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After re - reading RP. HappyJew is correct.

So wait, as I understood it,
RP requires me to roll a 5 or 6 to avoid a wound.
There might be some other abilities (eg. FW books) that can lower the required roll number, but the new entry in the 2015 codex says RP can never be lower than a 4 (so no more 2+ RP guy from Damnos, unless they FAQ him an exception... HA! Like that'd ever happen)
Anyway, Ever Living says I add +1 to the roll I make for RP.
Crypteks also adds +1 to the roll.
So let's say I've got a Warrior in a Reclamation Legion with a Cryptek attached to his unit. He gets shot and fails his armor save.
Roll for RP come up 3.
Add 1 for Ever Living.
Add 1 from the Cryptek.
= 5
RP successful!

(the number required hasn't changed, it's still 5. Rule doesn't say anything about not allowing more than one +1 bonus to be added to the roll, does it?)

Technically, yes.
I'm now thinking of some meme image:
"What GW thinks the rules do."
"What TO's think the rules do."
"What the rules actually do."

 skoffs wrote:
So wait, as I understood it,
RP requires me to roll a 5 or 6 to avoid a wound.
There might be some other abilities (eg. FW books) that can lower the required roll number, but the new entry in the 2015 codex says RP can never be lower than a 4 (so no more 2+ RP guy from Damnos, unless they FAQ him an exception... HA! Like that'd ever happen)
Anyway, Ever Living says I add +1 to the roll I make for RP.
Crypteks also adds +1 to the roll.
So let's say I've got a Warrior in a Reclamation Legion with a Cryptek attached to his unit. He gets shot and fails his armor save.
Roll for RP come up 3.
Add 1 for Ever Living.
Add 1 from the Cryptek.
= 5
RP successful!

(the number required hasn't changed, it's still 5. Rule doesn't say anything about not allowing more than one +1 bonus to be added to the roll, does it?)

RAW you are correct
This would be a lot clearer if the rule stated "....the required UNMODIFIED dice roll can never be improved better than a 4+"
I'm going to assume that we Necron players will be sporting though, and that this thread is more to highlight the poor rule writing

MonumentOfRibs wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
So wait, as I understood it,
RP requires me to roll a 5 or 6 to avoid a wound.
There might be some other abilities (eg. FW books) that can lower the required roll number, but the new entry in the 2015 codex says RP can never be lower than a 4 (so no more 2+ RP guy from Damnos, unless they FAQ him an exception... HA! Like that'd ever happen)
Anyway, Ever Living says I add +1 to the roll I make for RP.
Crypteks also adds +1 to the roll.
So let's say I've got a Warrior in a Reclamation Legion with a Cryptek attached to his unit. He gets shot and fails his armor save.
Roll for RP come up 3.
Add 1 for Ever Living.
Add 1 from the Cryptek.
= 5
RP successful!

(the number required hasn't changed, it's still 5. Rule doesn't say anything about not allowing more than one +1 bonus to be added to the roll, does it?)

RAW you are correct
This would be a lot clearer if the rule stated "....the required UNMODIFIED dice roll can never be improved better than a 4+"
I'm going to assume that we Necron players will be sporting though, and that this thread is more to highlight the poor rule writing

That is wrong: you cant modify the logical value of the dice roll:

Every rule refernecing a better RP roll say something like:

have a Bonus of +1 for the Reanimation Protocol Roll

This does not say "increas the logical value of your rolled dice by one" it says "have a bonus". To determin in which way that bonus is handled we have to look to the RP rules themselfes:

Certain special rules and wargear items can provide modifiers to this dice roll; these are cumulative, [...]

This is sloppy formulated but says "if you modify the RP roll you actually modify the desired number" Why? Thats why:
RAW this modifiers could be applied to both either the rolled die or the number you need to roll. So which one to use?

but the required dice roll can necer be improved to be better than 4+

Correct wording on the technomancer rule is

[quoteThis model and all models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule in his unit receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls.

That's so silly.

DaPino wrote:
Correct wording on the technomancer rule is

This model and all models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule in his unit receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls.

It says "rollS", not Roll. It's plural, implying it's reffering to rolls made and not the required roll.

Or its just saying that this working for all the rolls you make. The bonus you get is still for every roll seperately but the way it is aplayed is badly worded but my proov that you have to modive the value you want to reach (scroll up) still holds. Tell me where that key of arguments is brocken and come back.

I have a feeling this may actually be the way they wanted it to work. I mean, if not and you can only ever have one +1 to your RP roll, what's the point of taking Crypteks or that super ResOrb? Logic would dictate that it's so you can stack those plus ones.
If you were only allowed a single bonus to the roll, it would probably have said that. Instead, it says you can't decrease the required number to succeed lower than a 4.

