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Hey all,

Let me open with these few disclaimers: Yes, I know assault is not as strong as shooting in this edition. No, focusing on an assault-based army is not going to be as viable. And lastly, no, we won't suddenly uncover something in this thread that will somehow change the entire meta.

With that being said, I'd like to have a productive discussion on how to make the most out of assault/CQC-oriented troops (such as Wyches, melee HQ's), and making the most out of positioning and the assault phase in general. The reason I bring this up is that I've always had a soft spot for Wych Cults, and with recent addition of the Solitaire (who's rules are meds) and the gorgeous Succubus model (my hands are tied, I have to run her), I find myself using assault troops fairly often, yet being rather unsure of the best way to use them. Additionally, it appears that the meta in my FLGS is rather melee-centric. That is, four out of five times, the other guy has brought a prominent assault unit, generally featuring his HQ. Memorable choices include Corvidae in a squad of souped-up assault marines, Dark Angels bikers with hammers, assault marines with hammers, Dark Angels Assault Terminators, etc. So it seems that whether I want to make it happen or not (I do), it's going to happen.


Thus far, the only real piece of tactica I've taken away from my games is to make sure your HQ is in enough coherency to LoS several wounds to whatever delivery squad he/she is with, and pile-in in such a way that, if possible, the wounds can be allocated directly to less important squad members. Unfortunately, as I'm rather fresh to the tabletop, that's all I've been able to glean thus far. I will be looking forward to hearing my fellow Dakkite's thoughts!

The two main concerns for making assault work are Delivery, Resiliency, and Reliability. Imperial Knights ace all three, so I'll be considering them as the "standard".

The best unit profile in the game won't do you any good if you can't actually get into combat. You open up the game with 24"-48" to cover, and your targets [likely] aren't standing still. A Knight is always advancing 12" towards the enemy every turn (~10" through terrain). He's surrounded by an enormous 18-24" denial zone - saying, "You end your turn within this bubble, and I'll smash your face in." That's huge, and is the key element to a successful assault.

Assault units threaten gunlines, saying, "If I can get close, I make your guns completely useless." So they are GOING to get shot at. The top tier Wave Serpent / Tau Firebase lists can shoot down a Knight in one turn... which is a good thing, because the second one is going to smash their guns into splinters. Can your assault unit survive the firepower you're running into? If it is depending on an assault transport to give it the speed it needs to catch your opponent, how likely are your transports to survive long enough to do their job? Wytches sound like they've got access to assault transports, but what happens when that Sicaran in the opponent's backfield slags it turn 1, leaving them to slowly meander across the board on foot?
Equally importantly, what happens when you get into combat? Fancy weapons are nice, but even Tau will land a few punches. Does your assault squad lose most of its punch after a quick skirmish, or is it tough enough to fight one battle after another?

Reliability is a little simpler. Is there anything that just completely shuts you down? It would suck if your awesome assault unit got caught by something you just can't hurt. Death Company get into a fight with an AV13 walker? Better hope you've got a powerfist or two. Wyches get counter-charged by a Wraithlord? They might be there a while... Lychguard with their fancy AP2 Armourbane scythes might succumb to the sheer weight of a tide of 50 conscripts...

Because Assault is already a step down from shooting, the units you use have to have that 'something special' that breaks the mold. I love Assault. I've always loved assault and I always will. But, understand that what might have been good assault units once are not anymore. Wyches, Genestealers, Howling Banshees, they all fail for a very specific reason. They don't have the numbers that allow them to take the sort of loses they are GOING to take because they have no real armor to speak of.

The way around this isn't easy. There are small solutions like Transports, Deep Strike, Infiltrate and Stealth/Shrouded but all of these have a hard counter. Infiltrate and Deep Strike mean a turn of taking shots to the face while Transports have to survive and Stealth/Shrouded doesn't do diddly against all the Ignores Cover out there.

Other solutions are to use units that don't have those drawbacks. Death Company for instance. 3+ Armor, high volume of powerful attacks, Mobility with Jump Packs and a spare dice roll to survive things because of Feel no Pain. Wraiths have the 3++ and 12" movement through any terrain and charge through terrain without penalty at Initiative 5 using whips. These are the gold standard right now as far as I know. But that's two armies of a whole bunch that have access to these units.

