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Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan




Homestead, FL

You don't think that games-workshop added that mekaniacs rule to make a bit more money? I mean even without that special rule wouldn't everyone want to take a mekboy thats basically a regular boy that can repair a vehicle 1 HP on a roll of 5 or 6? I mean hell GW even gave them a fair price for such a useless model, you know how really good HQ units are expensive? hell the Mek boy is a measly...$21 .....I think that translates to every ork army buying between two and four of them so thats another 42-84 dollars to GW for every ork player who doesn't want to lose their Nob in CC against a model that gets to swing at init.

I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Melevolence wrote:
 grendel083 wrote:
Melevolence wrote:
Spoiler:
mhalko1 wrote:
darkcloak wrote:
The mob rule is actually one of the strongest points in that codex.

Who else gets to ignore the results of a failed morale check at next to no expense? Seriously the mob rule works just fine. If it were any different you would literally never ever break Orks.

At least the way I see it, the Mob Rule is what makes Orks work.


To be honest I can see where some people like the Mob rule. The way they play makes it useful or they just happen to get lucky. Or it can suck most of the time. For me is sucks most of the time.

Depending on the unit ( It will either FAIL 100% of the time, or need to roll a 1 in close combat) Against shooting mob rule works better. In close combat the store i go to almost always challenges out the nob so I either have to refuse or the nob will die. (my opponents know not to let him swing).
After all attacks are done in close combat I'm almost always under 10. If i refused the challenge a 1-3 will keep me alive and if I took a supplement attachment where I have to accept or I chose to then the Nob is dead and I have to roll a 1.

The way I see it is that you know the rule is somewhat broken when they added the mek 15 point character, so that you don't have to refuse a challenge and can pay for a substitute death in order to not flee. That's what this unit is. Every forum posting says to do this and nobody talks about taking them to help heal vehicle lists.

Against shooting the mob rule works better. You don't lose LD for losing combat. You almost never get a 30 man boy squad shot down to less than 10. And the nob also doesn't get focused out unless there happen to be precision shots.

Most people only focus on the mob rule for 1 type of phase. You have to count both ways when deciding if this rule needs tweaking. For shooting it seems perfectly capable of benefiting smaller squads. They have a double chance to pass. In close combat they have a (16.67% to 50% chance to pass. More often then not it's 16.67%.... if you're orky.


To be fair, 15pt Meks have been a blessing. And no one uses them for vehicle heal lists because Ork vehicles suck. It takes very little to break them down, and using those Meks to heal 1HP unreliably is not worth it. I'd rather them be challenge fodder. If I were running a strict Ork Walker/Wagon spam list, then yes, they would be used for vehicle repairing where challenges don't matter. Until Vehicles become worth using for more than suicide missions, Meks will be challenge eaters.
They're well worth it in a Stompa.
Also for Mek gun units, as they sadly no longer get a Runtherd.


Stompa is quite possibly the only thing worth using them in. MAYBE a Morkanaught if you really wanted to. I've done that a few times, but they usually go to waste. But yes, In Stompas, you run a Mek Workshop to keep the sucker krumpin.

I usually put a Big Mek with the Mek Gunz, using a Shokk Attack Gun. Give em better leadership and also add another juicy pie plate to the mix ;p Plus give the Mek T7


This would be really bad if you get the one that launches the mek and his unit though. even though him and 20 grots charging would be hilarious.
   
Made in gb
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Mob rule isnt as bad as everyone is making it out to be. here is my analysis:


units of 10/12 in trucks

Advantages:
units of 10/12 (those in trucks most of the time) can now still stay on the board even if they fail their Ld save on the roll of 2-3 on mob rule table. with the available re roll from a boss pole this is a 5/9 chance (0.55% chance). before, they would just fell and truck boyz were less viable. But now, even if you fail the Led check, it will have been the same as before. if you pass the mob rule check you will lose an avg of 1.46 orks (assuming t shirt saves) and 0.875 orks if you have eavy armour.

Disadvantages
since before, the mob rule was irreverent if you have 10 or less orks, the fact that now there is a way of preventing fleeing, this is only a good thing. the only big disadvantage is that when the boyz vehicle explodes, they may lose boyz from pinning checks. we all know trucks suck, but these are cheap units and us ork bosses cant expect them to last long, but i would rather lose some boyz so that the others can still have a fight rather than run away.