Regardless, I thought this book seemed pretty well written when it first came out in regards to rule interactions... a couple days later, I can see that, no, it's a fekking train wreck (do Wraiths assaulting through difficult terrain get reduced initiative, Praetorians not allowed in their own dedicated transport, is Gaze of Death usable while in CC, and of course, how do bonuses to RP actually work, etc.)
All we can do is pray to the Void Dragon that a FAQ comes soon...

The logic behind it would be that necron armies built with the FoC (as opposed to decurions) need a way to improve their RP. Crypteks and the Orb of Eternity allow for that.

+ I think cryptek + decurion - ID modifiers give a 4+ RP

Kangodo wrote:
Technically, yes.
I'm now thinking of some meme image:
"What GW thinks the rules do."
"What TO's think the rules do."
"What the rules actually do."

Don't forget:
"What the player thinks the rules do." =)

And perhaps "What his opponent thinks the the rules do"

Anyhow, until the FAQ comes, I'm gonna play it as all bonuses stack, together with the -1 modifier for insta death, but you never pass the roll on anything lower than a 4. That is the most logical interpretation, no matter what the rules actually do RAW...

jay_mo wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Technically, yes.
I'm now thinking of some meme image:
"What GW thinks the rules do."
"What TO's think the rules do."
"What the rules actually do."

Don't forget:
"What the player thinks the rules do." =)

And perhaps "What his opponent thinks the the rules do"

Anyhow, until the FAQ comes, I'm gonna play it as all bonuses stack, together with the -1 modifier for insta death, but you never pass the roll on anything lower than a 4. That is the most logical interpretation, no matter what the rules actually do RAW...

This. I wish everyone was as reasonable logic wise as what you just said. I know there will be necron players who argue tooth and nail raw, raw, raw all because it benifits them.

RP acting like FNP is IMO, stronger game wise than it used to be anyway, the only disadvantage from the previous method is where there were many wounds lost to empty wound pools. Simply moving the roll to before removal as a casualty means a model can succeed in multiple RP rolls against wounds where as before it would have only ever got one RP roll (minus SR re rolling etc).

Possibility of chain successes as opposed to only ever a singular roll to save a model is always going to be statistically better.

What is the problem with the new reanimation protocols? Can someone explain to me what's weird with the new rules.

Old RP was better in shooting because RP was taken at the end of the phase. So if you had 8 warriors knocked down waiting to take their RP (2 warriors from the unit hiding round the corner) no one else could shoot at them for the turn. WIth a res orb, four of them would get back up.

Now for shooting those same 8 warriors would take a wound after one enemy units shoots at them and four would survive. If they are engaged in shooting attacks by another enemy unit and they take between them 8 wounds then they make 4 saves and all die anyway.


In combat new RP is so much more powerful. At each inititive phase they get hit but more will survive as it's very difficult to over saturate wounds in the same way. Let's say the resolution of combat is eight wounds in the pool of 10 warriors. On average four will die... but six will get to fight at their ini step. Under old RP, only 2 would get to fight, and normally they'd be no RP save as they'd be swept up anyway.


Multi wond models get a huge bonus from the new rolls. In essence a tw-wound model gets twice as many saves as it used to against the same number of hits. Win.

Ffyllotek wrote:
Old RP was better in shooting because RP was taken at the end of the phase. So if you had 8 warriors knocked down waiting to take their RP (2 warriors from the unit hiding round the corner) no one else could shoot at them for the turn. WIth a res orb, four of them would get back up.

Now for shooting those same 8 warriors would take a wound after one enemy units shoots at them and four would survive. If they are engaged in shooting attacks by another enemy unit and they take between them 8 wounds then they make 4 saves and all die anyway.

Except that if the squad got wiped or failed its leadership test for 25+% casualties you didn't get to roll RP at all, and both were more common than situations in which a few models in the squad were out of LoS but everyone else got mowed down.

Ffyllotek wrote:
Old RP was better in shooting because RP was taken at the end of the phase. So if you had 8 warriors knocked down waiting to take their RP (2 warriors from the unit hiding round the corner) no one else could shoot at them for the turn. WIth a res orb, four of them would get back up.

As Galorian said, unless what i've underlined above was how you made sure you played your warriors, it very rarely happened.

jay_mo wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Technically, yes.
I'm now thinking of some meme image:
"What GW thinks the rules do."
"What TO's think the rules do."
"What the rules actually do."