So the only way I have been able to assault with not-Blood Angels (don't play as Necrons) is to double up every Assault unit I try. I have the Children of Cryptus Genestealers, then I have a blob of Hormagaunts ahead of it to be annoying. I want a Carnifex to charge a tank, I have twin 6 Wound creatures behind it being more menacing. Or, I give my unit that 'something else' that it needs. Giving Feel no Pain to Vanguard Veterans by way of a Sanguinary Priest or Shrouding the Children (who have Stealth too) with a Venomthrope, or casting Invisibility or Shrouded, depending on the psychic roll, on my Reavers with an Allied Eldar Farseer.

Other popular methods are adding Storm Shields to a few guys and tanking that AP2 on the chin with a 3++. Jink saves are nice but that's also Cover. Psychic invulnerable saves with Fire Shield or other powers help.

The Dark Eldar, no matter how you might be against the idea, have access to Eldar allies. 9 Wyches and a Spiritseer in a Raider is still 9 Wyches in a Raider. But they have a chance to roll on Telepathy and for sure get Conceal/Reveal Shrouded from the Runes of Battle doctrine. Farseer can try for more.

Basically, an assault unit, with some exceptions, can't function alone. It needs support from other things to get into position, attack from that position and survive long enough to do so with minimal loses. Your army has to be separated into two categories. Assault and the units helping that, and anti-tank. Everything else is just taking away from those two ideas and the army as a whole won't be as effective and any Assault you try to do is just going to be a waste of a unit and points.

With regard to Wyches, the problem isn't the assault rules - it's the fact that they're a badly-designed unit.

An assault unit, as a general rule, needs 3 things:
- Speed (it needs to get across the table as fast as possible)
- Durability (it needs to survive both enemy shooting and enemy attacks in combat)
- Damage (it needs to hit really hard in combat - if it doesn't, then why are you even using it?)

Let's take a current example that fits all 3 - TWC.
- Speed: They're beasts and so move 12" with Fleet
- Durability: T5, 2 wounds apiece, 3+ save and can take storm shields. Yep.
- Damage: Even before upgrades, they have 5-6 S5 Rending attacks each on the charge.


Now, let's look at Wyches:
- Speed: Well, on their own, all they have going for them is Fleet, but they can access Raiders so we'll give them this.
- Durability: Oh dear. In combat, they're durability is tolerable against elite units (with a 4++), but they're still T3 so it isn't hard to put wounds on them. Furthermore, outside of combat - including overwatch - they're T3 with a negligible armour save.
- Damage: S3, need I say more? No poison, rending, shred or any other rules to make them even remotely threatening.

Wyches are bizarre in that they appear to be some sort of 'elite tarpit'. They're more expensive than Warriors, and yet their main attribute seems to be a 4++ in combat, rather than any offensive capabilities.

Thanks for the well-written and informative responses, guys!

I really like the three component breakdown, Caelim. I think that's an excellent 'checklist' that you could use for each unit. Since I play Dark Eldar currently, and since Wyches are considered one of the worst choices in the army, I'll use them as a model to work from - since if we can make Wyches work, well then damn, we can make anything work.

So first, Delivery. This is something that Dark Eldar have no problem with, as the army is full of assault transports. Frankly, with the way Deep Strike works, it almost seems worthless to consider it as a delivery option. You're going to be shot to pieces bar-none the moment you drop in in assault range. Unless you can DS behind some LOS-blocking terrain, but then you have to contend with the fact that if you DS within your own threat range, they can just as easily move away or move closer and blow you to bits. So I'd DS is mostly out of the question for Delivery, for most armies. I think you could potentially DS units in an assault transport, and just jink like your life depends on it, but you risk the chance of the vehicle being wrecked/exploding and completely ruining whatever units were inside it. So my consensus for Delivery is that you'll have to rely heavily on assault transports and cover.

