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 SweaterKittens wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I do have to agree that wyches benefit from patience. The Power From Pain chart does seem like it was aimed right at the Wyches really.

Reserve Manipulation isnt expensive though. An Autarch and a couple Jetbike uits can do a LOT for your strategic outlook if assaulting with them is your goal.

I plan on taking an Autarch for my Null Deployment, but unfortunately, beyond that, there's not a whole lot available for reserve manipulation. If you go the route of late-game Wyches, I think you really need to have good control over when your reserves come in. It's unfortunate that Labyrinthine Cunning is random and not something you can choose. Other than an Aegis with a comms relay (which would be pretty worthless outside of the reserve re-rolls), I think that's all DE/Eldar/Corsairs have in the way of it.

Aegis PLus Autarch is pretty much as good as it gets though.

 Jancoran wrote:

 SweaterKittens wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I do have to agree that wyches benefit from patience. The Power From Pain chart does seem like it was aimed right at the Wyches really.

Reserve Manipulation isnt expensive though. An Autarch and a couple Jetbike uits can do a LOT for your strategic outlook if assaulting with them is your goal.

I plan on taking an Autarch for my Null Deployment, but unfortunately, beyond that, there's not a whole lot available for reserve manipulation. If you go the route of late-game Wyches, I think you really need to have good control over when your reserves come in. It's unfortunate that Labyrinthine Cunning is random and not something you can choose. Other than an Aegis with a comms relay (which would be pretty worthless outside of the reserve re-rolls), I think that's all DE/Eldar/Corsairs have in the way of it.

Aegis PLus Autarch is pretty much as good as it gets though.

Ha yeah seeing that you are only rolling for reserves on turns 2 and 3 you could go 18 games before failing a reserve roll.

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 SweaterKittens wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I do have to agree that wyches benefit from patience. The Power From Pain chart does seem like it was aimed right at the Wyches really.

Reserve Manipulation isnt expensive though. An Autarch and a couple Jetbike uits can do a LOT for your strategic outlook if assaulting with them is your goal.

I plan on taking an Autarch for my Null Deployment, but unfortunately, beyond that, there's not a whole lot available for reserve manipulation. If you go the route of late-game Wyches, I think you really need to have good control over when your reserves come in. It's unfortunate that Labyrinthine Cunning is random and not something you can choose. Other than an Aegis with a comms relay (which would be pretty worthless outside of the reserve re-rolls), I think that's all DE/Eldar/Corsairs have in the way of it.

Aegis PLus Autarch is pretty much as good as it gets though.

Ha yeah seeing that you are only rolling for reserves on turns 2 and 3 you could go 18 games before failing a reserve roll.

True, but the advantage of re-roll plus +1/-1 is not just in the ability to succeed your rolls, but also to reroll/add the -1 so that you can keep things out that you don't want to come in. The Aegis is great but it's a bunch of extra points that a Warlord trait can replace. Unfortunately, it's random, which is really frustrating.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How to make assault work:

1. Needs a 12'' move.
2. Needs a 2+sv or a decent invuln or invisibility.
3. Needs rending or AP2.

Fulfill stipulation #1 and at least 2 or 3, and you have yourself a working assault unit.

Anything less will probably work in a casual game but won't be competitive.

The only thing Id add to that is #2 isn't true if your points per wound was super low and you had allot of attacks (but you would definitely still need rending). Something like a scarab unit but slightly cheaper and that was not a swarm.

Thing is, the most resilient units are either already relatively cheap, and their strong defence just magnifies that.

The truly ridiculous ones (2+ save with a re-roll) make 1pt marines look expensive.

Put another way: I'd rather you shoot at my 40pt. Terminators, than my 10pt. Wyches. Once in melee, Wyches are ok-tough-for-their-points, but getting there? They're glass cannons, but the cannon-half is missing. If they had that Dodge 4++ all the time, I might reconsider. If they were 5pts, same.

As it stands - if you like the Wytch model and assault-y tactics... I'd start running them as Counts-as. Probably Daemons. Daemonettes are 9-pt Wytches with a always-on 5++ and Rending, and your HQ can "open webway portals" to summon more.

 SweaterKittens wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 SweaterKittens wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I do have to agree that wyches benefit from patience. The Power From Pain chart does seem like it was aimed right at the Wyches really.

Reserve Manipulation isnt expensive though. An Autarch and a couple Jetbike uits can do a LOT for your strategic outlook if assaulting with them is your goal.

I plan on taking an Autarch for my Null Deployment, but unfortunately, beyond that, there's not a whole lot available for reserve manipulation. If you go the route of late-game Wyches, I think you really need to have good control over when your reserves come in. It's unfortunate that Labyrinthine Cunning is random and not something you can choose. Other than an Aegis with a comms relay (which would be pretty worthless outside of the reserve re-rolls), I think that's all DE/Eldar/Corsairs have in the way of it.

Aegis PLus Autarch is pretty much as good as it gets though.

Ha yeah seeing that you are only rolling for reserves on turns 2 and 3 you could go 18 games before failing a reserve roll.

True, but the advantage of re-roll plus +1/-1 is not just in the ability to succeed your rolls, but also to reroll/add the -1 so that you can keep things out that you don't want to come in. The Aegis is great but it's a bunch of extra points that a Warlord trait can replace. Unfortunately, it's random, which is really frustrating.

That was really my point: it gives you as good a control as you can ask for AND I have always strategized with the idea in mind that I will probably want to come in a little later when the enemy firepower is whittled a bit, If i am to be successful in using melee. Blowing units off the table doesnt entirely define succes for close combat. Just keeping the enemy in place is as valuable as any result at times.

caelim wrote:
Thing is, the most resilient units are either already relatively cheap, and their strong defence just magnifies that.

The truly ridiculous ones (2+ save with a re-roll) make 1pt marines look expensive.

Put another way: I'd rather you shoot at my 40pt. Terminators, than my 10pt. Wyches. Once in melee, Wyches are ok-tough-for-their-points, but getting there? They're glass cannons, but the cannon-half is missing. If they had that Dodge 4++ all the time, I might reconsider. If they were 5pts, same.

As it stands - if you like the Wytch model and assault-y tactics... I'd start running them as Counts-as. Probably Daemons. Daemonettes are 9-pt Wytches with a always-on 5++ and Rending, and your HQ can "open webway portals" to summon more.

It's funny you'd mention counts-as. I love my Wyches, and I will continue to run them as delivery and tarpits, but I think I'm going to really flesh out my force with Harlequins and Grotesques as the main ones. I'm going to see about 'upgrading' some Wych models, making them look a little more menacing, give them some special colours, etc. Use them as a Wych 'elite', sort of thing. Harlies are a lot more potent and I can see them getting some more use in assault.

For the hell of I ran the math, cuz that's just the way I roll, and at the 5+ FNP/Furious Charge level Wyches easily defeat equal points worth of MEQ on the charge and continue to hold their own thereafter.

This is without possible combat drug effects or wych weapons factored into the equation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bloodbrides slaugher them.

When I run wyches, I give them a raider with aether sails and start them in reserve. I never start them on the board.

I normally like to go second. This means if they come in turn 2 my opponent will only be able to shoot them on his turn 3 (meaning they will have FNP 5+). This goes a long way to making them more survivable.