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 ThePrimordial wrote:
My point was that a marine will fething destroy an Eldar in combat. Or 2 or 3. Maybe not 4.
Due to being genuinely better fighters on top of being dramatically stronger and tougher.
The Eldar still look at them as inferior. Somehow.

Well, an Orang Utan would utterly destroy you, me and everyone else on this board in combat. We still do not see these apes as our equals.

*edit* unarmed combat. You didn't think about hurting that poor, cuddly animal with a weapon, did you? Savage!

 ThePrimordial wrote:
My point was that a marine will fething destroy an Eldar in combat. Or 2 or 3. Maybe not 4.
Due to being genuinely better fighters on top of being dramatically stronger and tougher.
The Eldar still look at them as inferior. Somehow.

Depends on the Eldar. Exarchs are more then a match for the average Battle-Brother, and Aspects such as the Scorpions or Banshees can hold their own well. But against Guardians? Those guys are just a civilian militia and are going to get slaughtered.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
My point was that a marine will fething destroy an Eldar in combat. Or 2 or 3. Maybe not 4.
Due to being genuinely better fighters on top of being dramatically stronger and tougher.
The Eldar still look at them as inferior. Somehow.

Depends on the Eldar. Exarchs are more then a match for the average Battle-Brother, and Aspects such as the Scorpions or Banshees can hold their own well. But against Guardians? Those guys are just a civilian militia and are going to get slaughtered.

Depends on if they're armed too. Unarmed the marine will tear them apart.

And when are they ever going to be unarmed?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
My point was that a marine will fething destroy an Eldar in combat. Or 2 or 3. Maybe not 4.
Due to being genuinely better fighters on top of being dramatically stronger and tougher.
The Eldar still look at them as inferior. Somehow.

Depends on the Eldar. Exarchs are more then a match for the average Battle-Brother, and Aspects such as the Scorpions or Banshees can hold their own well. But against Guardians? Those guys are just a civilian militia and are going to get slaughtered.

As I see it, Aspect Warriors are about on par or slightly below Tacticals in average combat ability, taking into account all factors. Guardians are firmly below. Exarchs are firmly above.

A fight between a Banshee and a Tactical is going to be an interesting one - if the Marine can land a blow despite their insane speed he will tear the Banshee apart like paper, while the Eldar has to resort to death by a thousand cuts.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
My point was that a marine will fething destroy an Eldar in combat. Or 2 or 3. Maybe not 4.
Due to being genuinely better fighters on top of being dramatically stronger and tougher.
The Eldar still look at them as inferior. Somehow.

Depends on the Eldar. Exarchs are more then a match for the average Battle-Brother, and Aspects such as the Scorpions or Banshees can hold their own well. But against Guardians? Those guys are just a civilian militia and are going to get slaughtered.

As I see it, Aspect Warriors are about on par or slightly below Tacticals in average combat ability, taking into account all factors. Guardians are firmly below. Exarchs are firmly above.

A fight between a Banshee and a Tactical is going to be an interesting one - if the Marine can land a blow despite their insane speed he will tear the Banshee apart like paper, while the Eldar has to resort to death by a thousand cuts.

Banshees carry power weapons. That isn't death of a thousand cuts, that's "I bisect you from head to groin".

Banshees do have power weapons IIRC. So it won't be that hard.

Well yes, but he's still going to do more damage to her than she will to him.

Power weapons are power weapons, but strength is still a factor with them. The power field just destabilises the target, it's the blade (and your arm behind it) that actually cuts through.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
My point was that a marine will fething destroy an Eldar in combat.

This alone proves why eldars rightfully view humans as savages. The question was how eldar percieve marines/humans. Not who kills whom first.

 Keep wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
My point was that a marine will fething destroy an Eldar in combat.

This alone proves why eldars rightfully view humans as savages. The question was how eldar percieve marines/humans. Not who kills whom first.

Considering the Eldar are a warrior cult, they should respect those of greater average prowess.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Considering the Eldar are a warrior cult, they should respect those of greater average prowess.

Not if they find their motives completely pointless / stupid.
Do you respect loyalty? Do you respect extremely loyal warriors? Would you also respect them if they do horrible things (ISIS)?