Resiliency. This is something that is never used in the same sentence as DE unless the words "don't have any" are between the two. And that's true for a lot of assault troops. Hormagaunts come to mind. And several flavors of melee HQ. Which means that if we want to make an assault unit like that work, we'd have to figure out how to avoid the firepower as opposed to survive it. Because that just isn't going to happen. Again, I think the only thing is careful positioning, flanking tactics, and LOS blocking terrain. It ties into Delivery in the sense that, if I have to spend only one turn moving, that's only one turn I have to worry about being shot to pieces. I think what Sharkoutfowata said ties into this really well also. Running an assault-heavy army, unlike a shooty army, really has to be built around the core concept of getting your assault units into CQC. So target saturation becomes one strategy, I think. Even if they have a clear shot, they're not going to take down every Venom/Raider if there's more than a few of them. Another strategy, I'm thinking, would be moving aggressively, and counting on your shooty bits to eliminate a lot of their shooty bits - Such as deep-striking scourge with Splinter Cannons to clear out a TF cannon, or similar (substituting units appropriate to whatever faction you're playing). Of course, even if you are magic, and you get within 1" of the other unit without any casualties, you still have Overwatch. Overwatch seems to me to have the most potential to be dangerous. You can hide your raiders in cover, you can pivot like a ballet dancer to stay behind LOS blocking terrain, and you can boost up 18" to be right where you need to be - but your assault unit is still going to get mulched by a 20 man Fire Warrior blob. A lot of assault units have assault grenades, thereby making charging through cover a reasonable strategy, granting you a 4+ at best. I suppose the only way to deal with that is by putting your mooks first and counting on at least a few of them to get gunned-down. Resiliency definitely seems like the hardest of the three to deal with.

Reliability seems like it would just break down into three groups of units: Tarpits, Delivery units, and Heavy Hitters. Tarpits would be basic Wyches without upgrades - just there to clog up a squad and with lucky rolls, survive, and with poor rolls, get killed. They don't need to be reliable, they just need to stall. Delivery units is something I'm trying to run right now at my FLGS, with my kitted-out Succubus leading a group of stock Wyches. The Wyches don't do jack, but they serve as expendable wounds and bubble wrap. The Succubus can deal with most things. There are definitely a few kinds of Heavy Hitters, but I would consider Assault Terminators, Wraithblades, Incubi, etc, to be heavy hitters. Sure there are some that are better against vehicles, and some that are better against GEQ/MEQ/TEQ, but overall they're units that are good when they get into melee. I think the trick with either of the three kinds of assault units is to be aware of what kind they are and positioning them accordingly. If you run your tarpit into a Tac Squad and expect it to win with flying colors or at all, then you might be disappointed.

SharkoutofWata, I'm right with you, I love assault and it's a shame that it's going to take a lot of work to make playable, and it certainly wont' ever be competitive on the same level as other things. I like your concept of doubling up on assault units. That kind of goes into target saturation, but in a much better way than just flooding the field with victims. It sounds like it forces the other player to either: A) devote all their firepower to dealing with that one spearhead, B) Kill/Wound the 'scary' unit and allow the frontmost unit to charge and tie them up, or C) Kill the frontmost unit and allow the real damage-dealer to mop up. I like that a lot.

How to make assault work:

1. Needs a 12'' move.
2. Needs a 2+sv or a decent invuln or invisibility.
3. Needs rending or AP2.

Fulfill stipulation #1 and at least 2 or 3, and you have yourself a working assault unit.

Anything less will probably work in a casual game but won't be competitive.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How to make assault work:

1. Needs a 12'' move.
2. Needs a 2+sv or a decent invuln or invisibility.
3. Needs rending or AP2.

Fulfill stipulation #1 and at least 2 or 3, and you have yourself a working assault unit.

Anything less will probably work in a casual game but won't be competitive.

That's certainly true, but you can't necessarily add those things to assault units (barring invisibility), they just come stock. We're all on the same page, there are certainly some assault units that are viable and competitive, and there some that even when played well are just going to have a place in casual games. But that's what I meant in my first post when I mentioned that an assault-based army won't be as viable - I know that a lot of assault units aren't great, but I'm not looking for reasons to leave them at home, I'm looking for ways to make the most of them when I do use them. I'm really set on finding an excuse to bring my assaulty units to the game without having to assume that every battle I go into is going to be a loss.

It is a good list that I'll try to work from, and you do bring up a good point with Rending. I'd completely forgotten about Beastmasters in all these. They seem a bit overlooked in the new codex, what with all the changes to other stuff, but they're still Beasts, and now you don't even have to take a Beastmaster to make the squad, you can just take a bucket of Razorwing flocks. So that would satisfy your 12" move and your Rending requirements.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How to make assault work:

1. Needs a 12'' move.
2. Needs a 2+sv or a decent invuln or invisibility.
3. Needs rending or AP2.

Fulfill stipulation #1 and at least 2 or 3, and you have yourself a working assault unit.

Anything less will probably work in a casual game but won't be competitive.

How would you rate stuff like Nurgle Princes?
They sure do lack some defence (unless they fly, or have allies with biomancy or grimoire), but they can kill ANYTHING, very fast.

they have a 2+ cover save even in the open so i would say their defence is quite fine unless you have ignore cover coming your way

You know, all things considered assault is pretty strong in my meta, but I've got something of a weird meta. There's almost no IKs/supers in general and almost no flyers, which means big standard assault units can actually work. Which is great cus I run trukkloads of ard boyz all the time.