Don't forget:
"What the player thinks the rules do." =)

And perhaps "What his opponent thinks the the rules do"

Anyhow, until the FAQ comes, I'm gonna play it as all bonuses stack, together with the -1 modifier for insta death, but you never pass the roll on anything lower than a 4. That is the most logical interpretation, no matter what the rules actually do RAW...

Well duuh, I don't think anyone would even dare to claim it.
The HIWPI is pretty unanimous, the issue is just that GW wrote rules that don't work. Not that this surprises anyone, because our favourite hobby is buying Citadel Models.

 Galorian wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:
Old RP was better in shooting because RP was taken at the end of the phase. So if you had 8 warriors knocked down waiting to take their RP (2 warriors from the unit hiding round the corner) no one else could shoot at them for the turn. WIth a res orb, four of them would get back up.

Now for shooting those same 8 warriors would take a wound after one enemy units shoots at them and four would survive. If they are engaged in shooting attacks by another enemy unit and they take between them 8 wounds then they make 4 saves and all die anyway.

Except that if the squad got wiped or failed its leadership test for 25+% casualties you didn't get to roll RP at all, and both were more common than situations in which a few models in the squad were out of LoS but everyone else got mowed down.

True. Though ever-living (with ghost arc replenishment) could combat that a bit.

Ffyllotek wrote:

 Galorian wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:
Old RP was better in shooting because RP was taken at the end of the phase. So if you had 8 warriors knocked down waiting to take their RP (2 warriors from the unit hiding round the corner) no one else could shoot at them for the turn. WIth a res orb, four of them would get back up.

Now for shooting those same 8 warriors would take a wound after one enemy units shoots at them and four would survive. If they are engaged in shooting attacks by another enemy unit and they take between them 8 wounds then they make 4 saves and all die anyway.

Except that if the squad got wiped or failed its leadership test for 25+% casualties you didn't get to roll RP at all, and both were more common than situations in which a few models in the squad were out of LoS but everyone else got mowed down.

True. Though ever-living (with ghost arc replenishment) could combat that a bit.

True, but now all characters are multi-wound models that benefit massively from the change regardless, and situations in which an Ever Living non-independent character model was the sole survivor of a Warriors squad that happened to have a functional Ghost Ark standing next to it are even rarer than the "out of LoS" example...

Actually there's another example of this in the game.

Nightmare Doll

The bearer of the Nightmare Doll adds 1 to any Feel No Pain rolls he makes. Furthermore, the Nightmare Doll automatically negates the first unsaved Wound with the Instant Death special rule that the bearer suffers, though as soon as it does so, the Nightmare Doll will immediately cease to work for the rest of the battle.


Cronos Spirit Probe

The model, and all friendly units with both the Dark Eldar Faction and the Feel No Pain special rule within 6" of one or more models with a spirit probe, receive a +1 bonus to their Feel No Pain (e.g. Feel No Pain would become Feel No Pain (4+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to Feel No Pain, but cannot improve their Feel No Pain beyond 4+.


Does a model that have FNP 5+ , pass the roll on a natural 3 if it is in range of a Cronos and has the Night Mare Doll?

100% Yes it does because Nightmare Doll is not improving it's FNP beyond a 4+ , it's FNP is a 4+ and it passes on a 3 because it adds one to the roll and that becomes a 4.

Basic Rule Book Modifiers

Modifiers
Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.), subtracting from it (–1, –2, etc.), multiplying it (×2, ×3, etc.) or even setting its value (1, 8, etc.). Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristics that can be raised above 10. A model’s Initiative cannot be modified below 1, and no other characteristic can be modified below 0.
Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4×2=8, 8+1=9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore +1 Strength and set it at 8).


Reanimation Protocol:

When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Reanimation Protocols roll to avoid being wounded. This is not a saving throw and so can be used against attacks that state ‘no saves of any kind are allowed’. Reanimation Protocols rolls may even be taken against hits with the Instant Death special rule, but cannot be used against hits from Destroyer weapons or any special rule or attack that states that the model is ‘removed from play’.

Roll a D6 each time the model suffers an unsaved Wound, subtracting 1 from the result if the hit that inflicted the Wound had the Instant Death special rule. On a 5+, discount the unsaved Wound – treat it as having been saved. Certain special rules and wargear items can provide modifiers to this dice roll ; these are cumulative, but the required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+.


Technomancer:

Technomancer: This model and all models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule in his unit receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls.