Let me elaborate:
Marines (a creature built to fight in all aspects considered inferior) will mop the floor with an aspect warrior (a warrior who has given his life to one aspect of fighting) in almost every way in a fight.
How would a banshee fare against a Khorne Berserker?
How would any exarch fare against Smashf*****?
That banshee would have its pansy skull on the skull throne faster than you can blink, and that exarch would instantly be a stain.

 Keep wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Considering the Eldar are a warrior cult, they should respect those of greater average prowess.

Not if they find their motives completely pointless / stupid.
Do you respect loyalty? Do you respect extremely loyal warriors? Would you also respect them if they do horrible things (ISIS)?

I would hold a grudging respect for ISIS if they actually were half decent soldiers. Compared to the military of my nation or those of our allies however.... their abilities are fairly lack luster.

I would say that the quote from Thirianna from page one really sums it up. They fear, loath and pity them because they are monsters and nothing more.

@ThePrimordial

I would strongly disagree with you on every point. Here would be my explaination.

Typical marine is slower and not has well trained has your typical Aspect Warrior (Guardians would be indeed much weaker). Eldar are far smarter than humen and Space Marines, they learn much faster then they do and when they train it's with an obsession far greater than that of the the most OCD person imaginable. They also train for centuries while a Space Marine will only have a «few» decades.

Space Marine spend their shorter amount of time training in a variety of ways instead of focusing on a single aspect. So a Space Marine trains for 50 years in five different disciplines with 8 different weapons that he must all master will be oposed to an Aspect Warrior with three times more training in a single discipline with maybe two weapons to master. So when he engages the Aspect Warrior on a it's field he is completly outclass. His only chance to win is to fight the Aspect Warrior (completly specialised) in a field where he isn't trained and thus quick his ass.

For your exemple of how would a banshee could kill a single Khorn berserker, here is what he or she would do. She would run faster than the Space Marine can see (she can do that Eldar are much faster than Space Marines especially banshees), than would scream when she is a few meters away which causes complete paralysis for a few seconds. Since he can't move, it's like killing a unarmed, untrained child. She uses a power sword as light as a feather that mocks his armor defence and cut of his head. Cutting of a head is very easy I can do it and I got only a single year of kenjustsu of background so a century trained super soldier can do it without a doubt. In fact a ordinary banshee could kill Kharn just has easily has a guardsmen because paralysed Kharn isn't that dangerous. If the banshee can't scream for a special reason, she still is twice faster and with a power sword that can cut throught his chain axe without problem and chop his hand off in split second.

Eldar are faster than Guardsmen can follow. That is why it is so difficult for the Guard to fight Eldar directly.

Space Marines are very different. They are fully capable of following an Eldar in motion (although hitting them while they are trying to dodge is a different matter) and Space Marines are also far more resistant to the banshee mask thanks to the Lyman's Ear. The helmet helps as well.

You people and your fast-as-a-blur Space Marines. Back in my day, we had Terminators that could do backflips and Space Marines carried Multilasers from Chimeras! And scouts could eat people's brains to learn how they piloted titans and everything else! It was a glorious time or pure logic-hating lore.

 Accolade wrote:
You people and your fast-as-a-blur Space Marines. Back in my day, we had Terminators that could do backflips and Space Marines carried Multilasers from Chimeras! And scouts could eat people's brains to learn how they piloted titans and everything else! It was a glorious time or pure logic-hating lore.

Thankfully C.S. Goto no longer writes for GW, especially after seemingly never failing to maul the Eldar.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
You people and your fast-as-a-blur Space Marines. Back in my day, we had Terminators that could do backflips and Space Marines carried Multilasers from Chimeras! And scouts could eat people's brains to learn how they piloted titans and everything else! It was a glorious time or pure logic-hating lore.

Thankfully C.S. Goto no longer writes for GW, especially after seemingly never failing to maul the Eldar.

That is a good thing. Now they just have to fire Kelly and Cruddace as well.

To view someone as a "lesser being" is not a question of combat or tactics, at least not only that.

I think that the Eldar views of space marines is more on a cultural or ideological level.

@Ashiraya

Actualy they are even more vulnerable because of it. Their special ear can make them more prone to suffer from certain sonic attack like the harpy wail and the banshee mask while protecting them from sonic blasts like artillery shell. Their ear is design to prevent them from bursting their inner ear and better analyse sound but not to protect them from them. Plus, the banshee mask iss a weird thing it's both a psychic and a sonic effect. Space Marine are little bit more resistent than guardsmen because they have very little chance of actualy being killed by the banshee mask (a thing that can also happen) but it still paralyse them very reliably. It even works on necron like litchguards.