I play exclusively assault armies, also pretty much exclusively at a GT or highly competitive RTT level.

Assault is definitely not dead, in fact, it is the solution to many of the meta's problems. I don't remember the last time I have lost to Tau, and in the last year I have faced them at least twice a month at qualifiers and tournies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do agree on assault units needing a 12 inch move (Only exception is green tide IMO), as well as something to make it excessively durable. You also need some sort of stipulation that makes it so you can't be tarpitted/locked.

In terms of the most competitive units (wraithknights, Imperial Knights, houndstar, screamers, wraiths, and scarabs (?). Have at least 2 of the above. With the last being much more rare nowadays.

the_scotsman wrote:You know, all things considered assault is pretty strong in my meta, but I've got something of a weird meta. There's almost no IKs/supers in general and almost no flyers, which means big standard assault units can actually work. Which is great cus I run trukkloads of ard boyz all the time.

My Meta, in my limited time playing at my FLGS, seems to be similar, which is great. If it was more competitive I probably wouldn't be able to even consider running Wyches.

Lord Commissar wrote:I play exclusively assault armies, also pretty much exclusively at a GT or highly competitive RTT level.

Assault is definitely not dead, in fact, it is the solution to many of the meta's problems. I don't remember the last time I have lost to Tau, and in the last year I have faced them at least twice a month at qualifiers and tournies.

That's good hear, do you mind sharing some of your tactics? I also didn't mean to come across as though I thought assault was worthless - only that it seems to be the general consensus that there are better options, usually. As I said before, I play Dark Eldar, so it's hard to justify taking Wyches over Kabalites or similar. What faction do you play? Also, do you find any use in DS'ing assault units? Or is that pretty much as worthless as it seems?

I definitely don't have much of an issue finding AP 2 or rending in my assault units, what with Razorwing Flocks, Archite Glaive Succubi, Incubi, and Reavers - it's the Resiliency part that gets me. Do you think having Razorwings or Reavers in a flanking position to troubleshoot hard targets when they get engaged is a good idea? That way, the mooks eat Overwatch and combat while the AP2/Rending damage dealers charge in for HoW and cleanup.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How to make assault work:

1. Needs a 12'' move.
2. Needs a 2+sv or a decent invuln or invisibility.
3. Needs rending or AP2.

Fulfill stipulation #1 and at least 2 or 3, and you have yourself a working assault unit.

Anything less will probably work in a casual game but won't be competitive.

QFT.

Assault is still occurs in pretty much every game I play, and is often very decisive. There are just fewer units who can successfully do it now.

Unfortunately OP the biggest problem is not assault, but with wyches, they are just so awful at what they are supposed to do.

They are not durable, slow, require a transport (which are not durable either) and flounder vs high toughness and high armour saves - these unfortunately make up more than 50% of the armies in the game.

With the removal of haywire grenades they are now completely useless against all vehicles, unless you got a +1 str on combat drugs or they survive long enough for furious charge to kick in.

All of this goodness for 10 points a model.....

So all things considered: you have a slow, fairly expensive unit, which hits like wet noodles and falls over in a strong breeze.

The succubus is another failure of a model. At least it has better WS than 4, unlike the wyches, but it still suffers from pathetic strength and weapon choices.
Of all the options, the agoniser is the best. This will at least allow her to take on some tactical squads.
Unfortunately 2+ save units and vehicles still squash her. 1 haywire grenade per turn is at least something though.

I believe with DE your best unit for assault would be grotesques. Whether they are in a raider or WWP they at least have the strength and toughness to be more of a threat than wyches.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How to make assault work:

snip

QFT.

Assault is still occurs in pretty much every game I play, and is often very decisive. There are just fewer units who can successfully do it now.

Unfortunately OP the biggest problem is not assault, but with wyches, they are just so awful at what they are supposed to do.

They are not durable, slow, require a transport (which are not durable either) and flounder vs high toughness and high armour saves - these unfortunately make up more than 50% of the armies in the game.

With the removal of haywire grenades they are now completely useless against all vehicles, unless you got a +1 str on combat drugs or they survive long enough for furious charge to kick in.

All of this goodness for 10 points a model.....

So all things considered: you have a slow, fairly expensive unit, which hits like wet noodles and falls over in a strong breeze.