Decurion Legion :

COMMAND BENEFITS:
Ever-living: Models in this Detachment with the Reanimation Protocols special rule receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls. Models in this Detachment with the Living Metal rule ignore the effects of Crew Stunned and Crew Shaken (but still lose a Hull Point)



These are not the same at all. They all modify the Dice Roll not the modifier itself, [/b] Reanimation Protocols, never changes from a 5+ , ever nothing changes this what changes is the modifiers to the dice roll and it specifically states that the modifiers can not make the dice roll better than a 4+ [/b]

So yeah it's not the same situation at all.

Hollismason wrote:
Reanimation Protocol:

When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Reanimation Protocols roll to avoid being wounded. This is not a saving throw and so can be used against attacks that state ‘no saves of any kind are allowed’. Reanimation Protocols rolls may even be taken against hits with the Instant Death special rule, but cannot be used against hits from Destroyer weapons or any special rule or attack that states that the model is ‘removed from play’.

Roll a D6 each time the model suffers an unsaved Wound, subtracting 1 from the result if the hit that inflicted the Wound had the Instant Death special rule. On a 5+, discount the unsaved Wound – treat it as having been saved. Certain special rules and wargear items can provide modifiers to this dice roll ; these are cumulative, but the required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+.

Ah, cool, that about settles it, then.

In the Marine Corps we have a term for people who debate the RAW versus the RAI. Sea Lawyers, and just like in the Marine Corps, it drives everyone nuts!

We all know what GW was trying to do but we will continue to debate it in the hopes of slightly breaking their game a bit more :-P

 Ghazkuul wrote:
We all know what GW was trying to do...

GW has proven time and again that when we think we know what they're trying to do they go and prove us wrong...

It's pretty clear, there's one specific situation that is similar but the language for it is completely different as I illustrated.

Hollismason wrote:
Actually there's another example of this in the game.

Spoiler:

Nightmare Doll

The bearer of the Nightmare Doll adds 1 to any Feel No Pain rolls he makes. Furthermore, the Nightmare Doll automatically negates the first unsaved Wound with the Instant Death special rule that the bearer suffers, though as soon as it does so, the Nightmare Doll will immediately cease to work for the rest of the battle.


Cronos Spirit Probe

The model, and all friendly units with both the Dark Eldar Faction and the Feel No Pain special rule within 6" of one or more models with a spirit probe, receive a +1 bonus to their Feel No Pain (e.g. Feel No Pain would become Feel No Pain (4+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to Feel No Pain, but cannot improve their Feel No Pain beyond 4+.


Does a model that have FNP 5+ , pass the roll on a natural 3 if it is in range of a Cronos and has the Night Mare Doll?

100% Yes it does because Nightmare Doll is not improving it's FNP beyond a 4+ , it's FNP is a 4+ and it passes on a 3 because it adds one to the roll and that becomes a 4.

Basic Rule Book Modifiers

Modifiers
Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.), subtracting from it (–1, –2, etc.), multiplying it (×2, ×3, etc.) or even setting its value (1, 8, etc.). Attacks and Wounds are the only characteristics that can be raised above 10. A model’s Initiative cannot be modified below 1, and no other characteristic can be modified below 0.
Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4×2=8, 8+1=9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore +1 Strength and set it at 8).

If you go this faar arguing RaW then please note that the above rule is talking about "model’s characteristics", not special rules. So it has no effekt on RP.

Reanimation Protocol:

When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Reanimation Protocols roll to avoid being wounded. This is not a saving throw and so can be used against attacks that state ‘no saves of any kind are allowed’. Reanimation Protocols rolls may even be taken against hits with the Instant Death special rule, but cannot be used against hits from Destroyer weapons or any special rule or attack that states that the model is ‘removed from play’.

Roll a D6 each time the model suffers an unsaved Wound, subtracting 1 from the result if the hit that inflicted the Wound had the Instant Death special rule. On a 5+, discount the unsaved Wound – treat it as having been saved. Certain special rules and wargear items can provide modifiers to this dice roll ; these are cumulative, but the required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+.


Technomancer:

Technomancer: This model and all models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule in his unit receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls.

