of endearing about the Imperial Fists and characters like the Eldar and their Avatar (Unlike the Ultrasmurfs who border on Mary Sue characterization), even against all the odds they still hold out but you are right, the Eldar don't fair too well but isn't that what they are suppose to do? They are a twilight race hanging on the last strands to make sure to thwart Chaos.

Maybe that is what swaying my opinion because in a straight up fight, I will give it to you, the Bloodthrister would win but I am factoring the Eldar doing something else to guarantee that the Avatar wins. It would cost them but ultimately they would win.

It's narrative overriding common sense. In a military engagement, Eldar should utterly dominate everyone but Necrons and Space marines given the absurd and delicoius away of weaponry. These are guys who wield weaponized dimensional gear that tears holes in realtiy that rip apart vehicles or flesh, their basic firearm is a pistol that fires a shuriken disc capable of severing molecular bonds, and every, single, individual, is, a, psyker. On the scale of "feth stuff up" Eldar should be very near the top. Not to mention the idea of their race "dying off" is overblown considering they aren't suffering from inbreeding, and Craftworld populations number in the billions. Small compared to the quadrillions of humanity, but certainly not a fading light.

Also, it's not really sue-ish ness, it's just being an effective fighting force. When somebody keeps losing in a fight, eventually the conclusion is going to be drawn that you're just not very good at waging war, as opposed to being the punching bag of the author.

As for the fight, there is no other "help". It's a Bloodthirster and Avatar dropped into a boxing ring with no outside help. The only likely conclusions is either the Bloodthirster decapitates the Avatar and claims its head, or the Avatar kills the Bloodthirster and falls over dead from its wounds. Although it's not like it's a real loss for either of them, considering they're daemons and will pop back into existence in varying amounts of time.

All fair points. The problem of the Eldar is that they fall prey to their source material, the Eldar of Tolkien who is a fading light. GW just decided to give a bigger reason for their Eldar to fade, they literally spawned a daemon so they are just trying to present that albeit, they may hit it a little too hard to make a point or make it more "grim, dark".

The same goes for the Imperial Fists, they are trying to drive home the "Too Stubborn To Die" mentality of the Imperial Fists. Not saying that it's right but I know where the are coming from even if it comes off as too much of an exaggeration to the point of breaking suspension of belief.

Why dont you guys just do some math hammering? There are stats for both models so just do the statistical analysis when they fight off like the horrible show, Deadliest Warrior. Fething Ninja Loses to Spartan!

Skill? Avatar probably takes it.

Strength? Gotta be the Thirster.

Speed? Those wings make the Thirster pretty damn quick. The Avatar is probably more agile though, being a reflection of an Eldar.

Toughness? I really have no idea here. Molten metal body vs top notch warp skin, who knows...

As an Eldar fan, I think the Bloodthirster has an edge. The Thirster will charge in and one of two things will happen.

1) The Avatar parries the Bloodthirsters opening strike or otherwise survives the charge, and now it's a good fight.

-or-

2) The Avatar can't block the flying charge and gets killed or seriously wounded off the bat.


If the two met at the head of their respective armies, I'd give the edge to the Eldar. They find the Avatar much more inspirational than Chaos forces would find a Bloodthirster.

 Envihon wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Depends who the story is about really.

But that's the point. The Eldar lose even in their own books. They suffer from being the whipping boys of GW and barely ever get an actual honest to god clean victory. It's almost always either a loss of Pyrrhic, just see the Path of the Eldar books where Alaitoc was nearly destroyed. In their own freaking book.

Even the Imperial Fists fair better then the Eldar, and that's saying a lot.

Really? How do the Imperial Fists always lose? I know they come out severely battered and lost a lot of numbers but they complete their missions and win their battles...well, I guess that is what you are talking about.

While the Ultramarines, Sallies, Dark Angels, etc tend to come out on top, the Imperial Fists are well known as a bit of a trope for either getting badly mauled in campaigns or becoming a straight up punching bag. Technically this would be due to their "win or die" attitude, but it's like rooting for the Raiders. Or the Sea Hawks.

Even if an Avatar won a physical contest, it would probably still be dragged down and die of wounds it sustained because of Eldar luck (or lack there of).

That is what is kind of endearing about the Imperial Fists and characters like the Eldar and their Avatar (Unlike the Ultrasmurfs who border on Mary Sue characterization), even against all the odds they still hold out but you are right, the Eldar don't fair too well but isn't that what they are suppose to do? They are a twilight race hanging on the last strands to make sure to thwart Chaos.

Maybe that is what swaying my opinion because in a straight up fight, I will give it to you, the Bloodthrister would win but I am factoring the Eldar doing something else to guarantee that the Avatar wins. It would cost them but ultimately they would win.

It's narrative overriding common sense. In a military engagement, Eldar should utterly dominate everyone but Necrons and Space marines given the absurd and delicoius away of weaponry. These are guys who wield weaponized dimensional gear that tears holes in realtiy that rip apart vehicles or flesh, their basic firearm is a pistol that fires a shuriken disc capable of severing molecular bonds, and every, single, individual, is, a, psyker. On the scale of "feth stuff up" Eldar should be very near the top. Not to mention the idea of their race "dying off" is overblown considering they aren't suffering from inbreeding, and Craftworld populations number in the billions. Small compared to the quadrillions of humanity, but certainly not a fading light.

Also, it's not really sue-ish ness, it's just being an effective fighting force. When somebody keeps losing in a fight, eventually the conclusion is going to be drawn that you're just not very good at waging war, as opposed to being the punching bag of the author.