The succubus is another failure of a model. At least it has better WS than 4, unlike the wyches, but it still suffers from pathetic strength and weapon choices.
Of all the options, the agoniser is the best. This will at least allow her to take on some tactical squads.
Unfortunately 2+ save units and vehicles still squash her. 1 haywire grenade per turn is at least something though.

I believe with DE your best unit for assault would be grotesques. Whether they are in a raider or WWP they at least have the strength and toughness to be more of a threat than wyches.

That's fair, Wyches are pretty much garbage. They're great melee tarpits, from my experience. They also make a good delivery vector for my Succubus/Archon/Killy HQ. That being said, I was mainly using them as an example because they're so bad. So if I could get them into assault with little-no losses, then I could probably get anything into assault. My end goal is to run Reavers, some of those snazzy new Harly jetbikes, and some harlies. In more casual games, I'd love to run Lelith, but she's pretty damn expensive for being so bad, so that's a tough one to justify.

I do have to disagree with you on the Succubus, though. The Archite Glaive is only 5 points more than the Agoniser, grants AP3 for killing MEQ, and if you sacrifice an attack bumps it up to AP2 with +1 Strength. A kitted Archon is certainly much better, but I don't think the Succubus is completely worthless.

Also, I agree with you on the grotesques. They're probably my best melee option, but they're incredibly expensive. I think they work best in a Covens formation.

My footslogging choppaboyz are doing pretty good and last time i've checked they do't have 12 movement or any armor other than 6+.
It's incorrect to say that assault is all about X, Y, etc. It's more complex than that. Often i find myself winning games with assault units without having killed a thing in mellee.

You don't need to be able to beat the Terminators on the other side of the table.
You just need to be able to beat the poor sod standing in front of you.

Assaulting with Dire Avengers or Swooping Hawks or Fire Warriors or even sniper scouts have all done great things for me. Assault needn't need to be your only goal, but can be a nice little trump card when you line things up right.

Even a melee unit like an Ork mob doesn't do well when assaulted by too many Dire Avengers + Fire Dragons + Hawks.

This is where orks shine through. We can take large blobs in a sturdy transport (Battlewagon carries 20, and is 14/12/10 open topped) we just recently got an option for "throwaway" characters to absord challenges with the mek, and with the ability to give FnP to a whole squad, things can get nefarious. Mix in a nob with a power klaw for AP2 killing power, and what you end up with is a unit that is reliably terrible to deal with. I used to fear Knights, but now with some new dex toys, I was able to krump 3 in 2 games due to:
Mobility in the tough transport
Swinging PKs in my unit
oodles of spare wounds (boys) to LoS hits.

A lot of the current CC meta is built around character delivery and forcing target priority.
Case study:
In the above situation regarding the knights, i was playing the same player both games. In the first, he focused on a blob of boys with a warboss and a nob in it. He feared the extra wounds, and universal killing power of the group. In doing so, he ignored a unit of tankbustas (7 plus MA big mek) that got close. The boys took siome bad casualties, but since the bustas were ignored, I was able to get the assault. Even with his StrD attacks, he could only mulch three or so(which he did). Long story short, people get mad when you melta the face off a knight turn one.

Game two:
Same lists, same tactic, but he fielded two knights instead of one. This time, he focused on the bustas, and ignored the boys blob. Turn two and three, and the boys are chasing his knights around, and ultimately they finished both of them (each was about half-dead, but still).

In each case he was forced to pick what he thought was the scariest unit. By diversifying my CC "tricks", the idea is to force your opponent into making choices he doesnt want to make, and isnt happy with. Assault requires a lot more thinking than shooting does, and knowing how your units work and their intended roles is a key component.
Example:
Orks are bullies. They are designed to kill the thing thats sliiightly less dangerous than they are. MANZ are not for walkers or termies(their equivalents). Insead, they bully basic troop choices and vehicles. But when I play people who primarily use SM, they try to use them as elite-hunters, chasing walkers and such like, as terminators do. And they gdet wrecked. No ++ sucks, but in trade they get 2 wounds. So, anything that has ap2 and can double T4 wrecks them. But against a blob of guys, with maaayyybbeee a CCW upgrade? Sheer gold. Even with a power axe, its not a good ratio of losses.

And one last priority: be the one to assault.

I don't play DE, but looking at the codex it seems clear to me that the designers did not envision Wyches (and Wracks for that matter) being on the board before turns 2-3. They're supposed to come in when PfP has already advanced down the chart, deep striking in on Venoms and Raiders and WWPs with FnP and Furious Charge already active.