Units of 20-30 foot slogging

Advantages:
Unfortunately, when using lots of boyz on foot, we would all prefer the fearless! i wish i could have it for these guys. However, mob rule protects the squad form pinning when it did not before, and this is only when the squad FAILS its Ld check remember, and hopefully you have a HQ if your slogging. But lets be honest, we dont see much foot slogging anymore and the old 'boyz before toyz' isnt relevant anymore. However, if you do slog (which i do sometimes with 2X 20 boyz) you generally have more distracting unitz blitzing across the battlefield to draw fire.

Disadvantages
No longer get fearless with your big units. as above however, remember that we no longer need boyz before toys, and that more mobile, smaller unitz are beginning to become the way to go. footslogging isnt dead though.

please feel free to add anything or comment


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ghazkuul wrote:
You don't think that games-workshop added that mekaniacs rule to make a bit more money? I mean even without that special rule wouldn't everyone want to take a mekboy thats basically a regular boy that can repair a vehicle 1 HP on a roll of 5 or 6? I mean hell GW even gave them a fair price for such a useless model, you know how really good HQ units are expensive? hell the Mek boy is a measly...$21 .....I think that translates to every ork army buying between two and four of them so thats another 42-84 dollars to GW for every ork player who doesn't want to lose their Nob in CC against a model that gets to swing at init.


just use the mek boyz that come with looters and burnas set

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/28 23:12:54


 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan




Homestead, FL

When in vehicles units are fearless

I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders 
   
Made in gb
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





 Ghazkuul wrote:
When in vehicles units are fearless


but when the vehicle explodes, they have to make pinning check
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





One of my good buddies has played Orks for years and he cannot stand the new mob rule and I have to agree with him. Watching him eat 40+ of his own guys a game can get frustrating and I understand his problems with it. I think it needs to be changed to only be in the case of morale checks, that alone would help it.

19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan




Homestead, FL

The new mob rule is broken, I have lost more Orks to the Mob rule then enemy shooting in games....thats just not right.

I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Personally I think the new mob rule is fine.
The old mob rule won't make orcs much better
However the Ork codex can use a few tweaks
ork slugga boyz should be 5ppm
Cybork shoukd of been a 5 pt upgrade that improves fnp by 1
Ghazskull should of had the ability to call wasghh each turn even if his invul was only 4+
Trukk ramshackle rule should reduce the chance of the trukk exploding.

Why the above?
Cheaper boyz equal bigger blobs and reduces the effect of losing boyz to new mob rule.
Cybork makes ur character more resilient and makes mad doks cybork and fnp stack, making him and his fesrless more durable and point efficient.
Ghaz becomes another reliable fearless unit
12 man trukk squads won't destroy themselves as easily

Ork shouldn't be unstoppable units, they should be semi durable weight of numbers units. They are kinda over priced right now is the issue.

Beyond the above
I'd also like to see Ork walkers gain fleet and able to move, run, charge under a waagh.
I'd also like to see Ork buggies and trakks gain a cover save when 2 or more are within 2in of each other.
But the above kinda stuff would be good to see in a supplement as formstion rules like a speed freak
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan




Homestead, FL

The new mob rule causes massive casualties in each squad, upwards of 4-10 models Per unit a game. losing over a third of your unit to your nob is kinda garbage. furthermore they nerf hammered Ramshackle so it sucks horribly compared to what it was, they nerfed Cybork so that it is a useless upgrade that nobody takes unless they are a noob or have nothing else to spend points on. Ghazkuul needs his attacks back and he needs a bloody invul save. every ork unit should benefit from the waaaagh. My Morkanaut wants to play and he isn't allowed to

I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Pretty much everything you mentioned was fix by what I stated.
Boyz costing less means losing two or three to mob rule wouldn't be an issue cause they break even on the cost and end up more resilent then with the old mob rule.
All ramshackle needs to do is prevent exploding vehcioes form wiping out your troops. Cybork would be a decent upgrade if it improced fnp by 1. And ghaz would be a 2+, 4++, unit that gave fearless to all Orks and make all the mega armour Orks in his squad able to move run charge each turn which would be huge if he was able to call wasgh each turn.
I'd also make lootas twinlinked but that's another story:
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan




Homestead, FL

If I already field units of 30 boyz and i lose about 20-30% to mob rule that doesnt help me it just means i have 30 more points to field in something else thats great and all but i want my boyz to live instead of the nob killing them all.