Decurion Legion :

COMMAND BENEFITS:
Ever-living: Models in this Detachment with the Reanimation Protocols special rule receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls. Models in this Detachment with the Living Metal rule ignore the effects of Crew Stunned and Crew Shaken (but still lose a Hull Point)



These are not the same at all. They all modify the Dice Roll not the modifier itself, [/b] Reanimation Protocols, never changes from a 5+ , ever nothing changes this what changes is the modifiers to the dice roll and it specifically states that the modifiers can not make the dice roll better than a 4+ [/b]

So yeah it's not the same situation at all.

with the exact rules you are quoting i do the following:
Proposition 1: The RP rule only allows the required number to be changed if its not for ID.
Proove:
RP is no characteristic of a modell - it is a special rule so all its belonging has to follow explicit rules. Therfore the only way to modify a RP roll (or its needed value) is per the RP rule itselfe. It allows this by saying:

Certain special rules and wargear items can provide modifiers to this dice roll

This means we do have the possibility to change something belonging to the dice roll. Which one? The logical value of the dice or the value needed to pass the RP test? Read a bit further:

these are cumulative, but the required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+

This clearly states that the thing that gets modfied is "the required dice roll".
Only exception from this is against ID wounds - how these are handled is described within the RP rules itselfe so is inside that element that can tell you direcly what has to happen without needing another rule.
Nothing else is specified in the RP rules themselfes.
Q.E.D

Proposition 2: the other rules changing RP rolls dont break proposition 1
Proove:
All the rules that change RP "from the outside" (so are not due to ID (which is handled elsewhere)) have the exact wording:

receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls

This is only an unspecific bonus that does not say anything about how its applayed but has to follow the RP rule (see above). Otherwise we needed a role that stated exactly what a "bonus" is. But: Looking to proposition 1 we can determin how this bonus should work: it improoves the required roll for RP. And pls dont get confused with math here - GW never applayed correct math with their modfires and the signum of the change. The +1 is to be seen as improoving thus "making better" the requried part of a dice roll and is thus positive to refer to it as positive effekt. Since this is done in the BRB and several codices several times it is not a strict rule but a common concept. If we wouldnt applay it here it would leed to a reductio ad absurdum because then we would make RP worse in cases where it is obvious (and even stated) to be a positive bonus.
Q.E.D.

I think i've finally got what the argument is... -_-"

Side A: Rules that give Reanimation Protocols bonuses add value to a dice thrown, with RP still only passing on a 5+

Side B: The rules that give RP bonuses modify the required roll, up to a 4+ because the roll cannot be better.

So when i roll a RP with 3 bonuses, and i roll a 3:
-Side A says i rolled a 3+3 so i actually rolled a 6: Passed the RP
-Side B says i rolled a 3 but a 5-3 = 2+, but a 4 is the lowest that is needed: I failed my RP.

Right?

 BlackTalos wrote:
I think i've finally got what the argument is... -_-"

Side A: Rules that give Reanimation Protocols bonuses add value to a dice thrown, with RP still only passing on a 5+

Side B: The rules that give RP bonuses modify the required roll, up to a 4+ because the roll cannot be better.

So when i roll a RP with 3 bonuses, and i roll a 3:
-Side A says i rolled a 3+3 so i actually rolled a 6: Passed the RP
-Side B says i rolled a 3 but a 5-3 = 2+, but a 4 is the lowest that is needed: I failed my RP.

Right?

This is correct.

My analysis of RaW tells me that Side A is technically correct... BUT I think that GW would Errata this thing in a heartbeat (if they actually issued timely and comprehensive FAQs) to make anything less than a natural 4+ a failure. I know we can never truly know RaI, but it seems pretty damned clear in this instance.

Same as many other things on this forum... work it out with your friends, but don't expect strangers or tournaments to be all right with a 2+ RP roll. It may technically follow the letter of the rules, but it's taking a crap on the spirit.

 BlackTalos wrote:
I think i've finally got what the argument is... -_-"

Side A: Rules that give Reanimation Protocols bonuses add value to a dice thrown, with RP still only passing on a 5+

Side B: The rules that give RP bonuses modify the required roll, up to a 4+ because the roll cannot be better.

So when i roll a RP with 3 bonuses, and i roll a 3:
-Side A says i rolled a 3+3 so i actually rolled a 6: Passed the RP
-Side B says i rolled a 3 but a 5-3 = 2+, but a 4 is the lowest that is needed: I failed my RP.

Right?

Yes.

And then there is also a pessimistic Side C, that says if the value is ever under 4 the bonus is dropped. So lets say I have 1 cryptek + Ever-living:

5+ is my original value
4+ is my modified value with the cryptek
4+ is still my modified value with Ever-living (since it can never be better)
Instant death wounds removes 1 from the roll -> you need a 5 to pass an ID wound, no matter how many bonuses you have =)

This was actually how I understood it the first time I read the rule (I thought the +1's modified the value of the (not a) save while the -1 modified the actual roll) but after reading the rules for bonuses in the BRB I decided Side B makes the most sense imo, while Side A may have a point RAW.

 Kriswall wrote:




My analysis of RaW tells me that Side A is technically correct...

It thats true my argument (see above) has to be wrong, can you tell me where i made a mistake?