Alcibiades wrote:
I don't play DE, but looking at the codex it seems clear to me that the designers did not envision Wyches (and Wracks for that matter) being on the board before turns 2-3. They're supposed to come in when PfP has already advanced down the chart, deep striking in on Venoms and Raiders and WWPs with FnP and Furious Charge already active.

I'm not sure about that. FC doesn't actually change Wracks' damage output against most opponents. It only brings them to S4, but they need S5 to actually get rerolls to-wound against T4.

 koooaei wrote:
My footslogging choppaboyz are doing pretty good and last time i've checked they do't have 12 movement or any armor other than 6+.
It's incorrect to say that assault is all about X, Y, etc. It's more complex than that. Often i find myself winning games with assault units without having killed a thing in mellee.

Agreed. Hell, in my last game against Necrons, he was using mostly Destroyers and I couldn't get close with a foot slogging Mega Boss with 25 Boyz. So instead, they kept moving up and holding the mid field, granting me control over 4 of the 6 objective markers ALL GAME because he couldn't punch through my Warboss' rerollable armor with Lucky Stikk. He didn't even want to risk TRYING to fight it, he just...shot at it. And did nothing but maybe kill a few Boyz when he angled himself to avoid my Warboss, while my Kanz/Dreads ran rampant on his Arks that got foolishly close while my Grots all happily camped back objectives.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/01/21/assault-is-not-dead/ this here article REALLY helped me with my flesh tearers to be able to tear the enemy a new one
definitely worth checking it out

Something else that I've found effective is utilizing a Maximum Threat Overload type of list (often combined with effective reserves manipulation). The idea is that you present your opponents more threats than they can reliably handle. It doesn't need to be all assault units either. If you have a priority shooting unit that the opponent wants to focus but has assault unit(s) bearing down, you get a victory somewhere.

 SweaterKittens wrote:
Hey all,

Let me open with these few disclaimers: Yes, I know assault is not as strong as shooting in this edition. No, focusing on an assault-based army is not going to be as viable. And lastly, no, we won't suddenly uncover something in this thread that will somehow change the entire meta.

With that being said, I'd like to have a productive discussion on how to make the most out of assault/CQC-oriented troops (such as Wyches, melee HQ's), and making the most out of positioning and the assault phase in general. The reason I bring this up is that I've always had a soft spot for Wych Cults, and with recent addition of the Solitaire (who's rules are meds) and the gorgeous Succubus model (my hands are tied, I have to run her), I find myself using assault troops fairly often, yet being rather unsure of the best way to use them. Additionally, it appears that the meta in my FLGS is rather melee-centric. That is, four out of five times, the other guy has brought a prominent assault unit, generally featuring his HQ. Memorable choices include Corvidae in a squad of souped-up assault marines, Dark Angels bikers with hammers, assault marines with hammers, Dark Angels Assault Terminators, etc. So it seems that whether I want to make it happen or not (I do), it's going to happen.


Thus far, the only real piece of tactica I've taken away from my games is to make sure your HQ is in enough coherency to LoS several wounds to whatever delivery squad he/she is with, and pile-in in such a way that, if possible, the wounds can be allocated directly to less important squad members. Unfortunately, as I'm rather fresh to the tabletop, that's all I've been able to glean thus far. I will be looking forward to hearing my fellow Dakkite's thoughts!

My main interest in melee came from trying to shoot Wave Serpents and seeing litle return on that investment. I now firmy beleive that melee is the answer to a very large number of problems.

1. Unit sizes matter. If playing MSU, give the melee unit just enough power to kill the enemies you're likely facing in your meta and ending them in the opponents turn. Then even though weakened, they can still tie someones shooting unit up for the next two phases before dying and they can be seen as a success.
2. There aren't unlimited rounds. So when you engage in melee matters. Just because you CAN reach the enemy by turn two may not be reason enough TO do it. sometimes it is better to simply hide or reserve/deep strike assault units later in the game with the idea that you give the enemy a false sense of how long they have before they need to break for objectives and THEN tying them up, thus dooming their chances of reaching the objectives.
3. Use assaulters to pull enemies off of objectives. Make sure to angle the assaulters such that they can do this. Be watchful for people who try not to moe as much as they are supposed to when doing this as they may intentionally trail a guy behind them.
4. If an enemy assault based unit is ON an objective and you are close enough to charge, you may just allow them to stay on the objective more easily. Let them make the mistake of coming after YOU. if they dont fall for it, you've sacrificed the unit potentially, but in a close game it is sometimes more important to force the enemy into mistakes rather than hoping you might BARELY beat them in a combat that now will potentially protect them from shooting the following turn. It's really really a fine line here whether or not going in to assault is worth it. If you DO, make certain you can finish the job. If you can't, dont fruitlessly throw your unit away. See if you can make him make a mistake. The game situation will determine if this makes sense or not, but I have on occassion found some units at games end aren't impacting the game and so can do so by offering themselves up as tempting diversions.