I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




30 more points is a nob with pk. More then enough to prevent the 20-30% number that has no real basis on truth. You lose About 1 boys without fnp on a failed morale/pin check. About 3 busting heads, at str4 vs tough4, and you can even try an armour save. This is only if you fail ur ld check. The greentide at LVO didn't even take the 20pt fesrless banner because it's not that big of a deal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/01 18:49:25


 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan




Homestead, FL

I usually run several small units or 2-3 large blobs or boyz so When I roll ld and fail (every time it feels like) I roll on the mob rule table and i get a 2-6 almost every time because I always include a BP. Rolling you get 1-6 result so go with the 4 average and thats 4 S4 hits meaning 2 wounds and a 6+ save means 2 dead orks EACH TIME! So yes I lose about 20-30% each game to my own mob rule table. generally I lose 6-10 boyz from each squad of 30 so yeah my estimates are about right. keep in mind those are averages, Ive had terrible games and really good games but generally 20% is the average.

I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ya well with rounded all the numbers in your favor and claiming to fail every leadership check and ignoring saves you would get 6-8 boyz but in real life. The average of a normal non ghaz supp busting heads is 3.5 with a 50% wound rate so 1.75 and a 1/6 save is 1.45 dead Orks. This is if you fail ur ld7 save and if your not in combat and roll a 1 with reroll which is no damage.

Personally right now I'm playing a mogroks boss boy swarm list. With 2 30 man slugga boy squads with pk on and a 2+ rerollable mega armour lucky stikk warboss or mega armour big mek with 2+ reroll warlord trait, painboy, with one of the two sqauds w a weirdboy. One outflanks, the other infiltrates or gates.
5x Mek gunz w a mega armour big mek
14 lootas w big mek on quad gun w gitfinda behind aegis
3x squad of tankbustas in trukks
Screened the trukks are 8x warbikers w nob and pk for cover save.

With all the love for void shield Orks. I'm thinking of dropping the aegis and putting the lootas on the vsg battkements and I can still buy the quad gun for the big mek w gitfinda who joins the lootas. I'd also like to check out big trakks instead of trukks especially for the 5pt planks however I don't have the models and the ia book is being redone soon. I don't use boss poles but most units are ld8 or 9 and the blobs have painboys which make almost any mob rule completely irrelevant. I can always drop the gitfinda for a bosspole for the bikers but so far I've been lucky with the mob rule table with toughness5, 4+ armour save Orks.

I find the list pretty durable because both boy squds are lead by a toughness5, 2+ rerollable, 5+fnp multi wound boss who can tank anything but ap2, which I use my independsnt character 2+ LoS roll.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/03/01 19:46:38


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






In a Trayzn pokeball

If you want to house rule it out, then sure, but if you have such disregard for the rules, then I'd like all my guardsmen to have 2 up invulnerable saves, BS 5 and Ap 2 S10 lazguns.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The hobby is actually hating GW.
 iGuy91 wrote:
You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
 Elbows wrote:
You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote:
Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan




Homestead, FL

i think your about the 3rd person to make that kind of ridiculous comment.

I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders 
   
Made in gb
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
If you want to house rule it out, then sure, but if you have such disregard for the rules, then I'd like all my guardsmen to have 2 up invulnerable saves, BS 5 and Ap 2 S10 lazguns.



HAHA silly 'ummie, you gitz would get STOMPED anyway!

but yes, the rules are the rules and we can complain about how da boyz love to smack each other as much as we want, OR we can accept that orks will be orks and work around it

"Are you ok with orks ignoring the mob rule"? HELL NO BRO. why would you dislike the fact that da boyz get to fight even AFTER the assault phase?

If you dont like the mob rule (which i understand and can relate to sometimes) then your not as much of a warboss as you think we all know orks are that race everyone (generally) loves to play against because their generals (you and I) have a little bit of orky humor deep inside ourselves that just wants to see stuff fight even if its his own orks







.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/03/01 20:08:22


 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan




Homestead, FL

Nope, im more of a crazy Big Mek general, I don't want to see everyone fighting I want to see things randomly explode and do the most random of things ever.

I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

... and a brawl breaking out in the ranks isn't random?