As for the fight, there is no other "help". It's a Bloodthirster and Avatar dropped into a boxing ring with no outside help. The only likely conclusions is either the Bloodthirster decapitates the Avatar and claims its head, or the Avatar kills the Bloodthirster and falls over dead from its wounds. Although it's not like it's a real loss for either of them, considering they're daemons and will pop back into existence in varying amounts of time.

All fair points. The problem of the Eldar is that they fall prey to their source material, the Eldar of Tolkien who is a fading light. GW just decided to give a bigger reason for their Eldar to fade, they literally spawned a daemon so they are just trying to present that albeit, they may hit it a little too hard to make a point or make it more "grim, dark".

The same goes for the Imperial Fists, they are trying to drive home the "Too Stubborn To Die" mentality of the Imperial Fists. Not saying that it's right but I know where the are coming from even if it comes off as too much of an exaggeration to the point of breaking suspension of belief.

The Elves of tolkien were utterly insane masters of combat and didn't really get their asses kicked. Or if they did, it was by the epitome of evil. They didn't nearly suffer as badly from losing battles as the Eldar do.

pm713 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Depends who the story is about really.

But that's the point. The Eldar lose even in their own books. They suffer from being the whipping boys of GW and barely ever get an actual honest to god clean victory. It's almost always either a loss of Pyrrhic, just see the Path of the Eldar books where Alaitoc was nearly destroyed. In their own freaking book.

Even the Imperial Fists fair better then the Eldar, and that's saying a lot.

You have a point there.

GW books play out in a world where all of the Eldar players have been shamed into avoiding Wave Serpent spam

You ask me, Eldrad should ditch all of his far-seeing and just give a message to the leaders of all the other Craftworlds telling them to stop building everything except for Wave Serpents.

Imagine it- when GW rewrites the 13th Black Crusade, instead of Abaddon taking Cadia, one Craftworld shows up and its Wave Serpent-spam armies would hold off the entire Chaos horde without the help of a single PDF regiment or marine tactical squad.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Archonate wrote:
In the fluff, an Avatar would win. There's just no debate.
We're not talking about The gods Khorne and Khaine, we're talking about An Avatar and a Bloodthirster.
Which means we're talking flesh and blood versus metal and lava... With the metal and lava being a slightly better fighter.

Tell that to the Avatar that was choked by Fulgrim before being gutted with the Laer blade.

Also, the feth? Daemons aren't made of flesh. They're made of the warp, which can do fun things like make entities out of tissue stronger then actual metal. Hell in the fluff, Avatars have the distinction of being killed by virtually everybody. The only time Avatars show up is to be killed by the protagonist. The only time they made an appearance without dying that I can recall was in the Path of the Eldar books.

You're still going off books. I think it was accurately determined back at the beginning of this thread that the books are a very unreliable source of fluff... As sad and contradictory as that sounds. If protagonists are SMs, they're untouchable. If it's IG, they die like flies but just barely pull through. GW ALWAYS wants Chaos to be super villains and super villains suck if they're depicted as dying as easily as the good guys... even if they should. Whereas races like Eldar were made to appear in constant struggle for survival, thus always fare horribly when they should actually(according to codex fluff) be kicking all flavors of ass. With the massive disparity between different authors' interpretations of the fluff, I'm going off codex description vs. codex description.
Are demons not squishy anymore? I guess that got retconned. Last I knew, they had a demonic aura to protect them, but were otherwise pretty soft. Even with warpidermis it's a close fight in which I see the Avatar having an edge.

And don't forget, the Avatar is technically considered demon, but more sentient and less elemental.

 Archonate wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Archonate wrote:
In the fluff, an Avatar would win. There's just no debate.
We're not talking about The gods Khorne and Khaine, we're talking about An Avatar and a Bloodthirster.
Which means we're talking flesh and blood versus metal and lava... With the metal and lava being a slightly better fighter.

Tell that to the Avatar that was choked by Fulgrim before being gutted with the Laer blade.

Also, the feth? Daemons aren't made of flesh. They're made of the warp, which can do fun things like make entities out of tissue stronger then actual metal. Hell in the fluff, Avatars have the distinction of being killed by virtually everybody. The only time Avatars show up is to be killed by the protagonist. The only time they made an appearance without dying that I can recall was in the Path of the Eldar books.

You're still going off books. I think it was accurately determined back at the beginning of this thread that the books are a very unreliable source of fluff... As sad and contradictory as that sounds. If protagonists are SMs, they're untouchable. If it's IG, they die like flies but just barely pull through. GW ALWAYS wants Chaos to be super villains and super villains suck if they're depicted as dying as easily as the good guys... even if they should. Whereas races like Eldar were made to appear in constant struggle for survival, thus always fare horribly when they should actually(according to codex fluff) be kicking all flavors of ass. With the massive disparity between different authors' interpretations of the fluff, I'm going off codex description vs. codex description.
Are demons not squishy anymore? I guess that got retconned. Last I knew, they had a demonic aura to protect them, but were otherwise pretty soft. Even with warpidermis it's a close fight in which I see the Avatar having an edge.

And don't forget, the Avatar is technically considered demon, but more sentient and less elemental.

...Which doesn't change that Avatars are pathetic losers whose only distinction is constantly getting whacked. They have no feats that put them above a Bloodthirster, and game-wise are probably going to get brutally murdered by Bloodthrister Deathstars.

Also, basing anything the tabletop is asinine and downright stupid given how contrived and nonsensical the game already is. It's a very, very great abstraction of 40k that does not resemble the actual 40k in-universe view at all.