luke1705 wrote:Something else that I've found effective is utilizing a Maximum Threat Overload type of list (often combined with effective reserves manipulation). The idea is that you present your opponents more threats than they can reliably handle. It doesn't need to be all assault units either. If you have a priority shooting unit that the opponent wants to focus but has assault unit(s) bearing down, you get a victory somewhere.

Good thinking. I think that especially with my DE, I'm going to HAVE to be in the open at some point, so target saturation will be extremely important.

Jancoran wrote:
My main interest in melee came from trying to shoot Wave Serpents and seeing litle return on that investment. I now firmy beleive that melee is the answer to a very large number of problems.

1. Unit sizes matter. If playing MSU, give the melee unit just enough power to kill the enemies you're likely facing in your meta and ending them in the opponents turn. Then even though weakened, they can still tie someones shooting unit up for the next two phases before dying and they can be seen as a success.
2. There aren't unlimited rounds. So when you engage in melee matters. Just because you CAN reach the enemy by turn two may not be reason enough TO do it. sometimes it is better to simply hide or reserve/deep strike assault units later in the game with the idea that you give the enemy a false sense of how long they have before they need to break for objectives and THEN tying them up, thus dooming their chances of reaching the objectives.
3. Use assaulters to pull enemies off of objectives. Make sure to angle the assaulters such that they can do this. Be watchful for people who try not to moe as much as they are supposed to when doing this as they may intentionally trail a guy behind them.
4. If an enemy assault based unit is ON an objective and you are close enough to charge, you may just allow them to stay on the objective more easily. Let them make the mistake of coming after YOU. if they dont fall for it, you've sacrificed the unit potentially, but in a close game it is sometimes more important to force the enemy into mistakes rather than hoping you might BARELY beat them in a combat that now will potentially protect them from shooting the following turn. It's really really a fine line here whether or not going in to assault is worth it. If you DO, make certain you can finish the job. If you can't, dont fruitlessly throw your unit away. See if you can make him make a mistake. The game situation will determine if this makes sense or not, but I have on occassion found some units at games end aren't impacting the game and so can do so by offering themselves up as tempting diversions.

Excellent advice, thank you! I never considered saving assault units to tie up late-game objective grabbers. Especially with PFP that'll make them a lot scarier anyway. Also, pulling people off of objectives is genius. I'd have to position just right, and hopefully not be close enough to just move into base contact with every unit before they Pile-in.

ThatSwellFella wrote:https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/01/21/assault-is-not-dead/ this here article REALLY helped me with my flesh tearers to be able to tear the enemy a new one
definitely worth checking it out

That's a great article, thanks!

Melevolence wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
My footslogging choppaboyz are doing pretty good and last time i've checked they do't have 12 movement or any armor other than 6+.
It's incorrect to say that assault is all about X, Y, etc. It's more complex than that. Often i find myself winning games with assault units without having killed a thing in mellee.

Agreed. Hell, in my last game against Necrons, he was using mostly Destroyers and I couldn't get close with a foot slogging Mega Boss with 25 Boyz. So instead, they kept moving up and holding the mid field, granting me control over 4 of the 6 objective markers ALL GAME because he couldn't punch through my Warboss' rerollable armor with Lucky Stikk. He didn't even want to risk TRYING to fight it, he just...shot at it. And did nothing but maybe kill a few Boyz when he angled himself to avoid my Warboss, while my Kanz/Dreads ran rampant on his Arks that got foolishly close while my Grots all happily camped back objectives.

That's pretty impressive, and some good food for thought.

Alcibiades wrote:I don't play DE, but looking at the codex it seems clear to me that the designers did not envision Wyches (and Wracks for that matter) being on the board before turns 2-3. They're supposed to come in when PfP has already advanced down the chart, deep striking in on Venoms and Raiders and WWPs with FnP and Furious Charge already active.