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan




Homestead, FL

No, in fact its ridiculous, a good nob would kill 1 ork and the rest would fall in line. the idea of him having to kill between 2-5 more orks out of a unit of 30 means that someone wasnt thinking. At most it should be D3 not D6

I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You do realize mob rule is just a cheaper more reliable version of the guard commissar rule. But instead of killing your nobs you have a chance at killing 1-6 boys.
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan




Homestead, FL

and you realize that before this current Mob rule the old one was fearless until you have 10 models? and then you still got to roll leadership if you failed so long as you wacked 1, not up to 6 just 1!!!! ork.

I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ya and it works on less then 10 boyz now which is a huge bonus. And we still have access to fearless via ghaz, mad doc and a relic.
And how it use to work has nothing to do with how the current mob rule is fine and balanced to other armies.
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan




Homestead, FL

Ghazkuul only provides fearless for 1 turn, and if your bringing large units of boyz then this new Mob rule sucks compared to the old one. The current one was designed for people to trukk spam and field lots of smaller units, theres no flexibility its either one or the other with GW....>DAMN YOU GEEDUBZ!

I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




And yet the most effective build is a greentide in which the last person that used it the most effective didn't even take a 20pt fearless banner because it was basically immune to morale or pinning under the current rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/02 03:02:34


 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






If you're looking at the old version don't forget that mob rule and fearless during that time in 5th ed. we lost models due to the "No Retreat!" clause under Fearless, where you took a number of wounds on your unit equal to how much you lost the combat by. There were serious drawbacks to Mob Rule even back then because if you got charged by something nasty like Khorne Berserkers and lost like a third of the unit in combat you would have to roll that many saves even if you don't roll to see if you break morale. This meant that a lot of the time many of our Ork mobz just popped down to below 10 due to the number of fearless wounds some units could pump out at us in combat. So honestly the D6 S4 hits is pretty tame in comparison.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/02 03:15:58


 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan




Homestead, FL

yeah but you are comparing new and old mob rule and showing a random BRB rule that they changed that had nothing to do with the changing of the ork codex. yeah things sucked for that edition....but they didn't change the ork codex until 7th edition so therefore....doesn't really matter..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also for green tide they don't bother with fearless or worry about losing 1-6 orks because THERE ARE 100 OF THEM! you need to kill 25 just to get the leadership check in the first place, and the majority of green tides have a High Leadership model inside the unit so they are fine regardless. Apples to oranges people come on.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/02 03:54:03


I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The old Ork mob rule was written for 5th edition and the new ork codex was litterally the first codex written for 7th. So really what you want is 6th edition mob rule which wasn't even that great for most units except mid size shoota boy units because the new rule is better for small units, and according to you the new rule doesn't care about large 100 man units.
Personally I think the newly rule is fine, I like there is also a few ways to get fesrless and wish ghaz could could call wasghh each turn to get another reliabke way, but Orks are still really resistant to pinning and morale tests even with the new mob rule. The new mob rule is hardly an issue for why Orks Arnt the most competitve option. It's overproced units, lack of mobility and heavy reliance on low av vehicles and walkers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/02 04:03:59


 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






It really seems like you have an odd vision of what Orks should be and the reality doesn't match your expectations. If you want Fearless troops take Tyranids. Or even better Daemons. If you want random wouldn't you rather play daemons instead? They have an entire warp storm table that can affect you and blow stuff up with Khorne throwing down small blast templates and even random extra daemons troops can spawn under your control. All this while being unaffected by morale or pinning tests by shooting and daemonic instability has just as good a chance of you getting your losses back as disappearing in the blink of an eye.

Also these so called grievous losses from Mob Rule seem greatly exaggerated. You have to see how many S4 hits actually get through and even if you roll a 6 (with an equal chance of a 1) with only S4 wounding on 4's (or less if you're in units like Warbikers) you only get 3 wounds on average. Then you still get to take your armour save, AND FNP. What boyz units don't have a Painboy stuck in it nowadays? Unless you have abysmal rolling you shouldn't be losing 6 boys a turn, and even then they're doing their job soaking up wounds. And trust me its worth losing several boyz than losing the whole unit being swept by an enemy in combat.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/02 04:35:41


 
   
Made in gb
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





 Ghazkuul wrote:
No, in fact its ridiculous, a good nob would kill 1 ork and the rest would fall in line. the idea of him having to kill between 2-5 more orks out of a unit of 30 means that someone wasnt thinking. At most it should be D3 not D6


I 100% agree that it should be D3 and not D6
   
 
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