It's a big eldar irony. Banshees are probably the most OP unit they got in the fluff, but their worst by far in their codex. It's a bit like terminator I guess.

Has for all Eldar judge people Forcemajeure is right. They judge people by their soul (they are psychic after all) more than by their apperance and skills. When you read Path of the Eldar, they spend more time talking about how they feel things then how they act. It's how Thirianna perceive Space Marines first has some sort of alien Exarchs, but with even less pride for they had no choice in the matter.

Explain an Incubi meeting any average marine? Quite frankly they're fundamentally an Aspect warrior if but not in name. An incubi is likely to tear apart any other Aspect Warrior, they don't care if you're a Marine, not many front line troops can stand up to an Incubi without being torn down like the ape they are.

Fluffwise, should be somewhere between a Scorpion and a Banshee. Better swordsmen than an assassin/ninja aspect (Scorpion), and more an assassin than the Swordsmen aspect (banshees).

They are effectively an aspect, although I doubt they actually have Exarchs.

Fluffwise:
They should be nearly on par with Banshees for swordsmanship, a little above scorpions. Banshees are more focused on this.
They should be ever so slightly faster than Scorpions, as Scorpions are more stealth specialist, which calls for waiting for the time to strike. But Banshees strike like the wind, and wear lighter armor. Its what they train for. So they should be (imperceptibly) slightly faster/agile.

Crunch wise, Incubi have better stats. Dark Eldar are stupid like that. Did you know some random no-name Archon is, crunch wise, just as skilled and fast as Jain Zar, Baharoth, etc? Same stat line. Because screw craftworlders who arent Davu oe Wraiths? But from a fluff perspective, there should be no comparison.

As for unarmed/unarmored. An unarmored Exarch isn't. They are their armor. Unarmed maybe, but it'd a very unlikely situation.

A klaivex is affectively their Exarch. It's with noting that Incubi are +1 weapon skill and hunt Aspect Warriors as a right of passage. When it comes down to it,, incubi should always slaughter marines.

NauticalKendall wrote:
A klaivex is affectively their Exarch. It's with noting that Incubi are +1 weapon skill and hunt Aspect Warriors as a right of passage. When it comes down to it,, incubi should always slaughter marines.

No, they should not. Game mechanics are irrelevant and the final trial of the Incubus, to defeat an Aspect Warrior in single combat, does not mean that those who succeed are somehow godlike. The final trial of the GK Paladin is to hunt down one of the 666 mightiest Daemons to exist, without armour no less, yet I do not see anyone arguing that GK Paladins should slaughter greater Daemons.

They are good, but they are not going to be 'slaughtering' any Marines who still have their wits about them.

You guys need to understand that each Eldar Aspect is a specialization. If a Space Marine faces off with an Eldar Aspect Warrior when he's in his element, then the Astartes will get curbstomped. If they face off outside of the Eldar's element, then -unless the Eldar has previously worked on other paths that specialize in that other element- then the Eldar will get curbstomped. The Aspect Warriors are specialists, Space Marine are generalists. Space Marines are great all-around, while Aspect Warriors are fething amazing in one area and meh in the rest.


As far as Eldar looking down on Space Marines, a Gorilla can rip you in half without trying, but a Gorilla is still a lesser being, no?

Hey guys! Did anyone mention gorilas?

The SS viewed the Russians as sub-humans. I don't remember the Germans taking Moscow, though the Russians did take Berlin. There is often a gulf between a group's esteem of another group and the fighting prowess or other qualities of the disparaged group. To the Eldar worldview, the Humans seem brutish and simple, and to an Eldar mind the the Humans do lack "civilization". But the Human galaxy-empire hasn't collapsed (yet) spawning a new Chaos god.

"The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude." - Uthan the Perverse

When I read someone reference their personal beheading training I realized this thread was in trouble.

To be fair it takes no little to no training to cut off a head. I use a chainsaw, and lettuce doesn't even run away!

 brendan wrote:
When I read someone reference their personal beheading training I realized this thread was in trouble.

Wait that's glorious!
I must have missed that, can you quote that back to me?