I'm really wanting to run Null Deployment DE, but my biggest concern with DS'ing dedicated assault troops is that: A) they have a turn where they can't do much (Wyches firing splinter pistols), or worse, can't do anything (no ranged weapons), B) if they're within move-charge range, they're probably in range to get shot to pieces, and C) Trying to finagle assault troops in range seems like you'll be at the mercy of DS'ing mishaps, and potentially losing your good assault units. A and B seem like the normal dangers of the assault, and can be dealt with by using many of the tactics that people have mentioned. C seems like it'll be a little tougher to work with, but it'll probably just take practice.

 vipoid wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
I don't play DE, but looking at the codex it seems clear to me that the designers did not envision Wyches (and Wracks for that matter) being on the board before turns 2-3. They're supposed to come in when PfP has already advanced down the chart, deep striking in on Venoms and Raiders and WWPs with FnP and Furious Charge already active.

I'm not sure about that. FC doesn't actually change Wracks' damage output against most opponents. It only brings them to S4, but they need S5 to actually get rerolls to-wound against T4.

Sure, I was thinking Wyches more with that one.

Anyway, I think the codex was designed as a "staggered" one, with ujits starting on the table that are tougher and then the squishier units coming in later after PfP has built up. So Eyches are designed under the assumption that the will have FNP and possibly FC by the time that they actually get into tha battle.


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Damn so many typoes


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 SweaterKittens wrote:


I'm really wanting to run Null Deployment DE, but my biggest concern with DS'ing dedicated assault troops is that: A) they have a turn where they can't do much (Wyches firing splinter pistols), or worse, can't do anything (no ranged weapons), B) if they're within move-charge range, they're probably in range to get shot to pieces, and C) Trying to finagle assault troops in range seems like you'll be at the mercy of DS'ing mishaps, and potentially losing your good assault units. A and B seem like the normal dangers of the assault, and can be dealt with by using many of the tactics that people have mentioned. C seems like it'll be a little tougher to work with, but it'll probably just take practice.

Looking at the DE codex and thinking "what would I do if I were a game designer?" I see that there are 3 basic "army ideas" -- wych cult, kabal, coven. All of them of squishy troops (relatively squishy for covens) who however cwill receive Feel No Pain later the game. All of these troops also have access to deep-striking transports.

All three of these armies also have access to a "tough" unit that either does not get Feel No Pain or starts off with it (Cult of the Archon for Kabal, Engines of Pain/Grotesques for Cover, Beast Packs for Wych Cults), meaning that these units are capable of functioning effectively at the beginning of the game.

Which makes me think that the designers envisioned the "tough" units starting on the table, and the others just hanging out on the sidelines, basking in the yummy yummy pain being generated on the battlefield until a reasonably PfP level kicks in.

I do have to agree that wyches benefit from patience. The Power From Pain chart does seem like it was aimed right at the Wyches really.

Reserve Manipulation isnt expensive though. An Autarch and a couple Jetbike uits can do a LOT for your strategic outlook if assaulting with them is your goal.

 Jancoran wrote:
I do have to agree that wyches benefit from patience. The Power From Pain chart does seem like it was aimed right at the Wyches really.
.

Right, I think they are priced not based on "melee-oriented Kroot" that they are at the start but as the "super Ork Boy" that they become later.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I do have to agree that wyches benefit from patience. The Power From Pain chart does seem like it was aimed right at the Wyches really.
.

Right, I think they are priced not based on "melee-oriented Kroot" that they are at the start but as the "super Ork Boy" that they become later.

Turn 4 Witches

 Jancoran wrote:
I do have to agree that wyches benefit from patience. The Power From Pain chart does seem like it was aimed right at the Wyches really.

Reserve Manipulation isnt expensive though. An Autarch and a couple Jetbike uits can do a LOT for your strategic outlook if assaulting with them is your goal.

I plan on taking an Autarch for my Null Deployment, but unfortunately, beyond that, there's not a whole lot available for reserve manipulation. If you go the route of late-game Wyches, I think you really need to have good control over when your reserves come in. It's unfortunate that Labyrinthine Cunning is random and not something you can choose. Other than an Aegis with a comms relay (which would be pretty worthless outside of the reserve re-rolls), I think that's all DE/Eldar/Corsairs have in the way of it.

I like to run my DW Knights, mainly because I spent so long painting the bloody things!

They can be very effective assaulting from inside a LR. But that does make them fething expensive! Does succeed in making them maneuverable though. Plus the SS makes them durable and the maces are handy in a fight.